On the subject of maps, it would be nice to see Glimmerhold of the Clash of the Kingslayers module on a national map. The module's city description puts it 'on the rim of the Mindspin Mountains', and mentions trade with the dwarves of Janderhoff, if that's any help in positioning it (if the Dwarves of Golarion supplement hasn't already placed it, that is).
I think it may have been mentioned at some point in a chat that it's likely somewhere in Varisia.
Dragons Revisited makes reference on Page 26 to the fact that Taldor has laws which have encouraged bronze dragons to flock to that country and to play a part in the banking system of Taldor. It might be worth working in some of this Dragons Revisited information (or at least referencing it) in the revised and expanded Campaign Setting Taldor entry.
For that matter, I don't think I've seen anything in the first edition Campaign Setting about banking and finance generally. As a subsection in the Trade entry might be the place to include any such information - I assume that most banking is only going to operate for the benefit of merchants/governments/the upper class wishing to finance various profitable ventures, and not for the benefit of the farm-worker looking for somewhere to store his/her savings or wanting to borrow money to buy a cottage.
Elves vs Azlanti
I have found the following places where reference is made to the elves fighting the Azlanti/humans of pre-Earthfall Golarion (which conflict, if I understand correctly, it has been decided did not in fact occur and is being removed from history):
P. 8
There are a couple of paragraphs here, starting at 'Elven society peaked...' and finishing at '...the legendary homeland of the elves.' which reference this.
P. 12
The paragraph commencing 'Of all the common races...' and concluding '...even lovers.' makes several references direct or implied ('old enemies' in the latter case) to this.
P. 19
The paragraph commencing 'Elves tend to distrust humans of Azlanti...' and concluding '...human cousins.' makes several references to this.
P. 88
The paragraph commencing 'The demon dealt with...' and concluding '...of ancient cities.' implies a former threat with the elves expecting 'to be descended upon by teeming hordes of humans' and refers to 'former human adversaries'.
P. 89
The elf-Azlanti war is referenced in the section 'their scars eloquent of a time when the elves fought tooth and nail with the humans of Old Azlant. These conflicts came to an abrupt end just before the Earthfall...'
P. 155
The paragraph commencing 'When the arrogant elite...' and concluding '...advanced human culture in history.' implies that the Mordent Spire sea elves were enemies of the Azlanti.
Those are all the ones I've spotted so far on this topic.
More, much of it regarding Elves:
This past Tuesday in the chat, I raised the question of elves in places other than Avistan and Garund. The official response was that there hadn't really been any thought given to that thus far.
In the Campaign Setting:
P. 89
Kyonin, Elf Gates wrote: ...In order to better facilitate the elves' original departure, many communities built the aiudara, magical portals those races that came behind them vulgarly termed "elf gates." Through these elaborately sculpted stone arches, elves were able to step easily between settlements on opposite sides of the globe...
...these gates represented a huge part of the elves' power, as resources could be called instantly from across continents...
As an aside, is 'those races that came behind them' a reference to just the orcs and dwarves? Most of the other races were already around on the surface of Golarion by the time of Earthfall...
Back to my first main main point; with the use of the phrases 'opposite sides of the globe' and 'across continents', it seems to me that the implication is that at least before the Earthfall exodus elves were distributed all the way around Golarion.
Since the return of the elves from Sovyrian, have the elves spread back out around Golarion, or has elven power tended to be concentrated on Kyonin where the only known access to/from Sovyrian is located?
Does Queen Telandia in theory (ruling Kyonin where the Sovyrian Stone is located) have authority which is accepted by elves on other continents whose ancestors returned from Sovyrian during the Age of Enthronement? Are there elves still in Sovyrian, who owe Telandia fealty or to whom Telandia has to answer?
P. 239
Time and Space, Other Worlds wrote: ...Travel to these planets from Golarion requires magic. Most are linked by a network of portals that allow instantaneous travel between them... Are these portals part of the network of aiudara, or are they an entirely independent network? If independent, did they inspire the elves to build their aiudara or were they in fact inspired by the aiudara? (Are the interplanetary portals Azlanti or Thassilonian, perhaps? Or are their builders not elven, but currently undecided upon by Paizo?)
Are Golarion deities worshipped on other worlds?
(Hmm. At the very least, the 'elven' goddess Desna has an interest in 'the stars' and 'travel'. Perhaps she has something to do with interplanetary portals and/or aiudara...)
P. 8
Elves wrote: ...the harried elves collapsed the tunnels below Celwynvian and abandoned the haunted capital. The elves crossed Avistan in a great procession to the ancient elven kingdom of Kyonin, on the far shore of Lake Encarthan... I'm a little confused here: given that the Sovyrian Stone is in Kyonin (as far as I know), why should a pre-Earthfall elven capital be over in Celwynvian, unless there were several elven nations operating at the time, with independent capitals? (Or is it a mistake here referring to Celwynvian as a 'capital'.)
Also, since the elves returned from Sovyrian to Kyonin to fight Treerazer, why isn't there any mention of a 'great procession' from Kyonin to Celwynvian?
For that matter why did they walk at all from Celwynvian back to Kyonin, if elf gates were available?
(I believe that information on Celwynvian in the Second Darkness adventure path indicates that Celwynvian is furnished with elf gates.)
Hmm. I cracked in the end there and started using 'elf gates' instead of aiudara - apologies for that vulgarity to any elves reading this.
Edit:
I haven't spotted anything for certain in Pathfinder #15 thus far to indicate that Celwynvian was anything beyond a large powerful elven city. As a thought, maybe it was a 'provincial/regional capital' as opposed to 'national capital'?
Charles Evans 25 wrote: On the subject of maps, it would be nice to see Glimmerhold of the Clash of the Kingslayers module on a national map. The module's city description puts it 'on the rim of the Mindspin Mountains', and mentions trade with the dwarves of Janderhoff, if that's any help in positioning it (if the Dwarves of Golarion supplement hasn't already placed it, that is).
I think it may have been mentioned at some point in a chat that it's likely somewhere in Varisia.
Glimmerhold actually caused us no end of frustration, and is why every superstar module SINCE that one has had the requirement of "must be set in Golarion from the start." A lot of the original draft of "Kingslayers" simply didn't fit with Golarion; not only was Glimmerhold in a strange place, but you had things like derros and dwarves living together in peace... crazy stuff! :-)
Anyway, as for Glimmerhold, it and, in theory, EVERY new location that we've mentioned in any product ever will be placed on the maps as appropriate.
In any event, Glimmerhold is as far away from Varisia as possible while still being in the Mindspin Mountains. The closer it gets to Varisia, the weirder it gets since it's a major city and we detailed the HELL out of Varisia. That region's not a very good one to just drop in new locations to.
Charles Evans 25 wrote: Dragons Revisited makes reference on Page 26 to the fact that Taldor has laws which have encouraged bronze dragons to flock to that country and to play a part in the banking system of Taldor. It might be worth working in some of this Dragons Revisited information (or at least referencing it) in the revised and expanded Campaign Setting Taldor entry.
We're going to be downplaying that. Dragons and human nations interacting at such a level isn't very "Golariony."
Charles Evans 25 wrote: Comment/observation:
When the Lastwall entry gets revised, it might be nice to see more about the Shining Crusade. For example at present it's stated that 'General Arnisant sacrificed himself to imprison Tar-Baphon', but there are no details, though there is mention of how in a key confrontation the lich attempted to destroy the general but failed, destroying the general's shield instead.
The Timeline on page 202 also refers in the 3832 AR entry to Iomedae as a 'heroine of the Shining Crusade', but there is absolutely no mention at all in the current Lastwall entry to anything that she may have done in the Shining Crusade, which seems somewhat odd. (Was that down to lack of space?)
Seeing mention of some of the crucial battles against the Tar-Baphon might be useful (old battlefields and events which took place on them offer certain possibilities for adventure hooks) although granted some of these may actually be in Ustalav or Belkzen.
(Hmm, actually there might be a whole book in this about the Shining Crusade for the Chronicles line.)
There is more info about Iomedae and her actions during the Shining Crusade in the "Vigil" city entry in Cities of Golarion.
Like a lot of things, data accrete over time, and at the time I wrote the Lastwall entry, I had to hit the main highlights of the city itself, and you get a lot of passing references to things (like the bit about where the orcs and half-orcs lived that you referenced, vs. what later products have described or not described about orcs being a big deal in those countries). That's always the risk when you have dozens of authors working on big books; even when you have details that don't CONFLICT, you may have details that don't necessarily support one another either.
Anyway, as for Iomedae, in the much larger city entry for Vigil - 7000 words, rather than one 1500-word spread, I had much more time to talk about the history of a specific area, and the foundation of the Iomedaean faith there.
Jason Nelson wrote: ...There is more info about Iomedae and her actions during the Shining Crusade in the "Vigil" city entry in Cities of Golarion... And there's information about Rovagug and his minions in 'Gods and Magic' and in several of the Legacy of Fire adventure path modules, but that doesn't mean that it's not useful to have a simple overview of him, his church, and his faith in the Campaign Setting. ;)
And as an aside have you *seen* what the exchange rates have been doing recently? At approx £15 a Pathfinder right now, keeping up with just the Kingmaker path is a financial nightmare for me here in the UK on my budget (I'm having to wait at present until I can get several in one go to maximise the shop discount available), let alone even thinking about other books...
P. 221
Languages, Nonhuman Languages (Halfling) wrote: ...The modern language of Halfling descends directly from Taldane, and is a code-based pidgin dialect of that language and Varisian. Halfling first arose in Cheliax, where halfling slaves spoke with one another in a code to baffle their masters. Over time, as halfling ex-slaves slowly disseminated out into the world and brought their code with them, this weird dialect became a language... Just how recent a development is Halfling? Cheliax didn't actually push into Varisia until 4305 AR on the current timeline (although that isn't to say that they might not have been acquiring halfling slaves from the region before that time).
On a related note, how widespread are halflings, orcs, and dwarves in the global context?
The mention in several places in the Campaign Setting that halflings exist in association with humans could be taken to indicate that halflings are pretty evenly globally distributed (even if the Halfling language may not yet have reached all parts depending on how recently it arose - or it may have local variants) but are orcs and dwarves (apart from the occasional wandering traders or raiders) features purely of Avistan and Garund? Did other races emerge from the Darklands to arrive on the surface in other continents?
The image of Amiri on page 41 overruns into the text in the dead tree version of the Campaign Setting, as does the image of Merisiel on page 49.
Given that the 'character classes in Golarion' section is being scrunched down though, I suspect that this problem will go away anyway in the edits... :)
Charles Evans 25 wrote: The image of Amiri on page 41 overruns into the text in the dead tree version of the Campaign Setting, as does the image of Merisiel on page 49.
Given that the 'character classes in Golarion' section is being scrunched down though, I suspect that this problem will go away anyway in the edits... :)
Those images of the iconics are unlikely to see print again in a book beyond an advertisement anytime soon. We've kinda reprinted them to death.
P. 40
Other Races, Drow wrote: ...Those few elves who stayed on Golarion to face the Earthfall fled underground and became the drow... As a general comment this gives the impression that every last elf who stayed on Golarion instead of heading off to Sovyrian went underground and turned into a drow. This is directly contradicted by information on page 88 which reports a number of different fates/lifestyles for the various groups of elves who remained behind on Golarion.
On page 53 there is a paragraph commencing 'Magic becomes more common...' and concluding '...Acadamae wizarding school.' If you're looking for something to fill a magic section for the Campaign Setting it might be worth looking at some basic feats to represent the flavour of some of these.
(And as a matter of curiousity is the word 'wizarding' either an americanism or official Paizoism?)
Also of possible interest for a magic section (or Golarion specific diseases???) there is a reference on page 27 to 'mystics conduct regular cleansing rituals to cast off the evil effects' with regard to unpleasant transformations incurred by Kellids operating in the general vicinity of the Worldwound.
P. 54
Absalom wrote: ...According to myth, Absalom was founded by Aroden himself when the Last of the First Humans raised the Starstone from the ocean depths and left it in its current resting place at the heart of the city... Given the capital letters, I assume that 'Last of the First Humans' is some sort of title for Aroden? It seems a bit contorted to me.
As a very minor nitpick, if Aroden found the Starstone pretty much where it currently is, which is to say in the Inner Sea, he did not raise it from the 'ocean depths' because the Starstone was not in an ocean, it was in a sea. (Apologies about this one, it's partially geological pedantry on my part.)
Charles Evans 25 wrote: P. 54
Absalom wrote: ...According to myth, Absalom was founded by Aroden himself when the Last of the First Humans raised the Starstone from the ocean depths and left it in its current resting place at the heart of the city... Given the capital letters, I assume that 'Last of the First Humans' is some sort of title for Aroden? It seems a bit contorted to me.
As a very minor nitpick, if Aroden found the Starstone pretty much where it currently is, which is to say in the Inner Sea, he did not raise it from the 'ocean depths' because the Starstone was not in an ocean, it was in a sea. (Apologies about this one, it's partially geological pedantry on my part.)
The use of ocean and sea as synonyms is not something that everyone at Paizo appreciates the complexity of.
On the subject of the distribution of races, I will add that it's not very clear from in the current Gnomes entry where the gnomes first arrived from the First World (or when) and what their distribution may be on other continents?
There is some mention in the current Gnomes entry of gnome 'trailblazers' scouting out Golarion during the Age of Anguish, but there are no dates (not even approximate ones) either in the Gnomes entry or in the timeline.
Did the arrival of the gnomes have any impact on the recovery of civilizations from the Age of Darkness?
A couple of interesting things which struck me, skimming various entries:
1) On page 31, in the Taldan entry where it's talking about deities and religion, it seems to imply to me that Cayden Cailean and Norgorber are both humans of Taldan race (if I am reading it correctly). This is the sort of thing worth noting in your files on the deities, if you haven't done so correctly. (It also states that Iomedae is more widely worshiped than Cayden Cailean and Norgorber.)
2) On page 37 there's a comment that 'Varisian clerics typically worship Desna, but many also pay homage to the host of angels Varisians believe serve Desna.' It seems to me that if the Varisians entry needs more detail it might be nice to have a few more pieces added here (names and functions of some of the more common angels for example - possibly items associated with them).
Tidying up another loose end, on page 15 in the Half-Orcs entry there is reference to one 'Pirate Queen Imesah, who emblazons the yellow sails of her half-dozen galleys with her black ensign of elephant tusks crossed beneath a crowned skull'. There isn't actually any mention made of where she operates, although the implication seems to be that it's off the coast of Garund. Some clarification of the waters in which she operates would be useful and in particular off which coast? If she operates off the west coast of Garund then it seems likely to me that this independent self styled 'pirate queen' is going to clash with the Hurricane King and pirates who operate out of the Shackles.
Charles Evans 25 wrote: Tidying up another loose end, on page 15 in the Half-Orcs entry there is reference to one 'Pirate Queen Imesah, who emblazons the yellow sails of her half-dozen galleys with her black ensign of elephant tusks crossed beneath a crowned skull'. There isn't actually any mention made of where she operates, although the implication seems to be that it's off the coast of Garund. Some clarification of the waters in which she operates would be useful and in particular off which coast? If she operates off the west coast of Garund then it seems likely to me that this independent self styled 'pirate queen' is going to clash with the Hurricane King and pirates who operate out of the Shackles.
THese types of name drops are more or less being excised from the race section entirely. It's not the right place in the book to name drop folks. They get relocated to the appropriate region later in the book.
As for the "angels who serve Desna," this will be made more explicitly clear that Varisians sometimes worship the chaotic good Empyrial Lords who are mentioned later in the deity chapter.
James Jacobs wrote: Charles Evans 25 wrote: Tidying up another loose end, on page 15 in the Half-Orcs entry there is reference to one 'Pirate Queen Imesah, who emblazons the yellow sails of her half-dozen galleys with her black ensign of elephant tusks crossed beneath a crowned skull'. There isn't actually any mention made of where she operates, although the implication seems to be that it's off the coast of Garund. Some clarification of the waters in which she operates would be useful and in particular off which coast? If she operates off the west coast of Garund then it seems likely to me that this independent self styled 'pirate queen' is going to clash with the Hurricane King and pirates who operate out of the Shackles.
THese types of name drops are more or less being excised from the race section entirely. It's not the right place in the book to name drop folks. They get relocated to the appropriate region later in the book.
As for the "angels who serve Desna," this will be made more explicitly clear that Varisians sometimes worship the chaotic good Empyrial Lords who are mentioned later in the deity chapter. With regard to the deities chapter, don't forget to clarify the Calistria/Cayden Cailean/test of the Starstone business so that hopefully future Superstar contestants do not mistake Cayden's intentions of bravado. ;)
Hmm, will it [the deity chapter] still be a 'deities and other planes' chapter, or will the 'other planes' stuff be moving elsewhere? If so what happens to the empyreal/devil/daemon/demon/protean(?) lords stuff? Do they remain with the planes which they occupy, or do they move in with the deities (and philosophies?)?
Charles Evans 25 wrote: Hmm, will it [the deity chapter] still be a 'deities and other planes' chapter, or will the 'other planes' stuff be moving elsewhere? If so what happens to the empyreal/devil/daemon/demon/protean(?) lords stuff? Do they remain with the planes which they occupy, or do they move in with the deities (and philosophies?)?
It's going to be a Deities & the Great Beyond chapter. The otherplanar stuff will remain at the back half of the chapter, and all of the demigods and lesser gods will be in there too. The entire Religion chapter in the current hardcover is going to look VERY similar, words wise (not necessarily layout-wise) to the new book. The major change will be that the big list of domains on page 159 will go away (since those domains are now all part of the core game), and instead that page will have a big table of deities that will look identical to the one on the inside front cover to Gods & Magic.
I hope that that's an indication that it's not going to be called just the 'Religion' chapter in the revised edition. One of those strange things about the current edition is going to a chapter titled 'Religion' to find out information about the City of Brass.
'Deities & the Great Beyond' is probably heading in the right direction though. :)
More on the topic of dragons:
The article in Pathfinder #4 on dragons mentions the 'Obelisks of Fate', two flying draconic libraries it might be worth giving a mention in the dragon section in the monsters chapter (assuming the obelisks remain in Golarion Canon). It also details that (at least to the more intellectually minded dragons) mathematics, numerology, and astronomy are all draconic pursuits.
The draconic interest in these things (well at least for some dragons) is carried over into and supported in the Dragons Revisited book, and mention made of some dragons getting quite annoyed when humans steal their discoveries/research.
Sort of off-topic, I can imagine some fun discussions that you're having over things such as whether to adopt into the Campaign Setting some of the material from subsequently released articles in Pathfinder, and how the description of the Brimstone Haruspex from the Belkzen article in Pathfinder #11 could have come to differ in some details from the information in the Campaign Setting Belkzen entry. :D
More seriously, what are you doing with regard to 'old' material which may not (even if adventure paths are compiled, updated, and reprinted) see print again? Some of the Pathfinder Journals had useful sidebars that tied in to the stories in the journal which could be used to expand Campaign Setting entries; for example on page 74 of Pathfinder #9 is a sidebar on the flora and fauna of Belkzen which could be drawn from to expand the flora entry, the fauna entry, and/or the Belkzen entry of the revised Campaign Setting if you are certain that you are unlikely to reprint the Pathfinder Journals with supporting sidebars again.
As a minor comment, the Sihedron rune seems to have been used as an emblem to represent the Varisia regional entry in the current setting. Is Varisia sufficiently defined, even in the current day, by ancient Thassilon and its ruins (and culture, possibly in the case of the Shoanti and stone giants?) for this to make sense?
Hmm. I suppose the major settlements (Korvosa, Magnimar, Riddleport, and Sandpoint) do all have Thassilonian ruins of one kind or another, and it's difficult to wander around the countryside without tripping over some abandoned temple to Lissala, military base of Karzoug, forgotten library, fiend-powered dam, or beauty spa of Sorshen. Okay, so maybe the Sihedron does make sense. :)
There's certainly not room in the new book, even with its extra 64 pages, to adopt EVERYTHING that we've mentioned in other books into it. At the same time, we want to take this opportunity to do some new stuff or talk about things we've never had the time or the right place to talk about before -- such as defining exactly WHAT those festivals are, or nailing down dates of pre Age of Darkness events, or statting up a Numerian Spine Dragon.
The majority of information on topics that aren't directly related to nations, though -- and this means most everything in "Dragons Revisited" and other books -- isn't going to have room to be mentioned or expanded upon in the World Guide. Which is fine, since "world expansion" is what those books are all about, anyway.
Old material that's in books that go out of print won't go anywhere. Remember, the PDFs of all our products will remain for sale even after the books go out of print. And if, for example, we decide to do something in the future that draws a lot on an old product, we might reprint it or we might just grab the relevant parts of the old out of print product and reprint those elements as part of the new book. But for the most part, once something's in print, that's pretty much it. It's all available to us, of course, to build upon -- but expending a lot of energy trying to keep EVERYTHING we ever say about Golarion in print and available forever is simply not feasible. Some of it will eventually fade into the background.
IN OTHER NEWS: Chapter 1: Races is over to edit!
James Jacobs wrote: ...IN OTHER NEWS: Chapter 1: Races is over to edit! And at this point, if you lived just down the road, I would be dropping in for a cup of tea and to terrorise you with offers of my 'assistance' with the proof-reading.
Fortunately (?) for all involved there's a small stretch of water and a continent in between. ;)
However to return to the main point, Hurrah! Bring on the next Chapter!
Chapter 7: Monsters is over to edit!
Think I'll take on Chapter 3: Deities and Beyond next, since that one should be pretty quick and easy.
James Jacobs wrote: Old material that's in books that go out of print won't go anywhere. Remember, the PDFs of all our products will remain for sale even after the books go out of print. And if, for example, we decide to do something in the future that draws a lot on an old product, we might reprint it or we might just grab the relevant parts of the old out of print product and reprint those elements as part of the new book. But for the most part, once something's in print, that's pretty much it. It's all available to us, of course, to build upon -- but expending a lot of energy trying to keep EVERYTHING we ever say about Golarion in print and available forever is simply not feasible. Some of it will eventually fade into the background. There's always PathfinderWiki, as well, collecting up all this loose canon and keeping it up to date and hyperlinked to itself :-D
For reference, on the subject of Asmodeus from the article in Pathfinder:
Pathfinder #29, Asmodeus (article) wrote: ...He is an active, thriving, masculine deity, hell-bent on discovery and conquest; he has little use for feminine qualities such as gentleness, compassion, or an inclination to nurture, and considers females lesser beings to the point of active misogyny in Hell. That mortal females would debase themselves before him despite this prejudice amuses him, fills him with contempt, and reinforces his opinion of their weakness... This seems to me to be a development of the character of Asmodeus made since the original Campaign Setting came out.
I assume that to suit his purposes Asmodeus is capable of employing misdirection to cloak his opinions if necessary, but that if he does not that this stance would impact the Asmodean church hierarchy on Golarion? (For example there would be very few women in posts with authority anywhere irrespective of their effectiveness (in game terms of their character level).)
If this does affect the church of Asmodeus on Golarion, I would think it might be worth expanding the Asmodeus entry to give some mention of it.
*Link to old thread where more recently Exoow raised a point regarding the Azlanti language*
Further to the comments currently already on that thread, the Azlanti entry on Page 18 of the current Campaign Setting specifically lists 'Ancient Azlant' as the main language of Azlanti humans.
This adds further to the confusion caused by the 'Ancient Azlanti tongue' which according to page 19 only the Mordent Spire elves speak, the 'ancient Azlanti' used in Chelish operas according page 21, and the 'Azlanti' which is a dead language according to information in the Languages section on page 220.
In summary, as far as I can determine, there are at least four different languages of similar name in circulation in the Campaign Setting:
1) Ancient Azlant, spoken by the Azlanti.
2) Ancient Azlanti, spoken by the Mordent Spire elves.
3) ancient Azlanti, used in Chelish opera (note the lower case 'a' in 'ancient', which differentiates it from the language used by the Mordent Spire elves).
4) Azlanti, which is a dead language.
It seems to me that:
1) most modern Azlanti might well speak common (the language of the Taldan and Chelish empires, where they could expect to be revered for their heritage) if surface dwellers, or Aquan if they live underwater.
2) because the Mordent Spire elves live on top of Azlanti ruins they might conceivably at the very least read the original Azlanti language because it's useful to them in their explorations of Azlanti ruins.
3) priests of Aroden and Chelish opera singers might use some bastardised form of the original Azlanti language - Aroden was a deity of invention, after all, and making up words and evolving the language could be interpretted to fit his portfolio. Up until the Age of Lost Omens, I'm going on the basis here that most Chelish opera writers would have wanted to use whatever was most 'up to date' in their pieces, in honour of their god, and then the final form of the language (since its use as a tool recalls the glories of Imperial Cheliax before the civil war) may well have become 'locked in' ever since (unless it has to some extent become corrupted by the infiltration of the diabolic into Chelish culture and society).
4) I'm not sure what any Azlanti holdouts who may or may not currently exist elsewhere in the world might speak. (I'm trying not to give away specific spoilers here which have been mentioned in the chat). If they were in touch with their deity still, up until the time of their demise, it would seem to me that probably it would be whatever the general church of Aroden used. If they were in utter isolation, and had taken up worshipping something or someone else other than Aroden, they probably would have either adopted the local tongue, or developed their own form of the original Azlanti language - in which latter case it may or may not be partially recognisable to someone who is familiar with the original Azlanti language.
Anyway, it's a tricky topic.
Edit:
As a thought, what about some sort of 'family tree' (or chart) of languages for the revised Campaign Setting, showing which are related to which, and how they descended/evolved? Off-topic for a moment, there was a diagram something like that in the original Dragonwarriors RPG books to show how the languages of the world of Legend related to one another, and the writers were able to indicate by their use of lines and scripts how closely related languages were and whether they were dead or not.
There's only one language: Azlanti. It was spoken by the humans of Azlant. It was (and still is) spoken by the Mordant Spire elves, although they normally speak in elven. It's still used today in certain ceremonial or scholastic venues, such as operas. It's a dead language in that it's not the main language spoken by a healthy, vibrant society, but it's not a forgotten language.
It's basically the same as Latin in this world; there's no nation that speaks Latin as their main language, but there's a lot of things that utilize Latin nonetheless.
There's not going to be room to do a language "familiy tree," in any event, and such a depiction, while interesting, wouldn't really add much to game play since the way languages work in Pathfinder is VERY simplified. We don't get into things like "You speak Azlanti, so you have a chance to fumble your way through these languages." That is all more or less handled by the Linguistics skill.
Whilst not currently a Campaign Setting issue, this one could conceivably become one depending on exactly what adjustments are made to the Varisia article.
The Varisia article in Pathfinder #3 (Page 61) says:
Calphiak Mountains wrote: The Calphiak Mountains are the youngest range in Varisia, dating back a mere 10,000 years to the catalysmic end of the Thassilonian Empire. Today, the mountains are renowned for their high concentration of Thassilonian artifacts, most famously the Valley of Stars, a heavily etched crater many explorers believe to be a massive celestial observatory. Is this to say that the Calphiak Mountains 'invaded' Golarion from another world in the sort of style of the Rathi overlay from Wizards of the Coast's Invasion/Planeshift/Apocalypse cycle or of Rhoswen's demiplane threatening to encroach into Golarion in the Fellnight Queen module? If so, why were there Thassilonian 'artifacts' there already? (Were the Calphiak Mountains perhaps on another plane and had been heavily explored/occupied by Thassilon and the Earthfall event caused them to 'snap back' along the ties of planar gates Thassilon had created to access them, causing them to arrive in Golarion? If so is this perhaps related to the First World catastrophe which brougt the gnomes to Golarion?)
James Jacobs wrote: There's only one language: Azlanti. It was spoken by the humans of Azlant. It was (and still is) spoken by the Mordant Spire elves, although they normally speak in elven. It's still used today in certain ceremonial or scholastic venues, such as operas. It's a dead language in that it's not the main language spoken by a healthy, vibrant society, but it's not a forgotten language.
It's basically the same as Latin in this world; there's no nation that speaks Latin as their main language, but there's a lot of things that utilize Latin nonetheless.
There's not going to be room to do a language "familiy tree," in any event, and such a depiction, while interesting, wouldn't really add much to game play since the way languages work in Pathfinder is VERY simplified. We don't get into things like "You speak Azlanti, so you have a chance to fumble your way through these languages." That is all more or less handled by the Linguistics skill.
Fair enough, and thank-you for the clarifications.
Hmm. I wonder if there might be a Wayfinder article in this then...
Chapter 3: Deities and Beyond is over to edit!
This one turned out to be quite a bit tougher than I thought it would be, since I spent 2 days trying to cram ALL of the other gods and demigods we've mentioned into the relatively short "Other Gods" section in the middle of the chapter. After realizing that I simply couldn't fit 9,000 words of text into a space that allowed 5,400 words (a frustrating moment after the aforementioned 2 days of gathering and collating deities), I went back to the start and now the "Other Gods" section more or less looks the same as it does in the current book, save that I've added in sections for the Elemental Lords, the Eldest of the First World, and a section on false gods, dead gods, and forgotten gods.
This does mean that if you're into the various minor racial deities, you'll want to hang on to your copy of Gods and Magic or the various race companions!
Anyway, on to Chapter 4: Life on Golarion. Which will include things like when grapes are planted, what silver pieces are called, what happens during Seven Veils, and what stats to use for donkey rats.
James Jacobs wrote: Anyway, on to Chapter 4: Life on Golarion. Which will include things like when grapes are planted, what silver pieces are called, what happens during Seven Veils, and what stats to use for donkey rats. This is already my favourite, I love details like that!
James Jacobs wrote: This does mean that if you're into the various minor racial deities, you'll want to hang on to your copy of Gods and Magic or the various race companions! [shameless self-promotion]And if you're into Milani, you should make sure to get a copy of Wayfinder #3 once it's out[/shameless self-promotion]
With regard to life on Golarion, I'm not sure there are any mentions of who typically runs (generic) towns or villages in the current Campaign Setting.
Off the top of my head it seems that options may include:
Feudal overlord.
Religious authority.
Council of guild leaders and/or other political interests headed by a mayor.
'Enforced' rule (by either military or magical power).
Anarchy.
Then again (commenting on my previous post) possibly that sort of thing's already covered in the Gamesmastery Guide...
Following on from last night's chat, I thought that I'd try and summarise what is currently known about the Starstone from the canon:
History:
The Starstone arrived on Golarion during the Earthfall event (-5293 AR). The primary reference to this which I can currently find is in the Campaign Setting timeline on page 201. Indications appear to be that it probably arrived in the area now known as the Inner Sea and that the arrival of the Starstone may have rearranged the local geography as the actual Inner Sea did not exist before the Starstone arrived.
At some point after that the Starstone may well have been in the Mwangi Expanse as something known there as 'the coming of the Starstone' is referred to as 'the Day the Sun Shone for One Thousand Years' according to the Osibu section on page 107 of the Campaign Setting. It is unclear to me if this was a period local to Osibu which ran parallel to the 'Age of Darkness' that encompassed Golarion generally (was the Starstone actually in Osibu during the Age of Darkness?) or if it triggered 'the Day the Sun Shone for One Thousand Years' at some point later in the history of Golarion.
At the start of the Age of Enthronement (1 AR), Aroden caused the landmass currently known as the Isle of Kortos to rise from the waters of the Inner Sea. He became a god and left the Starstone there in the Starstone Cathedral. Reading between the lines of the Absalom entry on page 54 of the Campaign Setting and the timeline on page 201 of the Campaign Setting the implication seems to me to be that Aroden actually found the Starstone on the floor of the Inner Sea at that point.
Norgorber (1893 AR), a drunken Cayden Cailean (2765 AR) and Iomedae (3832 AR) interacted with the Starstone and become deities according to the timeline on pages 201-202 of the Campaign Setting.
Other known Starstone related details/trivia:
Those wishing to undertake the Test of the Starstone must cross the chasm to the Starstone Cathedral under their own power, not by using one of the existing bridges according to the 'Leap of Faith' sidebar on page 17 of the Guide to Absalom.
The counterpart of the Starstone Cathedral in Shadow Absalom on the Plane of Shadow radiates light and offers not divinity but a route to the Material Plane according to the Shadow Absalom section on pages 13-14 of The Great Beyond.
The annual meeting of the holders of Absalom's cornucopias is known as the 'Starstone Exaltation' meeting according to the section on cornucopias on page 60 of the Guide to Absalom.
There is a 'common belief' in Absalom that the cornucopias were made by Aroden from pieces carved from the Starstone according to the Cornucopias section of the Absalom entry on page 57 of the Campaign Setting. (However, there isn't anything that I can recall having seen in either the Campaign Setting or Guide to Absalom to indicate one way or another if this belief is correct.)
Given that the Starstone has featured in such a dramatic way in the history of at least the Inner Sea (being responsible for the ascendance of four deities, if nothing else) it seems to me that at the least it needs a section about it somewhere in either the Absalom entry or the mooted artifacts entry. This could be as simple as just a paragraph in a sidebar explaining that Paizo don't want to nail down the details of what it does just yet, that Paizo are waiting to work out their rules of epic play before giving details for it, or that current Paizo opinion is that it's something so momentous that every GM should customise it (if used) specifically for their own game. If the Starstone doesn't get a mention in the revised Campaign Setting (even to kick the issue into the long-grass), I feel that it will look like the succubus in the paladin conclave* which it's strange that nobody's talking about.
Edit:
And any kind of Starstone section will hopefully reduce occasional threads/posts asking 'what does the Starstone do???' from posters. (Or at least limit them to 'when is xxx coming out?':D)
As an aside, it seems a little bit odd to me that the word 'Starstone' is apparently automatically italicized every time it features in text. Whilst for references to the actual Starstone itself (and possibly to the Test of the Starstone) I can see it might make sense to lend the significance of the item to the text with the emphasis, it seems to me odd to see the word italicized in the context of 'Starstone Cathedral' and 'Starstone Exaltation' meeting. Wouldn't it make more sense to completely italicize these phrases, or not at all, instead of partially doing so?
*Golarion adage for 'elephant in the room'??? ;)
*Thread Bump* necessary to locate the thread on the rearranged forums.
Edit:
Oh, there it is.
Grumbles and updates bookmark.
Chapter Four: Life in Golarion and Chapter Five: Factions are both over to edit.
Only two chapters to go. Chapter Seven: Adventuring in Golarion and Chapter Two: The Inner Sea Region.
Since Chpater 7 is all about providing the crunch (in the form of prestige classes, feats, equipment, spells, magic items and artifacts) for the rest of the book, I realized I can't really tackle that until I finish Chapter 2, so that I'm sure that all the idle mentions of things like charms of allum control or the harrow spell or the like are properly handled in Chapter 7.
Chapter 2 is the biggest chapter in the book. It's 180 pages long, in fact. It's kind of intimidating me. Maybe I'll go get lunch instead.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote: Since Chpater 7 is all about providing the crunch (in the form of prestige classes, feats, equipment, spells, magic items and artifacts) for the rest of the book, I realized I can't really tackle that until I finish Chapter 2, so that I'm sure that all the idle mentions of things like charms of allum control or the harrow spell or the like are properly handled in Chapter 7. It's "aluum", btw. :-D
delabarre wrote: James Jacobs wrote: Since Chpater 7 is all about providing the crunch (in the form of prestige classes, feats, equipment, spells, magic items and artifacts) for the rest of the book, I realized I can't really tackle that until I finish Chapter 2, so that I'm sure that all the idle mentions of things like charms of allum control or the harrow spell or the like are properly handled in Chapter 7. It's "aluum", btw. :-D It's also "Chapter," not "Chpater."
And if you're going to correct spelling, it's classier to not speak in acronym. By the way. :-P
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
James Jacobs wrote: Chapter Four: Life in Golarion and Chapter Five: Factions are both over to edit.
Only two chapters to go. Chapter Seven: Adventuring in Golarion and Chapter Two: The Inner Sea Region.
Since Chpater 7 is all about providing the crunch (in the form of prestige classes, feats, equipment, spells, magic items and artifacts) for the rest of the book, I realized I can't really tackle that until I finish Chapter 2, so that I'm sure that all the idle mentions of things like charms of allum control or the harrow spell or the like are properly handled in Chapter 7.
Chapter 2 is the biggest chapter in the book. It's 180 pages long, in fact. It's kind of intimidating me. Maybe I'll go get lunch instead.
Keep on rockin' James!
James Jacobs wrote: Chapter Four: Life in Golarion and Chapter Five: Factions are both over to edit.
Only two chapters to go. Chapter Seven: Adventuring in Golarion and Chapter Two: The Inner Sea Region.
Since Chpater 7 is all about providing the crunch (in the form of prestige classes, feats, equipment, spells, magic items and artifacts) for the rest of the book, I realized I can't really tackle that until I finish Chapter 2, so that I'm sure that all the idle mentions of things like charms of allum control or the harrow spell or the like are properly handled in Chapter 7.
Chapter 2 is the biggest chapter in the book. It's 180 pages long, in fact. It's kind of intimidating me. Maybe I'll go get lunch instead.
<Does some quick maths>
Just look on it as 40 odd regions in Avistan and Garund and a score or so of pages of other stuff. There: it sounds smaller already, doesn't it? :)
I know that the 'Religion and Great Beyond' chapter has gone off for editing now, but if it's not already in, is there any chance that those editing it could get in a sentence or two or sidebar on how Golarion deities interact (or rather do not) with the world?
The current Campaign Setting doesn't really say much about the situation of divine intervention (or otherwise), and I feel that the fact that the deities aren't really very 'hands on', sending a herald at the most (or possibly in extremis Achaekek to directly look after interests of the gods(?)) is worth making clear.
I don't think I've posted on this subject on this thread before, or not according to a quick 'keywords' search. :-?
If you're still a holiday short for the Calendar section, what about some sort of 'empire day' for Cheliax? (In the real world the British empire used to celebrate one.) Granted this might be too regional to merit a mention though, and/or there are the space constrictions, with everything locked in now.
<Wish I had posted about this six months ago...>
;)
Charles Evans 25 wrote: I know that the 'Religion and Great Beyond' chapter has gone off for editing now, but if it's not already in, is there any chance that those editing it could get in a sentence or two or sidebar on how Golarion deities interact (or rather do not) with the world?
The current Campaign Setting doesn't really say much about the situation of divine intervention (or otherwise), and I feel that the fact that the deities aren't really very 'hands on', sending a herald at the most (or possibly in extremis Achaekek to directly look after interests of the gods(?)) is worth making clear.
I don't think I've posted on this subject on this thread before, or not according to a quick 'keywords' search. :-?
That's already in the book. Each deity has a sentence or two about how they show their favor or disfavor.
Golarion deities almost NEVER manifest physically or step in to provide hands-on intervention in Golarion. If you want their herald to help, use a greater planar ally spell.
When the deities DO directly meddle in mortal affairs in print it'll be in the context of an adventure or something like that.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Except that one time in Seven Days to the Grave, that is. :-)
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