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Ouch.
I had not heard. I have not kept up on WizKids since they cancelled MageKnight several years ago.
OK then, switch that to no CMGs being able to survive. People do like the pre-painted minis, but they just do not seem to be able to function in a collectible format. I wonder how the new WotC monsters minis line will manage.
Heh. I'm running my players through Seven Swords of Sin, and they're about to encounter the two
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Heh. I'm running my players through Seven Swords of Sin, and they're about to encounter the two ** spoiler omitted ** on the second level. So I went into Paizo's miniatures singles catalog, only to find that DDM singles are $20 each. Ouch. I'll just print out some cardstock standees.
The ones from that set are just starting to raise in price. If you look around to some other sites, you should be able to find some sites that still have them in the $5-$10 range they were in a few months ago.
Edit: yeah that's still high for one encounter, but better than 20
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Mmm, except that Topps just shut down WizKids. (Although the WizKids leaders are trying to form a new company and gain control of the HeroClix IP).Ouch.
I had not heard. I have not kept up on WizKids since they cancelled MageKnight several years ago.
OK then, switch that to no CMGs being able to survive. People do like the pre-painted minis, but they just do not seem to be able to function in a collectible format. I wonder how the new WotC monsters minis line will manage.
my army cries because they don'tknow what else happened in that world
i also love the 2 novels of that game
It's because I'm not blaming the employee's for making a game that you don't like.Hey they choose to work there, nobody bent their arm behind their back. And if they were such pillars of all that is old school and right about D&Ds past, why didn't they leave in disgust when 4e was announced as so many of the "true" fans did?
Besides if so many of you love these poor employees so much, why didn't you keep buying WotC products so that they could stay employed. No, you selfishly decided to take your money somewhere else, when these people depended on your continued patronage. So you want to see the blame for these people getting layed off, go look in the mirror for all you people that didn't follow the brand name as the sheep you were suppose to be.
Buying WotC product would not necessarily have kept them employed. WotC could easily have chosen to pocket the money and still let staff go. In fact Hasbro is essentially obligated to do just that if its deemed to be the best choice for their share holders. Thats the nature of modern corporate capitalism.
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my army cries because they don'tknow what else happened in that world
I have several thousand of the danged things sitting around, plus their dungeon tile things, plus castle stuff, plus large figures. By raw space they take up about 1/3 of the game stuff I have stored. (Which is significantly more than my D&D collection.)
I seriously need to find a place to break out a 6,000 point army and go bugnut again.
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my army cries because they don'tknow what else happened in that worldI have several thousand of the danged things sitting around, plus their dungeon tile things, plus castle stuff, plus large figures. By raw space they take up about 1/3 of the game stuff I have stored. (Which is significantly more than my D&D collection.)
I seriously need to find a place to break out a 6,000 point army and go bugnut again.
i know the feeling, i have my figures in boxes :S 2 of them are limited edition (one of them a birthday gift from a dear friend), i also got the set for siegues, the 2 dungeon heroe sets andthe afventure (the necropolis heroe and the Empires' Villain are awesome, and the Elemental Sor... thetitan ofthe last faction of elment/spirit ceratures getting deals andcontracs with everyone
i know the feeling :S i alsoneed a spacewhere to put them... the new house is rather small and i don't have the oldtable where i could put my whole army in exibitionby faction :S
CEO
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All I can say is, if you have numbers but can't share them, why even say anything to begin with? If you don't have numbers or anything to prove by making the statement, then why say anything that makes it sound like you do?
I don't have any solid numbers. However, ICv2, our industry magazine, wrote the following their latest ICv2 Guide to Games:
"The initial core book release sold well as my initial 3.5 release did" and that sales of 4E were "no comparison to any other RPG as far as quantity sold."
That said, now that much of the initial excitement of the release has dwindled, follow-up sales have been a little less than stellar on anything other than Player's Handbooks. "Initial sell-through was about the same for 3.5, but restocks on the three core books are lower than 3.5," said one distributor. "The other books [Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide] used to sell one for ever two Player's Handbooks; now they're selling on for every five." Added Calhoun, "The numbers are nice on the accessory products, but the reorders are not as strong."
Now, this is still sorta anecdotal, since it only shows the picture through a couple of game industry distributors, and doesn't take into account the internet sales, especially through Amazon. However, it is not the same sort of verbage used when 3.0 was launched, which everyone considered a huge success and something that revived the industry.
I personally think that the real data that is going to sway 4e one way or another is the number of DDI subscribers. If that is hugely successful, the paper products won't matter anymore to Hasbro and WotC. And that is data that none of us outside of WotC will ever see unless there is a leak.
-Lisa
Really interesting information, thanks Lisa.
I'd always thought that the Monster Manual was traditionally the best seller, contrary to common-sense expectations. Is that a completely wrong idea I've been lugging around, or did that change with 4e?
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CEO
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Really interesting information, thanks Lisa.
I'd always thought that the Monster Manual was traditionally the best seller, contrary to common-sense expectations. Is that a completely wrong idea I've been lugging around, or did that change with 4e?
Nope, the PHB has always been the best seller by a longshot. When I was at WotC after we acquired TSR, I was given the task of compiling the sales history of all the D&D products ever produced. The PHB was the top seller hands down.
-Lisa
Personally, I am ashamed to have a copy of 4e on my bookshelf. And Vic, if you're reading...I'll go to my grave wanting to throttle you over getting me to spend the dough on such a steaming pile of feces~!!!
I think looking at sales figures and trying to draw conclusions without information from the major online retailers (like Amazon) is a huge mistake. Many millions more people use Amazon.com for their book purchases than they did 5 years ago, and many millions less people use offline retailers for those same purchases. I'd be willing to bet that these figures have almost nothing to do with the selling power of 4th Edition and everything to do with the fact that consumers are flocking in droves to the major online retailers offering heavily discounted pricing and free shipping.
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I think looking at sales figures and trying to draw conclusions without information from the major online retailers (like Amazon) is a huge mistake.
I disagree. Completely disregarding the observations and insight of industry professionals is the bigger mistake. If industry professionals state that compared to what they expected the current trend in sales is down, then I feel comfortable that, most likely, current sales trends are down, regardless of the absence of Amazon's numbers (which we're time and time again told offer no significant insight anyways.)
That being said, I don't think if WotC released numbers it would be of any use to us either. There are too many variables (ie - are sales down because of the anticipated loss of 'the old guard' while waiting for the 'new hotness' to increase? Current economic situation? Shift in sales because of the forthcoming holiday season?)
Finally, in my mind, the ONLY measure of a game's success is: Am I playing it? Nothing else matters. If my friends and I don't sit down and say "Let's play 4E tonight!" then the game is not a success.
PS: Under my definitions the game is a mild success. We have definitely added it to our repetoire, but I won't say it's played to the exclusion of others, and most of us don't bother with the online portions. While I do have a DDI subscription, I haven't logged on to the service for 2 months. I will definitely be cancelling because this product does NOT meet my needs as a D&D player.
All I can say is, if you have numbers but can't share them, why even say anything to begin with? If you don't have numbers or anything to prove by making the statement, then why say anything that makes it sound like you do?I don't have any solid numbers. However, ICv2, our industry magazine, wrote the following their latest ICv2 Guide to Games:
"The initial core book release sold well as my initial 3.5 release did" and that sales of 4E were "no comparison to any other RPG as far as quantity sold."
That said, now that much of the initial excitement of the release has dwindled, follow-up sales have been a little less than stellar on anything other than Player's Handbooks. "Initial sell-through was about the same for 3.5, but restocks on the three core books are lower than 3.5," said one distributor. "The other books [Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide] used to sell one for ever two Player's Handbooks; now they're selling on for every five." Added Calhoun, "The numbers are nice on the accessory products, but the reorders are not as strong."
Now, this is still sorta anecdotal, since it only shows the picture through a couple of game industry distributors, and doesn't take into account the internet sales, especially through Amazon. However, it is not the same sort of verbage used when 3.0 was launched, which everyone considered a huge success and something that revived the industry.
I personally think that the real data that is going to sway 4e one way or another is the number of DDI subscribers. If that is hugely successful, the paper products won't matter anymore to Hasbro and WotC. And that is data that none of us outside of WotC will ever see unless there is a leak.
-Lisa
Wouldn't Amazon get their stock from one or more of the distributors? Presumably they can't do an end run around the distributors? I mean if they can then that sounds like they enjoy such an unfair advantage in the market place that its the sort of thing that needs to be looked at by government organizations meant to insure that monopoly does not develop.
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CEO
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Wouldn't Amazon get their stock from one or more of the distributors? Presumably they can't do an end run around the distributors? I mean if they can then that sounds like they enjoy such an unfair advantage in the market place that its the sort of thing that needs to be looked at by government organizations meant to insure that monopoly does not develop.
Amazon buys directly from WotC's book distributor, which I believe is Random House. The reason I know this is that Amazon buys Paizo products directly from our book distributor, Diamond Books. So, yes, they get to do a runaround on the hobby distributors. However, I believe that they buy their products at roughly the same discount as they would through the hobby trade, with perhaps a few points shaved for volume discounts.
-Lisa
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I think looking at sales figures and trying to draw conclusions without information from the major online retailers (like Amazon) is a huge mistake. Many millions more people use Amazon.com for their book purchases than they did 5 years ago, and many millions less people use offline retailers for those same purchases. I'd be willing to bet that these figures have almost nothing to do with the selling power of 4th Edition and everything to do with the fact that consumers are flocking in droves to the major online retailers offering heavily discounted pricing and free shipping.
I don't think Amazon and the online retailers have as large an impact as you suspect. A recent news story on the holiday shopping season mentioned that only 7% of the retail spend for the holidays was done on line. I'm sure that figure is much larger than it was 5 years ago, but based on that, it's still not as large as brick and mortar stores.
It's quite possible that gamers disproportionally shop online, but even taking that into account, I don't think the sales patterns on specific products online would vary that much compared to the same products in a traditional store.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Now, this is still sorta anecdotal, since it only shows the picture through a couple of game industry distributors...
On the other hand, there really *are* only a couple of game industry distributors of any note. So while this doesn't provide any insight into book trade sales, it's probably a very accurate picture of sales in traditional game stores.
Personally, I am ashamed to have a copy of 4e on my bookshelf. And Vic, if you're reading...I'll go to my grave wanting to throttle you over getting me to spend the dough on such a steaming pile of feces~!!!I didn't realize I'd particularly encouraged anyone to buy 4E!
Vic, the REAL Vic who insisted that I buy this horrible stuff KNOWS who he is, and I hope he has trouble sleeping at night !!! :)
maybe ya can sell it to someother sucker. then however ya have to live with spreading it about. At lest on your shelf it can do no more harm :}
I personally think that the real data that is going to sway 4e one way or another is the number of DDI subscribers. If that is hugely successful, the paper products won't matter anymore to Hasbro and WotC. And that is data that none of us outside of WotC will ever see unless there is a leak.
Well... you can go to Alexa.com and look at the web traffic information for Wizards.com.
Sure, the Alexa FAQ says they can be inaccurate... if a site is ranked at 100,000 or more (where #1 is the highest ranking site). Wizards is ranked around 3,000 right now, so within the top 3% of accuracy.
What does the site show? Since the release of 4E, specifically after a spike the very first week of June, traffic has been dropping fairly consistently. And for the past three months, traffic has averaged about half of what it averaged prior to the release of 4E, going all the way back to August 2007, when 4E was announced. And since at least the first week of August of this past year, traffic on the site has never been higher than the lowest point it reached when there was no edition of D&D supported by Wizards.
And if that one source isn't telling enough... then look at the traffic for Gleemax.com and EnWorld.org too because the traffic patterns are almost exactly a perfect match with Wizards. Consistent traffic levels, one last spike the first week of June, and then it drops until now where the post-4E average traffic is about 50-60% of the pre-4E traffic.
(Click on the "max" button to see the traffic going back as far as possible.)
4E is the most successful RPG in existence currently, but it simply isn't the most successful one ever. Doesn't make it a "failure," but even a home run pales somewhat when it follows a grand slam.
Personally, I am ashamed to have a copy of 4e on my bookshelf. And Vic, if you're reading...I'll go to my grave wanting to throttle you over getting me to spend the dough on such a steaming pile of feces~!!!
I'm ashamed to have a 2004 road atlas on my bookshelf. I'm not ashamed to have 4th edition D&D. I'm not sure I'll get a chance to play it anytime soon, but I'm not ashamed of any of the games I own.
...Alexa.com...
Is it my imagination, or was there a thorough discussion of Alexa and how inaccurate it was in Paizo's experience on these boards? Someone with more facts in their memory or a link to discussions past might want to help me out here...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Personally, I am ashamed to have a copy of 4e on my bookshelf. And Vic, if you're reading...I'll go to my grave wanting to throttle you over getting me to spend the dough on such a steaming pile of feces~!!!I didn't realize I'd particularly encouraged anyone to buy 4E!
They must be thinking of Vic Wertz the studious mouse. Can't they see that would have been a completely different Vic Wertz?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I'm ashamed to have a 2004 road atlas on my bookshelf. I'm not ashamed to have 4th edition D&D. I'm not sure I'll get a chance to play it anytime soon, but I'm not ashamed of any of the games I own.I'm a little ashamed of owning Cyborg Commando.
I'm a little ashamed of my Abba collection.
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Chief Technical Officer
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...Alexa.com...Is it my imagination, or was there a thorough discussion of Alexa and how inaccurate it was in Paizo's experience on these boards? Someone with more facts in their memory or a link to discussions past might want to help me out here...
I think you're talking about this... but even if you assume Alexa is at least correct with *relative* numbers when you compare multiple sites over the same timeframe (and I believe that it isn't), there are still plenty of reasons why Nervous Jester's assertion isn't necessarily correct. It assumes that most of the traffic to wizards.com is D&D-related (it probably isn't); it fails to account for the fact that gleemax.com traffic would naturally go down because they announced that Gleemax is going away and people should move their stuff off it; and it assumes that the EN World visitors have maintained the same proportional interest in 4E (relative to their other EN World interests) over the same time. And of course, there's also a huge difference between page views and unit sales. Finally, even if you *could* drill down to the "hits for 4E-specific pages" level, pretty much anyone would guess that the traffic would peak at release time and dwindle from there, even if ongoing sales were gangbusters.
That said, I'm not saying that his conclusions may not be right... I'm just saying that there are many factors that complicate drawing conclusions from such data, and the accuracy and relevance of that data would be key among them.
I'm a little ashamed of my Abba collection.I'm ashamed to have a 2004 road atlas on my bookshelf. I'm not ashamed to have 4th edition D&D. I'm not sure I'll get a chance to play it anytime soon, but I'm not ashamed of any of the games I own.I'm a little ashamed of owning Cyborg Commando.
And I'm ashamed that you're ashamed of it. ABBA rocks, Fernando! ;)
They were offered one billion dollars to tour about ten years back, and for the sake of their musical legacy, declined rather than go out there dumpy and screeching. Imagine that?
Any other fans of Muriel's Wedding out there?
I'll do it for food and hotel.
LOL. Cheap date.
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Finally, even if you *could* drill down to the "hits for 4E-specific pages" level, pretty much anyone would guess that the traffic would peak at release time and dwindle from there, even if ongoing sales were gangbusters.
playdnd.com should be your target page, not wizards.com. The important thing to note is the lack of reliability of the numbers, and what do they mean.
Interestingly, Paizo ranks higher than Playdnd.com. I'll leave it at that.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I'm a little ashamed of my Abba collection.Heck, I'm ashamed of your Abba collection.
I've got a hastily photoshopped image that says otherwise.
Bjorn again.
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All I can say is, if you have numbers but can't share them, why even say anything to begin with? If you don't have numbers or anything to prove by making the statement, then why say anything that makes it sound like you do?I don't have any solid numbers. However, ICv2, our industry magazine, wrote the following their latest ICv2 Guide to Games:
"The initial core book release sold well as my initial 3.5 release did" and that sales of 4E were "no comparison to any other RPG as far as quantity sold."
That said, now that much of the initial excitement of the release has dwindled, follow-up sales have been a little less than stellar on anything other than Player's Handbooks. "Initial sell-through was about the same for 3.5, but restocks on the three core books are lower than 3.5," said one distributor. "The other books [Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide] used to sell one for ever two Player's Handbooks; now they're selling on for every five." Added Calhoun, "The numbers are nice on the accessory products, but the reorders are not as strong."
Now, this is still sorta anecdotal, since it only shows the picture through a couple of game industry distributors, and doesn't take into account the internet sales, especially through Amazon. However, it is not the same sort of verbage used when 3.0 was launched, which everyone considered a huge success and something that revived the industry.
I personally think that the real data that is going to sway 4e one way or another is the number of DDI subscribers. If that is hugely successful, the paper products won't matter anymore to Hasbro and WotC. And that is data that none of us outside of WotC will ever see unless there is a leak.
-Lisa
Thank you Lisa, that was insightful. So not a failure, but not as brisk as was probably expected. I imagine there are a number of factors that play into that fact. I think it would be hard to pin down slower follow up sales on one reason alone.
I do have a thought on the drop in buyers who purchase all three books versus just the PHB. In the past, players would likely buy those books to gain access to information pertinent to playing their characters, specifically magic items and stats for summoned monsters and animal companions. Since these things have either been eliminated (for the moment) or folded into the PHB and splatbooks there would be little need for players to buy all three core books. And since players far outnumber DMs, that drop would make sense. Now, I am sure that train of thought doesn't account for all variables, but it might be part of the situation. Some of the drop might simply be reluctance on the part of buyers. People who wanted to explore the system without sinking money into all three books.
I've got a hastily photoshopped image that says otherwise.I'm a little ashamed of my Abba collection.Heck, I'm ashamed of your Abba collection.
Nice work...I knew he looked familiar from somewhere...
Well, I know how they feel. I was laid off last year on Nov 30th. I'm a software engineer and I was working on a contract so I never expected to have permanent employment, but it sucks to be laid off right before Christmas.
Of course, the 800 pound gorilla in the room is that 4th edition has not been embraced by gamers. The very fact that Pathfinder exist and is being so well received stems form a couple of core reasons: First, the quality of the Pathfinder system and the modules is outstanding. I keep saying over and over that Pathfinder is vastly more readable than the 4e or 3.5e books.
The 4E game system is so overwhelmingly unpopular that WOTC's problems aren't all that surprising. But it's too bad to see the talent of Tweet and Noonan, who did such creative work on the 3.5 books, let go.
I really hope those who were let go can find work quickly in publishing, design, advertising and marketing firms. They're all very talented people.
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I've got a hastily photoshopped image that says otherwise.I'm a little ashamed of my Abba collection.Heck, I'm ashamed of your Abba collection.
My girlfriend has no idea why Coca-cola just burst forth from my nose...
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I'm ashamed to have a 2004 road atlas on my bookshelf. I'm not ashamed to have 4th edition D&D. I'm not sure I'll get a chance to play it anytime soon, but I'm not ashamed of any of the games I own.I'm a little ashamed of owning Cyborg Commando.
I'm not! I bought it off eBay only a couple of years ago, and I'm glad I have it.
I had an idea to run a short lunchtime campaign at work, but after I got a look at the rules.... eyaaah. I think I'll do something else.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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They were offered one billion dollars to tour about ten years back, and for the sake of their musical legacy, declined rather than go out there dumpy and screeching. Imagine that?
I suspect the fact that at least a couple of them absolutely hate each other has something to do with it.
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They were offered one billion dollars to tour about ten years back, and for the sake of their musical legacy, declined rather than go out there dumpy and screeching. Imagine that?
I suspect the fact that at least a couple of them absolutely hate each other has something to do with it.
Wow, I can't stand a lot of people. I could supress that for $250 million...
From Lisa Stevens's post:
"Initial sell-through was about the same for 3.5, but restocks on the three core books are lower than 3.5," said one distributor.
It might be worth mentioning that sell-through is NOT the same as sales. Sell-through is the percentage of books sold. If you printed 100 copies of one book and sold 60 copies, and printed 200,000 copies of another book and sold 120,000 copies, the sell-through on the two books would be the same. The SALES, however, would be significantly different.
So. Before you can draw any conclusions from the distributor's comment, you'd have to know what the initial print runs were.
Wow, I can't stand a lot of people. I could supress that for $250 million...
Or its equivalence in Belgian beer, miniatures, and Paizo products...
Edit: Wow, Elaine C. appeared above me. Care to give us any previews, Ms. Cunningham? :D
Wow, I can't stand a lot of people. I could supress that for $250 million...
They were offered one billion dollars to tour about ten years back, and for the sake of their musical legacy, declined rather than go out there dumpy and screeching. Imagine that?
I suspect the fact that at least a couple of them absolutely hate each other has something to do with it.
Yeah, I'm with Derek on this one.
For a quarter of a billion, I would bed a killer whale with trench mouth. I want you to visualize me and a lady orca together in a huge bed, me fighting to hold my breath as she goes up for an unsavory puss and herring scented soul kiss. Why did I want that for you? Sadism outlet. Thank you.
I don't have any solid numbers. However, ICv2, our industry magazine, wrote the following their latest ICv2 Guide to Games:
"The initial core book release sold well as my initial 3.5 release did" and that sales of 4E were "no comparison to any other RPG as far as quantity sold."
That said, now that much of the initial excitement of the release has dwindled, follow-up sales have been a little less than stellar on anything other than Player's Handbooks. "Initial sell-through was about the same for 3.5, but restocks on the three core books are lower than 3.5," said one distributor. "The other books [Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide] used to sell one for ever two Player's Handbooks; now they're selling on for every five." Added Calhoun, "The numbers are nice on the accessory products, but the reorders are not as strong."
Now, this is still sorta anecdotal, since it only shows the picture through a couple of game industry distributors, and doesn't take into account the internet sales, especially through Amazon. However, it is not the same sort of verbage used when 3.0 was launched, which everyone considered a huge success and something that revived the industry.
I personally think that the real data that is going to sway 4e one way or another is the number of DDI subscribers. If that is hugely successful, the paper products won't matter anymore to Hasbro and WotC. And that is data that none of us outside of WotC will ever see unless there is a leak.
-Lisa
Warning: many guesses and what ifs to follow.
I guess that the sales of 3.5 were less than those of 3.0. Does anyone know the facts?
If Calhoun says that the initial sell-through was about the same as 3.5, even if sell-through is just a percentage, I guess that the absolute numbers could be about the same - otherwise, the comparison would be quite misleading.
That 4e sells better than any other RPG sold is not surprising, if I assume that this statement is made regarding sales at the moment - after all, D&D is still the industry leader. Or is it an all-time bestseller, even compared to 3.0? I don´t think so, the core books sold as well as the 3.5 books initially, my guess is that 3.0 sold better than 3.5. EDIT: If the 4e sales would be an all-time high, Calhoun would surely say so.
It is said that the reorders are not as strong (as 3.5, I´d guess). "A little less than stellar" sounds like an euphemism to me (marketing language). Overall, I get the impression that 4.0 sales are less overall than 3.5, regarding the basic books, which were always the strongest sellers.
Now, 3.0 was an exception and revived a dwindling market, not least because of the stroke of genius the OGL was. But if overall sales of 4e seem to be lower than even 3.5, which was a major update, not a completely new rules edition, this might spell trouble.
In the end of the day, the Hasbro shareholders won´t be interested why some part of the company is less profitable than before - either WotC generates enough revenue, no matter how, to remain worthwhile or it will get booted.
Now, I´m painting very black here and base much on guesses, but I still think that not all is well with D&D and WotC, and this might cause more trouble for the RPG industry in the future.
Stefan
They were offered one billion dollars to tour about ten years back, and for the sake of their musical legacy, declined rather than go out there dumpy and screeching. Imagine that?
I suspect the fact that at least a couple of them absolutely hate each other has something to do with it.
Probably but still, many lesser bands would put such issues aside when offered one billion (Sex Pistols to name one). It is kind of funny anyway that ABBA of all groups has shown such integrity...
There are also some other reasons mentioned (one of them, IIRC Agnetha, apparently also has huge fear of flying and thus touring is not her favorite thing) and surely they all have enough money to not worry about it, but still, one billion!
Wouldn't Amazon get their stock from one or more of the distributors? Presumably they can't do an end run around the distributors? I mean if they can then that sounds like they enjoy such an unfair advantage in the market place that its the sort of thing that needs to be looked at by government organizations meant to insure that monopoly does not develop.Amazon buys directly from WotC's book distributor, which I believe is Random House. The reason I know this is that Amazon buys Paizo products directly from our book distributor, Diamond Books. So, yes, they get to do a runaround on the hobby distributors. However, I believe that they buy their products at roughly the same discount as they would through the hobby trade, with perhaps a few points shaved for volume discounts.
-Lisa
Ah - of course that makes a lot of sense. I had forgotten about the Random House deal that WotC has. That said when I did look at acquiring WotC books from Random House a year or maybe 18 months ago they were basically the same price as buying from a distributor.
I prefer using a distributor as they know the product while Random House, as the biggest publisher in the world (I think anyway - certianly biggest in Canada) does not really know one book from another. Also distributors give out free swag! Random House sure won't do that.
RHODE ISLAND = R'lyeh
[tinfoil hat]Rhode Island, home of H.P. Lovecraft, home of Hasbro ...coincedence? Are the Deep Ones plotting their decades-long schemes to bring down humanity from their underwater lair deep within Narragansett Bay's murky depths? Is the CEO of Hasbro ready to take on the gaming industry after his stint in the automobile industry?
Before joining Hasbro, Mr. Hargreaves held several finance positions in the automobile industry in Europe including stints with both the Ford Motor Company and DeLorean Motor Cars
Will the dread fish men rise up after our civilization falls to ruin? Will we be sacrificed at Dagon's blood-stained altar? Quick! Scrawl the Elder Sign on your door and pray that you are not taken! Look to the sea! Iä Iä! Cthulu F'thagn! [/tinfoil hat]
Hehheheh.
All in the spirit of fun, remember. Though for those laid off, I suppose there was not that much fun involved.