Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Another way to look at it is to look at the races chapter of the Beta: the races listed there are the core races for the game, and therefore they're not "monsters" and might not show up in the monster book.
Speaking of PC "monsters" and leveled monsters, is there any chance that the monstrous races might be presented with a few pre-built classes? For example, it would be nice if the drow entry included stat blocks for a run of the mill drow and a priestess. The default CR 1 drow just isn't all that useful as the generic drow elf. Similarly, while I can see not wanting to put in all the PC races, and think that's a good idea, humans are a frequent antagonist, and having a few ready made stat blocks for them would be cool.
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Speaking of PC "monsters" and leveled monsters, is there any chance that the monstrous races might be presented with a few pre-built classes? For example, it would be nice if the drow entry included stat blocks for a run of the mill drow and a priestess. The default CR 1 drow just isn't all that useful as the generic drow elf. Similarly, while I can see not wanting to put in all the PC races, and think that's a good idea, humans are a frequent antagonist, and having a few ready made stat blocks for them would be cool.
Another way to look at it is to look at the races chapter of the Beta: the races listed there are the core races for the game, and therefore they're not "monsters" and might not show up in the monster book.
Even using a condensed statblock format. But seems like space limitations might prevent this.
One thing I definitely want: cool descriptions of the monsters that I can read to my players. In my opinion, this was the best addition to the 3.5 MM. I realize these descriptions aren't part of the SRD, but surely Paizo can cook up something!
Creative Director
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Crazy ideas for saving page count:
Some crazier than others! :)
1. Focus on creatures more suited to the Pathfinder Adventure Path Levels (1-15); mainly creatures in the 5 to 15 CR range. The Tarrasque is great and all, but is he needed for the more common campaign levels? Save some of the bigger creatures for a future book.
Since the book needs to support the entire arc of play (levels 1-20), focusing on lower level isn't really an option. The book is bigger than the Adventure Paths. And even they need monsters of CR 16+ now and then...
2. Hold some grouped creatures for future volumes. Put a Hill Giant and a Stone Giant in the first book, and present other giants in volume two.
This could work for some groups (Inevitables and formians, I'm looking at you!), but others, like giants and nagas, are pretty solid core monsters and we need them all.
3. Remove a few grouped creatures entirely from the base book. Give Dragons their own Pathfinder Draconomicon! If that's too iconic, pull the celestial and infernal denizens and put them in the Big Fun Coloring Book of the Outer Planes.
Dragons MUST be in the book. That's guarenteed. And I'm not gonna give up the demons, which means devils and daemons are in there too. Again, though... formians might be getting the boot. Mephits too... at least SOME of them...
On a separate request, a proper return of the para- and quasi-elementals would be most appreciated, although they sound more like something for a second volume. Always had fun throwing oddball elementals at the party - players are OK with fire elements, but usually freak when the magma elemental pops up.
These would be cool, but this is a GREAT example of monster types that would be best served by waiting for the next monster book.
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Creative Director
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Speaking of PC "monsters" and leveled monsters, is there any chance that the monstrous races might be presented with a few pre-built classes? For example, it would be nice if the drow entry included stat blocks for a run of the mill drow and a priestess. The default CR 1 drow just isn't all that useful as the generic drow elf. Similarly, while I can see not wanting to put in all the PC races, and think that's a good idea, humans are a frequent antagonist, and having a few ready made stat blocks for them would be cool.
Another way to look at it is to look at the races chapter of the Beta: the races listed there are the core races for the game, and therefore they're not "monsters" and might not show up in the monster book.
It's unlikely. Again, for space concerns. We MIGHT be able to do a few of them for major races like aasmiar, duergar, derro, drow, and tieflings... but again, I suspect that a big book of NPCs is best served as its own, separate book. If it comes down to 3 types of drow or drow + 2 more monsters... the second route will be my favored one.
The thing is that they are logically impossible. The outerplanes are ideal-space, which in D+D were defined as various mixtures of the Alignments taken broadly (the Law interpretation which justifies Modrons is a lot different than the Law interpretation most characters can use for thinking about how their alignment works). How do you have an ideal creature composed of no ideals? You can't.
Thing is, the Rilmani embodied a mixture of all alignments in balance. If the balance of those alignments changed in any major way across the planes, the Rilmani suffered, and they honestly felt that they had to actively ensure a Balance or else they faced certain doom.
The older, predecessor race to the Rilmani known as the Kamarel embodied a xenophobic rejection of all other alignments. They're harder to define certainly, but they only appeared in a single sourcebook.
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Creative Director
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One thing I definitely want: cool descriptions of the monsters that I can read to my players. In my opinion, this was the best addition to the 3.5 MM. I realize these descriptions aren't part of the SRD, but surely Paizo can cook up something!
While the goal is to have a picture for every monster... shot descriptions are a must, I think. It's a good addition, and serves the current MM quite well.
Le-sigh. I take off my hat in remembrance of you, Modrons... seeing as Wizards of the Coast likely won't be bringing you back either.
Between the modron situation and how long the faerie dragon took to get a 3e version, I swear, somebody over at WotC must have absolutely loathed those guys. Absolutely classic monsters that got ignored time and time again. :/
And I should point out that faerie dragons are very possibly my favorite monster of all time. Yes, more than the various 'loths.
A small reptilian figure with orange and black butterfly wings swoops in to the thread
YAY! Faerie Dragons!
Small and fleet
Cute and Sweet
Give me apple pie to eat!
If that's the case then Rilmani should have all alignment tags. Ie, their alignment might be N, but they should have [Chaos][Evil][Good][Lawful] tags.
Or assume that the metaphysical values effectively cancel one another out for the purposes of game mechanical meaning. It's easier on the numbers that way too. *shrugs*
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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It's unlikely. Again, for space concerns. We MIGHT be able to do a few of them for major races like aasmiar, duergar, derro, drow, and tieflings... but again, I suspect that a big book of NPCs is best served as its own, separate book. If it comes down to 3 types of drow or drow + 2 more monsters... the second route will be my favored one.
What about presenting the base drow as, say, a level 5 rogue, instead of a level 1 warrior and then slipping in a paragraph about drow racial abilities for use in building NPCs? I'd almost say this should apply to all the monsters that are presented as level 1 warriors (unless that is the typical power level for that monster (e.g., kobolds and goblins)). The default stat block for creatures where you almost always add class levels (e.g., drow, githyanki, etc) are pretty useless. It's not as if you just add class levels on to that base stat block - first you've got to back into what the modifiers are for the race, then build it like a PC in order to take out the warrior bits.
Anyway, just a thought for making drow/githyanki/etc. more useful out of the box.
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I may have missed the post earlier, as i am too lazy to read all the post but one monster needs to come back: Froghemoth. I think one of the ToH books had it. Paizo needs to get that sick puppy back into general play and let all players quail at their impending doom!There's a froghemoth on today's blog.
If there's ONE (1) monster I'll be fighting tooth and nail to get into this book from the Tome of Horrors, it's the froghemoth.
Yeah I saw the picture and remembered the Arena from AoW with it as well and went hell yeah.
So thank you Mr. Jacobs for bringing back a fond memory of my High School years.
I remember that old boy from S3, thank you Mr.Jacobs for bringing back a fond memory of my High School years!
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Creative Director
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What about presenting the base drow as, say, a level 5 rogue, instead of a level 1 warrior and then slipping in a paragraph about drow racial abilities for use in building NPCs? I'd almost say this should apply to all the monsters that are presented as level 1 warriors (unless that is the typical power level for that monster (e.g., kobolds and goblins)). The default stat block for creatures where you almost always add class levels (e.g., drow, githyanki, etc) are pretty useless. It's not as if you just add class levels on to that base stat block - first you've got to back into what the modifiers are for the race, then build it like a PC in order to take out the warrior bits.
I'd still want to err on the side of the low end, presenting a 1st level drow fighter (not necessarily a warrior). I disagree that the default stats are useless, though; they're great for the "mook" caste. Once you start adding levels to a creature, it becomes more unique and as a result it's going to want story and flavor to support it; that's the role the adventure plays. But being able to say "a dozen drow accompany Zivarasnis the wizard," and then just using the standard 1st level baseline drow fighter stat block is pretty handy.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'd still want to err on the side of the low end, presenting a 1st level drow fighter (not necessarily a warrior). I disagree that the default stats are useless, though; they're great for the "mook" caste. Once you start adding levels to a creature, it becomes more unique and as a result it's going to want story and flavor to support it; that's the role the adventure plays. But being able to say "a dozen drow accompany Zivarasnis the wizard," and then just using the standard 1st level baseline drow fighter stat block is pretty handy.
I can see that point, but there are so many humanoids at CR 1/2-1, it'd be nice if they could be spread out more, particularly in the case of the drow and the githyanki, which are traditionally mid-level foes. It's handy to say "a dozen drow accompany Zivarasnis the wizard", but only if Zivarasnis is somewhere in the 4th-6th level range. After that point, the drow are just speedbumps. IMO, a gang of your off-the-shelf drow should be able to tangle with creatures in their native enviornment, which means they should be a little better than 1st level. (I'm assuming the Darklands is like the Underdark in that it is filled with nasty creatures.)
Even if the case can't be made for the drow, it's much stronger for the gith. You generally won't encounter them until you are plane hopping. At that point, it'd be nice to show off their shtick, which is gish multi-classes (a tough build to do on the fly) and monks.
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I'd still want to err on the side of the low end, presenting a 1st level drow fighter (not necessarily a warrior).
I'd be thrilled if most or all of the 'grunt' members of humanoid races, such as Hobgoblins, Gnolls or Orcs, used *class* levels instead of NPC class levels, with the 'generic' Hobgoblin being a 1st level Fighter, the 'generic' Gnoll being a 1st level Ranger and the 'generic' Orc being a 1st level Barbarian, since those are kinda supposed to be the most common 'Favored' class choices among them.
Besides, if my players are fighting Hobgoblins, they are fighting Hobgoblin raiders or mercenaries or thugs, who are justified having an actual *Fighter* level, not random Hobgoblin slaves who happened to be out picking strawberries and chasing butterflies.
Wouldn't these creatures work better conceptually if they were the same size as the PCs. When I think of a stalker I think of someone following you and sort of making a game out of it, weaving through crowds of people, etc. I don't think of something shaped like an ogre.
As I write this it occurs to me that the invisible stalker as written is sort of like the creature from Predator. Would he be a good example of a Large stalking creature?
I personally have imagined them as medium creatures. That may in part due to the somewhat humanoid form they are depicted as having in the current Monster Manual. For some reason it makes me think of a more humanoid sized creature. Maybe if it were given a different form in the picture I would more easily connect it with large creatures.
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Humans, humans, humaaans!!!
And the Gargantua! I've been waiting for it since 3rd edition came out.
Kaiju/Gargantua are certainly monsters.
But are humans? Are dwarves and elves? Duergar and drow are, sure... but do people really want pages of human soldiers and elven scouts in their monster book? Wouldn't they rather have stats for these guys in another product?
Agreed, I have a PHB that tells me, most of, what I need to know about core races. The space would be better used on something else.
I'd be thrilled if most or all of the 'grunt' members of humanoid races, such as Hobgoblins, Gnolls or Orcs, used *class* levels instead of NPC class levels, with the 'generic' Hobgoblin being a 1st level Fighter, the 'generic' Gnoll being a 1st level Ranger and the 'generic' Orc being a 1st level Barbarian, since those are kinda supposed to be the most common 'Favored' class choices among them.
I think the problem with this idea is that a hobgoblin fighter is CR2 which is a significant upgrade from the current status and seriously tweaks encounter design. Drow or other >LA+2 creatures I can see being statted with fighter because they will more than likely have more levels but the LA +1 creatures are very likely to be encountered as is.
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Yeah, why do all dire animals have some pineal tumor leading to bizarre bone growth?I was at the Royal Ontario Museum a month ago. They had some cool displays of prehistoric mammals - like Dire Sloths the size of a Grizzly Bear.
I was just in Colorado and bought some Dire Sloth poop, which is surprisingly tiny compared to the animal that dropped it.
....sorry....
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I'm not terribly fond of the idea that "randomly encountered" NPCs will necessarily have class levels in PC classes. Given that, if we can assume that traditional 3.X demographics hold, 91% of the population is a Commoner 1, I'm much happier with NPC-classed defaults.
That said, there are a few ways this could be tweaked to make it easier to swallow. You might, for instance, give all the non-core races a favored NPC class; you might instead suggest that all NPC classes are automatically favored, or that a character/monster may choose an NPC class at 1st level as favored instead of their racial favored class options.
It would also be lovely to have an arcanist NPC class. Seriously.
I'm not terribly fond of the idea that "randomly encountered" NPCs will necessarily have class levels in PC classes. Given that, if we can assume that traditional 3.X demographics hold, 91% of the population is a Commoner 1, I'm much happier with NPC-classed defaults.
That said, there are a few ways this could be tweaked to make it easier to swallow. You might, for instance, give all the non-core races a favored NPC class; you might instead suggest that all NPC classes are automatically favored, or that a character/monster may choose an NPC class at 1st level as favored instead of their racial favored class options.
I don't believe NPCs are going to get favored classes at all... don't quote me on that though.
The thing is that they are logically impossible. The outerplanes are ideal-space, which in D+D were defined as various mixtures of the Alignments taken broadly (the Law interpretation which justifies Modrons is a lot different than the Law interpretation most characters can use for thinking about how their alignment works). How do you have an ideal creature composed of no ideals? You can't. In a world where everyone is made of some mixture of G/E/L/C, a creature with *none* of those doesn't exist. It would be like saying you can have a corporeal creature with no mass-energy. Its paradoxical at a fundamental level. Its like saying 'there's a thing that exists and doesn't exist at the same time'. =><= Seriously, the crazy versions of String Theory makes more sense. Heck,...
Your view of neutrality doesn't jive with the Planescape view. Fits the 1E Manual of the Planes, but in Planescape, TN and the rilmani were a force of balance, which is just as strong of a belief as good, evil, law, chaos, True Death as a release, reality as illusion, sensation as king, gods are frauds, etc. The range of "belief stuff" that beings are composed of encompasses a very wide variety - including balance.
Edit: Whoops, Todd beat me to it. Should have finished the thread before replying. So, yeah, what he said.
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Yeah, why do all dire animals have some pineal tumor leading to bizarre bone growth?I was at the Royal Ontario Museum a month ago. They had some cool displays of prehistoric mammals - like Dire Sloths the size of a Grizzly Bear.I was just in Colorado and bought some Dire Sloth poop, which is surprisingly tiny compared to the animal that dropped it.
....sorry....
In Costa Rica, on my honeymoon, we saw two three-toed sloths doing the wild thing.
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First please excuse me if this has been mentioned before, as I have not as of yet, taken the time to read all the posts. I started out pretty good but then it became busy at work and I was unable to follow up and well by the time I arrived home the thread became the monster it is now.
That being said, there is one monster that has always seemed a little off to me. OgreMagi, this race/monster seems like a sore thumb that needs healing. Badly. Cure serious wounds even. It just doesn't fit in anyway shape or form. Especially now with the adjustment of the Ogres that have been given by the Illustrious Nick Logue and his twisted little experiment of giant concoctions. OK, so that didn't make much sense, but my point is valid lets hammer this nail down and make it "fit" better into the game and to echo earlier thoughts lets kill of dumb creatures that are unneeded and unwanted, and forget their existence, unless a logical in game, compelling reason for their being exists. Tojandas I am looking at you.
OgreMagi, this race/monster seems like a sore thumb that needs healing. Badly. Cure serious wounds even. It just doesn't fit in anyway shape or form. Especially now with the adjustment of the Ogres that have been given by the Illustrious Nick Logue
I always enjoyed the ogre mage in first edition, and I think the inspiration behind it is pretty solid, but it does need work. There were a couple of interesting articles on this at the Wizards website in the waning days of third edition, IIRC. When you look at the direction that ogres are taking in Pathfinder, I think the judgment probably needs to be made that "ogre" was simply a misnomer that stuck (and the real world situation here can be imported into the game. After all, we continue to call things bear cats and lesser pandas even after we know the popular names are misleading and inaccurate.) Apparently 4e has tried to get closer to the inspiration behind them, if I am understanding what they did with the Oni. Unless perhaps ogre magi started with ogre stock, and then were the beneficiaries of arcane engineering.
That being said, there is one monster that has always seemed a little off to me. OgreMagi, this race/monster seems like a sore thumb that needs healing. Badly. Cure serious wounds even. It just doesn't fit in anyway shape or form.
I am an Ogre and I support this message.
How "open" is the great wheel? can you make demons and devils etc even WoTC ones?All of the demons and devils in the 3.5 Monster Manual are 100% open. And you can bet they'll all be in the book.
What monsters make the cut and what ones don't will be a tough set of choices in some cases... Sea Serpents, for example, SHOULD be in the core book, but I'm not sure delvers should be.
In any event... there'll absolutely be more than one monster book. Anything that doesn't make the first round, in other words, will have more than one chance at it eventually...
The goal is, though, to have as many of the core SRD monsters in there as we can fit.
I would actually like to see demon lords/princes and the Lords of the Nine back in the core monster books instead of some supplement on the Abyss or the Hells I don't know if all of them are open game content or not but Asmodeus and Pazuzu must be since I have seen their names cropping up in some Pathfinder books.
Charles
Bring back chlorine gas breath for Green Dragons!
what he said
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No, we're going to have to cut some monsters. I prefer to think of them as sacrifices.
The tojanida is quivering in its shell, I can tell you.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Erik, don't do it, please, not the Tojanida! Or Achierai, the Weird Abyssal Bird, or the Digester with its squirting acid spray!!! ;P
... STARPANDA
....... STARPANDA
........... STARPANDA
Immortalize me James. IMMORTALIZE ME !!
Living Wall!
I want myself a crying, talking, sleeping, walking, living wall...
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You might, for instance, give all the non-core races a favored NPC class; you might instead suggest that all NPC classes are automatically favored, or that a character/monster may choose an NPC class at 1st level as favored instead of their racial favored class options.
I consider all DMG NPC classes to be favoured for everyone, in addition to the normal ones for race.
Add: Brownies. Faerie Dragons. Flumph. All the fey from the books: ice chiselers, redcaps, etc. Mammoths. Clockwork creatures. Quickling. Boggart.
Either add humans or cut every player race from the MM. I'm in favor of the latter for space considerations, the former for anti-xenophobia reasons. Take your pick.
Cut: Rust monster (the Mordenkainen's Disjunction of monsters)
Make giant and dire a template to be applied to animals. Or just cut the distinction and make them all dire.
Add: Swarm of Cane Toads to allow for Cane Toad Mutiny.