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i agree Marc, i was jsut reading it
i couldn't agree more
what hopes can one have of a good game if they take the heads of the ones who know the ropes... the ones to put the fire into the people... iknow i was not a big follower of 3.5 much less 4E, but i have a real appreciation for Cook's work... if he learned with them... they are good
but more importantly... one would have hopped at least some advice on advance *sight* well NO more ranting for me...
i just wish good luck to all this people... i haveno account in ENWorld so i won't be posting there... so i will just give them my best wishes and hope for their wellfare and learn soon from them in the industry in a much better place
I wonder...will Paizo be offering Noonan/Tweet freelance work for Pathfinder?
Tweet for Pathfinder Tien Xia/Minkai? That would make my brain explode in happiness.
I wonder...will Paizo be offering Noonan/Tweet freelance work for Pathfinder?
Umm... let's just say that we're always looking for new talent. Especially if it's actually old talent.
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I wonder...will Paizo be offering Noonan/Tweet freelance work for Pathfinder?Umm... let's just say that we're always looking for new talent. Especially if it's actually old talent.
i hope this is a YES :)
i loved Oriental Adventures... i just want to know whoi lent it that never returned it when i changed from state :S snif
I wonder...will Paizo be offering Noonan/Tweet freelance work for Pathfinder?Umm... let's just say that we're always looking for new talent. Especially if it's actually old talent.
Yeah...this is the direction my thoughts were actually going when I asked about employment, person-wise, whatever forms that work might take.
Are the layoffs just at WotC or at Hasbro in genral? Anybody know?
A quick internet search showed no reports of major Hasbro layoffs since January of this year. Doesn't mean there aren't any, but if there are they aren't public internet fare.
I have to echo Monte's sentiments. If you design role-playing games, why lay off one of the best in the business? It just seems horribly counter-intuitive if you care at all about the quality of the product you produce.
I wonder...will Paizo be offering Noonan/Tweet freelance work for Pathfinder?Umm... let's just say that we're always looking for new talent. Especially if it's actually old talent.
RPGs are saved by Paizo....
...once again. ;)
if you care at all about the quality of the product you produce.
Yeah...(emphasis mine).
I have to echo Monte's sentiments. If you design role-playing games, why lay off one of the best in the business? It just seems horribly counter-intuitive if you care at all about the quality of the product you produce.
I guess my response to that is why be surprised when it happens after they've already made a habit of it? Jeff Grubb, Sean K. Reynolds, Skip Williams, JD Wiker, Rich Redman, Stan!, among many, many others. All among the best in the business, all given the boot in the same cold-hearted counter-intuitive manner.
why be surprised when it happens after they've already made a habit of it? Jeff Grubb, Sean K. Reynolds, Skip Williams, JD Wiker, Rich Redman, Stan!, among many, many others. All among the best in the business, all given the boot in the same cold-hearted counter-intuitive manner.
I'm actually trying to think now of how WotC could surprise me at this point. The scenarios are all extremely positive and equally unlikely.
I am amazed at Montes post on that topic. It sounds quite bitter, or is it just me ?
But I concur with his statement that it is not a good decision to fire one of the best RPG designers if you have an RPG company. I still love his work on Ars Magica all those years ago, most books of ArM 2nd to 4th Ed. line my shelves.
Stefan
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Man... I don't even need to make up reasons to hate Wizards anymore, with moves like this they do it for me. I mean, how stupid are they to lay off some of the best in the business?
My heart goes out to all who lost their jobs during this yearly round of layoffs. Best wishes to you all.
This new Wizards is definitely greed-centric cold corporate mentality. It should be against the law to lay people off before Christmas, quick someone sue for mental duress!! LOL
Wizards continues to burn its bridges with not only fans of D&D but the industry talent as well. New talent that comes along is eventually not going to want to get started there because of their consistent mistreatment/mismanagement of employees. Though I loathe WOTC to the utmost, I suspect that most of these people will continue on and do better for themselves. It seems that accepting employment at WOTC is like a self-proclaimed death sentance. There is something seriously wrong in this house beyond just the economic difficulties everyone faces. When this is all over I really don't think there will be a WOTC left and D&D will be left hanging for the nect buyer. I don't think its more than 1-2 years away. These people are driving themselves out of business.
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I am amazed at Montes post on that topic. It sounds quite bitter, or is it just me ?
But I concur with his statement that it is not a good decision to fire one of the best RPG designers if you have an RPG company. I still love his work on Ars Magica all those years ago, most books of ArM 2nd to 4th Ed. line my shelves.Stefan
i would be bitter if my friends were left in the street
also by definition WotC makes RPGs directions... Paizo just give us a different road, so if with their policies and direction they hurt the industry... its of course something someone in the industy will take as personal.... WotC has all the weight behind it to move the industry in whatever direction they want.i hope they fail, the direction they have taken is one i dislike greatly
Wizards continues to burn its bridges with not only fans of D&D but the industry talent as well. New talent that comes along is eventually not going to want to get started there because of their consistent mistreatment/mismanagement of employees. Though I loathe WOTC to the utmost, I suspect that most of these people will continue on and do better for themselves. It seems that accepting employment at WOTC is like a self-proclaimed death sentance. There is something seriously wrong in this house beyond just the economic difficulties everyone faces. When this is all over I really don't think there will be a WOTC left and D&D will be left hanging for the nect buyer. I don't think its more than 1-2 years away. These people are driving themselves out of business.
i agree Eileen, they are hurting the industry at the same time... i just hope good publishers like Paizo can protect the industry before it crashed due to bad practices by its giagiants....
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honestly and don't hate me for saying this, but I don't think it really affects their bottom line much at all. It wasn't until I came over to paizo that I started learning designers names and such. before that I easily spent a $1000 or more on WotC stuff. Firing staff is something that goes unnoticed in most of the gaming circles I'm in.
Is it aweful, yes. Is it bad for WotC to do, I don't think they'll see any noticable difference.
New talent that comes along is eventually not going to want to get started there because of their consistent mistreatment/mismanagement of employees. Though I loathe WOTC to the utmost, I suspect that most of these people will continue on and do better for themselves. It seems that accepting employment at WOTC is like a self-proclaimed death sentance.
A no-name talent goes to WotC, builds a name for themselves. Then gets laid off and goes somewhere else and continues to be successful. Sounds like a great springboard type of set up to me.
New talent that comes along is eventually not going to want to get started there because of their consistent mistreatment/mismanagement of employees. Though I loathe WOTC to the utmost, I suspect that most of these people will continue on and do better for themselves. It seems that accepting employment at WOTC is like a self-proclaimed death sentance.A no-name talent goes to WotC, builds a name for themselves. Then gets laid off and goes somewhere else and continues to be successful. Sounds like a great springboard type of set up to me.
Sure, if you go into it with that frame of mind and are fending for yourself and not supporting a spouse and children. If you have a family that needs to be taken care of and desire steady employment than "No" WOTC wouldn't be the most stable company to work for. Hopefully these people will stay in the industry if they want to and find more secure employment.
This new Wizards is definitely greed-centric cold corporate mentality. It should be against the law to lay people off before Christmas, quick someone sue for mental duress!! LOL
There are perfectly legitimate reasons to lay people off before Christmas. Namely, New Years.
Yes, it's just to make the accountants lives easier, but there you have it.
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I think a lot of the posters here are taking the WotC layoffs way too personally. Any business that wants to stay afloat will cut back on unnecessary expenses and the most common unnecessary expense is personal. Eliminating salaried positions is the easiest ways of cutting expenses and still maintaining quality. All RPG and Module design can be outsourced to freelancers for a fraction of a yearly salary. Most of the layoffs have been in the public relations and DDI departments, and layoffs have been expected their by a lot of people for a long time. The ham fisted way 4e was marketed cost WotC a lot of potential buyers, and the DDI and gleemax fiascos should have seen people fired a long time ago. Funny how most people on this thread haven't expressed outrage about those layoffs.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sure, if you go into it with that frame of mind and are fending for yourself and not supporting a spouse and children. If you have a family that needs to be taken care of and desire steady employment than "No" WOTC wouldn't be the most stable company to work for. Hopefully these people will stay in the industry if they want to and find more secure employment.
If you go into rpg development professionally, you should go in with exactly that frame of mind. The number of people who can make a living at this are miniscule, particularly compared to the number that would like to make a living. If you want a stable job and secure employment, rpgs are not the career path you should pursue. Even with the layoffs, WotC has been one of the few places people can make a living in this industry.
The lay-offs suck, but job security and stability are not the reasons people go into this industry.
If you go into rpg development professionally, you should go in with exactly that frame of mind. The number of people who can make a living at this are miniscule, particularly compared to the number that would like to make a living. If you want a stable job and secure employment, rpgs are not the career path you should pursue.
Damn! I guess its true... I'll have to trade the pencils back for marketing and design books and get out of the drawing pits... Damn hunger and neccesity of household! *shakefist*
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This new Wizards is definitely greed-centric cold corporate mentality. It should be against the law to lay people off before Christmas, quick someone sue for mental duress!! LOL
I am one of those people who have had the unpleasent duty to layoff employees. I would have loved to keep them on until the end of the year but money and sentimentality don't mix. Any business that does place sentimentality over profit will soon be closed.
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I think a lot of the posters here are taking the WotC layoffs way too personally. Any business that wants to stay afloat will cut back on unnecessary expenses and the most common unnecessary expense is personal. Eliminating salaried positions is the easiest ways of cutting expenses and still maintaining quality. All RPG and Module design can be outsourced to freelancers for a fraction of a yearly salary. Most of the layoffs have been in the public relations and DDI departments, and layoffs have been expected their by a lot of people for a long time. The ham fisted way 4e was marketed cost WotC a lot of potential buyers, and the DDI and gleemax fiascos should have seen people fired a long time ago. Funny how most people on this thread haven't expressed outrage about those layoffs.
Because CEOs can't take a paycut to help afford to keep the employees...I agree that the release of 4e in this climate mixed with the fracturing of the community due to shotgun marketing is what caused the problem in the first place...
it's funny they rushed 4e out the door, and lied about it's develeopment being not until at least 2009...well 2009 would have been a better time to release a new version most likely...unless of course we're in a depression, and then there's nothing we can do about that...
I am one of those people who have had the unpleasent duty to layoff employees. I would have loved to keep them on until the end of the year but money and sentimentality don't mix. Any business that does place sentimentality over profit will soon be closed.
Well, that's the whole idea behind capitalism! Happened to me like 4 years ago... Now I'm a unhappy employee looking for his way out into self employement, but this may not be the best time for that!
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I think a lot of the posters here are taking the WotC layoffs way too personally. Any business that wants to stay afloat will cut back on unnecessary expenses and the most common unnecessary expense is personal. Eliminating salaried positions is the easiest ways of cutting expenses and still maintaining quality. All RPG and Module design can be outsourced to freelancers for a fraction of a yearly salary. Most of the layoffs have been in the public relations and DDI departments, and layoffs have been expected their by a lot of people for a long time. The ham fisted way 4e was marketed cost WotC a lot of potential buyers, and the DDI and gleemax fiascos should have seen people fired a long time ago. Funny how most people on this thread haven't expressed outrage about those layoffs.
I think most of the outrage lies in who was actually laid off this time around. I remember the same sort of frustration when other, well known designers were let go in the past.
Right, wrong, or indifferent, laying off people that seem to embody the original soul of D&D is one more stroke against the company in the minds of many fans.
For my part, I am surprised by who got the axe. They eliminated some real talent (massive understatement). While I understand they likely got rid of their higher paid employees, it does seem a bit odd that they chose to remove individuals known for their expertise in game design.
All of this goes back to the old debate concerning WotC's treatment of D&D in general. Both sides have their opinions and I think most of them are legitimate, depending on your perception.
I am not certain I can decide if any of these feelings can be honestly directed at WotC, which is acting as a subsidary in the business world normally would. When hobby game companies cross a certain size threshold they enter a realm that is actually detrimental to their well being. The hobby game industry is really much more "personal" than other, larger industries. Losing that personal connection, or even appearing to lose that connection, leads to nasty results.
And when to comes to feelings I know my emotions are running a little high because I am facing elimination at my job. While I understand the choice has nothing to do with me as a person, the people making those decisions don't even know me, it still makes me wonder why I had any loyalty at all. So seeing this happen to people I respect and admire can hit hard.
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To be clear: I feel terrible to hear about the lay offs at wotc, especially around the holidays. See page one of this thread to ensure that these, my sentiments are clear.
That said...
When Monte said, "It's a foolish and shortsighted management that lets people like Jonathan, Julia, and Dave go. Foolish. And a cold-hearted one that does it at Christmas. But this is not new outrage, it's old, tired outrage. This is the company that laid off Skip, and Jeff, and Sean, and other people of extraordinary talent and experience. It's par for the recent course.
Before I end this bitter ramble, let me just add that it's hard not to laugh at the shocking and perhaps pitiable ineptitude of a company that makes role playing games that would lay off Jonathan Tweet, very likely the best rpg designer, well, period."
I ask this community to see wotc for not what they were - but what they have become!
I'D LIKE TO SEE THE $ AMOUNT ON SLAVICSEK'S PAYCHECK: THE MAN WHO TRIED TO KILL D&D. (or the size of MEARLS' rai$e for that matter) After running the game into the ground with that farce of an edition, they lay off the last of anyone who remembers how the game is actually played!!?!
I implore all of you - to see wotc for what it has become. And stop supporting their products. Let your dollars speak loudly (though limited this season) for PAIZO - the true stewards of the traditions of our game, for people like Monte Cook who have become exiled or layed off from wotc. This is madness... this is a sickness.... better leadership and management would have, should have, prevented this recurring greedy, foolish, shortsighted, inept, and pitiable behavior.
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I'D LIKE TO SEE THE $ AMOUNT ON SLAVICSEK'S PAYCHECK: THE MAN WHO TRIED TO KILL D&D. (or the size of MEARLS' rai$e for that matter) After running the game into the ground with that farce of an edition, they lay off the last of anyone who remembers how the game is actually played!!?!
Calm down. I don't like 4e either and I was sad to see 3.5 go, but it's a business and they do this stuff to make money. Hasbro's deep pockets haven't hurt WotC's ability to put stuff out there and you can hardly blame Adkison for selling when he did, but you can't run a nicey-nice operation when you're that size and owned by a much bigger corporation.
I do, incidentally, spend rather a lot of money with Paizo...
We gamers need to take back our beloved game we have all grown up with! I hope these layoffs result in a new company or better yet paizo takes on these talents! Our game is being destroyed by people who prObably could not identify a 20 sider if you showd them one! We need games by gamers and for gamers. VIVA REVOLUTION!!! Keep up the good work paizo.
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i agree with Pax Veritas
but the people still working there likeMEarls and Slaviscek are not to fault by the Layoffs
of course they are to blame for the new edition, but that is another matter entirely
but i agree... what WotC has become for many years causes more harm than good, i myself would call my happy if i see WotC disappearing, they absorved TSR, Hasbro Absorved them... if things continue as they are they migth very well just dissappear...
ok ok... and now that i was thinking on cheking on their apparently new Ravenloft novels...
sight... no more Ravenloft anyway
PS: and i did liked Mearls work in Iron Heroes... just don't liked what he and the rest of the staff did with the rest of the hobby :S
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The large amounts of $$$ that I used to spend on WOTC D&D 3.X products is now routed towards Paizo for Pathfinder products. However, this is not a political position, it is simply voting with my money for the products that I think contribute to my (and my players') optimal gaming experience.
If 4E were an attractive system I would be torn, forced to either cut back on Pathfinder stuff to pay for 4E books, or shell out double the cash. Fortunately for me, WOTC didn't go there.
Chief Technical Officer
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Interesting comment from Monte Cook over on the EnWorld forum ...
"...It's par for the recent course..."
There's nothing recent about the course, nor is it a function of governance by Hasbro. The first major layoff in Wizards' history was shortly before Christmas in 1995—that's the one that got me, James Ernest, and a couple dozen others. (Jonathan Tweet's job in RPG R&D actually went away that day too, but Magic R&D made an opening to save him.)
There have been quite a few layoffs since then—ones of note to Paizo include our CEO Lisa Stevens in 2000, and Sean K Reynolds in 2002...
I have to say I'm always startled by some of the people they let go and some of the people they keep.
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thanks for the comment Vic
its weird then
Hasbro gives them freedom as a Company then its weird how they push their talent away :S
well more than 10 years of doing the same, means they will stay in business for a while...
i comment because i know most people blame Hasbro for this and other decisions... if its not Hasbro... then well the problem is in their own house
its a shame how they direct themselves :S
Everyone should look on the bright side if WotC tanks like most posters here want. Hasbro will sell off the D&D brand name to the highest bidder allowing Paizo a chance of owning D&D.
Sure - as long as Paizo can outbid Electronic Arts (use the IP in an attempt to make a WoW killer) or Blizzard (keep the IP out of competitors hands - mine it for stuff to add to WoW).
I'd be real surprised if the IP is worth less then 10 million and I suspect I'm being to conservative.
Everyone should look on the bright side if WotC tanks like most posters here want. Hasbro will sell off the D&D brand name to the highest bidder allowing Paizo a chance of owning D&D.Sure - as long as Paizo can outbid Electronic Arts (use the IP in an attempt to make a WoW killer) or Blizzard (keep the IP out of competitors hands - mine it for stuff to add to WoW).
I'd be real surprised if the IP is worth less then 10 million and I suspect I'm being to conservative.
So if I win the Mega Millions, then I might just be able to buy the D & D IP? Sweet! Now to win that money!
So if I win the Mega Millions, then I might just be able to buy the D & D IP? Sweet! Now to win that money!
Where do I deposit my $100 bucks to contribute to buying D&D IP? :D
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Everyone should look on the bright side if WotC tanks like most posters here want. Hasbro will sell off the D&D brand name to the highest bidder allowing Paizo a chance of owning D&D.Sure - as long as Paizo can outbid Electronic Arts (use the IP in an attempt to make a WoW killer) or Blizzard (keep the IP out of competitors hands - mine it for stuff to add to WoW).
I'd be real surprised if the IP is worth less then 10 million and I suspect I'm being to conservative.
If I had that laying around I would certainly buy it.
And then promptly gift it to Paizo. That is, if they would want it.
Perhaps some day. It is nice to dream.
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Layoffs are terrible. I do not wish that on anyone. My sincere best wishes to those folks.
With that said, I do not begrudge anyone that still has a job over at WotC, as their days could be numbered too. I suspect that we will see more layoffs at Hasbro, as they have announced lower than expected profits for this period. I can not believe that the D&D department was the only one hit.
With that said, I hope some of the talent migrates over to Paizo in some form.
As a final thought, it is great to see the encouragement and support from everyone on the message boards. The community really does care about the people in it.
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Chief Technical Officer
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How many hands does Wizards have to bite before we stop feeding them?Looks like the software company model to me.
Hire new talent. Strip all their ideas, make it your I.P.
Fire them.
Hire new talent. Strip their ideas, make it your I.P.
Fire them.
Etc.
While the layoffs are a recurring thing, it's far from the "churn-and-burn" strategy you describe. After all, Jonathan Tweet had been at Wizards since 1993, and Julia Martin had been at TSR even before that. I'm not sure exactly when Andrew Finch started, but '96 would be my estimate.
Everyone should look on the bright side if WotC tanks like most posters here want. Hasbro will sell off the D&D brand name to the highest bidder allowing Paizo a chance of owning D&D.
If WotC really tanks, its bad news for the whole RPG market - like it or not, D&D is the market leader, and if the market leader goes out of business, it is likely very bad for the whole industry. WotC is bigger than the other companies by a wide margin AFAIK, so the whole RPG industry would probably be relegated to a niche status, with no companiy being able to fill that gap for a long time. I seriously doubt that any RPG company would have the financial power to buy the D&D brand if it ever were for sale. And I seriously doubt that paizo would want to buy it even if they had the power, as they are successful with their own endeavour.
I really hope that this layoff is just owed to the cost-reducing end-of-the-year madness, and I hope that D&D4 is doing well, even if I don´t like it, and I sure don´t like the layoff decision they made, for the sake of the game.
Stefan