Mongoose Claw
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot ---; Price 4,800gp; Weight ---
DESCRIPTION
This small, preserved claw of a mongoose is fastened tightly to a thin leather cord. Once per day, whenever you would roll to enter initiative, you may activate the mongoose claw instead as a free action. For that initiative check you are treated as having an initiative count equal to one higher than the highest rolled of all initial participants. Actions that change an initiative count, such as readying and delaying, still work normally. If two or more mongoose claws are activated for the same initiative check, each takes effect and the result is a tie; resolve the initiative order normally.
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, cat's grace; Cost 2,400gp
Now that is pretty freaking powerful. Every single rogue would want one to make sure opponents are flat footed. I think it is overpowered and undercosted.
Plus, I dont like the name.
That said, it is unusual and different and people would want it (because it is too powerful). It is certainly better than just a +2 to initiative boring item. Wondrous items are supposed to play with the rules, so I like this to some degree.
On the fence, but leaning to reject because I think it is undercosted for what it does. It essentially adds a 20 or more to your initiative roll and no one can beat you. Seriously, pick the fastest, highest level monster you can imagine and this thing lets you beat it in initiative no matter what. Just for having a mongoose foot on a cord. I dont like that.
Kobold Press
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It's GOT to be undercosted; it's better than Improved Initiative, but it does have a ton of utility and an original premise.
Just because everyone wants one doesn't necessarily mean it's overpowered, though. Initiative by itself affects a single round, so this isn't that much bigger than, say, truestrike.
Inclined to keep, because it has big ideas and decent flavor. And I like the name.
I would have preferred a "roll twice, pick the best" mechanic, that's already in the game ... absolutes like "you're better than anyone else" just open an infinite set of doors of one-upmanship--quickling's foot beats mongoose claw, dragon claw beats quickling's foot, time elemental heart beats dragon claw....
Reject.
That's the sort of thing that should be fixed in design so the developer doesn't have to fix it. ;)
I've come around on this. I dont love it. But I see Sean's point. Here is what I am going to do.
There is clearly not a consensus here, but I am going to hit keep. If either Sean or you want to golden ticket it, you can. It certainly has mojo, and I respect that.
Kept.
aka Robert G. McCreary
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I like the name. I was expecting a variant hand of the mage or something, and was pleasantly surprised otherwise. I disagree with our esteemed judges that it's too powerful. It is powerful, yes, but it only works once per day. Do I use it now, or save it for the BBEG? It's incredibly useful, but you have to choose the best time to use it. Chances are, the dice are going to roll this way at least once anyways, so why not have an item that rolls it that way for you? Sean's idea of a "roll twice, pick the best" mechanic is a good one, but then it becomes a luck item, and we already have things in the game that do that (Luck domain, anyone?). This is new, fresh, and it's got flavor. Heck, I'd even say it's got moxy!
I might have used haste as prerequisite instead of cat's grace, but that's the only problem I see with it. Like it!
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Congratulations on making it into RPG Superstar 2009!
For what it's worth, I like the name. I like the concept, and it's more fun than a flat bonus item (though an item riffing on mongooses and their battles with cobras a la Riki-Tiki-Tavi would be neat) or a "reroll initiative" item. I would have been happier with a "declare 20 on your initiate roll" mechanic.
But the idea of it being an "I win automatically" item? That kind of gives me the ick, especially with what Sean has already said about the one-upsmanship of items. The way this is written, it doesn't matter if you are facing off against the Avatar of the God of Quickness with a 100 Dexterity and Super-Duper-Ultra-Improved Initiative and you are a paraplegic kobold leper with a sack full of bowling balls strapped to your head; if you have a mongoose claw then you win initiative, period. Bleah.
On the subject of it being usable just once a day, because the item is so cheap you can buy as many as you need. Use one, take it off, put another one on. In a typical 3rd Ed. game, you rarely have more than a half-dozen encounters a day, and probably only half of those at most are threatening enough to really compel you to NEED to win initiative. Metagame-wise, buy 3 of these and you can essentially declare victory in every encounter that matters for the rest of your career.
A rule that you have to attune the item for 24 hours before it works would control this kind of abuse, but the cost probably still needs to go up.
Summary: I like the idea but I'm less excited about the implementation. Absolute "I win" items = not cool. But, if the idea is good enough or original enough, you can get by. I think you'll need more to CLAW your way to the top!
Contributor, RPG Superstar
aka Leandra Christine Schneider
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Wohoo! An initiative item. Having played a Iajutsu Master for 15+ levels, I think I've researched nearly every initiative cheat out there. That said, I know of one item that comes close to this, the "Ring of Anticipation" (Drow of the Underdark) which (in additon to some skill boosts) allows to roll twice for initiative and take the better roll. All the time. For 6000gp.
In my opinion, the ring is one of the most broken items out there, because initiative becomes crucial to survival in higher level play. That one round matters a lot, since many effects can kill in this space of time.
But back to the claw (and to why I mentioned the ring).
On one hand, I am fairly sure that the claw is way too good too. It is slotless and increases in value as the game progresses. On the other hand, if you use the ring as a baseline for initiative boosting items, the claw is limited and fair-priced.
Because of this predicament, I won't be doing my usual positive/negative thing now (although I do like the formatting), and instead base my final opinion on whether we take the ring as a baseline or not. In any case, I welcome you to RPG Superstar 09!
After reviewing all other items: Ring of Anticipation is in
You got a fair item there that, while not having that much of a background, is an alternative to one of the strongest magical equipments out there. Although I think the activation of the claw should be an immediate action. I’d like to see more of your stuff in the future.
After reviewing all other items: Ring of Anticipation is out
The item you propose is grows stronger and stronger as the game advances to higher levels of play. Combats get shorter and the value of initiative increases, while it becomes possible for a PC to own a few Mongoose Claws without expending much of his expected wealth.
Ultimately, this wondrous item might become a requirement instead of an asset, twisting the balance of the game seriously.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4
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This is where my house-rules begin to become incompatible with (or, at least, set into friction with) larger-scale play: I run round-to-round re-rolls on Initiative, like in ShadowRun, Savage Worlds & White Wolf. I do this so instinctively, in fact, that I ran combats that way for my Pathfinder Society sessions while at GenCon.
Yes, I asked my players before play if it was okay, and YES, they liked it.
Now, I could sit here and argue the merits of round-to-round Initiative re-rolls all day long. In fact, I just might! It makes combats more free-from & cinematic, it emphasizes team-work & party communication, and it makes PCs with low Initiative (-1 or more from bad Dex., -6 from the Unreactive Flaw out of Unearthed Arcana) very different combatants from high-Initiative character who just can't seem to roll worth a crap that first round.
Over the course of multiple rounds with multiple re-rolls, a better raw Initiative score will show its value - and a low score will begin to weigh down a PC who can hit a 20 on the first round, but not four 20s in a row.
The item in question is NOT broken - or, at least, not AS broken - when coupled with a round-to-round re-roll on initiative. Sure, you can get that surprise in the first round ... but the next round, you better be able to keep up, or the mooks you dropped damage on just then get TWO rounds of actions on you: once at the end of round 1, and then again at the top of round 2.
And, yes, YOU get to go first - but against the +24 Initiative Primal Air Elemental, for example, your party is going to be waiting around until after it completes a full round of actions, which probably means it attacks YOU. Then, everyone rolls for initiative - the Elemental goes first, then the rest of the party (probably including you, if you're not dead yet). How useful is the Mongoose Claw, honestly?
Now, I dig this item. It's out there and different & I know a whole TON of players who would love nothing more than to occasionally slap down the "I win" card on Initiative - and for a single round, I think it's balanced. As Jason notes, it probably needs a "24 hours after" description, and giving it a proper slot would prevent the "I own OVER 9000 Mongoose Claws, and thus always win!" scenario ... but this has some cool design elements. For instance, I like that you activate the item instead of rolling for Initiative - you don't get to roll & then go "Oh, well, a 2 - I'll activate my Mongoose Claw & skip to the top."
This is a gambling man's item, and I like me a gamble every once in a while. As my mom always says: without some risk & some weirdness, D&D is just fancy checkers.
Anyway: I honestly cannot comment on how this item would (or would NOT) be appropriate to a Initiative-Cycle game, because I haven't played in a game that implemented that mechanic in several years.
Still, the Mongoose Claw is fun, and I'd like to see this item get some use in my game. Congratulations, and I look forward to seeing more as Superstar! continues!
I like it! I agree that it potentially opens up the possibility for one-upmanship, but it's neat enough that I can't give it much flak for that.
A rule that you have to attune the item for 24 hours before it works would control this kind of abuse...
Heh, the truth is I realized that exact thing about an hour after I hit the submit button. I'm surprised you didn't hear the smack of my hand on my forehead since it was so loud.
Still, I want to thank the judges for selecting me to participate in RPG Superstar 2009. I am honoured to have been chosen and look forward to the next round.
In addition to the 24 hour attnunement perhaps place this in the neck slot? I've always felt most amulets belong there anyway.
I like the item, for many of the reasons Boomer stated. It's a one shot, you activate it instead of rolling, and you've most likely if you do any serious damage, put yourself at the head of the next to be hit parade.
And I love mongeese :)
Congratulations! One thing to think about with your future submissions is its impact on high level play. I'm sorry, but I have to second some of the nay sayers on this one. I think at high level play this item becomes way more powerful than its price. Winning initiative is important when you're a rogue, but it's priceless when you're a high level mage with battlefield control spells or tactical nukes. The fact that players at very high levels would have several of these makes it one of those essential items that end up killing flavor rather than being flavorful.
Unfortunately, although I applaud you for your success, I can't really get behind this item. It invalidates too much material to be reasonable in play. Is it fair to have a single item that automatically wins initiative against someone who's taken prestige classes, gotten equipment and feats to boost their initiative, pumped their Dex, etc? I know my players would loathe me if I had a villain use this against them, because it feels too much like DM fiat. "I win. Period."
Also, what happens if two people use it at the same time? (Answer: the universe EXPLODES!)
A couple questions...
Wolf's comment above that initiative affects a single round - did he typo, and mean a single encounter? I thought the rolled initiative was set for the entire encounter?
I'll freely admit that I still haven't fully read through all of the PFRPG stuff, and am still operating in 3.5 mode, so this might be covered in the Beta release, but as far as being an "I win" item, we're still operating under an assumption of multiple encounters per day, right? Obviously, not all encounters are initiative-requiring, but assuming that 2+ are, and this only works once per day, I don't see it as being bad, at all.
Two people using a claw at the same time was addressed in the item description, was it not?
Far too powerful, and though I see where you were going with the name, the name itself didn't in any way evoke the item's purpose before I read the description. The name made sense in retrospect, not from the start.
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7
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I think the balance might be basing it off of a higher level spell, haste comes to mind, but that would only be a 1 level difference.
having it only have 1 charge per day balances it more as well.
The surprise strike rogue ability already lets rogues have flat-footed opponents during the first round, so this doesn't help them quite as much.
I like this a lot, I'd use haste as the pre-req spell and base the cost off of it. That would work for me. Snagged, it's in my game.
Every player would want one of those - this item gives a benefit unlike any I've seen in a D&D game, and that certainly raises eyebrows. Any class of any level will see this as a great asset, and I can't blame them - having the upper hand in the first round gives you a lot of useful things to do.
I can see why this Claw would make a high DEX, carefully thought out character jaded. But on the other hand, a minor tweak and this item might be among the best gifts a mid-level party would receive. I like your concept!
I think that basing it off Foresight (9th level spell) or Moment of Prescience (8th level spell) are the only other two options. Basing it off those might severely up the price and availability, which would alleviate my concerns a bit. Of course, then it's an item which virtually no one can get...
I'm not sure if I'm just getting cranky because its late or what.
I can't believe no one else seems to have had a problem that this item doesn't have a slot requirement. Just having this little charm on your person grants you the ability to go first in one encounter each day. How exactly do you 'activate' this pocket charm?
On the upside, the writing is pretty good.
Mongoose Claw...
Cat's grace? Initiative?
Anyway.
Wow, man, this is like an item a fighter of mine had when my brother DMed way back, except it was a dried gecko on a leather thong and you could spider climb. My brother had the fortune of not having to name his....
Dried Gecko of Wall Climbing?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
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A big thumbs down for being overpowered. With that out of the way, I do like an init item that isn't just a bonus. If I were trying to fix this in development, I'd probably keep some variant on the acting first ability, but return the user to their proper place in the next round. So you can get in that oh-so important lightning strike, but you'll likely have a lag in the order afterwards.
Wow,
First of all, I want to thank everyone who left some feedback for me, I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. That said, I suppose I should explain a little bit about what I was thinking.
Like I mentioned earlier, the "24 hour attuning" was a slip on my part. I completely agree it should be in there and I kick myself constantly for forgetting to include it.
As for the power, I really didn't think it was all that much. Rogues who favour their sneak attack in the first round are generally going to have high initiative modifiers anyway. In regards to high level play, I've never thought a wizard who lucked out on their initiative roll and went first was all that game breaking, and to me that is all this item really does; gives an advantage during the 1st round of combat.
As for the mechanics, believe me when I say I was torn between picking something a little simpler but "boring" like flat bonuses or something a little more flashy but "clunky" in terms of the rules. Obviously I went for flash and I am glad the judges saw my intent. For me, this item is no different than say, a paladin's Aura of Courage ability which let them "auto-win" their Will save vs Fear effects, or a monk's Purity of Body or Diamond Body which let them "auto-win" their Fortitude saves vs disease and poison.
For price, I compared the item to boots of speed. For 12,000gp you get 10 extra attacks at your highest attack bonus per day. I didn't think the mongoose claw was on par with that so I chose cat's grace instead. The reason I made it slot-less was to increase the price since even I thought it would be too cheap otherwise.
In the end, I just wanted to give folks some insight into my thought process. Again, I want to thank everyone for their comments - even the "nay sayers" since constructive criticism is so important in things like this. You have given me invaluable insight to take with me into the next round.
Thanks
I see you've already addressed the issues that I have with this item, namely that "I go first" is a bit too powerful at high levels, especially at the low, low cost of this item. I also don't like the name very much, I just don't think there's enough of a connection between a mongoose and "I go first." What if it also made you immune to poison, or gave you a bonus to hit against reptiles? I'm not sure. I see a lot of potential here, to my knowledge there aren't any mongoose-theme items out there, but I think this one needs some refinement.
I can see where you went with this now that I read your additional comments. But at higher levels, this item could see potential abuse, because who wins initiative can mean a lot when high-level characters have access to time stop or other powerful effects that alter outcomes of a battle very quickly.
I know wondrous items are meant to break the rules of the game sometime, but for this one, I just think it's a rule shouldn't be messed with. Giving bonuses to initiative is okay. But auto-wins on that are a bit different than auto-wins versus fear, poison, or disease. They have immunities for all those things. But immunity from your opponent potentially going first doesn't feel right to me.
Regardless, you made the Top 32. Make the most of it in future rounds. And best of luck...
My two-cents,
--Neil
As Clinton B. mentioned, this item would be balanced in an initiative rolled every round kinda game. But, in the usual rules (roll once at start of combat) this is quite powerful. You could basically use it every time you are fighting a "boss" encounter. I don't know, I kind of like the item, but it doesn't have a lot of flavor in my opinion.
Still, its not too bad considering you can only use it 1/day if you only have ONE, but the thing is...you could switch out the used one, and put on a fresh one in between combats if you have a munchkin group of players. They are probably too cheaply costed for that reason alone. I would definitely make it "roll twice, take better result" or even "reroll 1 initiative check"
Congrats on top 32!
I like the idea, though maybe not the full force of it. Perhaps instead of "1/day you go first period", you could make it so you activate it as a free action and then go first on the next round of initiative, taking your previous spot in the initiative order the following round.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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Hmmm. This doesn't do anything for me. I like connecting the mongoose to the Initiative win, but I hate "I win" mechanics. Destined to be combined with something else to make trouble for the campaign. Also, no provision that you can only benefit from one per day.
WHat about when someone gains surprise against you? What about combats kicked off by another player's action?
The item itself has a semicool name but to me, an autowin on Initiative doesn't strike me as good design.
One thing I appreciate, though. The claw raises your Init to just above the rest,instead of declaring you a winner. That way, later in the round, actions like delaying or holding don't get upset by the rule.
But that's not enough to make the item great in my opinion.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka JoelF847
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Overall, I like this item. I have to agree that it's a bit cheap, especially for high level play, and the attunement (or a mention that using multiple mongoose claws in a day either doesn't work or puts stress on a person and does Dex drain or something) is a needed fix. It does seem odd not needing the neck slot based on the description.
I'm looking forward to your villain in round 2.
What happens if two opponents in the same combat have these?
From the item description:
"If two or more mongoose claws are activated for the same initiative check, each takes effect and the result is a tie; resolve the initiative order normally."
I'd imagine that you'd treat the situation the same as if two people tie for high initiative - they roll off.
Just because everyone wants one doesn't necessarily mean it's overpowered, though. Initiative by itself affects a single round, so this isn't that much bigger than, say, truestrike.
I would disagree on the premise that how actions unfold in that first round can, and often do, set the tenor for an entire combat as that's when bottlenecks are created, battlefield control is often established, and occasionally key foes are neutralized. I absolutely guarantee that not only every rogue, but every member of the party would have one of these and they'd just rotate who used one. Battle against meaty opponents? The mage or rogue goes first. Battle against undead? The priest throws down. Battle against spellcasters? The fighter or archer goes first.
This item would have cracked open RPGA's Living Greyhawk play for about two months and then been banished. It ensures that the party will always have tactical advantage. Combine it with a belt of battle (since it doesn't say what sort of action it is to activate) and now you're going twice before anyone else is. I need to go shower just thinking of that.
-Ben.
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Kobold Press
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Even at once per day, it's clearly unbalanced (the cost is laughable, as all the judges agreed). But it has creative spark and tries to do something in a rarely-seen sector of the rules.
It's interesting to me that everyone seems to think a single character going first is going to completely unbalance the game, though. It's not the whole party going first. I'd want revisions and playtest on this thing before publication.
We'll see how the designer does in future rounds.
Even at once per day, it's clearly unbalanced (the cost is laughable, as all the judges agreed). But it has creative spark and tries to do something in a rarely-seen sector of the rules.
It's interesting to me that everyone seems to think a single character going first is going to completely unbalance the game, though. It's not the whole party going first. I'd want revisions and playtest on this thing before publication.
We'll see how the designer does in future rounds.
Considering at the price point provided, though, the whole party would be going first, at least once a day, maybe twice. (Hmmm, +2 stat bump orrrr, 2 mongoose claws? No contest, write it in pen on your character sheet.) If the party were 5 players, then I'd expect 2 or 3 of them to be going first, and if it were at higher levels? That player would be the wizard, always.
Knowing that your wizard will always get the solid fog in place that provides battlefield control is going to make creating a tactically challenging encounter a much bigger headache for the GM.
I've seen the playtest of this item... it's the PHB2 spell nerveskitter and it pretty much ensures that battlefield is in the hands of the party wizard...who then summons a Huge Air Elemental, or dumps a solid fog, or uses another method of battlefield control. With the monsters suitably divided and partially incapacitated, the rest of the party goes into mop-up mode.
From level 1 to 6? No big deal, this isn't going to impact play too much. Once we start getting into the level 4+ spells, though, this thing would slap your encounters silly and call them Susan until you're specifically designing fights that exploit your player characters' weaknesses. It creates an arms race that no one likes.
However, Count Falconbridge is most certainly one of the better villains offered up in round 2.
-Ben.
Well here are some suggestions to make the item a bit more usable:
1. Make it usable ONLY against beasts - why would a mongoose be able to preempt things it knows nothing about?
2. You could limit the initiative score to whatever your maximum iniative score could be, so super-fast adversaries could still out-initiative, if they roll well. You could basically give an automatic 20 on the roll or, as described above, +1 on the highest, unless it meant the score was higher than 20 (plus or minus your bonuses).
Using either of the above would make the costing more accurate imho.