OK, since I couldn't find any discussion about Psionics within the Beta section, I've decided to start my own (wasn't that nice of me?). I'm hoping to get some serious feedback on this and will probably be posting feedback on what has been placed on the older threads. Psionics have in the past gotten a serious crapper put on them for various reasons that, while some reasonings are deserved, some are not, but in the interest of being fair I've looked at the system and tinkered around with it to hopefully adjust some of the major concerns that abound about the present 3.5 system (*cough*overclocking*cough*)
Probably one of the main mechanical problems that people have with the psionic system is it's lack of a weakness; being able to blast away with your highest level powers round after round after round and at mid to high levels, not really caring about such an action. Inexperienced players with psionics would certainly do this as they want to put a beastie that just surprised them down hard and fast. The arcane players (Bard, Sor/Wiz types) have to carefully plan what they want to cast as they want to save their big guns for whatever BBEG is ahead. Whether this would happen in your campaign or not is not the question, it's all a problem of what could happen. Experienced Psionic characters know that they wouldn't want to do this, but it's the fact that it CAN happen is the problem with the overclocking issue. So a limiter of some type must be put in place.
However, rejoice! For I have found your solution for this problem, one that can be unique to the Pathfinder Psion. It's simple: for every Power point spent on a power of whatever source, an equal amount of non-lethal damage is applied to the character. Suddenly pumping out all those high-level powers doesn't seem too appealing does it, especially if you can end up unconscious real quick from abusing your powers too much.
Seriously, fantasy novels are full of channelers who use up too much power and promptly pass out from doing too much. As your level goes up so do your hp and power points, but the pp's outstrip hp's fairly quickly. Just imagine a 6th level psion could conceivably end up with 47 pp and 31 hp. You may have the power points to throw out an energy ball multiple times to take out all the enemies, but you would also knock yourself out rather quickly, not mentioning if you take any actual damage in addition to your non-lethal. Suddenly a psionic character would have to be very careful about how to spend his PPs.
Now this change would not take much to incorporate into PFRPG, just a paragraph or two to describe (if that much), the flavor seems, to me at least, still in harmony with psionics, and gives the psionicist a stronger penalty (yes James Jacobs, I'm talking to you) to the whole overclocking issue.
Who's the first taker on this discussion? Anyone?... Anyone?... Bueller?
I don't think it's a good idea. It doesn't mesh up well with other D&D. It's okay if ever wonderworker has this drawback (and you like this kind of thing), but not if some can cast magic with impunity, but otherd will pass out after a couple of spells - especially of that someone isn't exactly gorged on hit points.
I really don't think that this is necessary. Sorcerers have the same ability to blast things to pieces. There's nothing to stop a sorcerer for example to use their 3rd, 4th, and 5th level slots for fireball, to just blow stuff up. Keeping this in mind, let's compare a 11th level psion that I played with to this hypothetical sorcerer. I was looking at 128pp (23 effective int). With this, this psion could use energy ball enhanced to 10d6 damage 12 times. The sorcerer with 23 effective cha would have 19 spell slots that could be effectively filled with 10d6 fireballs. Doesn't seem like a problem to me. A wizard with 23 int can prepare 14 fireballs if he/she wished. Again, seems comparable. Both of these classes can front load their abilities as you say a psion can do. Psionics seems fine as compared to standard magic in this vein.
To Kaeyoss: About all it does is add on one single rule to what already exists with Psionics. What I’m trying to address is the whole overclock issue. From another thread
Well... my primary concern with Psionics and the point-based system is that it essentially gives the psionic character more uses of high-level stuff. The spellcasters have limited numbers of higher level spells; they can't sacrifice their low level spells that they'd never really cast anyway to power more high level stuff. …If there were a stronger penalty associated with overclocking your powers, I guess I'd be more okay with it is what I'm saying.
Now, could this method be too far? Maybe, but I’m hoping that the ideas that I throw out there will get the people in Paizo thinking Psionics. I suppose that you are right in that D&D has always been about ‘don’t worry about it until you reach 0 hp’ mentality. Or the Wizard that after casting his entire repertoire of spells, sits back and starts looking around for chips ‘n dip. I personally think mine makes more sense, but don't all our children look better to us than to someone elses? :) The method already exists in fantasy and the mechanics itself lends itself well to the method. Maybe different numbers are needed, but this is just a starting point.
I honestly believe it won’t be as bad as you think in regards to the HP (I hope!). With the way that PFRPG has the options for Starting HP, changing the Psion to a d6 and several Psionic feats that enhance HP, they might be able to last quite a bit longer than we think!To Kamai: A couple of points. While under the heading of ‘Preparing Wizard Spells’ it does mention wizards able to fill a higher slot with a spell of lower level, it does not do the same for Sorcerers and Bards. All I can extrapolate from it mentioning the one but not the other is that it is available for the one and not the other. So by the rules, sorcerers can’t do that. That doesn’t stop house rules, of course.
Second; while you could do that for a wizard, (and may need to in some extreme case) the problem lies with the fact that despite the fact you have all those fireballs, they are still considered 3rd level spells, while the Psionically enhanced powers are now considered, what, 5th level powers, because the enhancement increases the DCs as well. Though at 11th level you could even jack it up to a 6th level power at 11d6, but only 11 manifestations at 128 pp. So that’s 11d6, DC22 times 11, versus 10d6, DC 19 times 14. This is the problem that sticks in the craw of the people that say that psionics is an abuse of the system. And hey, they’re right! It is a system with no cap, since most of the powers are upgradeable by just pumping up the PP. The ability to upgrade your power as a higer power without the slots. So to make the system… erm, likable? Balanced? Anyways, people are saying it needs a cap, like the others have a cap. It’s just finding a cap that will fill the need that’s the problem.
However, rejoice! For I have found your solution for this problem, one that can be unique to the Pathfinder Psion. It's simple: for every Power point spent on a power of whatever source, an equal amount of non-lethal damage is applied to the character. Suddenly pumping out all those high-level powers doesn't seem too appealing does it, especially if you can end up unconscious real quick from abusing your powers too much.
My group and I love psionics and we have a lot of combined experience using them in our games. I'm confident that this wouldn't work - it's an additional penalty that they don't need (and at d4/d6 HD, they're going to fall down pretty fast), and it won't fix the problem. Psychic PCs will just start carrying around ways to heal the damage. Also, how will this rule work with powers that heal damage?
If players want to blow all their ppp, let them. Psionics are no where near as powerful as magic, because they have a lot more flexibility to make up for it. Wizards and sorcerers (and clerics) can do something similar. What solves the problem much better is reminding the player, in game, that they can't always count on a safe spot to rest and they don't always know when a fight is going to end.
We've seen this behavior, and a couple of encounters where the bad guys have reinforcements or there is some other such unexpected event, and the player soon realizes the dangers of blowing all their ppp. It should always be an option, it's a tactical choice after all. But like the General who commits all of his soldiers to the first wave, confident of victory, doing so leaves you unable to respond to a new threat.
It's a DM's job to not reinforce such behavior - if they think it ruins their game.
Peace,
tfad
Yeah, I love psionics, but I don't think there really needs to be a manner in which to limit them further. A sorcerer's 3rd level spells deal 10d6 damage for the expenditure of a 3rd level spell at 10th level. A kineticist's energy ball does 10d6 damage for the expenditure of 10 power points - the equivalent of a 5th level power and one additional power point on top of it. He's paying more for the same effect. I really don't see that he needs to suddenly take 10 nonlethal damage, too.
So I guess the question is; what are the things you think can/should/will be changed for psionics? Do you think anything should change? Why or why not?
I gotta tell ya, with the way that James Jacobs was talking earlier this year, I expect a major change. Maybe they will release it as a Beta test first, to let us know what to expect and put some input in.
And yeah, I know the mechanic of 1 nonlethal per pp use is over the top, but hey, it got people to start talking, even if all they are saying is 'You're crazy!' Go on, say it. You know you want to. Does anyone have any ideas on what could make this work? Maybe PP/4 (round up). Someday I'll probably use a character like this just for the fun of it.
By the way, what could we do for the Cantrips of Psionics? Do you think there is even a need for this? I wouldn't mind seeing this. My thoughts are along the lines of a player picks cantrips from the list of 1st level powers, treat them as spell-like abilities as per sor/wiz, make them non-augmentable, change the range to personal or touch, all numerical values get halved.
One note to fopalup, at best, as psionics is right now, its as if their class feature said that they had heighten spell for free, at best. How many wizards have you seen take heighten spell? How many sorcerers do you see taking heighten spell, if they could use metamagic without penalty? It's just not something that I've seen very much, nor is it something that would be used much, even if it was free. I don't think it's that big of a deal even if there wasn't the drawback that one needs to use the higher level slot just to get more damage.
If there must be a balance... maybe place the non-lethal damage at any pps used above 1/2 your level on one power(rounded up). This works to not mess over early level psionic characters, while taking on the abuses that people seem to think are in the system. To get the 10d6 fireball as an 11th level character with DC 21, the psion would spend 10 points and 5 non-lethal damage, the wizard would need a spell prepared as heightened by 2 levels, and the sorcerer would need have the heighten spell feat and a full-round action. At the same time, if this was happening, it would be nice to be able to push damage, but not DC, at a lower cost.
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Psionics are fine as they are. just replace Concentration checks with autohypnosis/psicraft and it's a seemless fit.
Oh, and they -don't- get heighten spell for free. an overchanelled energy ray (level 1 power) from a 20th level psion can do 23d6 points of damage for 23 points, infict 3d8 on the manifester... and still be stopped cold by minor globe of invulnerability
(23 points is equal to a 12th level spell, FWIW)
No offence intended, but the Nova psion is only really going to be a problem in a game that allows everyone to fire off all their high level spells, then teleport home to rest and regroup.
To Kamai: A couple of points. While under the heading of ‘Preparing Wizard Spells’ it does mention wizards able to fill a higher slot with a spell of lower level, it does not do the same for Sorcerers and Bards. All I can extrapolate from it mentioning the one but not the other is that it is available for the one and not the other. So by the rules, sorcerers can’t do that. That doesn’t stop house rules, of course.
Actualy, this is an official rule (although a bit hidden):
page 154:
"Casting Spells
Whether a spell is arcane or divine, and whether a character prepares spells in advance or chooses them on the spot, casting a spell works the same way.
Choosing a Spell
First you must choose which spell to cast. If you’re a cleric,
druid, experienced paladin, experienced ranger, or wizard, you select from among spells prepared earlier in the day and not yet cast (see Preparing Wizard Spells and Preparing Divine Spells).
If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher.
To cast a spell (...)
(...) Once you’ve cast a prepared spell, you can’t cast it again until you prepare it again. (If you’ve prepared multiple copies of a single spell, you can cast each copy once.) If you’re a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven’t reached your limit."
I think psionics are great as-is. The only thing I'd add is an at-will power for psions and wilders, and I'd rewrite a few classes like the soulknife and the metamind.
To Kaeyoss: About all it does is add on one single rule to what already exists with Psionics.
And "after casting a spell, you die (no safe)" would also be one single rule added to what already exists with magic, but it's still a huge change.
I do feel that psionics are a bit too strong and would like to see balance restored, but your rule doesn't restore balance - it just tilts it back and makes psionics weak again. I doubt anyone with the intention of being effective would play a psion.
Now, could this method be too far? Maybe, but I’m hoping that the ideas that I throw out there will get the people in Paizo thinking Psionics.
I think there are better ways to get them to discuss psionics than shouting "MAKE PSI SUCK!"
Anyway, The Golem Guys have their hands full right now, as they have to manage an adventure path line with monthly additions, an adventure module line with bi-monthly additions (the other months being filled with player's guide-type products instead), a Campaign Setting line, and they're busy giving us the next revision to 3e - where they have to concentrate on core material right now.
I can see them doing a new psionics book, but it won't be any time soon.
I suppose that you are right in that D&D has always been about ‘don’t worry about it until you reach 0 hp’ mentality.
Yeah, "don't worry too much until you reach 0 hp" is the D&D thing. I have no problem with that. I wouldn't have a problem with a condition track, either.
Or the Wizard that after casting his entire repertoire of spells, sits back and starts looking around for chips ‘n dip.
I won't get into the discussion about whether that mentality sucks or not. I just say that preventing one class from doing that while not preventing a very similar class from doing it doesn't sit well with me. Either both of them get such a limitation, or no one gets it. My vote goes to "no such limitation"
I personally think mine makes more sense
It might, if you implemented it consistently: If psions have to burn their health for their power, magic users should have to do the same.
Do it as an optional rule for all "wonderworkers", not as the standard rule for some of them.
Psions already have the Overchannel feat, maybe spellcasters should be able to power metamagic with health, too.
the problem lies with the fact that despite the fact you have all those fireballs, they are still considered 3rd level spells, while the Psionically enhanced powers are now considered, what, 5th level powers, because the enhancement increases the DCs as well. Though at 11th level you could even jack it up to a 6th level power at 11d6, but only 11 manifestations at 128 pp. So that’s 11d6, DC22 times 11, versus 10d6, DC 19 times 14. This is the problem that sticks in the craw of the people that say that psionics is an abuse of the system. And hey, they’re right! It is a system with no cap, since most of the powers are upgradeable by just pumping up the PP. The ability to upgrade your power as a higer power without the slots. So to make the system… erm, likable? Balanced? Anyways, people are saying it needs a cap, like the others have a cap. It’s just finding a cap that will fill the need that’s the problem.
Sure. Psions can last a bit longer in overkill mode, as they can use all their power for high-level stuff, while the wizard cannot use his lower-level slot for higher-level magic.
But if you introduce HP burn for manifesting, you just switch it around: Psions have to be sticklers with their power points, while wizards can merrily unload their two or three highest spell levels and call for an early rest.
Plus, while it is certainly true that manifesters can turn their lower-level powers almost into higher-level powers with improved DCs (real higher-level powers usually have other perks, like better areas of effect etc), it's also true that they have to put more power points into it to be more effective!
Damage spells scale all by themselves, to a certain extent - the wizard 10 can use his fireball instead of his cone of cold and still get his 10d6 - but damage powers must be cast with more PP in order to get that many damage dice - otherwise, the 3rd-level power will just deal 5d6 damage.
Exactly. A Psion is extremely powerful in a '15-minutes day' adventure (like a single random daily encounter in the wilderness during a travel), where they can 'Go Nova' with all of their power - even the lousy 1st-level ones.
(just to point out, a 1st-level power cast with, let's say, 9 power points, IS STILL a 1st-level power, not a 5th-level one. Look on the Official FAQ under the header 'Powers: General Power Questions')
But, in a full-fledged adventure (let's say, a typical dungeon-crawling), a Psion has to be extremely careful not to burn all his Power Points in a single encounter just to be 'on par' with the damage of a fellow Wizard or Sorcerer.
I apparently failed my Perception check when looking this up. Thankes Wraith! This should be something you should point out to the PFRPG design team.
Actualy, this is an official rule (although a bit hidden):page 154:
provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher.
To cast a spell (...)
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Exactly. A Psion is extremely powerful in a '15-minutes day' adventure (like a single random daily encounter in the wilderness during a travel), where they can 'Go Nova' with all of their power - even the lousy 1st-level ones.
Um, just to clarify. A first level psion going nova can spend... 1 point per power, unless he wants to overchannel himself to death.
I apparently failed my Perception check when looking this up. Thankes Wraith! This should be something you should point out to the PFRPG design team.
Thanks, but, you see, it's THE Wraith...
- sigh - it seems that nobody notices it...
Wait, perhaps it's because my name really works !
A wraith going unnoticed...
;)
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I think that Psionics should be kept as it is. It's a great system that truly works for the first time since Psionics became part of D&D.
Sure, the system can be abused (like the core rules), but this is a problem that should be solved by the DM, not by the rules.
If there has to be a cap, I'd do it in a way that limits the pp that can be used to augment the power. But I wouldn't like this. I played a psion for a whole campaign (from lvl 1 to 19) and it didn't feel overpowered. I had lots of Psionic characters in the games I DMed - side by side with spellcasters - and they weren't as stellar as eveybody fears they could be. Of course, they can be, but I never witnessed situations in which this actually happened. Most players of psions will spend their pp's carefully, like most spellcasters will spend their spells carefully, because they'd be f***ed, if they'd expend all their pp's to blast away a foe in the middle of the adventure and try to make it to the end without any powers! The "all at once" situation could happen in an endfight, but normally a psion won't have many pp's left at this stage of the adventure.
Sure, if a DM allows resting everywhere like in Neverwinter Nights, the system will feel broken, but this is also the case with the spellcasting classes.
So, I agree with everything Matthew Morris said! :-)
(just to point out, a 1st-level power cast with, let's say, 9 power points, IS STILL a 1st-level power, not a 5th-level one. Look on the Official FAQ under the header 'Powers: General Power Questions')
But, in a full-fledged adventure (let's say, a typical dungeon-crawling), a Psion has to be extremely careful not to burn all his Power Points in a single encounter just to be 'on par' with the damage of a fellow Wizard or Sorcerer.
Strictly speaking, sure, and there are a few powers that follow this idea. However, a lot of the augmentable powers have a DC increase associated with the extra PP cost of an augment and that, in practice, makes it a 'higher level' power.
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OK, since I couldn't find any discussion about Psionics within the Beta section, I've decided to start my own (wasn't that nice of me?). I'm hoping to get some serious feedback on this and will probably be posting feedback on what has been placed on the older threads. Psionics have in the past gotten a serious crapper put on them for various reasons that, while some reasonings are deserved, some are not, but in the interest of being fair I've looked at the system and tinkered around with it to hopefully adjust some of the major concerns that abound about the present 3.5 system (*cough*overclocking*cough*)
Probably one of the main mechanical problems that people have with the psionic system is it's lack of a weakness; being able to blast away with your highest level powers round after round after round and at mid to high levels, not really caring about such an action. Inexperienced players with psionics would certainly do this as they want to put a beastie that just surprised them down hard and fast. The arcane players (Bard, Sor/Wiz types) have to carefully plan what they want to cast as they want to save their big guns for whatever BBEG is ahead. Whether this would happen in your campaign or not is not the question, it's all a problem of what could happen. Experienced Psionic characters know that they wouldn't want to do this, but it's the fact that it CAN happen is the problem with the overclocking issue. So a limiter of some type must be put in place.
However, rejoice! For I have found your solution for this problem, one that can be unique to the Pathfinder Psion. It's simple: for every Power point spent on a power of whatever source, an equal amount of non-lethal damage is applied to the character. Suddenly pumping out all those high-level powers doesn't seem too appealing does it, especially if you can end up unconscious real quick from abusing your powers too much.
Seriously, fantasy novels are full of channelers who use up too much power and promptly pass out from doing too much. As your level...
This sounds a lot like GURPS to me. GURPS powers both Magic & Psionics with the same battery.
One of the reasons that system works is because they use the same system.
I don't think the non-lethal system would work because it is too easy to recover from.
So, let me ask this? Why does Psionis use a Point System & Spellcasters use the "Slot system"? I have run Psionics in my 3.0 & now retconned 3.5/Pathfinder game & find Psionics too be quite a bit stronger then magic due to it's flexibility.
I am not looking to cause a problem, I am looking for some thoughts & feedback.
Strictly speaking, sure, and there are a few powers that follow this idea. However, a lot of the augmentable powers have a DC increase associated with the extra PP cost of an augment and that, in practice, makes it a 'higher level' power.
Of course, I was merely speaking of the immunities of some monsters/spells (Globe of Invulnerabilty as an example). You are absolutely right about Save DCs.
So, let me ask this? Why does Psionis use a Point System & Spellcasters use the "Slot system"? I have run Psionics in my 3.0 & now retconned 3.5/Pathfinder game & find Psionics too be quite a bit stronger then magic due to it's flexibility.
I haven't found a psion to be much more flexible than a sorcerer (or a beguiler or warmage); they both "cast" spontaneously and have a limited number of "spells known" per level.
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So, let me ask this? Why does Psionis use a Point System & Spellcasters use the "Slot system"? I have run Psionics in my 3.0 & now retconned 3.5/Pathfinder game & find Psionics too be quite a bit stronger then magic due to it's flexibility.I haven't found a psion to be much more flexible than a sorcerer (or a beguiler or warmage); they both "cast" spontaneously and have a limited number of "spells known" per level.
Thank you for your respose hogarth,
1) Psions have a pool of points to draw from. They can use these points at 17 each to manifest multiple 9th level powers or use thier 1st level powers (at 1 point each)17 times.
2) A Sorceror by comparison can cast each spell slot a limited amount of times and even with all his slots converted to Magic Missiles he still only gets 5 missiles doing 1d4+1 damage or burning hands for 5d4. Psions have a cap equal to thier level, magic-users have limits by spell level
3) Psions can boost thier DC's (on some powers) or add metapsionic feats on the fly. magic-users cannot (Unless they take longer to cast in the case of a Sorceror.)
Thanks again!
Of course, I was merely speaking of the immunities of some monsters/spells (Globe of Invulnerabilty as an example). You are absolutely right about Save DCs.
Strictly speaking, sure, and there are a few powers that follow this idea. However, a lot of the augmentable powers have a DC increase associated with the extra PP cost of an augment and that, in practice, makes it a 'higher level' power.
You're right, of course, The Waif, but I'd say that the DCs are the main advantage here. Those spells and monster abilities are rare enough.
I haven't found a psion to be much more flexible than a sorcerer (or a beguiler or warmage); they both "cast" spontaneously and have a limited number of "spells known" per level.
Psions get more powers known than sorcerers, and the powers are often more flexible - with energy powers, you get to choose what sort of energy you use, for example, and the animal affinity power is a six-pack of buff spells all rolled into one.
They only went the wrong way with telekinesis, for some reason.
Now that I think about it, I forgot about how much the feat structure differed for magic and psionics which helps in itself. Let's take an evoker vs. a kineticist. The evoker in his feat structure can pick up Spell focus and Greater spell focus. This means that the evoker's fireballs are keeping up with a kineticist 10pp energy balls. Psions don't have a similar feat, the closest being +1 and +2 to DC (don't remember the names) to power up a single power essentially (because the feat requires the expenditure of power focus). Even the psionic version of spell penetration requires the use of a psionic focus. Yes, psions are good at going nova, but when they don't, a comparatively built 3.5 wizard or sorcerer can outrun them at what they do.
Also, the psion that has gone nova and used the 12 10d6 energy balls has 7pps. The sorcerer that has done the same thing with fireball still has 8 1st level spells, 8 2nd level spells, and cantrips at will. Not the best thing in the world, but still enough to do things. 7pp? Not so much because of the structure.
To The Wraith: I understand that it's not heighten spell per say, it's actually much, much worse, but it was the most comparable thing I could think of.
I wonder if there's a way that they could rely less on going nova. Would it maybe be possible to have part of the progression for caster level effects automatic and the other half paid for by pp? This would also allow the unlinking of damage and DC.
For example, the description of energy ball might look like this.
Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You create an explosion of energy of the chosen type that deals 7d6 points of damage to every creature or object within the area. This damage increases by 1d6 per 2 manifester levels you have above 7th. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
...
Augment:
You may spend 1pp to increase the damage done by this power by 1d6. You may also spend 1pp to increase the DC. You cannot spend more pp to increase the DC than you spent to increase the damage. You also cannot increase the damage beyond 1d6 per manifester level.
For the people who played the psion as before, there is no effective change. However, it's now not as necessary to go nova just to keep up with damage. I think part of the going nova is because that was the only way to keep up.
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I think the at wills should be a little different than the 'blast at will style' and tied in with the psionic focus
Egotist: Automatically stabalize when focused, can spend focus to heal 1d4 points of damage, plus 1 point per 2 levels.
Kineticist: Ray of force, 1d4 force damage, plus 1 point per 3 levels. 30' + 10' level. Blow focus to make it 100'+10' level.
Nomad: +10' enhancement to speed while focused, can spend focus to teleport 10' +5' level as a swift action.
Seer: Can always act in the surprise round, still considered flat footed, can blow focus as an immediate action to get a +1 on insight saves, +1 per 4 levels.
Shaper, not sure
Telepath: Telepathy with one creature range 30' +10' level. Can spend focus to 'mass brodcast' to all creatures in range.
Oooo, I totally forgot all about the focus. Thanks for reminding me, Mr. Morris. Does anyone else here find that a bit clunky to use effectively, or is it just me? I freely admit it could just be me. I also agree with you on not just putting in only 'blast at will' (poor Will, poor, poor Will) style... uh... anyone got any idea what we could call the 0-level powers a la cantrips? Emissions... no, that might be taken the wrong way. Anyone else got any ideas? I can't see 0-levels growing with the character, though, but has possibilities with the focus-'blowing' idea. And the Egoist would have to be something different for the same reason Paizo removed Cure Minor Wounds from orisons.
To Kamai - what do you think of eliminating the DC change altogether? Leave in the damage increase, sure, even if the DC to save is relatively low.
To Etales -
I don't think the non-lethal system would work because it is too easy to recover from.
So you think that it should be lethal? Even I wasn't that harsh.
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To Kamai - what do you think of eliminating the DC change altogether? Leave in the damage increase, sure, even if the DC to save is relatively low.
Sorry, I'm not Karmai, but I'd like to answer this. Don't do this, it's nonsense! :-) What's the point in wasting away pp's if there's only little chance of affecting the target because of a weak DC? I wouldn't want a change like this; it's making the whole augment-mechanic nearly useless.
Psions get more powers known than sorcerers[..]
Count them. The number really isn't much different.
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0 levels in the PsiHB (3.0, also known as 'how to roll a 1 on game design') were called talents. Most of them were folded up into level 1 powers.
Oh, figured out the Shaper power
Shaper: Can manifest a bolt of semisolid ectoplasm, doing 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage, +1 per 2 levels. Can spend focus to empower the attack.
Oh and Kaeyos, a 20th level psion knows 36 powers from levels 1-9, the sorcerer knows 34 spells levels 1-9, plus 9 cantrips. A Wilder knows, by contrast, 11.
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Oooo, I totally forgot all about the focus. Thanks for reminding me, Mr. Morris. Does anyone else here find that a bit clunky to use effectively, or is it just me? I freely admit it could just be me. I also agree with you on not just putting in only 'blast at will' (poor Will, poor, poor Will) style... uh... anyone got any idea what we could call the 0-level powers a la cantrips? Emissions... no, that might be taken the wrong way. Anyone else got any ideas? I can't see 0-levels growing with the character, though, but has possibilities with the focus-'blowing' idea. And the Egoist would have to be something different for the same reason Paizo removed Cure Minor Wounds from orisons.
To Kamai - what do you think of eliminating the DC change altogether? Leave in the damage increase, sure, even if the DC to save is relatively low.
To Etales -
I don't think the non-lethal system would work because it is too easy to recover from.So you think that it should be lethal? Even I wasn't that harsh.
Fopalup, I do not think it should be lethal damage. I think the mechanic won't work as non-lethal. I stand by my comment that a point based system next to the "traditional" magic system of magic-users has never worked. It didn't mesh well in 1st edition, It certainly dominated in 2nd edition & both 3.X versions are still bolt ons.
Just my opinion.
Thank you!
Sorry, I'm not Karmai, but I'd like to answer this. Don't do this, it's nonsense! :-) What's the point in wasting away pp's if there's only little chance of affecting the target because of a weak DC? I wouldn't want a change like this; it's making the whole augment-mechanic nearly useless.To Kamai - what do you think of eliminating the DC change altogether? Leave in the damage increase, sure, even if the DC to save is relatively low.
Now Absinth, I've discussed this before. The correct response is 'You're crazy!' ;) I don't know about useless, usually if you have enough levels to augment a lower level damaging power, you have a higher level damaging power anyways, so the DC augmenting mostly isn't necessary.
To Matthew Morris - Talents. Thank you!!! Totally forgot about them. And instead of a damaging spell, how about something like unseen servant, have your own little slimer peon carrying your stuff (ew! that sack of coins are all slimy!)
The DC thing is a two-edged sword:
If augmentation increases the DCs, they almost have a lot of high-level powers (DC is not everything there is to higher levels, though it is a big deal), but if they don't, the lower-level powers will be virtually useless - why pay 17 power points (more or less the equivalent of a 9th-level slot) for a 3rd-level power if you can get a 9th-level power for the same amount.
It's like saying that sorcerers would have to pay for fireballs with 9th-level slots.
Count them. The number really isn't much different.
Psions get more powers known than sorcerers[..]
The numbers alone don't tell the whole picture. No, it's draw the whole story.
Anyway, my point is that powers are often more versatile than spells, which is an advantage.
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The DC thing is a two-edged sword:
If augmentation increases the DCs, they almost have a lot of high-level powers (DC is not everything there is to higher levels, though it is a big deal), but if they don't, the lower-level powers will be virtually useless - why pay 17 power points (more or less the equivalent of a 9th-level slot) for a 3rd-level power if you can get a 9th-level power for the same amount.
It's like saying that sorcerers would have to pay for fireballs with 9th-level slots.
Count them. The number really isn't much different.
Psions get more powers known than sorcerers[..]The numbers alone don't tell the whole picture. No, it's draw the whole story.
Anyway, my point is that powers are often more versatile than spells, which is an advantage.
Exactly.
To Kamai - what do you think of eliminating the DC change altogether? Leave in the damage increase, sure, even if the DC to save is relatively low.
I really don't like this idea in the same way I'm not a big fan of having to grab several spell slots to do the same thing, just with better caps and DCs. If you did this, you'd have to do far more to the system to take into account that it would be necessary to have these duplicates as powers known to do the same thing as a 3.5 psion would. The 36 powers known look comparable to a sorcerer until you remember the verstality. For example, in astral construct, the psion (or wilder) can do in 1 power what a sorcerer would need 9 different spells known to do. The wilder has 11 powers, but doesn't need a full round (or 8 spells) to be able to send a ball of fire, cold, sonic, or electricity. The powers known rely on being able to take different things, not copies of the same thing. If you start splitting the powers back up, without a DC augment, you have to almost just copy the sorcerer in the wilder, and the wizard in the psion, and at that point, why play a psion at all?
Just my 2cp.
Count them. The number really isn't much different.
Psions get more powers known than sorcerers[..]The numbers alone don't tell the whole picture. No, it's draw the whole story.
Anyway, my point is that powers are often more versatile than spells, which is an advantage.
If that was your point, then why did you muddy the waters by saying "psions get more powers known than sorcerers"?
;-)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I think psionics are great as-is. The only thing I'd add is an at-will power for psions and wilders, and I'd rewrite a few classes like the soulknife and the metamind.One feat that Unbound did get rid of was the one that let Psions cherry pick powers from Disciplines other than thier own. Certain other powers like Psionic Greater Teleport were moved to thier proper place as Discipline powers instead of general.
Why was that so daunting? And what is this Psionics Unbound? Is it Dreamscarred Press?
I'll disagree with 'their propper place' Or do you support revising the magic system so all the 'good spells' (magic missile, scortching ray come immediately to mind) are restricted to their specialists? Or (ala Arcana Evolved) a feat to access a single spell.
Remember, there is no such thing as a generalist wizard in psionics (well, except the Erudite, but that's closed content)
Also, picking psionic powers is more of a science (pun intended) than picking sorcerer spells. The sorcerer can pick sleep, then swap it out at 5th level, where its usefullness starts dropping. The psion has to keep Mind Thrust (which while its high damage looks good, the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor and all-or-nothing damage, makes it drastically less useful at higher levels, even with scaling save)
Quick note on this, dealing with Animal Affinity. You pay for that flexibility. Under the school of "you can't benefit from the same spell twice", one casting of Animal affinity boosts one trait at a time. If the fighter has animal affinity manifested on him once, boosting his strength, he cannot benefit from the second manifestation to boost his, say, dexterity.
Do you have a reference for that rule? I know it from DDM, but not from D&D.
Exactly. A Psion is extremely powerful in a '15-minutes day' adventure (like a single random daily encounter in the wilderness during a travel), where they can 'Go Nova' with all of their power - even the lousy 1st-level ones.
(just to point out, a 1st-level power cast with, let's say, 9 power points, IS STILL a 1st-level power, not a 5th-level one. Look on the Official FAQ under the header 'Powers: General Power Questions')
But, in a full-fledged adventure (let's say, a typical dungeon-crawling), a Psion has to be extremely careful not to burn all his Power Points in a single encounter just to be 'on par' with the damage of a fellow Wizard or Sorcerer.
Agreed. I have seen a psion burn through power points and leave himself weak for the rest of the game session. He misjudged the danger level, impressively used a lot of powers to little effect and was left weak for the rest of the session. The player even jokes about his character's stamina and lack of performance.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Do you have a reference for that rule? I know it from DDM, but not from D&D.
Quick note on this, dealing with Animal Affinity. You pay for that flexibility. Under the school of "you can't benefit from the same spell twice", one casting of Animal affinity boosts one trait at a time. If the fighter has animal affinity manifested on him once, boosting his strength, he cannot benefit from the second manifestation to boost his, say, dexterity.
I've never heard of it either.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Agreed. I have seen a psion burn through power points and leave himself weak for the rest of the game session. He misjudged the danger level, impressively used a lot of powers to little effect and was left weak for the rest of the session. The player even jokes about his character's stamina and lack of performance.
I ususally divide my psion's points by five as an 'encounter budget'
As an aside, my psychic warrior found vigour to be the best power ever. Anytime he manifested it at full strength, he'd never get hit the entire combat :(
Personally one of the things I liked about the EPH was the ditching of level zero powers. I don't think that Psionics should get the freebies associated with level Zero magic as all psi power should represent an effort on the part of the mindcaster. I really don't think much needs to be done save for bringing HPs into line with the Pathfinder rhythms and a slight tweaking of the toolset. I would take a look at Psionics Unbound which made some significant reforms over the system and the bulk of it is OGL.
I don't see why arcanists should get cantrips, then. Using arcane magic should also be an effort on the part of the individual, since you're still telling the laws of reality to "sit down and shut up."
Psionics should really have 0th level powers because no one in their right mind would fill up their limited powers known with detect psionics, for example. There are powers that are just not worth the level they're at without 0th level abilities.
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Personally one of the things I liked about the EPH was the ditching of level zero powers. I don't think that Psionics should get the freebies associated with level Zero magic as all psi power should represent an effort on the part of the mindcaster. I really don't think much needs to be done save for bringing HPs into line with the Pathfinder rhythms and a slight tweaking of the toolset. I would take a look at Psionics Unbound which made some significant reforms over the system and the bulk of it is OGL.I don't see why arcanists should get cantrips, then. Using arcane magic should also be an effort on the part of the individual, since you're still telling the laws of reality to "sit down and shut up."
Psionics should really have 0th level powers because no one in their right mind would fill up their limited powers known with detect psionics, for example. There are powers that are just not worth the level they're at without 0th level abilities. [/QUOTE
So, Psions don't tell the universe to "Sit down & shut up"? I am not trying to be difficult, I just don't see why less powers = they should get them free? But, Wizards shouldn't?
Has anyone looked at Psionics Ascendant from Daemoneye Publishing? It is still a point based system but it has some advantages in my opinion over the EPH.
One of the things I had tried out in early 3.0 was a Sorcerer Variant to build a Psionic Character. It worked out within the system since everyone was using the same system & there are a number of spells that are traditional "Psionic" effects.
Any thoughts?
As an aside, my psychic warrior found vigour to be the best power ever. Anytime he manifested it at full strength, he'd never get hit the entire combat :(
The psion in my group has that problem with Moment of Prescience.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Etales,
I believe the argument was that someone said psions shouldn't get the unlimited talents (that's what zero levels were called in 3.0) like arcanists get cantrips or divine wielders get orisons. The reply was essentially 'mages and clerics aren't bending reality?'
And detect psionics, burst, catfall, and a few other level 1 powers belong back in the zero catagory.
As an aside, my psychic warrior found vigour to be the best power ever. Anytime he manifested it at full strength, he'd never get hit the entire combat :(The psion in my group has that problem with Moment of Prescience.
"Come on, stop trying to hit me and hit me!"
Sorry couldn't help myself.
Etales,
I believe the argument was that someone said psions shouldn't get the unlimited talents (that's what zero levels were called in 3.0) like arcanists get cantrips or divine wielders get orisons. The reply was essentially 'mages and clerics aren't bending reality?'
And detect psionics, burst, catfall, and a few other level 1 powers belong back in the zero catagory.
Pretty much, yeah. If it's good for the arcanists and divine casters, it's good enough for psions. If you want to argue that mind mages shouldn't have 0th level powers because they're having to expend some effort, the same should be argued for arcanists and divine casters. Magic should be hard, no matter what you do. If we're keeping 0th level spells, there should be 0th level powers. It's one of the only issues I have with psionics (that and finding a good PrC for them, aside from Thrallherd...)