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Riddleport has authorities? :D Also full xp for opening and closing door is pretty generous xD
Anyhoo, my party killed him in like.. Well less than 3 rounds, and they weren't even optimized(he was pretty much soloed by point buy 14 fighter. Yes, we roll stats). Its mostly because 1) he has no room in the room 2) he isn't immune to fire so if he is in middle of the room he takes fire damage. 3) They didn't even fully enter the place, one of them stepped in, rest of them didn't come, so Malfeshnekor had no choice but attack one attempting to leave.
I'm actually kind of curious, was 3.5 version of Malfeshnekor tougher or how is everyone having problems with him .-.
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The arcanist in my party defeated him in a comical fashion single-handedly. You'll notice that the room with the throne that has a constant Karzoug image playing on loop is down the hall from Malfeshnekor's prison. Once he realized what was happening, he took out his wand of magic missile which still had about 30-something charges on it, sat on the "throne", with doors open in both rooms so he could look down the hall into the prison, used a scroll of see invisibility, and then proceeded to just peck away at him and burned through 20-something charges of his wand to kill him while the rest of the party watched.
If the PCs have done every encounter and there's only 4 PCs in your group... they should actually be 5th level.
Even then, Malfeshnekor isn't intended to be someone that the PCS have to kill or defeat before moving on to the next adventure; Burnt Offerings is "over" once they defeat Nualia. The expectation is that the PCs might explore a little further but then have to start the next adventure, and maybe when they're 5th or 6th or even 7th they can come back and finish off Malfeshnekor; he'll wait. He's not going anywhere.
He's not meant to be the big bad end guy of Burnt Offerings, though.
I think that it would have been really helpful if that specific expectation was printed explicitly in the adventure, because I know at least one adventure group that could have saved one very nonsatisfying rpg-experience. This is one more example why I am not satisfied with the adventure path.
The arcanist in my party defeated him in a comical fashion single-handedly. You'll notice that the room with the throne that has a constant Karzoug image playing on loop is down the hall from Malfeshnekor's prison. Once he realized what was happening, he took out his wand of magic missile which still had about 30-something charges on it, sat on the "throne", with doors open in both rooms so he could look down the hall into the prison, used a scroll of see invisibility, and then proceeded to just peck away at him and burned through 20-something charges of his wand to kill him while the rest of the party watched.
Why wouldn't Malfeshnekor just move to either side of the door where he couldn't be seen from outside of the room? Other than GM generosity, of course?
Creative Director
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I think that it would have been really helpful if that specific expectation was printed explicitly in the adventure, because I know at least one adventure group that could have saved one very nonsatisfying rpg-experience. This is one more example why I am not satisfied with the adventure path.If the PCs have done every encounter and there's only 4 PCs in your group... they should actually be 5th level.
Even then, Malfeshnekor isn't intended to be someone that the PCS have to kill or defeat before moving on to the next adventure; Burnt Offerings is "over" once they defeat Nualia. The expectation is that the PCs might explore a little further but then have to start the next adventure, and maybe when they're 5th or 6th or even 7th they can come back and finish off Malfeshnekor; he'll wait. He's not going anywhere.
He's not meant to be the big bad end guy of Burnt Offerings, though.
That's pretty much the point of the sidebar on page 57 of the original publication of "Burnt Offerings"—this was a note to the GM that "Not all of the encounters in "Burnt Offerings" need to be completed..." I guess we could have specifically said that "Malfeshnekor is tough so watch out" but I figured that the fact he was clearly a CR 7 foe would have alerted GMs to this fact.
We did remove this sidebar from the hardcover edition, which might have been an error, I suppose, but still—that's why we include CR indications for monsters, so GMs will know at a glance how tough an encounter is and to keep that in mind for the PCs.
We did remove this sidebar from the hardcover edition, which might have been an error, I suppose, but still—that's why we include CR indications for monsters, so GMs will know at a glance how tough an encounter is and to keep that in mind for the PCs.
I also tried to emphasize to my group through story cues that a creature captured by whomever had originally built the complex and still alive was probably immensely powerful (in comparison to their current level).
It fell on deaf ears. The party had some hard fights up to this point, but operated under the expectation that everything in the story would be scaled to their level. The mauling they received before dashing out of the room was a nice moment that reset expectations. This was not a dynamically scaled experience that a video game provides.
I don't view that as a failing of the AP though, just in the party's approach. They finally grasped that an enemy could be significantly more powerful than the party could handle... and that killing everything you encounter is not always the solution.
I was more concerned with Nualia, her yeth hound, and the trapped hallway as a possible TPK area. My group is okay with the "living to fight another day" strategy.
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We did remove this sidebar from the hardcover edition, which might have been an error, I suppose, but still—that's why we include CR indications for monsters, so GMs will know at a glance how tough an encounter is and to keep that in mind for the PCs.
I wouldn't consider it an error. It is the GM's responsibility to know the adventure in advance, including which encounters are optional, and to communicate such to the players when appropriate. My players had no issue with this part of the adventure without any prompting from me; as soon as they opened the door and Malfeshnekor spoke, they said "Nope!", slammed the door shut and left, never to return. They understood that he had been sealed in there, probably for a very good reason, and decided to leave posthaste.
We did remove this sidebar from the hardcover edition, which might have been an error, I suppose, but still—that's why we include CR indications for monsters, so GMs will know at a glance how tough an encounter is and to keep that in mind for the PCs.I wouldn't consider it an error. It is the GM's responsibility to know the adventure in advance, including which encounters are optional, and to communicate such to the players when appropriate. My players had no issue with this part of the adventure without any prompting from me; as soon as they opened the door and Malfeshnekor spoke, they said "Nope!", slammed the door shut and left, never to return. They understood that he had been sealed in there, probably for a very good reason, and decided to leave posthaste.
Agreed. The Hardback AP still says that 'Defeating Malfeshnekor is purely optional' (p65). And his CR signals him as an obvious TPK risk to an unprepared or disorganised party.
The same goes for Xanesha at the end of book 2. We should expect Big Bads with high CRs at the end of books, and then the GM should think carefully about how his party should be exposed to them, and if so what tweaks should be made for balance and challenge. Are you running with 3 new players and 15 point builds? Or do you have a four or more very experienced players with well optimised individual and synergistic 25 point builds?
My party decided to skip him (they were having trouble getting into his chamber). Then lost interest in coming back to Thistletop once they got on the trail of the Skinsaw murders. So in our instance of Golarion, Malfeshnekor is till trapped there to this day...
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I did my best with Malfeshnekor, but it was him vs 4 PCs with rolled stats (avg. 23 point builds). They opened the door, found nothing in it, called that it was Malfeshnekor's room (they had done as much research as they could on him before this point), and as soon as he dropped crushing despair they retaliated with glitterdust. After that, he just couldn't keep up with the damage from a bloodrager, rogue, witch, and warpriest, and he had nowhere to run. I think the fight lasted 4 rounds, and he only managed to drop the Bloodrager.
This was, admittedly, after the party had dealt with the rest of Thistletop, so prep was relatively easy.
I ran Nualia + 3 Yeth hounds for when my full team (6 PCs, Orik, and Aneka Avertin) was combing Thistletop, and that was far more lethal. Lost two PCs before the party turned the tide.
Party of four level 4 PC's zerged and beat him easy.
Min/max Wizard, Fighter, Alchemist, and Bard.
Some time ago, a party of four or five five fifth-level characters (I don't remember if the occultist had left the group yet) plus Shalelu encountered Malfeshnekor. Two characters (including mine) were dead and a third was on single-digit hit points when Shalelu brought Malfeshnekor down with two bow crits in a single round. The campaign died in the midst of book 2.
We killed him with difficulty as a party of 4 unoptimized characters. Paladin did the heavy lifting
My Group went to the cathedral and got a barrel of holy water, the wizard summoned a air elemental and the holy water flushed the prison, what was left was beatable for them