Ideas to make paladins more unique

[iamtheDMgetovait]

To start with I will admit that paladins as a class annoy me and I do have an instant dislike of them, I guess its my nature.
But for the game I have decided to run (initially as 4th ed till I read it and found out how much it sucked, so we decided to try out pathfinder) I created a whole new world from scratch. Lot of this world is still under construction but for paladins we have had a few interesting conversations which could as far as I'm concerned take them to a new level.

For starters I don't like that palidins are ment to be lawful good. As far as I'm concerned this makes paladins more or less the same. They should have a set of goals codes something that defines them and their personality and alignment be it lawful good, chaotic evil or any other. One way of doing this was to tie paladins in to domains in one way or another. (Similar to the champions from arcana unearthed) this could lead to one person playing a paladin that was chaotic neutral and a beacon of destruction. While another could be the lawful good paladin of protection.
the choice of domain could lead to many different abilities and varieties of paladin like what you did with the sorceror. To top it off you would not even need to tie the paladin in with any god, but if they chose to worship they could quickly find themselves a god that shared smilar tenents to themselves.

The other idea was to completly take paladins away for the gods and tie them and their powerd into the different planes. For example a lawful evil paladin would draw power from the nine hells and a chaotic evil paladin would draw power from the abyss. These two paladins would have a similar set of morals but a completly differwnt way of approaching it and much like their devil and demon allies they would probably find themselves at conflict and may even be part of the blood war. This would be similar for lawful good, and chaotic good paladins and each group would have access to different abilities and powers. We also talked about keeping the restriction to those four alignments as they are the four extremes and much like within the plaines the cretures from these alignments are more active within the minds of the populace as they are the creatures and beings you hear about, while the creatures and beings from the other alignment keep a low profile and prefer to get the job done away from the lime light. This could help the DM make some very interesting paladins that players don't get to play and may be hard for the pary to understand.

Sorry that it is so long but I felt that as someone who dislike paladins, the discusions we had one the two aformentioned ideas had me keen to play a paladin in one of these forms. Cheers for reading and if you like the idea let me know

[Ash_Gazn]

Green Ronin published The Book of the Righteous, and the Holy Warrior's Handbook. These took the Paladin class, de-constructed it into a generic class, and gave Holy Warrior Domains that determine the powers one receives as they advance in levels, so one can be a "paladin" of a Chaotic Neutral deity, or of no deity at all.

It really is awesome work, and the Holy Warrior Handbook was updated for 3.5 (Book of the Righteous was only published for 3.0, but I enjoy it and use it in My campaign)

I'm not much interested in playing a Lawful Good, traditional paladin, but the concept of a Holy Warrior is a good one that I can get behind for the characters I like.

~DW

[Quentyn]

Well, you can pick up Eclipse: The Codex Persona for free at RPGNow ( http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=51255 ) - and it deconstructs everything into a point-buy system. Covers 3.0, 3.5, Modern, Future, Superheroes, Divine Ascension, a bunch of new magic systems, and a pile of other stuff. If you want a really unique chracter that should do it.

I think that - given Pathfinders boosts to the core classes - upgrading to Pathfinder standards would require an extra two or three points per level though.

[Chobbly]

There is another way, I suppose, but looking backwards.

The old Complete Paladin's Handbook (for 2nd edition) had a load of additional kits for paladin types - the Wyrmslayer, hunter of evil dragons. Or the Votary, suspicious of all other religions. Or a Squire, a paladin who never 'makes it'. The traditional Equerry/chevalier, the knight on horseback. Or maybe the Divine, closer to clerics than any other paladin. Yes, I do have a copy of the AD&D Complete Paladin's Handbook on my desk.

I know it's probably too late for major changes, but any of these could be dropped in at the paladin's 5th level, as Divine Bond options. Just as ideas:

Weapon of the Faith (similar to Votary kit) - Smite attempts also work against clerics and paladins of other faiths?
Dragonhunter (similar to Wyrmslayer kit) - applies 1/2 his level as additional damage in melee attacks against evil dragons?
Devout (similar to Divine kit) - Gains one of the Cleric domains relevant to his/her deity?

Chobbly

[The Authority]

There's absolutely no reason to differentiate the paladin further. He's already exactly what he should be, the Fighter Cleric. Exactly like Ranger, the Fighter Druid, Paladin has a smattering of unique abilities, plus the general abilities of Fighter+Cleric.

So in other words, if you're unsatisfied with the Paladin as it's been for the last 25 years, you're welcome to go play World of Warcraft.

[iamtheDMgetovait]

the reason for the two ideas I mentioned was to take paladins away from their traditional build and either for the first idea tie them close to any god depending on what domain they chose. This would also allow you to work out the kinds of ethics they would have and abilities their god could grant. I could let you play the equivilent of a blackguard from first level, a build that is the traditional paladin or even something like a elemental paladin of fire. Each would have a domain they chose and each domain would grant differing powers for example the fire paladin could cause a level equivilent burninghands instead of lay on hands. A paladin of death may have setect life or something like it instead of detect evil.

The second build was to take paladins away from the gods entirely and have them as warriors that follow a strick set of codes which mirror the differing aspects of the planes.

we felt this would make them more versitile in the long run then a lot of the stuff that has been previously released. It woild also open up morw prestige classes for each paladin as well as differing prestige clases for each differing type of paladin.
In our discussions I was more a favour of the domain build as I feel it has a much greater selection of varients but I will try to get a read of the other book and see if they help.

[Bray - Shan]

I find an interesting concept is in creating the Paladin as a form of prestige class, instead of a core class altogether.

However, this concept can still have the Paladin tradition starting out as Lawful Good in alignment, but the classes traits being passed down to other PC/NPC characters from those fallen from the Lawful Good tenets. Like the original Blackguard but encompassing all moral directions...

[Ken Marable]

The Authority wrote:

There's absolutely no reason to differentiate the paladin further. He's already exactly what he should be, the Fighter Cleric. Exactly like Ranger, the Fighter Druid, Paladin has a smattering of unique abilities, plus the general abilities of Fighter+Cleric.

So in other words, if you're unsatisfied with the Paladin as it's been for the last 25 years, you're welcome to go play World of Warcraft.

Welcome to the boards and to Pathfinder, iamtheDMgetovait! We're glad you're here and that we can make you feel so welcome!(end snark)

But, to actually give a useful reply, as stated by Chobbly, the old kits are great for inspiration. But if you are still looking to branch them away from just lawful good, a couple good sources might be:

Unearthed Arcana has paladin variants for each of the 4 non-Neutral alignments.

Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved has the Champion class which is devoted to a "cause" which maps well to your idea of tying them to domains. (Hey, Paizo, you really should carry Malhavoc PDFs here, too!)

Although, if the campaign has some other planar action going on, tying them to particular planes either thematically or even actual mechanics might be a lot of fun. But then again, I'm a huge Planescape fan and a sucker for all things planar.

[iamtheDMgetovait]

Cheers ken the champion from arcana unearthed is what gave me the idea to tie paladins to a domain and cause to start with.

Hopefully in the next week or two I will have had a chance to try creating the idea for my world which I figure will also help coming up with knightly orders as well

To the authority if I wished to play WOW which I don't I may as well bee a fool and play 4th ed which as anyone one these boards realizes is a piece of c#%p

[JBSchroeds]

The Authority wrote:

There's absolutely no reason to differentiate the paladin further. He's already exactly what he should be, the Fighter Cleric. Exactly like Ranger, the Fighter Druid, Paladin has a smattering of unique abilities, plus the general abilities of Fighter+Cleric.

So in other words, if you're unsatisfied with the Paladin as it's been for the last 25 years, you're welcome to go play World of Warcraft.

I'm sorry, I can't help but reply. I've seen what you have to say in many threads, and its almost never worth reading because it follows the formula: you are obviously wrong + I'm obviously better than you because I'm telling you you are wrong + go play WoW.

I just want to know, are all clerics in every game you play of a LG alignment? The first suggestion the TS made was to try and pull paladins away from the LG only designation. If a Paladin, by your own admition, is the "Fighter Cleric," then shouldn't he be more than just a LG class? That is one of the things (dare I mention it) that I really liked about 4E.

[grotius]

I wonder if the problem is that Paladins don't really belong in the core classes. Paladins are very flavourful and have a specific role, very good for a PrC. A non-lawful good Paladin wouldn't really be a Paladin. It sounds more like alternative (Un-) Holy Warriors are being proposed. Maybe??

[Caladors]

I think, just an idea, that paladins should be the anti druids, ie never nuteral.
I mean they are fantics by nature and is devotion to a cause strickly limited to one ideal?
taking a look at the world today, I would say no.
I think blackguard is a good idea but why do they always have to fall?
I mean surely the bad guys look at that and go hey thats not a bad idea why don't we train people like that?
I see no reason for paladins to be purely lawful good.

[Melayl]

iamtheDMgetovait wrote:

To start with I will admit that paladins as a class annoy me and I do have an instant dislike of them, I guess its my nature.

But for the game I have decided to run (initially as 4th ed till I read it and found out how much it sucked, so we decided to try out pathfinder) I created a whole new world from scratch. Lot of this world is still under construction but for paladins we have had a few interesting conversations which could as far as I'm concerned take them to a new level.

For starters I don't like that palidins are ment to be lawful good. As far as I'm concerned this makes paladins more or less the same. They should have a set of goals codes something that defines them and their personality and alignment be it lawful good, chaotic evil or any other. One way of doing this was to tie paladins in to domains in one way or another. (Similar to the champions from arcana unearthed) this could lead to one person playing a paladin that was chaotic neutral and a beacon of destruction. While another could be the lawful good paladin of protection.
the choice of domain could lead to many different abilities and varieties of paladin like what you did with the sorceror. To top it off you would not even need to tie the paladin in with any god, but if they chose to worship they could quickly find themselves a god that shared smilar tenents to themselves.

The other idea was to completly take paladins away for the gods and tie them and their powerd into the different planes. For example a lawful evil paladin would draw power from the nine hells and a chaotic evil paladin would draw power from the abyss. These two paladins would have a similar set of morals but a completly differwnt way of approaching it and much like their devil and demon allies they would probably find themselves at conflict and may even be part of the blood war. This would be similar for lawful good, and chaotic good paladins and each group would have access to different abilities and powers. We also talked about keeping the restriction to those...

I agree. I like the option for more variety as well. I'm working on a different way to build them, similar to your Domains idea, in the new world I'm working on. Unfortunately, it may take me months or years to nail down...

[Kevin Mack]

JBSchroeds wrote:

I'm sorry, I can't help but reply. I've seen what you have to say in many threads, and its almost never worth reading because it follows the formula: you are obviously wrong + I'm obviously better than you because I'm telling you you are wrong + go play WoW.

Just ignore him thats what I do these days

[Renfield286]

i have a similar annoyance at paladins,
and ok theres paladins and anti-paladins (both lawful, but equally dull)
however, in Dragon magazine number 310 (available here: http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2003/310) it gives full rules for Holy warriors of other alignments (they shouldn't be referred to as paladins though, because the word paladin is very restrictive, it sets a tone of "paragon for all things good and virtuous" and that can only really apply to the lawful good ones)

take a look though the PDF only works out at about £2 ish, and is really quite an intresting read

-=R286=-

[ESSEL]

Renfield286 wrote:

i have a similar annoyance at paladins,

and ok theres paladins and anti-paladins (both lawful, but equally dull)
however, in Dragon magazine number 310 (available here: http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2003/310) it gives full rules for Holy warriors of other alignments (they shouldn't be referred to as paladins though, because the word paladin is very restrictive, it sets a tone of "paragon for all things good and virtuous" and that can only really apply to the lawful good ones)

take a look though the PDF only works out at about £2 ish, and is really quite an intresting read

-=R286=-

What should be a Paladin (or Holy Warrior) in Pathfinder? I see no obvious answer to this question...

A Paladin is definetely a warrior obeying a strict Code of Conduct. What if this Code conflicts with his faction general objectives, or conflicts with a specific 'secret mission'?

IMHO, a Paladin is a difficult class to play in Golarion....

[hopeless]

I have a question regarding this, during a time when I was seriously considering this problem involving Kingdoms of Kalamar i had decided that every deity had paladins of their own so the Paladin of the rotlord could lay on hands but any healing came with a price being namely infecting the recipient with an illness.

My question is would differentiating a paladin from each deity they serve (or not as the case may be) what abilities would they have to show that difference?

[ntin]

I am confused on the premise of changing of a non lawful good Paladin. Paladins are lawful good not because someone in 2nd edition thought it would be fun rather a Paladin makes the self sacrifice to defend those who cannot defend themselves. In a fantasy setting that is a radical paradigm shift when the life of a farmer is still seen to be less than a head of cattle. No other alignment can produce a Paladin due to the lawful good keeps them morally and ethically upright compared to even a chaotic good character who is an individualist rather than someone concerned with a community. In the end it does not make sense for a chaotic evil paladin because chaotic evil has no need for champions or defenders they are introverts driven by their id.

My first character was a Paladin in 3.5 I am rather happy with the changes done to them in Pathfinder. Spells are based off charisma rather than wisdom and they get more abilities to fill in the empty levels. If I wanted domain spells I would make a Clerics there is enough 3.5 material that you can actually turn a Cleric into a Paladin if I remember right Complete Champion allowed a Cleric to convert turn undead into smites and there is a prestige class that grants a Paladin mount.