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Pretty much, yeah. If it's good for the arcanists and divine casters, it's good enough for psions. If you want to argue that mind mages shouldn't have 0th level powers because they're having to expend some effort, the same should be argued for arcanists and divine casters. Magic should be hard, no matter what you do. If we're keeping 0th level spells, there should be 0th level powers. It's one of the only issues I have with psionics (that and finding a good PrC for them, aside from Thrallherd...)Etales,
I believe the argument was that someone said psions shouldn't get the unlimited talents (that's what zero levels were called in 3.0) like arcanists get cantrips or divine wielders get orisons. The reply was essentially 'mages and clerics aren't bending reality?'
And detect psionics, burst, catfall, and a few other level 1 powers belong back in the zero catagory.
I agree that if & when Psionics is included they need thier talents back and they should be free as they are for Arcane & Divine casters. I must have missed one along the way, I apologize.
Ok, so I'm gonna stick my oar in again and suggest something new. Just to throw it out there. How about a 'path' type setup, in regards to the powers. Now hear me out on this. One thing I have always found somewhat odd. A character chooses a Discipline and gains access to those special powers of that discipline. OK, so far so good. The player then picks other powers, whether from his discipline or not, to round out his character. All right, fine. Now as the character progresses, he is able to choose additional powers. However there are a lot of powers to choose from and a lot has to be ignored. I've always had a problem with suddenly being able to choose a, for example, 5th level power, without having any previous powers from that discipline being drawn upon. So I'm proposing having to learn lower level powers in a discipline before you gain access to the higher level ones. At the very least learning A lower level power before gaining the higher level ones.
Thoughts?
BTW, I am all for the 0-level powers, or talents, being implemented. Love the idea. Now how should they work? Should it be a extremely limited number known, or multiple talents known but only able to manifest a couple a day?
Why should a psion be limited in this way, when Arcane and Divine Casters aren't? Pointless ways to gimp psions will not help - to be honest, all classes are getting a bump across the board with Pathfinder - so why would the "solution" to psionics be to GIMP them?
I can agree that with the casters getting access to cantrips and orisons freely, there should be some equivalency amongst psionics. My suggestion would be to utilize the psionic focus mechanic and allow a character with psionic focus to manifest certain powers at 0 initial cost.
//Andreas Rönnqvist, Dreamscarred Press
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I don't mind that Psions don't have Talents or 0-Lvl powers. Though, I wouldn't complain if these get added, but I don't see the need. I don't want the Psions to be tooo similar to arcanists and clerics. I always liked it, that the Psion uses a different mechanic for his powers and so having no 0-Lvl stuff would be fine with me.
The request for power-chains is understandable and would feel "logic" in-game, but I'm afraid that with this mechanic, all Psions of a certain discipline would nearly look the same as all would take the necessary powers to get access to certain other, higher lvl powers.
I really like it to customize my Psion and choose the powers that suits him best and I would find it really, really boring if the powers that I'll choose when leveling up are all selected by default.
I hope I don't start off a words-war with this, but I'm going to play Devil's (Asmodeus') Advocate here. Can you explain to me why you think they shouldn't be 'gimped' in some way, shape or form? And no, this is not just aimed at Stormhierta, I just like the word he used. All detractors of Psionics, and even those who honestly look at 3.5 psionics realize it's slightly overbalanced. When played a certain way it works, but most players and dm's just starting don't know the limits and can quickly become frustrated with the system, and thus become detractors, saying the system doesn't work (what they mean is it doesn't work for their style of play). Most of us who have become proficient in using Psionic characters have done so using trial and error (oh look, I'm out of PPs! Better pull out the crossbow.). Once we get the hang of it, Psionics quickly becomes our favorite system of play because of it's versatility, and let's face it, it's power.
Most arguments given by pro-psionics go along the lines of "wizards/sorcerers/clerics/magic-users could do the same as psionicists." Let's face facts. Those magic-users have limits put on them, spells/level/day being the most significant. Psionicists do not have this. They DO have limited powers known, but so do sorcerers, and honestly, with their augment ability and versatility, most 1st level powers could be considered 2nd level, 3rd level, and so on all the way up to 9th. By the time you reach the upper levels you can effectively have 20+ of your highest level powers at your disposal at any time, while the magic-using players have, what, 4 of their highest for wizards, 6 for sorcerers (not counting the fact they may only KNOW 3), and so on.
The versatility of the augment, not to mention the 'elemental-swap' for energy powers (which again the magic-users don't have), is the major plus that psionicists have. Do magic users have an equivalent? If so I don't see it. Do psionicists have a negative, or a con to go with all the pros of choosing them? I don't see that either. Power points may be limited, but are comparable to the magic-users spells and can be manipulated in ways magic-users could never dream of. Given the non-themed choice between psionicist and any of the various magic-users, I will pick the psionicist every time. Every time. That indicates an imbalance to me.
A 'gimp' of some kind, or 'limiter', or 'balancer', or something just seems fair, IMO.
Now, all of this observation is based on the 3.5 ruleset for both Psionics and magic-users. Pathfinder may have brought up magic-users to the level of psionicists, in that their pluses and minuses roughly bring them up to the level where a player would be able to go, 'what should I choose?' and not immediately go 'Psionicist!' Maybe there is absolutely no need for a fix, as everything balances out now. I'm hoping that Paizo staff keep a close look at this thread when they are considering Psionics so they can make an informed choice of what, if anything, needs changing. Does anything need changing?
Stormhierta - the psionic focus is a neat idea. Maybe a feat could be used for this if the entire 0-level idea is scrapped, where you get a power per feat.
Cherez - it took me a couple read-throughs on your thought to get what you are saying. I'm slow that way and haven't gotten enough sleep. However, looks like a neat alternate system, a lot would have to be changed by its nature, unless you have a hard-and-fast rule in mind.
Absinth - the point about flavor is a good one, I think. Arcanists and Psionicists are different and should be treated differently. Maybe going with what Stormhierta suggested above with the focus is the way to go.
As far as your response to my earlier point, it is a fluff suggestion on my part that does affect mechanics. It's that in-game logic that appeals to me though. Honestly it's just an idea that popped into my head and I threw it out there to see what people thought. Thanks!
The wu-jen class (the non-OGC version sadly) has some interesting ideas as far as focusing on a particular element would give you a bonus to your DC. I could see something like that working for a psion class, or a "Student of the Sixfold Path" class feature that allowed one to manifest another discipline's power a certain number of times per day.
A key point to remember (emphasis mine):
Many powers have variable effects based on the number of power points you spend when you manifest them. The more points spent, the more powerful the manifestation. How this extra expenditure affects a power is specific to the power. Some augmentations allow you to increase the number of damage dice, while others extend a power’s duration or modify a power in unique ways. Each power that can be augmented includes an entry giving how many power points it costs to augment and the effects of doing so. However, you can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level.
Augmenting a power takes place as part of another action (manifesting a power). Unless otherwise noted in the Augment section of an individual power description, you can augment a power only at the time you manifest it.
There's a built-in system to deter the BFG psion, and if they're out of power points when the BBEG stomps into the room, sucks to be them, doesn't it?
Something I have also done in my games is frequent "overpowering" leads to susceptibility to psionic maladies. This is something I also did for other spellcasters, for what it's worth.
I hope I don't start off a words-war with this, but I'm going to play Devil's (Asmodeus') Advocate here. Can you explain to me why you think they shouldn't be 'gimped' in some way, shape or form? And no, this is not just aimed at Stormhierta, I just like the word he used. All detractors of Psionics, and even those who honestly look at 3.5 psionics realize it's slightly overbalanced. When played a certain way it works, but most players and dm's just starting don't know the limits and can quickly become frustrated with the system, and thus become detractors, saying the system doesn't work (what they mean is it doesn't work for their style of play). Most of us who have become proficient in using Psionic characters have done so using trial and error (oh look, I'm out of PPs! Better pull out the crossbow.). Once we get the hang of it, Psionics quickly becomes our favorite system of play because of it's versatility, and let's face it, it's power.
Most arguments given by pro-psionics go along the lines of "wizards/sorcerers/clerics/magic-users could do the same as psionicists." Let's face facts. Those magic-users have limits put on them, spells/level/day being the most significant. Psionicists do not have this. They DO have limited powers known, but so do sorcerers, and honestly, with their augment ability and versatility, most 1st level powers could be considered 2nd level, 3rd level, and so on all the way up to 9th. By the time you reach the upper levels you can effectively have 20+ of your highest level powers at your disposal at any time, while the magic-using players have, what, 4 of their highest for wizards, 6 for sorcerers (not counting the fact they may only KNOW 3), and so on.
The versatility of the augment, not to mention the 'elemental-swap' for energy powers (which again the magic-users don't have), is the major plus that psionicists have. Do magic users have an equivalent? If so I don't see it. Do psionicists have a negative, or a con to go with all the pros of choosing them? I don't see that either....
Sorry, but i honesty feel this is not true. Having to pay extra points to increase a power isn't "versitality". If you applied this to arcane classes, wizards and sorcerers would have to use up higher level spell slots just to cast a fireball which did 10D6 damage instead of 5D6. Psions get the option to use their abilities to their full power or weeakened versions...and they pay heavily for it.
Swapping out energy is nice, but hardly overpowering (not to mention that there are metamagic feats which do the same for arcanists). When is this really an issue though? I've never seen a creature only vurnurble to a single energy type, and if blasting is your character's forte, he/she should have access to multiple energy spells anyway.
The truth is, arcanists -can- do everything a psionic class does, and better. Got to any forum topic regardnig a "problem spell" and you'll see the grand list of overpowering spells for arcanists.
And lastly, psions suffer from the same problem's sorcerers do. Unlike the wizard, they have a limited number of piosnic powers they can learn, a wizard can learn just about any spell they want. This alone makes wizards a formidable force as they can adapt to any situation easily. Have you ever seen a cleric/druid/wizard perpere for a foe they know is comming? It can be the most devestating thing I've ever seen in an Roleplaying game. Psions, like sorcerers, cannot specifically tailor their powers for the foes they fight.
Truthfully, I feel psionics are actually underpowered. Compare them to the classes they'll be competeing against. I think a wizard could easily out-do a psion, I think a sorcerer could easily out-do a wilder (which suffer an extreme version of the "I don't know many powers" problem I pointed out. The weakest spontainous caster in the entire realm of D'n'D I beleive is the Hexblade, who can still master twice as many spells as wilder's can powers.) I feel that clerics/druids could out-do psychic warriors (Who don't even gain 9th level powers like the druid or cleric) and that well...I suppose out of the core classes the closet to a magical warrior would be the paladin or ranger, and I feel both out-match the soulknife easily.
To argue that "they're powerful if played in a certain way" is true...but then again, the same applies to every class in D'n'D.
I have to agree with Nero on this. Psionics are slightly weaker than casters in my experience. And I love to play both. The system is extremely well balanced, more so than magic. Most of the complaints I have heard about overpowered psionics have turned out to involve a misundertanding of or misinterpretation of the psionics rules. I can think of at least twice when someone killed psionics for their campaign because they used an optional rule that they didn't really want or they didn't understand the mechanics of it and the player took advantage of that ignorance to get ahead. That's not the rules fault. The rules are good.
Something I have also done in my games is frequent "overpowering" leads to susceptibility to psionic maladies. This is something I also did for other spellcasters, for what it's worth.
Coo1! How did you define that in your game? This would be something I would want to try out, as it only affects those who are liable to abuse the system. Even works for spellcasters, eh? Color me interested!
Something I have also done in my games is frequent "overpowering" leads to susceptibility to psionic maladies. This is something I also did for other spellcasters, for what it's worth.Coo1! How did you define that in your game? This would be something I would want to try out, as it only affects those who are liable to abuse the system. Even works for spellcasters, eh? Color me interested!
A lot of it was very heavily influenced by what was going on in my campaign at the time, mind you, but the gist of it is, keep track when one or more of the following occurs:
1.) Any time metamagic feats are used to charge a spell two levels or more higher than its normal level
2.) Any time metapsionic feats are used to improve a power that results in an additional power point cost of four or more
3.) Any time a power is augmented for more than half of its original point cost
When five or more of these "overburn" points are accrued, I have the player make a Will save (or I make it secretly if I want to spring it on them), the DC equal 10 plus how many "overburn" points they've accrued. If they make the save, then they lose 1d6 points of overburn and don't risk contracting a malady. Failure indicates they have contracted a malady, and the DC of said disease or malady is increased by how many overburn points said character has. If the character successfully saves twice against the disease, then they lose 1d6 points of overburn.
If you want to be a real bastard, increase the initial save DC by 5 or more, and make a "Malady X" disease that's communicable by touch and spellcasting. >:)
A lot of it was very heavily influenced by what was going on in my campaign at the time, mind you, but the gist of it is, keep track when one or more of the following occurs: (SNIP)
Man, that's brutal. That would've ended our psychic warrior pretty quickly. What with having no cleric and all....
Thanks for sharing!
Peace,
tfad
All right, so it's been pretty quiet here without any outrageous opinions placed by me to move it along. I think the other ideas have been talked out, thanks everyone for that. So how about a new discussion idea, such as...
What would you like to see developed for Pathfinder psionics? Obviously all the proponents of psionics feel that the system has little to no need of tweaking, but that is just the base system. What about other aspects of psionics, such as classes? Are the 4 main ones enough? Are they good within the Pathfinder world? I noticed a few of you had a problem with a couple of classes, notably the Soulknife. Here is a good time to mention Tallforadwarf's attempt at 'Path-ing' the psionics for us. Where is that link again, Tfad? I personally think that it won't be enough, especially with certain societies, even an entire world, based off psionics.
How about the psionic races? Should the races mentioned in Expanded Psionics (minus the giths and thai-kreen) be from Golarion, or somewhere else (anyone else see the Maenids in a slight Vulcan-esque way?)The Zephs seem like a good Deep-faring race. Elans could be from Castroval, maybe an exile off-shoot. Whatever Paizo does, it will have to add a fair amount of fluff for the crunch.
Can you explain to me why you think they shouldn't be 'gimped' in some way, shape or form? And no, this is not just aimed at Stormhierta, I just like the word he used. All detractors of Psionics, and even those who honestly look at 3.5 psionics realize it's slightly overbalanced. When played a certain way it works, but most players and dm's just starting don't know the limits and can quickly become frustrated with the system, and thus become detractors, saying the system doesn't work (what they mean is it doesn't work for their style of play). Most of us who have become proficient in using Psionic characters have done so using trial and error (oh look, I'm out of PPs! Better pull out the crossbow.). Once we get the hang of it, Psionics quickly becomes our favorite system of play because of it's versatility, and let's face it, it's power. Do psionicists have a negative, or a con to go with all the pros of choosing them? I don't see that either....
Ok, assuming spellcasters (Wizards) to be the basis from which we compare these "cons" (so we all know where I start from).
1. No existance of increased effect dependant on caster/manifester level. Arcane casters get a free boost of most of their spells for free, especially damage-based ones (such as Fireball). In essence, this is free augmentation, giving the spellcasters a much higher degree of "omph" for what they spend.
2. Forced specialisation. There are no "general Psions" with access to all the important "basic" powers. You are always specialized, which means that unless you're a Nomad you don't have access to utility powers such as Fly or Teleport. Unless you're a Kineticist, basic multi-target damage-dealing such as the Energy Missile, Cone or Ball is not available for you. Summoning is out of your league unless you're a Shaper and we could do this all day. Only way to access ONE of these powers is by spending a feat to get it.
3. No bonus from specialisation. While the Wizard has a choice of whether or not to specialize (and just the choice is nice), he also gains a benefit of one additional spell per spell-level. Does the Psion get it? No, ofcourse he doesn't get any BENEFITS from specializing.
4. No Metamagic bonanza. Want to apply four metamagic effects to one spell? Or even just two? Congratulations - caster can, with no trouble whatsoever. A psion would have to expend his psionic focus to attach a metapsionic feat, and since you only have one focus, you can only add one metapsionic feat. Oh, you COULD spend a bunch of feats to gain access to a second focus. Once again, more feat expenditure. And not only that, once we've spent that focus, we have to take a number of rounds to just get it (or them) back before we can redo that mighty trick (2 metapsionics effects at once... wow!).
5. No free familiar. Psions have a different kind of familiar (the psicrystal) but unlike Wizards, they have to pay one feat just to get access to it. Nice huh?
6. Limited Power Knowledge. A Wizard can learn as many spells as they have spellbooks and inclination for. This means that for any event, they generally have atleast one spell which will fix things for them or the group. A psion has roughly 2 powers known per level versus the limitless spells of a Wizard.
7. Limited Accessability. There are simply MORE spells, feats, items and prestige classes (and these are generally better too) available throughout the entire spectrum of books released by Wizards and 3rd Party Publishers.
This was just the Wizard comparison. Once we throw in the Divine casters, things get REALLY out of hand. Want a "con" list to that as well?
I still like the 2nd edition system, not many intant damage powers, ie fireball. a lot of spells that require sustaining, and you pay power points to sustain them.
yes the checks to get the powers off should go. but it was a system that felt different than a wizard. i never liked the conversion of the psion to a spell casting class, which is what it now is.
I've never heard of it either.Animal Affinity.Do you have a reference for that rule? I know it from DDM, but not from D&D.I remembered reading it months ago- I think in a Sage article- but couldn't find it again. Something about how a character can only benefit from one spell once. Sorry, I try to get good references, but this one eludes me.
If you look at the power, however, you can augment it in the way you can add another attribute to it, for 5 more points. Sense the power is a 3 point power, and a second casting would be cheaper...I can't thin of another reason why one +4 enhancement boost is usable by a 3rd level manifester, and two require a 8th level manifester. Actions are a powerful resource, but 5 levels?
Actually, it is a basic rule that the last manifestation of a power supercedes all other manifestations. So if you first manifest Animal Affinity (Strength) and then Animal Affinity (Dexterity), the second manifestation overwrites the first. Same thing with spells.
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I think psionics are great as-is. The only thing I'd add is an at-will power for psions and wilders, and I'd rewrite a few classes like the soulknife and the metamind.That's pretty much all I would do as well.
Add a cheap at will to match the at will cantrip capability of the other casters, either by assigning a specific 1st level power to be at will or letting them take one 1st level power to do at will.
I generally use their equivalent of Mage Hand, Empathy Biofeedback or similar first level powers that have the right flavor for whatever character we're talking about.
I'm going to convert the HPs then give each psion class an at will power or 1pp power, as long as they have focus and 1pp in their pool.
And the silence is deafening. :)
And the silence is deafening. :)
Silence from whom? What question are you expecting to get an answer for?
And the silence is deafening. :)Silence from whom? What question are you expecting to get an answer for?
Hehe, sorry - I guess the humor was lost in transition here. It was only a friendly bump and I felt like writing something ELSE than just... well... *bump* :D
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The wu-jen class (the non-OGC version sadly) has some interesting ideas as far as focusing on a particular element would give you a bonus to your DC. I could see something like that working for a psion class, or a "Student of the Sixfold Path" class feature that allowed one to manifest another discipline's power a certain number of times per day.
A key point to remember (emphasis mine):
Many powers have variable effects based on the number of power points you spend when you manifest them. The more points spent, the more powerful the manifestation. How this extra expenditure affects a power is specific to the power. Some augmentations allow you to increase the number of damage dice, while others extend a power’s duration or modify a power in unique ways. Each power that can be augmented includes an entry giving how many power points it costs to augment and the effects of doing so. However, you can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level.
Augmenting a power takes place as part of another action (manifesting a power). Unless otherwise noted in the Augment section of an individual power description, you can augment a power only at the time you manifest it.
There's a built-in system to deter the BFG psion, and if they're out of power points when the BBEG stomps into the room, sucks to be them, doesn't it?
Something I have also done in my games is frequent "overpowering" leads to susceptibility to psionic maladies. This is something I also did for other spellcasters, for what it's worth.
Did not dragon magazine have something similar for 3.0 Psionics? So that if you had the 'correct' feats and the psychic abilities you had some extra umphf.
After some talk over at the Psionic thread by Eric Mona, I got really interested in the numbers of the game. I wanted to see how they would correlate and compare to each other. This will probably be a few posts and will mention some ideas that I threw out there too, as well as some others I came up with. Like this idea, which has a Vancian/Psionics hybrid cap on the number of times per day you can manifest your highest level power. I used the Wizard/Cleric spells per day progression, since it is the closest to the Psionicists in when they gain access to powers.
Meanwhile psi4th manifests 3 powers augmented to 4 points (lets say energy missile with fire base) for 4d6+4 to up to 5 targets (Reflex DC 16 for half) = 18*3 = 54 damage and spending 12 pp leaving 11 pp. For the sake of this exercise lets use Energy Ray (using Fire again)(ranged touch, no save) and 11 pp and able to augment up to 3 points on this. That could be 3 uses at three pp and 1 use at two pp, and for this exercise will be. Essentially (3d6+3)*3 = 39-45 points of damage plus 2d6+2 for an additional 9. All told thats about 102-108 points of damage in 7 rounds (an average of 14.1-15.4 per round).
Given extra time, the psionicist can spread out the secondary shots to a maximum of 11 rounds for (1d6+1)*11 = 49-50 points, making the total even out at a total of 103-104 points over 14 rounds (an average of 7.4 per round).
Now without the hybrid, let's do what all the nay-sayers say that a psionicist would do, and blow it all at once. Again all the same stuff, with the psi4th manifesting 5 energy missiles at four pp (using Fire again)(ranged touch, no save)and 1 energy missile at 3 pp (using Fire again)(ranged touch, no save). That would come out to 4d6+4 to up to five targets, but we'll just use one, five times = 18*5 = 90 damage. Plus the 3d6+3 for the final which gives an additional 13-14 points giving a total 103-104 points of damage in [bold]6[/bold] rounds (average is 17.2-17.3 per round)
Now none of this is Paizo'ed, which would give the Wizard a couple bonus spells, one 2nd and one 1st, not to mention the cantrips (ray of frost, bzzzt, ray of frost, bzzzt, ad nauseum). But the extra spells (another scorching ray and magic missile) would bring the Wizards total up another 23 points for a total 100 points in 9 rounds (an average of 11.1 per round).
So at 4th level, I would consider a definate 'advantage' to the psion vs. the wizard. The Psion is , on average rolls, able to do more damage per round than the wizard can, and more damage overall. Wizards however are probably going to 'last longer' than Psions since players will invariably use as much damage as possible, to make sure the beastie goes down, since the faster they go down, the less they are able to try to hurt us (best defence is a good offence mentality).
This comparison does make a lot of assumptions, like the wizard only prepared damage-dealing spells, instead of any buff spells, like mage armor, or Cat's grace, which would drop their damage potential even more; although technically cantrips do have a couple of damaging spells, and arcane school powers gives more, so technically a wizard could keep doing damage all day, magic wise.