Creative Director
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Dire bats and dire rats are classic monsters. Even if every other dire animal gets dropped for a template, these two need to be fully statted out. Especially since wererats gain a dire rat form from the lycanthrope template.
I'm actually tempted to replace dire creatures with their prehistoric megafauna equivalents. For wolf, that means dire wolf, of course. For tiger, that means smilodon. For shark, that means megalodon. Etc. But then again... dire creatures are pretty set in the game. I'd be tempted NOT to do a template, simply because these animals are used SO much by druids that not having their stats done up and handy is kind of a bad idea.
First, there's really no such thing as a default ghost, lich, or vampire. Every one of those monsters is going to be an unique NPC. So stats for a "typical" ghost, lich, or vampire are just a waste of space. If the DM doesn't have time (or a pregenerated adventure) to stat out unique NPCs, he shouldn't be using any of these templates in the first place.
There's not, but at the same time there are the "CLASSIC" versions of these monsters. It would be cool, instead of having a monk vampire or a fighter ghost, to actually give stats for a Dracula-type vampire or an evil illusionist ghost. But yeah... how we deal with templates is an interesting idea. I suspect that not giving sample monsters is a bad idea, though... but I'm not sure we need to give LOTS of them (in cases like zombie or skeleton).
Second, there are lots of cool lycanthropes, but do we really need the stats for every other werebeast under the moon? Couldn't we really get by with just werebears, wererats, and werewolves, plus a template for creating other kinds of lycanthropes as needed?
We don't, I don't think. The template is also CRAZY complex. We probably only need wererat and werewolf as examples, though... And it would be cool to figure a way out to make the template not so weird.
Third, and conversely, summon monster spells list dozens of celestial and fiendish creatures that a player can summon, none of which are currently statted out in full. If a player can summon it, it really needs a full and ready stat block, not a base creature and an as-yet-unapplied template. So either give it a full stat block, or make sure it cannot be summoned by a summon monster spell.
Agreed. But full lists of all those monsters isn't really an option for the MM, since we don't want to clog the book with fiendish and celestial stat blocks...
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Creative Director
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That being said, there is one monster that has always seemed a little off to me. OgreMagi, this race/monster seems like a sore thumb that needs healing. Badly. Cure serious wounds even. It just doesn't fit in anyway shape or form. Especially now with the adjustment of the Ogres that have been given by the Illustrious Nick Logue and his twisted little experiment of giant concoctions. OK, so that didn't make much sense, but my point is valid lets hammer this nail down and make it "fit" better into the game and to echo earlier thoughts lets kill of dumb creatures that are unneeded and unwanted, and forget their existence, unless a logical in game, compelling reason for their being exists. Tojandas I am looking at you.
The ogre magi could probably stand to get cut and replaced by one of two things: An ogre with sorcerer levels, or an actual oni. At the VERY LEAST, the ogre magi needs to be rebalanced, though; that's for sure.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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The ogre magi could probably stand to get cut and replaced by one of two things: An ogre with sorcerer levels, or an actual oni. At the VERY LEAST, the ogre magi needs to be rebalanced, though; that's for sure.
Put me down for #2. Onis are cool enough I want to see them stick around, but the 3E ogre mage isn't that interesting an oni. I do think they have a lot more going on than just being an ogre with class levels - particularly in the brains department.
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Creative Director
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I would actually like to see demon lords/princes and the Lords of the Nine back in the core monster books instead of some supplement on the Abyss or the Hells I don't know if all of them are open game content or not but Asmodeus and Pazuzu must be since I have seen their names cropping up in some Pathfinder books.
I would too! If we WERE to do this, though, we'd probably only stat up two demon lords, and then we'd have to do the same for a few archdevils and daemon Horsemen, and if we stat up the Horsemen, we should just stat up all FOUR, which means that then why don't we stat up four demon lords and four arch devils... at which point why not just stat up all eight arch devils (the ninth being Asmodeous, a god, and beyond stat blocks) and nine demon lords?
Suddenly, that's 22 pages of the book at minimum, and probably more like 44 since these are complex monsters that'll need 2 pages.
As a result... I suspect that stating up demon lords etc. will have to wait for a separate book. A "Fiends of Golarion" type book.
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I think the Oni idea is cool. It leaves room for tons of oni types running the gamut of CR's. It's really good fodder for later expansion. If the oni hail from the other side of Varisia, peppering one or two breeds in here and there would make sense from a world development pov. THEN, when the Japan analogue comes up, go balls-to-the wall with oni breeds.
Tengu done proper might be spiffy too. I always liked it when a game put in that a tengu teaches you swordplay, you're a bad mofo.
It would make a groovy feat, or hell, a prestige class.
I always had it in the back of my mind that the tengu sensei 'trope would be a badass way to introduce Book of Nine Swords into a D&D game.
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I think the Oni idea is cool. It leaves room for tons of oni types running the gamut of CR's. It's really good fodder for later expansion. If the oni hail from the other side of Varisia, peppering one or two breeds in here and there would make sense from a world development pov. THEN, when the Japan analogue comes up, go balls-to-the wall with oni breeds.
Tengu done proper might be spiffy too. I always liked it when a game put in that a tengu teaches you swordplay, you're a bad mofo.
It would make a groovy feat, or hell, a prestige class.
I always had it in the back of my mind that the tengu sensei 'trope would be a badass way to introduce Book of Nine Swords into a D&D game.
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Creative Director
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The vast swaths of templated monsters sounds like it would be ideal for a web enhancement. Its just a little busy work, and you don't spend the money on art or publishing costs.
Nothing about web enhancements is easy, though. They complicate matters incredibly. It's easier to include web enhancements in books, where everyone can use them.
Okay - I'm one who was happy to have all SRD in the book, but if not, here's my take:
"Sacrifices"
* Tojanida – fine
* Yrthak – good to go, as well
* Digester – seriously?
* Delver and Thoqqua and other goofy-looking burrowing creatures (aren’t the xorns enough?)
Sacrifice:
Achaierai - it's not the first bird, it's not the first bird...
Allip - used them and was disappointed (use Caller in Darkness instead)
Aranea/Ettercap - one or the other (if that)
Athach - playing 3rd for 8 years and I can't even picture this thing after reading the description.
Belker/Chaos beast - one or the other
Choker - Cloakers, Trappers, Lurkers, Piercers, Grick - so many better options
Delver - Don't really seem to serve a purpose
Digester - Weird, gross, and still not fun to throw at PCs
Dino, Deinonychus - Save it for a Dino book or something
Dino, Elasmosaurus - See above
Dragon, Red - just checking if you're paying attention
Dragonne - seen them used, old style monster, but.. save or be fatigued? Hyracosphinx's are better
Elf, Gray/Wild/Wood - I would say "what's the harm", but I end up with "what's the point" - stat changes have negated the need for some. Would prefer a Golarion specific version. I can't imagine needing to "look up" the stats for a Gray Elf while DM'ing - ever. If it's not in the stat block, it can't be important.
Etheral Filcher/Marauder - pick one or combine them.
Frost Worm - make a greater Remorhaz
Girallon - not bad, just not so needed
Gnome, Forest - included flavor-wise in Pathfinder Gnome - states are barely anything different
Half-Dragon - figured I'd give it a shot
Howler - convince me
Lillend - Couatls are better
Locathah - okay, they have history - but why Locathah when you can have Sahuagin?
Magmin - Azers or small fire elementals
Mohrg - Devourers over Mohrg - but I'm all for skeletal undead that can be confused for eachother.
Rast - are Rasts insectoid? reptilian? where's the fire?
Razor Boar - where did this come from? Half dire-boar half tarrasque?
Skum - see Locathah and Howler
Spider Eater - just read an ecology of them - still not convinced
Tojanida - poor critter
Triton - vs. Merfolk?
Xill - are Rasts insect... oh, wait Xill - those other 4 clawed outsiders. Maybe - since can't have Slaad.
Yrthak - for all the reasons mentioned above
Don't Sacrifice:
Arrowhawk - they actually look cool now that I read them
Chuul - scary, strong, but they gotttta get a new name!
Destrachan - if only to threaten PCs with
Dragon Turtle - won't buy the book without it! (seriously)
Formian - they've grown on me.. no i mean literally (shows off antennae)
Gray Render - the Gorilla/Lion of the underdark
Inevitable - all cool
Krenshar - easily blow away the Howlers for coolness
Nightshade - I translated these nasties from 3rd to 1st just to use them and they are remembered with great horror.
Ogre Magi - From 1st to 3rd - best mid-level bosses I ever used.
Otyugh - goes without saying really.
Ravid - just cause
Tendriculos - a.k.a. "Lawn Maw"
Thoqqua - freaky lil things
Add:
Purple Dragon! - find a way!
I don't believe NPCs are going to get favored classes at all... don't quote me on that though.
*quotes you*
Seriously though - the conversion listed in the Beta does list NPCs getting favored class benefits.
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Bring back chlorine gas breath for Green Dragons!
I went one step sideways. We've got dragons of fire, electricity, acid and cold, so my Green Dragons have a *Sonic* 'breath weapon' and Bard levels instead of Sorcerer levels.
I didn't bother doing the same for the metallic / good dragons, 'cause there aren't any in my world...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Between the modron situation and how long the faerie dragon took to get a 3e version, I swear, somebody over at WotC must have absolutely loathed those guys. Absolutely classic monsters that got ignored time and time again. :/
And I should point out that faerie dragons are very possibly my favorite monster of all time. Yes, more than the various 'loths.
*hugs his tome of horrors* I've had the little buggers since 3.0. What took you so long ;-)
Dino, Deinonychus - Save it for a Dino book or something
You are aware that that's a "Velociraptor" right?
So, right, the Catobelpas was in Pliny's inventorum. I knew I had seen it somewhere. That just barely qualifies it as "mythological" though, because Pliny was actually trying to write a beastiary of real plants and animals. Nothing Pliny wrote about the Catobelpas qualifies it as a "monster" per se, not on the level of a Lamia, for example. Still, I will admit defeat on this issue.
Here's a suggestion:
All the sentient races with "culture" in one volume (Drow, Duergar, Hobgoblins, Giants, etc). Let this volume also contain the rules for adding classes to monsters. All the "monsters" in another volume (Dragons, otyughs, rust monsters, tentamorts, etc) . Release the monster volume first, since the PRPG should contain the core races (and some of the more common evil humanoids) anyway.
There is a case for including some things in the PRPG rulebook. Mainly the Reincarnation spell. I'd also say that goblins and kobolds, and some giants should be in there as "Get-you-by" monster manual stuff, because these monsters appear as racial hatreds for the core classes.
Linnorms and Hags get my vote - I mean we've got Baba Yaga's daughters in Irrisen, so a Golarion take on hags, or Pathfinder world varients would fit nicely.
My two coppers worth
I'd like to see monsters from other cultures besides the euro-centric theme we've seen so far. More monsters like the oriental dragons, chupacabra, etc. Explore mayan, celtic, hindu, african, native american mythos for new creatures. Take a whole world view.
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A niche that I have always found lacking is freshwater monsters. These would be monsters found in rivers, streams, ponds and lakes.
Right now, there really is no real fear of wading into that dark slow moving stream that comes up to your hips. At worst maybe a snake bites you.
I'd love to see something to make that ranger think twice before diving in...
I include a few home made river and lake critters in my games.
A tentacled menace, that looks like a small octopus but the body is almost all mouth with sharp teeth, and the tentacles are poisoned.
A critter that nests in the bottom and waits for fish to swim close or stupid land animals to step in it and it snaps shut... like a Venus Flytrap... again... bit teeth
An electric eel that is able to zap its prey up to 20 feet away.
a fresh water gelatinous cube variant... almost completely invisible underwater.
A Sea Weed variant that uses toxins to stun its prey and then it feeds on the stunned body sucking it of nutrients.
Burrowing worms... I miss the Rot Grub!
Just a few that I use to make freshwater encounters a little more challenging and not so boring.
Incidentally, while running the Shackled City Adventure Path, I built a cool encounter that involved Gnolls allying with an advanced Achaierai who served as a war-beast (ala Hannibal's elephants) and (being intelligent) a skirmish leader all in one.
It would crash through the woods, rampage through the middle of an opposing party, gnolls throwing spears from its back, release its insanity spores, then crash back off into the forest. A while later, it'd return with its retinue, present itself to whatever sane members remained of the madness-shattered party, and croak ominously, "Had enough?"
So I think the bird-beastie has legs (pardon the pun) in terms of cool encounter building.
By the way, I say "would" because the party decided to dump a ton of gold on a teleport scroll instead of trudging back to their home-city through the woods, bypassing the whole encounter. Ah well, at least I have it for later. n.n;
The ogre magi could probably stand to get cut and replaced by one of two things: An ogre with sorcerer levels, or an actual oni. At the VERY LEAST, the ogre magi needs to be rebalanced, though; that's for sure.
I'm torn on this. On one level, I'm a fan of Japanese mythology and monsters, so I don't want Oni to just go away. On the other hand, I kind of hate the way D&D has always excised the Japanese elements from the poor bastitch... while still frequently illustrating it as an ogre samurai or whatever.
No offense to you Paizo guys, or even the author, but I really wanted to kick the Dragon article, 'The Ecology of the Ogre Mage' in the shins.
You are aware that that's a "Velociraptor" right?
Incidentally, for some reason I've always been glad they never switched out names on these things, being as velociraptors were the ones the size of medium-small dogs and the deininychuses were bigger and pack hunters.
Then again, it's pretty clear the 3E deinonychuses are the movie raptors because they're Large and all. As far as I remember, the real deinonychus was about the size of a wolf, plus tail.
While this doesn;'t deal with the monsters so much as how they are laid out, I hated the 3ed books when it came to Monster Manuals, they were horrid to read through, monsters bleeding over into other monsters pages, etc. Can we have an older style layout, 1 page = 1 monster? This way I can unbind my book, and throw it in a 3 ring binder, when a new book comes out, I can combine them again, etc. Then for monsters I use during the game, I can take them out and put them in my adventure notes, so I don't need to copy the dang stat block all the flippin' time.
So in short, 1 page = 1 monster.
The vast swaths of templated monsters sounds like it would be ideal for a web enhancement. Its just a little busy work, and you don't spend the money on art or publishing costs.
Sounds more like a project for swarms of DMs with time on their hands. Somewhere around here there's a site with statted out NPCs and such, I can see a repository of templated monsters also.
Sorry. I'm using 'PPB' as shorthand for Paizo Pathfinder Bestiary (see the thread title) since there isn't a working name yet.
At one point James or Eric (sorry I forgot who) used the name "Big Ass Book of Monsters" which is much better than Paizo Pathfinder Beastiary. I assume that is a working name and not an actual product name... though it would be cool if it were. In any case it's unlikely Paizo will be included in the title if Pathfinder is.
I always thought it would be cool to have monsters like hags more customizable, so instead of having green and night hag and the other one *blushes* (Oh, sea hag, right?), give the hag entry a list of powers to choose from, and get differnet hags this way (Like the ghost template). On second thought, this wouldn't be backwards compatible at all, so... hm...
Immortalize me James. IMMORTALIZE ME !!
I like big butts and I can not lie
You other fighters can't deny
That when a Gnoll walks in with an itty bitty waist
And a round thing in your face
You roll dice, wanna pull out your mace
'Cause that butt was in your face
It would crash through the woods, rampage through the middle of an opposing party, gnolls throwing spears from its back, release its insanity spores, then crash back off into the forest. A while later, it'd return with its retinue, present itself to whatever sane members remained of the madness-shattered party, and croak ominously, "Had enough?"But wouldn't its spores drive many of the gnolls crazy?
The Achaierai is not so impressive a threat if most of its retinue are stabbing their master and each other, babbling insanely or jumping of its back and running away.
Gnolls with gas masks.
*shudder*
Rock Baboons, Aerial Servant, blackball, cyclops, dinosaurs, dinosaurs, dinosaurs, drakes, helion, hsaio, hydrax, manscorpion, mek, undine,from old editions.
Next , six legged cat-bugs. Like Tigeroaches or something.
Dinosaurs with mesmerism powers. "T rex charmed me."
A race of stone people. Silicoids-like.
Buzzards the bleed poison.
A plant with a clubbed bulb. Like a flail snail but more like a flial flower.
Frogs that sense, seek, and eat magic items.
Anything you can stick a snake head on. Even disembodied , flying, snake heads. With wings. And poison.
Edit:
And, an Helliphino. It's a pachyderm that radiates confuse effects.
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Add my voice to the yes to oriental dragons crowd. Also with various creatures be careful about size categories. Medium size is 4-8 ft tall (if tall) or 4-8 ft nose to BASE of tail (if long) In a few cases with dinosaurs in the MM the tail was included when calculating size category (velociraptor is small, deinonychus medium, megaraptor large) A minor quibble I know but one that just drives me a bit nuts.
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The Tojanida is part of a set. If you check out the Monster Manual, the Arrowhawk, Tojanida, Salamander and Xorn are paralels.
All 4 come in small, medium and large, and all 4 have the same challenge rating. So why keep the fire, earth and air creatures and axe the water? Makes no sence.
Ditch Tojanida and replace it with the Water Weird, the original part of 'the set.' 'Cause the original was way better than the three-armed magnetohydrodynamic mini-Gamera.
Some of the 3.0 monsters felt like they were thrown in because someone realized, 'Hey, we need a monster with a Sonic attack!' and somebody else said, 'Siren? Some Harpy variant? Banshee? Doombat? That Dune Stalker thing from Fiend Folio?' and got shouted down by a crazy person who said, 'No! Like a Wyvern with a unicorn horn that shoots a sonic lance, only with an unpronounceable name!' Then someone else said, 'Well, we did need more monsters to pad out the letter 'Y...''
One other thing: why was the salamander (the fire part of the set) evil while all the others are neutral? Make salamanders neutral please.
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@Heathy - yeah, make dire animals dire, not spiny.
@Deussu - you've got to have girallons, to populate the red planet along with thri-kreen. And you've got a few mythological beasts in there that need keeping.
@Jal Dorak - Am I having a memory malfunction? My daughter has my 1st ed books right now -- what is it about the hydra that needs recovery?
Thri kreen aren't OGL unfortunately. I liked the mantis people.