If you go into rpg development professionally, you should go in with exactly that frame of mind. The number of people who can make a living at this are miniscule, particularly compared to the number that would like to make a living. If you want a stable job and secure employment, rpgs are not the career path you should pursue. Even with the layoffs, WotC has been one of the few places people can make a living in this industry.
The lay-offs suck, but job security and stability are not the reasons people go into this industry.
Agreed, job security isn't part of the package in RPG industry so I cannot take too much offense in general of layoffs. And time of year makes sense too, Unfortunately this is the time to do it.
Those said, I will be watching where Jonathan Tweet ends up, as he indeed is pretty much the top of the industry as far as I am concerned. While there is no job security, there is name recognition.
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You could argue that the bulk of the heavy R&D work for the next few years is done, with 4e effectively out there. We are now down to nurturing the brand with supplements, adventures and so on. Does that require so much heavy lifting talent? Dunno, frankly, I'm not sufficiently familiar with the industry model and I find it hard to believe that these guys can't write modules and supplements. But it might be someone else could do it cheaper, or they could do it cheaper freelance. It's a business at the end of the day, and plenty of other people are getting the boot too who probably have poorer prospects for self-employment, but getting sacked before Christmas is still not nice.
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Everyone should look on the bright side if WotC tanks like most posters here want. Hasbro will sell off the D&D brand name to the highest bidder allowing Paizo a chance of owning D&D.If WotC really tanks, its bad news for the whole RPG market - like it or not, D&D is the market leader, and if the market leader goes out of business, it is likely very bad for the whole industry. WotC is bigger than the other companies by a wide margin AFAIK, so the whole RPG industry would probably be relegated to a niche status, with no companiy being able to fill that gap for a long time. I seriously doubt that any RPG company would have the financial power to buy the D&D brand if it ever were for sale. And I seriously doubt that paizo would want to buy it even if they had the power, as they are successful with their own endeavour.
I really hope that this layoff is just owed to the cost-reducing end-of-the-year madness, and I hope that D&D4 is doing well, even if I don´t like it, and I sure don´t like the layoff decision they made, for the sake of the game.
Stefan
With respect to you, and your point, I have frankly heard this argument too many times. When a company like wotc treats is own customer base as it has, breaks faith with its own community, treats its employees in a churn and burn atmosphere, and demonstrates as many horrible behaviors as they have - - I am forced to say, let them tank. THERE MUST BE NO BAIL-OUT FOR WOTC. If it must happen, let there be a hurt felt in the industry until another group steps up and acts as benevolent stewards of the game we love. I am tired, frankly exhausted, from having my hobby (something fun) turn into a daily political joke!
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While the layoffs are a recurring thing, it's far from the "churn-and-burn" strategy you describe. After all, Jonathan Tweet had been at Wizards since 1993, and Julia Martin had been at TSR even before that. I'm not sure exactly when Andrew Finch started, but '96 would be my estimate.How many hands does Wizards have to bite before we stop feeding them?Looks like the software company model to me.
Hire new talent. Strip all their ideas, make it your I.P.
Fire them.
Hire new talent. Strip their ideas, make it your I.P.
Fire them.
Etc.
It certainly looks like they have gone further into their org chart than they have before, and are eliminating some talent with longer histories, so this points to some sort of strategic realignment. Consequently, I am not surpised to see a purge in their digital chain of command. It's apparent they are behind schedule and have not executed to expectation. For example, Gleemax.
However, these layoffs also purge a wave of individuals who seem to have been hired to fill a tactical short-term product development need.
This is ultimately an entertainment industry, and operates along the same brutal dynamics of hiring and firing as software, or movie production, or TV. Creative people are very vulnerable and only as protected as their last product or their patronage.
A real bummer for the poor guys laid off and whats likely even more painful is that its highly improbable that any of them can walk into a job that pays comparable to what they were making at WotC. In other words just to stay in the RPG industry probably means taking at least a 33% pay cut presuming that you'd likely get a starting wage of maybe ~$30,000 while some one thats worked for WotC for 10 years was probably making ~$40,000-$45,000.
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Sure, if you go into it with that frame of mind and are fending for yourself and not supporting a spouse and children. If you have a family that needs to be taken care of and desire steady employment than "No" WOTC wouldn't be the most stable company to work for. Hopefully these people will stay in the industry if they want to and find more secure employment.If you go into rpg development professionally, you should go in with exactly that frame of mind. The number of people who can make a living at this are miniscule, particularly compared to the number that would like to make a living. If you want a stable job and secure employment, rpgs are not the career path you should pursue. Even with the layoffs, WotC has been one of the few places people can make a living in this industry.
The lay-offs suck, but job security and stability are not the reasons people go into this industry.
I have to ultimately agree with Sebastian.
Just like folks who choose to pursue careers in acting or in movie production, broadcast news or in game developement, this labor pool is a buyer's market. It is cruel. It is brutal.
I feel sorry for tehse folks becasue much of thier work has been outstanding and has brought a good deal of joy into my life. However, they are birght and smart and agile ro tehy would not be where they are.
Look at what Vic and Lisa and Monte Cook and Zeb Cook have gone on to accomplish with their careers. It will be painful for them, but they will endure and bounce back.
When a company like wotc treats is own customer base as it has, breaks faith with its own community, treats its employees in a churn and burn atmosphere, and demonstrates as many horrible behaviors as they have - - I am forced to say, let them tank. THERE MUST BE NO BAIL-OUT FOR WOTC. If it must happen, let there be a hurt felt in the industry until another group steps up and acts as benevolent stewards of the game we love. I am tired, frankly exhausted, from having my hobby (something fun) turn into a daily political joke!
It took me a moment to realize why your post sounded strange to me. I think that I can agree with you that I don´t care much if WotC continues to exist as a company, per se. I don´t like 4e, as well. At the moment, WotC does not get a single penny from me, so I obviously don´t support them at all.
But fact is that WotC holds the licence to D&D. If they do not generate enough revenue for Hasbro, no matter what the cause, Hasbro might shut the whole thing down. Then they could either lay the licence fallow or try to sell to the highest bidder, which is most probably not one of the other RPG companies. Either we have no new products at all - ever. Or some video game giant buys the licence and produces only digital games of it. In both cases, D&D as pen and paper RPG might be pretty much dead.
It is not WotC I care about - it is the game I care about, and this is atm linked tightly to WotC.
Stefan
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Stebehil,
how long till WotC actually does that with DnD
it doesn't feel pen&paper anymore
a friend and i were talking months ago that this reminded him when the videogame crisis a lot of years ago, exactly because the companies stopped caring for their public
i there are a lot of people liking 4E, good... i would prefer if they stopped defyling what i consider one of my ways of living (not because it gives me for food... actually it taks from there, a lot :P)
i don't think WotC would fall soon, it has too many licenses... some more lucrative than others... but i can't stop thinking they are actually harming our game with how they act
so if they fell, i wouldn't be surprised, nor sad (ok for the poeple working there, yes, but not by what it represents)... let others do a good job... even if its not called D&D, if it feels like that... its good enough for me... that is why i am here actually.
otherwise i would still buying from White Wolf, which in their own regard are big enough company to take a leading position even if most of their products are different than what most of the ones here consume.
They also do pretty good products... i can do nothing but love Scion... but my players are not interested in playing demi gods in modern times :P
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It took me a moment to realize why your post sounded strange to me. I think that I can agree with you that I don´t care much if WotC continues to exist as a company, per se. I don´t like 4e, as well. At the moment, WotC does not get a single penny from me, so I obviously don´t support them at all.
But fact is that WotC holds the licence to D&D. If they do not generate enough revenue for Hasbro, no matter what the cause, Hasbro might shut the whole thing down. Then they could either lay the licence fallow or try to sell to the highest bidder, which is most probably not one of the other RPG companies. Either we have no new products at all - ever. Or some video game giant buys the licence and produces only digital games of it. In both cases, D&D as pen and paper RPG might be pretty much dead.
It is not WotC I care about - it is the game I care about, and this is atm linked tightly to WotC.
Stefan
I said this back in June.
Hasbro is now initiating the process of converting D&D to a digital product. That means a lot of people are going to lose their jobs. Yes, that means more than just those listed, which is pretty well confirmed by that statement at ICv2. Given past examples of such behavior, as cited, the timing is "standard".This is not a judgement on any of the people let go, just a statement that I am not in the least bit surprised or shocked by the timing or scope.
And indeed, it is increasingly likely that D&D as a TRPG is done. "Mark my words", and start marking the words of WotC staff at upcoming events, and keep an eye on the product schedule.
But fact is that WotC holds the licence to D&D. If they do not generate enough revenue for Hasbro, no matter what the cause, Hasbro might shut the whole thing down. Then they could either lay the licence fallow or try to sell to the highest bidder, which is most probably not one of the other RPG companies. Either we have no new products at all - ever. Or some video game giant buys the licence and produces only digital games of it. In both cases, D&D as pen and paper RPG might be pretty much dead.
It is not WotC I care about - it is the game I care about, and this is atm linked tightly to WotC.
Stefan
I don't get this.
I don't support the current ruleset and have no intention of supporting 4E. WOTC currently does not support an edition of the game that I play. As a result if they go under it doesnt effect the game that I play AT ALL. I'm playing Pathfinder / 3.5. As long as I can find players who are willing to play then we're cool.
So basically if WOTC goes under (which I dont believe it will mind you...) it doenst effect me at all as I wasnt using the present version of the game and I'm not putting any cash into thier coffers.
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I said this back in June.
Hasbro is now initiating the process of converting D&D to a digital product. That means a lot of people are going to lose their jobs. Yes, that means more than just those listed, which is pretty well confirmed by that statement at ICv2. Given past examples of such behavior, as cited, the timing is "standard".
This is not a judgement on any of the people let go, just a statement that I am not in the least bit surprised or shocked by the timing or scope.
And indeed, it is increasingly likely that D&D as a TRPG is done. "Mark my words", and start marking the words of WotC staff at upcoming events, and keep an eye on the product schedule.
*sight* quite possibly true... then it doesn't matter what happens to WotC, they have already killed DnD for me... just waiting for the news of the funeral
and agree with ShinHakkaider their death will not affect my game
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How are they going to balance some of those classes and monsters yet to come when they just laid off some of their most experienced staff?
Has WotC ever been that concerned with balance? My experience from MtG and D&D with WotC has been oh we release it with minimal testing and then errata it a few months after the release. That's what 4E seems to be doing, check the website daily for errata. It winds up people just make up how they want the rules to work and if someone calls them on it they say, "they errata'd it" just like MtG.
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Has WotC ever been that concerned with balance? My experience from MtG and D&D with WotC has been oh we release it with minimal testing and then errata it a few months after the release. That's what 4E seems to be doing, check the website daily for errata. It winds up people just make up how they want the rules to work and if someone calls them on it they say, "they errata'd it" just like MtG.
How are they going to balance some of those classes and monsters yet to come when they just laid off some of their most experienced staff?
i already hate that on Windows... why repeat it again on my hobby and fun?
Any one that has been a party to 4e deserves to have their christmas ruined! "Oh poor me, I am being laid off. Who cares that I helped murder the version of D&D that so many people loved."[/snark]
Seriously though, if we take the assumption that many people have that 4e is an inferior, juvenile product than what does that say about these supposive game design gods that are being let go now? Either (a) they aren't the game design gods that people are making them out to be because they helped to create 4e or (b) they are the game design gods that people are saying they are but they are just impotent in that 4e still happened despite them. So why shed tears for them?
As the great thinker Dennis Leary said, "Lives sucks, get a helmet."
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Any one that has been a party to 4e deserves to have their christmas ruined! "Oh poor me, I am being laid off. Who cares that I helped murder the version of D&D that so many people loved."[/snark]
Seriously though, if we take the assumption that many people have that 4e is an inferior, juvenile product than what does that say about these supposive game design gods that are being let go now? Either (a) they aren't the game design gods that people are making them out to be because they helped to create 4e or (b) they are the game design gods that people are saying they are but they are just impotent in that 4e still happened despite them. So why shed tears for them?
As the great thinker Dennis Leary said, "Lives sucks, get a helmet."
Classy.
Any one that has been a party to 4e deserves to have their christmas ruined! "Oh poor me, I am being laid off. Who cares that I helped murder the version of D&D that so many people loved."[/snark]
Seriously though, if we take the assumption that many people have that 4e is an inferior, juvenile product than what does that say about these supposive game design gods that are being let go now? Either (a) they aren't the game design gods that people are making them out to be because they helped to create 4e or (b) they are the game design gods that people are saying they are but they are just impotent in that 4e still happened despite them. So why shed tears for them?
As the great thinker Dennis Leary said, "Lives sucks, get a helmet."
Dude... that's a bit harsh. If you're a designer and the company that owns D&D wants to give you a job designing a new version of D&D, you'll pretty much take it.
I don't like 4E either, but still, jobs is jobs man.
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Any one that has been a party to 4e deserves to have their christmas ruined! "Oh poor me, I am being laid off. Who cares that I helped murder the version of D&D that so many people loved."[/snark]
Seriously though, if we take the assumption that many people have that 4e is an inferior, juvenile product than what does that say about these supposive game design gods that are being let go now? Either (a) they aren't the game design gods that people are making them out to be because they helped to create 4e or (b) they are the game design gods that people are saying they are but they are just impotent in that 4e still happened despite them. So why shed tears for them?
As the great thinker Dennis Leary said, "Lives sucks, get a helmet."
Merry Christmas to you as well, I hope you get what you deserve.
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As the great thinker Dennis Leary said, "Lives sucks, get a helmet."Merry Christmas to you as well, I hope you deserve what you get.
i agree... ¬¬
companies make decisions even without caring what their people say... so being so cold about people who have helped the industry itself for moreyears tahn many of the prescent have been playing is not just harsh its indeed offensive...i desire no evil to anyone (ok to WotC as a company YES)
As the great thinker Dennis Leary said, "Lives sucks, get a helmet."Merry Christmas to you as well, I hope you deserve what you get.i agree... ¬¬
companies make decisions even without caring what their people say... so being so cold about people who have helped the industry itself for moreyears tahn many of the prescent have been playing is not just harsh its indeed offensive...i desire no evil to anyone (ok to WotC as a company YES)
If the company tanks then guess what? That means the people there will be looking for work. You may believe that you are more noble than me but that is just because you are not looking down the line to the consequences of your desires.
Dude... that's a bit harsh. If you're a designer and the company that owns D&D wants to give you a job designing a new version of D&D, you'll pretty much take it.
I don't like 4E either, but still, jobs is jobs man.
Just like all those contractors working on the second Deathstar, when you work for the bad guy don't be surprised when the floor gets blown out from under you.
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If the company tanks then guess what? That means the people there will be looking for work. You may believe that you are more noble than me but that is just because you are not looking down the line to the consequences of your desires.As the great thinker Dennis Leary said, "Lives sucks, get a helmet."Merry Christmas to you as well, I hope you deserve what you get.i agree... ¬¬
companies make decisions even without caring what their people say... so being so cold about people who have helped the industry itself for moreyears tahn many of the prescent have been playing is not just harsh its indeed offensive...i desire no evil to anyone (ok to WotC as a company YES)
I never said I was more noble, but I'm not blaming the employee's for making a game that you don't like.
It's because I'm not blaming the employee's for making a game that you don't like.
This isn't about what I like! It's about evil, objectively demonstrable absolute evil. People who support evil should be punished. 4e is evil. Therefore the people that work on 4e are evil and should be punished. If I learned that Mearls' dog got hit by a car, I'd laugh. Why? Because of the evil he has done. We must destroy these people, force them out of society, and forever shame them for the horror they have perpetuated.
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This isn't about what I like! It's about evil, objectively demonstrable absolute evil. People who support evil should be punished. 4e is evil. Therefore the people that work on 4e are evil and should be punished.
It's because I'm not blaming the employee's for making a game that you don't like.
Nice try pony-boy.
It's because I'm not blaming the employee's for making a game that you don't like.
Hey they choose to work there, nobody bent their arm behind their back. And if they were such pillars of all that is old school and right about D&Ds past, why didn't they leave in disgust when 4e was announced as so many of the "true" fans did?
Besides if so many of you love these poor employees so much, why didn't you keep buying WotC products so that they could stay employed. No, you selfishly decided to take your money somewhere else, when these people depended on your continued patronage. So you want to see the blame for these people getting layed off, go look in the mirror for all you people that didn't follow the brand name as the sheep you were suppose to be.
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I just want to say that regaurdless of my ill feelings of WotC as a company, I still feel that that it sucks that those people got laid off. I know what it's like, i got laid off after 3 days of officially working at a factory. Only 2.5 of it i actually worked, the other half day i spent in the hospital 'cuz i very nearly cut my thumb off. Losing a job sucks bad. And i hope those people do, in fact, go on to bigger and better things.
Ooooooooh....too much aggreeeeession...
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I just want to say that regaurdless of my ill feelings of WotC as a company, I still feel that that it sucks that those people got laid off. I know what it's like, i got laid off after 3 days of officially working at a factory. Only 2.5 of it i actually worked, the other half day i spent in the hospital 'cuz i very nearly cut my thumb off. Losing a job sucks bad. And i hope those people do, in fact, go on to bigger and better things.
Considering the thumb incident, in hindsight it's probably a good thing you got laid off - who knows what you could have almost cut off had you worked there longer!!
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I just want to say that regaurdless of my ill feelings of WotC as a company, I still feel that that it sucks that those people got laid off. I know what it's like, i got laid off after 3 days of officially working at a factory. Only 2.5 of it i actually worked, the other half day i spent in the hospital 'cuz i very nearly cut my thumb off. Losing a job sucks bad. And i hope those people do, in fact, go on to bigger and better things.Considering the thumb incident, in hindsight it's probably a good thing you got laid off - who knows what you could have almost cut off had you worked there longer!!
True! I hadn't thought of it that way! Good thing, indeed!
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It's because I'm not blaming the employee's for making a game that you don't like.Hey they choose to work there, nobody bent their arm behind their back. And if they were such pillars of all that is old school and right about D&Ds past, why didn't they leave in disgust when 4e was announced as so many of the "true" fans did?
Besides if so many of you love these poor employees so much, why didn't you keep buying WotC products so that they could stay employeed. No, you selfishly decided to take your money somewhere else, when these people depending on your continued patronage. So you want to see the blame for these people getting layed off, go look in the mirror for all you people that didn't follow the brand name as the sheep you were suppose to be.
I like 4e and continue to buy their products. I also like PFRPG and will continue to buy their products as well.
I like 4e and continue to buy their products. I also like PFRPG and will continue to buy their products as well.
So, what you're saying is that you support evil?
Or are you saying you aren't a true fan of D&D?
Or, do you admit to being a sheep?
I like 4e and continue to buy their products. I also like PFRPG and will continue to buy their products as well.So, what you're saying is that you support evil?
Or are you saying you aren't a true fan of D&D?
Or, do you admit to being a sheep?
Yeah, what he said.
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This isn't about what I like! It's about evil, objectively demonstrable absolute evil. People who support evil should be punished. 4e is evil. Therefore the people that work on 4e are evil and should be punished. If I learned that Mearls' dog got hit by a car, I'd laugh. Why? Because of the evil he has done. We must destroy these people, force them out of society, and forever shame them for the horror they have perpetuated.
It's because I'm not blaming the employee's for making a game that you don't like.
lol many many things came to my mind right now... lol but if let half of them be written i would be really hated in here... jajaja
damn ok Montalve just shut up... no case trying to argue in this case...
ok the last thing that came
does anyone remember the Austin Power movies (ok they are not good but they exemplify something greatly)... when the henchemens are killed in 2 of the movies, in Bond and many other movies we just see a bad guy dying... but in Austin Powers they show us people who care about them and how they suffer for the loss
when you affect a servant of evil... you don't affect the evil itself... but the good persons around this poor servant
also we are all slaves to money... otherwise we couldn't be here buying things from Paizo
if you could destroy the real evil (WotC) this people at leastwould be free from it... i agree 4E is EVIL! i would destroy WotC, but i would hate to hurt the people that are only the gears behind it... i would prefer to go for the head... ok Maybe Mearls should be punished... just wait... his Layoff is there... just waiting for him in the future
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True! I hadn't thought of it that way! Good thing, indeed!I just want to say that regaurdless of my ill feelings of WotC as a company, I still feel that that it sucks that those people got laid off. I know what it's like, i got laid off after 3 days of officially working at a factory. Only 2.5 of it i actually worked, the other half day i spent in the hospital 'cuz i very nearly cut my thumb off. Losing a job sucks bad. And i hope those people do, in fact, go on to bigger and better things.Considering the thumb incident, in hindsight it's probably a good thing you got laid off - who knows what you could have almost cut off had you worked there longer!!
agreed :)
hope you are doing better :)
It certainly looks like they have gone further into their org chart than they have before, and are eliminating some talent with longer histories, so this points to some sort of strategic realignment. Consequently, I am not surpised to see a purge in their digital chain of command. It's apparent they are behind schedule and have not executed to expectation. For example, Gleemax.
This is sorta off topic, but I always hear people talk about how Gleemax is such a failure. What was it intended to do? I always just assumed that it was where they hosted their forums.
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This is sorta off topic, but I always hear people talk about how Gleemax is such a failure. What was it intended to do? I always just assumed that it was where they hosted their forums.
It certainly looks like they have gone further into their org chart than they have before, and are eliminating some talent with longer histories, so this points to some sort of strategic realignment. Consequently, I am not surpised to see a purge in their digital chain of command. It's apparent they are behind schedule and have not executed to expectation. For example, Gleemax.
That you can't articulate what it was supposed to be, tells you quite a bit about its failure.
I think... it was supposed to be an online gameboard form multiple platforms. It was also supposed to be a gamer "myspace".
Others may have more to add on this topic.
This is sorta off topic, but I always hear people talk about how Gleemax is such a failure. What was it intended to do? I always just assumed that it was where they hosted their forums.
It certainly looks like they have gone further into their org chart than they have before, and are eliminating some talent with longer histories, so this points to some sort of strategic realignment. Consequently, I am not surpised to see a purge in their digital chain of command. It's apparent they are behind schedule and have not executed to expectation. For example, Gleemax.That you can't articulate what it was supposed to be, tells you quite a bit about its failure.
I think... it was supposed to be an online gameboard form multiple platforms. It was also supposed to be a gamer "myspace".
Others may have more to add on this topic.
Wow, you're right, I had no idea that it was ever supposed to be anything other than an overblown message board.. I guess it sounds like kind of a cool idea though.. sorta.
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It was intended to be a social netowrking tool like facebook or myspace or xbox live for tabletop gamers
This is sorta off topic, but I always hear people talk about how Gleemax is such a failure. What was it intended to do? I always just assumed that it was where they hosted their forums.
Dude that would have been awesome. I also never knew it was supposed to be anything more than a new site to host the forums. And by just trying to go to gleemax.com I learned that not only did it fail, it also was discontinued.
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Dude that would have been awesome. I also never knew it was supposed to be anything more than a new site to host the forums. And by just trying to go to gleemax.com I learned that not only did it fail, it also was discontinued.It was intended to be a social netowrking tool like facebook or myspace or xbox live for tabletop gamers
This is sorta off topic, but I always hear people talk about how Gleemax is such a failure. What was it intended to do? I always just assumed that it was where they hosted their forums.
thatis the shame
good concept they just let to die.. or killed outright
i remember it was one of the intents... it just didn't worked
Hasbro is now initiating the process of converting D&D to a digital product. That means a lot of people are going to lose their jobs. Yes, that means more than just those listed, which is pretty well confirmed by that statement at ICv2. Given past examples of such behavior, as cited, the timing is "standard".
This is not a judgement on any of the people let go, just a statement that I am not in the least bit surprised or shocked by the timing or scope.
And indeed, it is increasingly likely that D&D as a TRPG is done. "Mark my words", and start marking the words of WotC staff at upcoming events, and keep an eye on the product schedule.
I would argue that due to a good number of the people they cut, and the fact that they cited DDI as performing below expectations, WotC might have been experimenting with the idea of converting D&D to a purely digital product, but that this experiment is failing fast.
And why wouldn't it? People already have enough MMOs to choose from, including one called D&D that people have pretty well rejected already. You can't make D&D into WoW and expect it to be wildly successful. Besides, WotC has never been particularly good at creating electronic products. They aren't a software company. As someone who used to work alongside the Dev team, I know that they were experienced programmers and developers who were constantly frustrated because the business side knew paper based games, not electronic ones, and as a result, didn't give them what they needed to be successful.
D&D as a player acquisition product? Give me a break. D&D has always been niche. It just happens to be niche with a wide fan base that enjoyed fad status for a while and otherwise has been built up over thirty years. And that fan base is turning their back on it faster now than ever before. 4E is competing not only with 3E, but also with 2e and 1E, and 4E isn't doing so well. People like the sacred cows they're so fond of killing off, and while younger players will filter in as always, you shouldn't change the entire flavor of your product just to try to bring them in. That's New Coke. It failed. Evidence is surfacing that 4E is failing too.
I know numerous gamers personally. These aren't people who hang out on messageboards or are names on products. These are people who have doctorates and work at universities, and are project managers for companies you've likely never heard of, and are librarians, and restaurant workers, and engineers, and military personnel. Of the whole lot of them, many own the 4E books. Of them, I know one guy who actually likes the game and plays it. Everyone else is either playing 3rd edition, a D20 derivative, or some other game entirely.
The success of 4E ultimately doesn't come down to the total number of core books you sell in the first few months, but in whether or not you can continue selling supplements for years after the edition has been released. So far, based on the people I know in the real world, and on the reports I've read from the retailers, and from the simple fact that I can review the game honestly and impartially and come away feeling that it's sorely lacking that I think 4E and the D&D brand in general is in deep, deep trouble.
I'm not a fan of WotC's business practices, but I genuinely like a lot of the people who still work there. I don't want to see them lose their jobs. Chris Perkins, James Wyatt, Bruce Cordell, Rich Baker, Bill Slavicsek, Rob Heinsoo, Kim Mohan, and others - all very cool, very intelligent guys who really do have the best interests of the game and its fans at heart. They just happen to have made a game I don't care for - kind of like the Beatles' White Album, and yes, I did just compare them to the Beatles.
I know some of what thinking went into 4E four years in advance and I wasn't very surprised by its final form. You can't blame the fact that you don't like it all on Mike Mearls. It's not his fault. If anything, the fault is people trying too hard to please everyone, and ultimately ending up pleasing a relatively smaller group than they had hoped.
Ultimately I don't know if the D&D brand will survive this. My gut instinct is that the edition will fail within two years and the brand will be shelved for five to ten years, then brought back out once they feel there is demand for it again. If that happens, my prediction is that rather than have one company with one huge RPG brand out there, the vacuum would be filled with numerous smaller companies. The demand for roleplaying games will not simply disappear because the giant has fallen. There's a pretty sizable fan base out there that likes spending money on new RPG products. That won't go away just because D&D does. In the process, these currently small companies, like Paizo, will have a chance to grow like never before because they will no longer be living in the shadow of D&D.
Back in 2003, after I had just barely made it to the airport in time to catch my flight out from Gen Con, I was passing through the security gate with my laptop in a D&D book bag I had gotten from WotC. As I went through, the security guy looked at me incredulously and was legitimately surprised that there were still people playing D&D. I was a bit surprised by this, given the fact that a good number of the people passing through the airport for a good long while had been doing so because of D&D. Ed Stark happened to be behind me at the time and explained to the guy exactly how wrong he was.
The sad thing is that this one clueless guy at the airport is symptomatic of a much larger problem, which is that a lot of people think that D&D belongs to the past and have no real concept of the current existence of the industry due to the fact that it has very little mainstream presence. I'm currently back in college finishing my degree and when I mention that I'm a gamer, I have to explain to them that no, I don't mean video games. There's a general lack of understanding of what exactly it is that I do when I tell them that I write gaming books. Trying to reach out to the video game playing crowd makes a certain amount of sense, because they are clearly in the majority these days, but I believe that such efforts are doomed to failure because tabletop is simply too much work for the people who want to pop in a game and sit back at their computer and play it in between doing other things.
So the point of this long rambling post is that I don't think that the failure of D&D would be the death of the industry. Maybe some of those guys I mentioned earlier could reform a new company that will make a new RPG that will be good enough to keep them and a few others employed full time. I do think that getting D&D, or at least the roleplaying industry in general, out from under the weight of a huge corporate entity would be a good thing for everybody involved - the customers and the professionals. I just think that getting there will be a painful process.
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I would argue that due to a good number of the people they cut, and the fact that they cited DDI as performing below expectations, WotC might have been experimenting with the idea of converting D&D to a purely digital product, but that this experiment is failing fast.
And why wouldn't it? People already have enough MMOs to choose from, including one called D&D that people have pretty well rejected already. You can't make D&D into WoW and expect it to be wildly successful. Besides, WotC has never been particularly good at creating electronic products. They aren't a software company. As someone who used to work alongside the Dev team, I know that they were experienced programmers and developers who were constantly frustrated because the business side knew paper based games, not electronic ones, and as a result, didn't give them what they needed to be successful.
I see pretty much the exact opposite. And pretty much for the exact reason you cite.
Yes, WotC's track record is lousy. That means the experiment being cancelled is not marketing D&D as an electronic product, but letting the gamers at WotC manage the creation of an electronic product. That has indeed ended in yet another disaster.
The experiment for marketing D&D as an electronic product traces back to when Pool of Radiance was made. The biggest info point Hasbro has on that can go is how much Infrogrames paid for Hasbro Interactive and the D&D game rights. Note, that sale caused more than a bit of disruption with Master Tools, and is still a reason why the DDI cannot be designed to do certain things. (As opposed to it not being designed except for a very small part so far.)
As for whether D&D can be leveraged as a brand for an MMO, possibly it cannot. That does not mean it cannot be managed with console games. Also keep in mind that just because DDO also failed does not change the simple numbers of TRPG sales compared to electonic products sales. Ultimately the money is with electronics, not tabletop products. That does indeed suck mightily for us, but that is not Hasbro's problem.
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I have to echo Monte's sentiments. If you design role-playing games, why lay off one of the best in the business? It just seems horribly counter-intuitive if you care at all about the quality of the product you produce.
Well, in my opinion. A greener workforce is more eager to bend to new ideas (as to please). Old hat workers have a vast amount of experience, but that comes at a price and can be harder to direct when the director may no less than those being directed. Very hard to brainwash experienced people who know better (or think they know better).
The D&D departure to 4th Edition broke enough ground as to take a new course that inexperience may flourish. The ball has been handed to a new generation of designers with a youthful perspective that matches more closely to the D&D Teens of today.
And I really don't believe that rubbish that I just wrote, but I do understand the thinking. I also understand that it helps to save money to have many employees working at near entry level wages. This of course is possible because they did "just fall off the turnip truck".
Funny, the closer you get to the seat of power in the Stalin Era, the more likely you were to end up shot. I think ambition will always outweigh "common sense" in corporate settings.
Alas,
Zux
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The D&D departure to 4th Edition broke enough ground as to take a new course that inexperience may flourish. The ball has been handed to a new generation of designers with a youthful perspective that matches more closely to the D&D Teens of today.
I understand why the company has changed its target audience (business is business, after all). It reminds me of Games Workshop changing their game systems. All-in-all a good thing for as it will introduce more people to the hobby, which we can then introduce to better game. However, laying people off (especially such great authours) is a little nuts!
Does Paizo have any interest in scooping some of these people up? ;)
Cheers! :D