As part of our on-going attempts to return the Paizo boards the land of cookies and candy they once were, we've amended the messageboard rules located here. They now include the following line:
The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place.
There you have it. Being a jerk now violates our TOS.
Play nice and be nice.
|
As part of our on-going attempts to return the Paizo boards the land of cookies and candy they once were, we've amended the messageboard rules located here. They now include the following line:
The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place.
There you have it. Being a jerk now violates our TOS.
Play nice and be nice.
awesome
Very cool.
Crack down on the jerk factor and we have chocolate covered Elysium.
Mmmmm....chocolate
For you, my friend, brain-flavored chocolate even.
Where do we report incidentsof jerkitude? Or does wanting to report them count as jerkitude itself?
Where do we report incidentsof jerkitude? Or does wanting to report them count as jerkitude itself?
We could flag trolls and mean folx. Then the powers that be could decide for themselves what constitutes ass facery and take proper measures. I reccomend a head to toe skin flaying.
As part of our on-going attempts to return the Paizo boards the land of cookies and candy they once were, we've amended the messageboard rules located here. They now include the following line:
The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place.
Ok. Whew! It doesn't say jackass. That would clear the boards.
Ok. Whew! It doesn't say jackass. That would clear the boards.As part of our on-going attempts to return the Paizo boards the land of cookies and candy they once were, we've amended the messageboard rules located here. They now include the following line:
The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place.
Yeah. You remove the donkey chromosome my my cell structure and I collapse into goo.
Where do we report incidentsof jerkitude? Or does wanting to report them count as jerkitude itself?
Flag it and move on.
And I was --> this close <-- to getting Steve Martin to drop by.
Navin R. Johnson: Well I'm gonna to go then. And I don't need any of this. I don't need this stuff, and I don't need you. I don't need anything except this.
(picks up an ashtray)
Navin R. Johnson: And that's it and that's the only thing I need, is this. I don't need this or this. Just this ashtray. And this paddle game, the ashtray and the paddle game and that's all I need. And this remote control. The ashtray, the paddle game, and the remote control, and that's all I need. And these matches. The ashtray, and these matches, and the remote control and the paddle ball. And this lamp. The ashtray, this paddle game and the remote control and the lamp and that's all I need. And that's all I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one - I need this. The paddle game, and the chair, and the remote control, and the matches, for sure. And this. And that's all I need. The ashtray, the remote control, the paddle game, this magazine and the chair.
(walking outside)
Navin R. Johnson: And I don't need one other thing, except my dog.
(dog barks)
Navin R. Johnson: I don't need my dog.
For you, my friend, brain-flavored chocolate even.
What about chocolate-flavored brain? =D
For you, my friend, brain-flavored chocolate even.What about chocolate-flavored brain? =D
We're all out. Pistachio?
Nut.We're all out. Pistachio?For you, my friend, brain-flavored chocolate even.What about chocolate-flavored brain? =D
Why, sir, I am the very picture of normalcy.
|
As part of our on-going attempts to return the Paizo boards the land of cookies and candy they once were, we've amended the messageboard rules located here. They now include the following line:
The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place.
There you have it. Being a jerk now violates our TOS.
Play nice and be nice.
I'm cool with that.
The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place.
There you have it. Being a jerk now violates our TOS.
AHHH, MAN!!! This just isn't fair! IT'S MY NAME!
*sobbing*
IT'S MY NAME!!!
This must mean Logue is BANNED!
Huzzah!
Ok. Whew! It doesn't say jackass. That would clear the boards.Good thing we cleared that up.
Yah, I'm sure you were sweating bullets, eh.
That's one to my liking. No more beating around the bush - speak the language and be done with it.
It's like when the witches conjured up that demon from the dungeon dimensions (in a Discworld novel): They got three questions, and the demon would do his level best to interpret them in the best wish granter manner.
Two questions down, Granny Weatherwax asked: "What the hell is going on around here? And no messing around with words!"
This must mean Logue is BANNED!
Huzzah!
You nearly, *nearly*, by the breadth of a hair, had the bill for a new computer screen or two on your hands. Only my steely resolve kept me from spraying coffee all over them, and I'm sure that would have ruined them.
On a serious note, I have some questions:
What defines a jerk for this community?
If it's left undefined, it's hard for Terms of Service to do its job in deterring certain behaviors while permitting others. As a term, "jerk" much looser in its definition than such terms as "abuse," "profanity," "bigoted," "defame," and "harass." All those terms have a long legal, political, regulatory and historical context that provides definition to guide posters.
Who defines it?
A "jerk" is generally in the eye of the beholder and there's often little consensus. You and your friends think someone's a jerk. They and their friends think you are. So which group is right? That leads you right back to mob rule, which I submit is much worse for this community than a few jerks. After all, a community based on the free exchange of ideas really ought to have some tolerance for iconoclasts, eccentricity, monomania and dissent. (Especially a community of gamers.)
If it's the site owner who defines the terms, you're going to want to define your terms to preempt accusations of arbitrariness or abuse of power down the line. Define this now as defining it in the heat of the moment sets you up for rushed and emotional decision-making.
So what does YOUR definition of jerk mean BESIDES someone who "post[s] any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party; use[s] profanity or any type of vulgar speech; make[s] any bigoted, hateful or racially offensive statements; defame[s], abuse[s], stalk[s], harass[es] or threaten[s] others; advocate[s] illegal activity or discuss[es] illegal activities with the intent to commit them."
You'll note that all of those criteria are specific behaviors. "Jerk" is a description of character or intent, both of which are difficult to prove outside of an examination of a person's behavior. So what behavior does your understanding of a "jerk" do that is not part of the definition above?
And if "jerk" means "a person whose hurts the moderator's feelings or those of popular members of this community" (as I suspect it does), then I think you'll find that that definition leads to more trouble than it's worth when the inevitable mistake is made as it will produce justified accusations of arbitrariness, smothering of legitimate expression of dissent and abuse of power.
This is has been your Lawful advice for the thread.
What if i want to roleplay as a jerk and the other posters don't get the point and assume i am one ?
Does it mean my RP is full of awesomeness ?
Or does it mean i am actually a jerk ?
;)
Sure, it's the chaotic approach, not the the lawful one, and it requires a bit more fairness and competence from those who look into reports of bad behaviour.
But I think the Paizo guys are both capable and fair, so this is better than very specific prohibitions, since those are easier to circumvent and inspire people to defend their behaviour with semantics.
I like the jerk rule, in Paizo's hands.
And I'm sure we can mostly agree on what it means being a jerk. It's not that they'll have people arrested for borderline cases, anyway. If someone is a bit too offensive, he'll still get a mild reprove, with public beheadings reserved for the same people who'd have hanged under the old law, too.
|
I'm not convinced this is a good rule. On the one hand, personal attacks are discouraged and may even result in bans eventually. On the other, Paizo mods will end up, in using this rule, calling some posters 'jerks'. Whilst obviously the mods have the power and Paizo runs the boards and can do whatever they want, I don't think that this rule, as phrased (as an insult) makes a lot of tactical sense.
Personally, I don't mind if people are jerks or mean to each other, as I have said before, but it's not my board so I (personally) accept the fact of Paizo's moderation even if I don't agree with it or the way that it's expressed, which has at times seemed to me to be embracing confrontation -- which has an obvious and inevitable result, given that the mods have the power -- rather than changing poster behaviour. It seems to me that taking someone that's acting a particular way, that people who aren't mods or representing Paizo might call 'jerkish', and saying 'hey man, you're in breach of the "don't be a jerk rule"' is effectively the same as saying 'you're a jerk and I'm a mod so I can say that, so suck it'. I don't care on a personal level -- it's not offensive to me and won't offend me if it's used against me -- but I am unconvinced that I'd pursue this course myself, if my aim was to get people play nice without the appearance of macho internet johnson-measuring backed by the banhammer. Again, personally, I think that all the Paizo folks are well-intentioned, so this is not an accusation of malicious intent so much as a difference in opinion as to the best execution.
This rule, albeit a bit vague, helps us to better correct the style of poster who doesn't necessarily violate our TOS but pushes the boundaries a lot with a passive-aggressive, mean-spirited, and habitually angry posting style. Our messageboards aren't therapy--you're not going to work anything out here by being aggressive and angry with the other denizens. People can disagree with us, with each other, with the world and do it politely. Inability to disagree with someone politely, as the children like to say, is epic fail.
Chief Technical Officer
|
If we wanted to be arbitrary, we wouldn't even bother having rules. But when you combine rules and gamers, it's inevitable that somebody will try to follow the letter of the rules while throwing the spirit of the rules out the window. But this isn't a game—the spirit of the rules are far more important here than the actual codification.
The bottom line is that we reserve the right to ask people to leave the community if we think that they're routinely making it a less pleasant place, and the "don't be a jerk" rule is, we believe, a way to communicate and codify that without being completely arbitrary yet without also being so completely specific that we fail to solve the problem.
Ok, if you want this to be a "Land of cookies and candy" here's a suggestion...
Don't allow serious debate. Seriously, if you want everyone to get along, just don't allow competitions, and a debate is a form of competition. It may be civil, it may be (sometimes) enlightened, but it's inherently a competition. Competitions inherently get heated, especially when people are trying to make something the best it can be.
You don't need to say "Don't be a jerk" you just need to say "don't debate."
Really, I think that'd sound a lot less wussy than making "don't be a jerk" an actual rule. I mean, increasingly, you guys are starting to sound, to be charitable, like a knitting circle of octagenarians, and to not be acharitable, a bunch of babies. You are seriously being accused of having egos made of tissue paper.
C'mon, I don't think (though I may be wrong...) that paizo headquarters are located in Canada, so why be Canadian in your rules? I mean, "Don't be a jerk?" Is this seriously what you want to be known for? Do you seriously want to be known as the forum whose rules include "Don't be a jerk?" As far as I know, Paizo headquarters is in the USA, so be an american company, americans are jerks; and nerds, as we all are, should be mature enough to take some meanie-head vocally disagreeing with them. Hell, as nerds, I'm sure we all faced enough crap in grade school that we can take a bit of criticism and "jerkitude".
So, with that said, I'd like to say one more thing, "So long and thanks for all the fish!"
wait, no, that's not right, oh, yeah it's "So long and thanks for keeping D&D 3.5 alive like it was an incontinent, comatose, geezer in a hospital bed waiting for the sweet release of death" or somthing. I think I'll return to my old haunts, as this one ain't quite spooky enough, too bright and saccharine.
One can debate politely, in a civilized manner.
"Don't be a jerk" doesn't preclude intelligent debate unless one or more of the debaters is incapable of being polite and civilized.
One can debate politely, in a civilized manner.
"Don't be a jerk" doesn't preclude intelligent debate unless one or more of the debaters is incapable of being polite and civilized.
debate will inevitably escalate, especially on "teh intarwebs," so if you don't want people being jerks, preclude debate, it's simple and looks a hell of a lot better.
|
debate will inevitably escalate, especially on "teh intarwebs," so if you don't want people being jerks, preclude debate, it's simple and looks a hell of a lot better.One can debate politely, in a civilized manner.
"Don't be a jerk" doesn't preclude intelligent debate unless one or more of the debaters is incapable of being polite and civilized.
And we can head off the sterile wasteland the boards will become when debate is forbidden by simply preventing people from making accounts or posting at all. Problem solved!
Actually, people have been debating for a long time about things far more important than gaming without resorting to an escalating situation resulting in vitriolic attacks. However, participating calmly in debate takes maturity and restraint. I see no reason why those that have such traits should be precluded from carrying on intelligent debate simply because the Internet came along and gave those not worthy a microphone and a stage.
debate will inevitably escalate, especially on "teh intarwebs," so if you don't want people being jerks, preclude debate, it's simple and looks a hell of a lot better.One can debate politely, in a civilized manner.
"Don't be a jerk" doesn't preclude intelligent debate unless one or more of the debaters is incapable of being polite and civilized.
And we can head off the sterile wasteland the boards will become when debate is forbidden by simply preventing people from making accounts or posting at all. Problem solved!
Actually, people have been debating for a long time about things far more important than gaming without resorting to an escalating situation resulting in vitriolic attacks. However, participating calmly in debate takes maturity and restraint. I see no reason why those that have such traits should be precluded from carrying on intelligent debate simply because the Internet came along and gave those not worthy a microphone and a stage.
Oh hey, it's the pot! All us kettles at the den say hi and a three word farewell that begins with "go" and ends with "yourself". What I saw on these boards prior to the clusterbang that was pathfinder's open playtesting was not debate, it was a land of cookies and candy where friends got together to help each other and newbies find stuff and interpret rules. I'm saying that you need to adopt a rule that brings paizo back to that rather than trying to just say "you can't be a jerk, we will ban you for it. Fear our god-like power and massive packages! I hope no one notices my conspicuopus lack of a bulge... oh crap I said that last part out loud!"
debate will inevitably escalate, especially on "teh intarwebs," so if you don't want people being jerks, preclude debate, it's simple and looks a hell of a lot better.I have more faith in humanity than you do.
you obviously have not met enough of it then.
|
Senior Software Developer
|
Hey, I get that people can be jerks. That's why bars have bouncers. But it doesn't mean that it's impossible to have a spirited debate without getting all ugly and fighty.
We want the Paizo messageboards to be different from the other places on the internet, where it's all shouting and banning and jackbooted moderator thugs running loose smiting trolls all the time.
This rule, albeit a bit vague, helps us to better correct the style of poster who doesn't necessarily violate our TOS but pushes the boundaries a lot with a passive-aggressive, mean-spirited, and habitually angry posting style. Our messageboards aren't therapy--you're not going to work anything out here by being aggressive and angry with the other denizens. People can disagree with us, with each other, with the world and do it politely. Inability to disagree with someone politely, as the children like to say, is epic fail.
bold - mine
Whew! I was worried there for a minute. 'Cause, you know, sometimes, just sometimes, I journey to the dark side. All kids do!'
I will endeavor to adhere to the non-jerkitude rule from now on!
I know that many of us appreciate both the faith and the call to maintain a respectful level of communication, even in the midst of disagreement.
debate will inevitably escalate, especially on "teh intarwebs," so if you don't want people being jerks, preclude debate, it's simple and looks a hell of a lot better.One can debate politely, in a civilized manner.
"Don't be a jerk" doesn't preclude intelligent debate unless one or more of the debaters is incapable of being polite and civilized.
This just isn't true, Prak. Most of us do fine with sensitive subjects and debate here. Check out the post 'A civil religious discussion' to see how the posters on Paizo accomplished something you'd be lucky to see anywhere else. Disagreement doesn't automatically lead to name calling. Here we are disagreeing on whether serious debate is the culprit and yet neither of us are going to start flaming each other because we're not hair-trigger idiots. So we're exempt from the (Pathfinder Subscriber, Jerk) title after our names.
I like debate on Paizo. It's stimulating and one of the good few reasons I roost here. That said, trolls suck and need to be weeded for the good of all. This place is too special to get caught up, as it sometimes does, in BS free speech/censorship arguments when discussion of banning trolls gets brought up. This is a company's forums. They can make whatever rules they want. However, I've noticed that they are quite liberal in regards to what can be said, just sensitive to how things are stated.
Lich-Loved, I am in awe of your pariah status among the den-izens. I mean, sure, I've gotten a few angry people to swear blood vengeance against me and generally curse my name, but you've got an entire fan club dedicated to singing your praises. Well played.
And Lich-Loved, I like your cheery lunar countenance.
Hey, I get that people can be jerks. That's why bars have bouncers. But it doesn't mean that it's impossible to have a spirited debate without getting all ugly and fighty.
We want the Paizo messageboards to be different from the other places on the internet, where it's all shouting and banning and jackbooted moderator thugs running loose smiting trolls all the time.
*WHACK*
"...oh, sorry sir, I thought you were someone else."
Hey, I get that people can be jerks. That's why bars have bouncers. But it doesn't mean that it's impossible to have a spirited debate without getting all ugly and fighty.
We want the Paizo messageboards to be different from the other places on the internet, where it's all shouting and banning and jackbooted moderator thugs running loose smiting trolls all the time.
because a rule addition is totally going to change all of that, rather than make it the entire point of the mods... You know a better way to change things, change the mods, don't give the power to control freaks with no experience in modding(or are just poor moderators). If being a jerk is against the rules, then all the moderators are are jack-booted troll slaying thugs who are now slaying anything that even vaguely resembles a troll, including that tall, scrawny kid with the rediculously long nose who fell in some green paint...