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Having been forced to play 4th edition for 4 sittings now, I was driven (by hunger for a better game) to either give up on D&D and resort to a life of WOW for my sword & sorcery fix.
Fortunately that didn't happen, I popped on here to buy a T-Shirt and a plush elder god...
And taa-daa here is Pathfinder, and I must say it feels more like Classic D&D than D&D 4th edition does! Does anybody else think so?
So to me I tend to call Pathfinder D&D, and D&D 4th edition something along the lines of Junior D&D.
...Pacifier NOT included.
(You must excuse my rantings, as I've been denied my funyuns & Mt. Dew.)
I am with ya, we switched to pathfinder with the alpha And haven't looked back. To use it is D&D, it plays like it and most important it FEELS like it.
Edit: and welcome to the boards
Welcome!
Let's the edition wars begin! Or maybe we have all grown up a little by now.
You mean...uh hummmm. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
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I am with ya, we switched to pathfinder with the alpha And haven't looked back. To use it is D&D, it plays like it and most important it FEELS like it.
Edit: and welcome to the boards
Yeah, to me it kinda feels like Greyhawk & Forgotten Realms used to feel like, and THAT is a very good atmosphere for any setting.
You guys know what I mean, and thanks btw, it's great to be here.
Oh yeah I get a very nice old school vibe from the setting. Over all the folks at Paizo understand what old school feel is. And that is always a good thing.
Hi new guy! Welcome to the boards, have some cookies! *passes out virtual cookies*
I have to agree. As far as I am concerned, Pathfinder is continuing with the D&D tradition. I have to say that I am glad I tried it, because I was WotC-products-only type of guy before the edition switch, but WotC was beginning to produce products that simply had no appeal to me and were clearly targeted at a different demographic/customer base. Then PFRPG was announced and I somewhat hesitantly decided to check it out, but upon doing so, it was immediately clear to me that PFRPG is designed to carry on with the D&D tradition and I became a fan.
Ive played every version of D&D (except Chainmail), Ive died as a lowly first level pc and retired as an immortal of the sphere of thought and been a githzerai zerth. in all of those years of playing, experiencing 4e was the first time a D&D edition didn't feel like a D&D game. don't get me wrong, 4e is a good game and probably a great cash cow (trying playing that game without miniatures) but pathfinder feels right, it feels like home or dungeon in this case.
Same here. Pathfinder is D&D in spirit.
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I am maybe in the minority in that my experience of D&D is limited - I got on board with 3.5 and it has been one of many games I play.
To me D&D isn't the feel of a game, but a player experience. D&D is being able to find the game books everywhere, being able to easily find players who play the game, being able to go to a con and be pretty much assured of there being a D&D game. Its being able to chat and talk about a common game with loads of people. Its being able to go and play at D&D Experience. Basically D&D is the brand and the hobby and all things that go along with it - and as such Pathfinder can never be D&D to me.
However, Pathfinder RPG looks like it could be a decent game in and of itself, especially when taken along with the setting. Golarion seems an interesting world with lots of different types of games to be played in it (at times I think it a bit of a hodge podge of ideas, but then something really grabs me, like the undead country of Geb).
Paizo need to strive to stand on their own feet as an RPG rather than rely on D&D3.5 players who aren't impressed with 4e. In a few years time any players who are not already playing Pathfinder or D&D4e will be unlikely to have played D&D3.5 as their main game (unless they joined a group of 3.5 veterans who neither went PF or 4e) and so PF's claims of backwards compatibility will not carry much sway.
Similarly for players who have only experienced D&D4e, claiming that Pathfinder RPG is the real D&D won't make much sense to them. 4e will be D&D to those players.
I think Paizo need to recognise that while being somewhat backwards compatible with D&D3.5 will be a unique selling point now, in the long run they need to ensure Pathfinder RPG stands out from the crowd of all fantasy RPGs - be they D&D4e, other d20 based games such as Conan, FantasyCraft, M&M (with Warriors & Warlocks), and even non d20 based games such as Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Song of Ice and Fire, Savage Worlds (with one of its many fantasy settings), etc.
So, to me Pathfinder is not the new D&D, D&D 4th edition is. Pathfinder is Pathfinder, and whether it can stand out and be half as popular as D&D remains to be seen.
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Contributor
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After playing D&D for decades, it definitely has a recognizable feel to it. Even when addition changes roll in, there are recognizable elements that make things feel familiar enough to make you want to explore it all over again.
When I converted to 3.0, the change wasn't all that extreme. It still felt like my old game, it still worked with my homebrew. It even made me want to try new things with what I was doing. It allowed me to keep building.
Pathfinder does that as well, it has a very familiar feel to it, which I love. I recognize key elements in the fluff that make for a great setting and great characters. I recognize mechanics that are fun, and yet still provide me with enough dynamics to feel like I'm not playing a sluggish kind of video game with one-dimensional superheroey powers.
Pathfinder indeed feels like D&D to me, or more accurately, it has a flavor that seems most true to the original intentions of what Gary and Dave and others tried to create when they first developed RPGs. Call me a grognard, but that's the flavor that captured my imagination when I was a kid. Sure I mix it up a lot now, but I like the basic flavor. I suppose its sort of like experimenting with different pizza toppings rather than trying to make french bread pizza, pizza bagels, or pizza bites (none of which ever defrost quite well enough to taste like pizza).
Pathfinder is NOT D&D.
I say this as an ardent fan of Pathfinder. It cannot even use the term 'D&D' in its description.
Pathfinder is a derivitive of the OGL/SRD rules that WotC released early in the decade. It is no more D&D than Mutants and Masterminds or True20 is.
That being said, I personally dislike the direction 'D&D' has gone in. I no longer play 'D&D'. I play Pathfinder.
Calling Pathfinder 'D&D' is just an invitation to reopen the old wounds and begin yet another angst-filled flamewar thread.
Is Pathfinder the 'spiritual' successor to D&D? Some think so, but that is really just a matter of opinion. It has the compelling stories, respect of the previous edition and backwards compatibility I desire, thus for me it is the successor I desire in gaming. YMMV
Pathfinder is a derivitive of the OGL/SRD rules that WotC released early in the decade. It is no more D&D than Mutants and Masterminds or True20 is.That being said, I personally dislike the direction 'D&D' has gone in. I no longer play 'D&D'. I play Pathfinder.
In name, PF isn't D&D, but 4e is. In spirit, it's the other way around.
I am maybe in the minority in that my experience of D&D is limited - I got on board with 3.5 and it has been one of many games I play.
Not far off from where I came from. Though my first experiences with D&D come from Baldur's Gate (which uses AD&D 2e rules), and the first games I played in were 2e, too, the first rulebook I got and read, and the first rules I really understood, were 3e (in fact, I never really understood a lot about 2e).
Beyond D&D, I also played (very little) DSA, some L5R, Vampire (both) and nWoD, Star Wars (d20 Revised), d20 Modern, Serenity, CoC, and maybe a couple of other games, though the vast majority was 3e.
D&D is being able to find the game books everywhere, being able to easily find players who play the game, being able to go to a con and be pretty much assured of there being a D&D game.
Not to me. I don't go to cons (the trade fair Spiel doesn't really count), there are virtually no places beyond game shops that have any rules (and they tend to have a couple of other games, too), and players are scarce enough around here (though some sort of D&D is usually among the most played games).
And for this, I could find groups to play in for 2e, 3e, and Pathfinder (and play in 3.5 and PF groups), but none for 4e.
Its being able to go and play at D&D Experience.
If I used such a definition, D&D wouldn't exist for me.
Basically D&D is the brand and the hobby and all things that go along with it - and as such Pathfinder can never be D&D to me.
The brand doesn't come into it any more really, not around here. Because I probably couldn't find a 4e game if I wanted to.
For me, it's the feel. PF feels much like the game that, for me, started the D&D experience - just better. I recognise the critters, the races, the classes, and am able to tell the stories I want to tell.
4e fails in that regard.
Paizo need to strive to stand on their own feet as an RPG rather than rely on D&D3.5 players who aren't impressed with 4e.
Not with PF RPG (1st edition). That one is the continuation of 3e since the Paizo People (and many of us) feel that 3e's not quite dead yet.
In a few years time any players who are not already playing Pathfinder or D&D4e will be unlikely to have played D&D3.5 as their main game (unless they joined a group of 3.5 veterans who neither went PF or 4e) and so PF's claims of backwards compatibility will not carry much sway.
That's a problem for in a few years.
In a few years, the end of the 3e era will probably come, anyway. But the end is not here yet, not in the hands of many 3e and now PF enthusiasts.
Similarly for players who have only experienced D&D4e, claiming that Pathfinder RPG is the real D&D won't make much sense to them. 4e will be D&D to those players.
Poor bastards.
Anyway, in a few years (I guess 2011-2013), I'm sure that there will be Pathfinder RPG Second Edition, which will be the evolution of 3e. PF2e will not be backwards compatible with the rules 3e or PF1e, but it certainly will be compatible with the flavour of those rulesets (and all other D&D editions). It will improve upon the game while keeping those things that made 3e great: flexibility, freedom, and open to many game worlds.
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Hey, no matter how everyone feels we love TO game! I think we all can agree on that. Oh and thanks for the cookie! (muches happily from his mount)
Now as far as Pathfinder standing the test of time, I think it will. Granted we one day might have 2nd edition Pathfinder or something like that, but honestly we play the game for what we like.
I mean come on who doesn't enjoy being a heroic or dastardly scoundrel delving into ruins of a once glorious city, all in the hopes "of finding the remains of a great treasury said to have been held by the king, supposedly lost in the destruction of this shattered remains, where once stood a city sprawling with people of all manner and creed. It is now that you feel uneasy, as if you were being watched, and all you see is ruin all around you."
See it's not the brand, it's the feel of the game that we love.
Say can I get another cookie? My horse ate my last one.
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In name, PF isn't D&D, but 4e is. In spirit, it's the other way around.
I guess it depends upon who is defining what the spirit of D&D is.
If someone believes the spirit of D&D is playing heroes who descend into dungeons to battle monsters and gain wealth and magical treasure whilst becoming more powerful, then D&D 4th edition is as much D&D as Pathfinder is.
Not to me. I don't go to cons (the trade fair Spiel doesn't really count), there are virtually no places beyond game shops that have any rules (and they tend to have a couple of other games, too), and players are scarce enough around here (though some sort of D&D is usually among the most played games).
And for this, I could find groups to play in for 2e, 3e, and Pathfinder (and play in 3.5 and PF groups), but none for 4e.
[...]
If I used such a definition, D&D wouldn't exist for me.
The "To me..." but at the start of the paragraph was meant to implicitly apply to all the statements in that paragraph, i.e. read all those "D&D is..." comments as "To me D&D is..."
As I said, perspectives differ. For example, To me D&D is also the game that supports Eberron as a setting.
For me, it's the feel. PF feels much like the game that, for me, started the D&D experience - just better. I recognise the critters, the races, the classes, and am able to tell the stories I want to tell.
4e fails in that regard.
And that's cool - for you Pathfinder is more D&D than D&D4e.
Not with PF RPG (1st edition). That one is the continuation of 3e since the Paizo People (and many of us) feel that 3e's not quite dead yet.
Paizo need to strive to stand on their own feet as an RPG rather than rely on D&D3.5 players who aren't impressed with 4e.
Yeah, I guess I agree here. For the initial release of Pathfinder Paizo can afford to (and are smart to) ride on the coat tails of D&D 3.5. However I think we both agree that can't last forever and pathfinder needs to evolve into its own game - perhaps as you suggested, when a PF 2e comes out that isn't concerned with backwards compatibility with 3.5 or PF1. And I hope that PF 2e is as radical a change as D&D4e was from 3.5 (though not necessarily in the same way).
Poor bastards.
Not necessarily - if they enjoy 4e and get all the benefits that go along with playing the most popular RPG on the planet, then fair play to them. Although I was initially not enthused about 4e, I am now planning on getting into the game for just such benefits (but will be sticking with D&D3.5 and Pathfinder with my home group as they don't like 4e).
Say can I get another cookie? My horse ate my last one.
^_^
*gets out apples for the horse, and more cookies for the gallant knight*
Say can I get another cookie? My horse ate my last one.^_^
*gets out apples for the horse, and more cookies for the gallant knight*
Knights always get all the cookies!
Pathfinder is NOT D&D.
I say this as an ardent fan of Pathfinder. It cannot even use the term 'D&D' in its description.
<...snip...>
That being said, I personally dislike the direction 'D&D' has gone in. I no longer play 'D&D'. I play Pathfinder.Calling Pathfinder 'D&D' is just an invitation to reopen the old wounds and begin yet another angst-filled flamewar thread.
Welcome Cavalier Lord, your feelings are shared by many despite the usual debate that appears when they're brought up. I would have to add that WotC should simply heed the life lesson of "Don't fix, what isn't broken.". Marketing endless editions works great for Magic cards and other tournament-driven games, D&D is not one of them.
My group also prefers Pathfinder to 4e, will we ever call it "Pathfinder"? Such as "Let's go to Tom's house and play Pathfinder on Sunday!" Not likely, at least not for a long time, that is the legacy that was D&D for the past 30+ years. You wouldn't call a cheeseburger something else just because it came from a different restaurant and as much as Pathfinder has stuck to its roots, the analogy applies. I am still going to my friend's house "to play Dungeons & Dragons", if that means hauling a "Pathfinder PHB" with me, so be it.
Welcome, Cavalier. You'll find plenty of general sympathy with your opinion, round hereabouts. Although, as you can see, we're an opinionated lot, and we sometimes split them rather fine. You've found a creative, generous community of folks.
Cavalier lord,I like you are new to this board..although some of you may know my brother from this board...snoring rock.We started playing back in 78 with the basic blue book addition.We decided to go with pathfinder when 4e was announced in the middle of a wilderlands setting.And I must say that pathfinder melds well with judges guild products.My brother was tossing around the idea of going back to 1e.Probably because of the prep time for a dm.Im glad I talked him out of it.We always wanted a first addition feel,And although pathfinder is not 1e.With the world we are in and hopfully a standard set of rules.We can spend many a saturday night with our figs on the table rolling dice.
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Welcome Cavalier Lord. I would agree that 3.5 and Pathfinder are dnd. I've been heard to say that playing dnd is a lot like playing football in the sense that the NFL doesn't really, and can't really own the game of football. I am playing Pathfinder RPG with a group of five players weekly now since May (Alpha & Beta test), and it feels very much like the dnd I've always known.
What we're all really playing here is the game formerly known as dungeons and dragons, but somewhat improved by Jason Bulmahn and Monte Cook et.al. And with better leadership a la Erik Mona and Lisa Stevens.
Please join the open playtest. The PAIZO designers are pretty down to earth and frequent these boards. PAIZO listens to its customer base. We love it here.
Welcome to the PAIZO messageboards.
Uh, to all new posters, just be careful of the Bella-Sara pony. That pony has a vicious kick, if you get in the way.
Excuse me, but I'm due back on the Untitled thread, where I'm roasting baked potatoes in the ashes of Kobold Cleaver.
<scuttles off>
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Welcome Cavalier Lord!
I share your feelings! Both my home campaign and my friend's now use PRPG. Some of my home campaign players left my game for two or three weeks a few months ago, and they quickly came back to my regular 3.5 game soon after, feeling somewhat dissatisfied and bummed out about the whole 4E experience. Now that we have all switched to PRPG, none of them are even remotely considering trying 4E ever again. They just love PRPG Beta.
One of my players is a big D&D mini gamer (he organizes games for his friends once a week or so) and reported to me that D&D is thinking of doing away with the whole D&D mini line?!?! is this true? has D&D mini reached the end of its life? (read: are sales crashing?)
If so, boy oh boy... I'm starting to think that the whole 4E thing was a BIG mistake for WotC and D&D in general...
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Welcome Cavalier Lord to the boards
One of my players is a big D&D mini gamer (he organizes games for his friends once a week or so) and reported to me that D&D is thinking of doing away with the whole D&D mini line?!?! is this true? has D&D mini reached the end of its life? (read: are sales crashing?)
They are going to still sell the mini's but the stat cards are not going to be included and the mini game rules are not going to be supported. I just hope since they are not including the cards they will do away with the common, rare crap and lower the price on the mini's but we will see.
One of my players is a big D&D mini gamer (he organizes games for his friends once a week or so) and reported to me that D&D is thinking of doing away with the whole D&D mini line?!?! is this true? has D&D mini reached the end of its life? (read: are sales crashing?)
DDM is done for. There will be one more set (Demonweb), and that's it - everything they've announced after that is killed.
Seems that they didn't sell enough (if you ask me, it's because the price went up and up while the quality went down and down. Underdark was the last strong set).
They will do more minis stuff, but the skirmish aspect will be gone:
There will be some heroes sets: 3 figures per set (2m 1f), nonrandom, for 11 bucks or something like that. You also get cards with unique 4e class powers you won't get anywhere else (remember all those jokes that wizards would eventually do D&D: The Gathering?)
There'll also be monster sets. They have 6 figures or so in them: One you can see, and 5 random (1r 2u 2c or something like that) and cost something like 15 bucks.
It has been a while since I bought DDM, but those prices are a lot higher than what I paid last for the stuff, I do know that. Let's see whether the quality will be better this time around...
So to me I tend to call Pathfinder D&D, and D&D 4th edition something along the lines of Junior D&D....Pacifier NOT included.
(You must excuse my rantings, as I've been denied my funyuns & Mt. Dew.)
I agree. I tend to call Pathfinder P-DnD.
D&D, to me, is about a lot more than heroes going into dungeons.
D&D is a fantasy world simulator that is built using statistics.
And especially: if I have to get rid of most of the core rules and spend several weeks updating races, skills, feats, and spells from old editions, then it's not D&D.
Take a look at the beguiler spell list in the PHB2 and see how many spells made it to powers or rituals. Only 20% made it into the PHB, and most of the spells on the list are from the 3.5 SRD. Maybe that will change when the bard is released, but still, you get my point. I don't want to control combat by greasing the floor or putting a wall in place. I want to control combat by making my enemies change whose side they're on (and more importantly build a stable of magically dominated servants for my comfy and fantastic demiplane stronghold from which I can conquer the world).
I don't see any way to do that in 4e. Pathfinder lets me do that, thanks to its backward compatibility.
Now if paizo could come up with a mass combat system and a regency system.