A T wrote:
Warblade 1/Swordsage 4/Bloodstorm Blade 10/Master Thrower 5
God @#$%ing @#$%.
@#$%. This is the Pathfinder RPG board. Why not keep this @#$%ing garbage on a wotc board?
Power attack is fine in it's new incarnation by the way. "If I can't do the MAX damage with power attack I'm getting SCREWED OVER and it's NOT USABLE." Here, let me wipe your tears.
The monsters getting killed in D&D?
Must mean something's broken! I'll find out what it is, I SWEAR TO YOU ON MY LIFE.
Jal Dorak wrote:
That's a pretty big gamble for a character to rely on to live.
Dragons don't use equipment silly, they run the hell out of their cave when they see adventurers because a dragon "would have to have 1 intelligence to fight someone in melee."
I can't believe you'd even suggest an intelligent creature prepare itself for fights and then fight.
New Ninja wrote:
No self respecting dragon in HISTORY, (knowing FULL WELL their challenge rating and being able to identify the challenge rating of would be opponents ON SIGHT of course) has EVER attempted to kill and eat an Adventurer. NEVER. THAT'S ABSOLUTELY FEEBLEMINDED. Despite it's home court advantage, despite it's preparation, any dragon with higher than 1 intelligence plane shifts via scroll the INSTANT a person walks through the door of his lair.
Well done sir. When you get done pulling the straw out of that burning man scale scarecrow you've built us, I'd be happy to talk to you a bit more about dungeons and dragons.
Old Ninja wrote:
When people disagree with me, or dare question the rampantly inaccurate gleemax presiding opinion drek I shovel all over the internet, I start rattling off forum buzzwords as an ink cloud. You're a trolling troller troll and you probably love 4chan don't you. Whisper gnome PROVES how broken PFRPG wizard is!
You bore me. Besides your decidedly abusive gaming practices that you attempt to cite as examples (The saddest part being that you've not even set them down between here and picking them up elsewhere on the internet) you'd much rather gargle the opinionated leavings of the WoTC pit crew than discuss the real point here, which is how the PFRPG casters compare to the PFRPG melee squad. You've clearly never used any PFRPG class, and cite garbage from 3.5 splatbooks as pathfinder playtest experience on the pathfinder playtest board.
I know for a fact that PFRPG fighter and wizard can and do compete in actual play. I've seen it happen for weeks on end. Since you're not actually playtesting Pathfinder, I have no further need to discuss it with you and I suggest that you close your eyes and lay down in combat because you and every IRC DM you've ever played with agree that laying down in front of someONE that is clearly going to kill you is not the same as laying down in front of someTHING that's clearly going to kill you such as say.. lava.
Crusader of Logic wrote:
I don't think we've even directly talked to each other.
Not to haul the bones out of s#+@ninja's closet again, but he's a real post to agree with himself typa guy. I'm sure that you not being affiliated with him in any way can see where people might associate two smarmy-gleemax-"strawman"-overusing-logic-in-the-name-posting-at-the-same-t ime-at-the-same-rate-with-the-same-verbosity d-bags with each other.
I made a 3.5+splatbooks "wizard" exactly as suggested as the "best build" from the character optimization boards with ludicrous stats and that proves that pathfinder rpg's wizard is super broken. But can YOU prove that fighter is worth playing because people on the forum I got my "wizard" from say it's NOT and they, not you are The Authority!
In our weekly PFRPG game, the Fighter 12 and the Barbarian 12 ripped people in half like they were tearing into tuna salad with a chainsaw. Like usual. The Barbarian single handedly splattered an adult green dragon without being able to critically hit it. And he didn't even have to blatantly @#$%ing misuse suggestion to make a creature you were already fighting allow itself to be killed. I've clearly been trolled, because I violated my refusal to justify your mediocre cheating at dungeons and dragons makes me The Authority knobbery by posting examples. Well done sir, you got me. Then I fell through the railing into the horse trough.
My proposed solution is to allow characters to make money by spellcasting (if they really want to)
Exactly what I've done. I simply took the price of getting spells cast from the "goods and services" section of the PHB and allow my players to sell a certain number (randomly determined) of their spells based on the situation (location, time, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc)
The gold generated by this technique shocked me at first, but then I realized that the reason why you see 12th level Wizard shopkeepers is because they realized that they could sell protection from energy (fire) and a teleport to adventurers for a decent amount of gold without really getting themselves into harms way.
You notice that doctors are able to sell their services for a lot of money? Well if you were a 12th level doctor who was finding treasure in a trap and monster infested dungeon, you might well consider packing it up and healing for a living as well. That is, if you somehow lost your backpack and bedroll somewhere.
Crusader of Logic wrote:
the former is useless
This statement really, really makes me wonder if you've actually played a PFRPG fighter or barbarian. The melee classes are not, and have never been useless, and are doubly not so using the PFRPG rules. After the beta came out, there were a lot of cries of "ITS THE SAME!!!!" from people who haven't actually sat down and made a "boring fighter" (as they're so fond of saying) and seen the numbers add up or tried playing one and experiencing the actual stereotypical "adventure" situations that make them so absolutely necessary.
I've seen it in action many times, and I'm pleased with how paizo has worked up the melee classes. Fighter can and does truly become the "master of fighting" in PFRPG and it's great fun to watch. Fighter gets to the point where it's a pleasure to take a nice weapon from an enemy and use it a little bit, instead of selling everything that isn't his s+&@ty favored weapon, and gets the chance to really be prepared for situational happenstance without feeling like he "wasted" any of his feats.
Of course, if this thread were about how Ranger could use a little love ala Barbarian, I'd be singing a little bit of a different tune. But Fighter.. He's the master of fighting and PFRPG has definitely nailed that down for him.
Disarmed: No problem
"I'm here with half HP, my backpack, my bedroll and an improvised weapon made out of an oversized switch that I used to lower a door, then tore from the floor. I'm the PFRPG fighter, and when I get back to town, I'll buy you a @#$%ing drink."
My PFRPG campaign has had little/no problem with SoD's. In my experience, a player character feels the need to complain when his character is killed not because of what killed him, but because he's feeling down that his guy just died.
If you reduce the power of all spells and spell like abilities to the point where nobody dies in one spell (or two, or three, where to draw the line, really, not to mention that any first level player character can stab a peasant to death in one hit and you don't see the peasants complaining about broken adventurers or g!@!&~n unbalanced longswords) then on top of that insist in adding meta game "buy yourself out of this situation" hero points, you're definitely, absolutely going to end up with players still complaining because the troll barbarian killed their barbarian in a sword fight. It's not the spells, it's the lack of ability for your average person in our culture to effectively deal with loss.
Rob Godfrey wrote:
The point being,
The point indeed being that while the buzzword "strawman" still rings in the air, you've got people claiming that the wizard class is overpowered, and citing examples that consist of "the best possible wizard build with a non-core race, far, far above average stats and access to all the splatbooks" and "monsters with low will saves running towards us down a bowling alley with no chance to come up behind us".
The point of this board is to discuss the pfrpg base classes as played. If I were to set my adventures like an instanced dungeon and go send someone to pull monsters that happened to have low hit points but did nothing to mitigate that disadvantage and mindlessly rushed into my cleave every round, I might come off thinking that my melee character was "broken" no matter how well or poorly it was built.
It's really easy to have an opinion and then write off other people as "trolls" when they point out that the situation you've brought up isn't typical and that similar advantages taken by the enemies might totally change the situation.
That isn't to say that I haven't enjoyed making light of your whining. I'm just taking the time to mention that the "broken wizard" argument is a favorite of people who apply the wizard mechanics to a flat, lifeless board game land and complain that the other classes don't function as well as their example when faced with actual odds.
Crusader of Logic wrote:
Welcome to the football team, buddy! (you're the ball)
So now that we've noticed that Wizards have more spells known than Sorcerer, how about we start pointing out other really well thought out crumbs of "logic" such as "Consolidate your posts to avoid s~%!ting up the board with thirty seven "off the top of my head" comments in every thread" and "Common knowledge (such as how the base classes differ from each other) is commonly known by everyone. No need to post about it."
Now I'd suggest you grab me and try to run for the first down, but there's a sorcerer out there and he doesn't have as many spells known as wizard, and that's terrible.
Rob Godfrey wrote:
I think the issue is, the way the game is setup spells and SLA are nearly always going to be better than feats, unless the feats themselves basically are SLA's.
Thanks for that tidbit. Really well thought out and definitely necessary to post. When you're done comparing feats to spells, lets compare arrows to cows and platinum to zombies.
Welcome to the design team, buddy!
Crusader of Logic wrote:
Wizards do not 'have to' buy spells to add to their spellbooks. Even with just the two free spells a level, they will have more spells known than a sorcerer at every single level of the game.
You took the time to point out that Wizard knows more spells than sorcerer in one of your thirteen posts over the last hour.
I rest my case.
My DM likes to have groups of low will save monsters run towards the party from the front, and my party likes to let me rest between every encounter to regain my spells. I AM THE MVP OF THE PARTY.
I applaud your reasoning. Now that I can see what passes for a campaign over your way, I completely understand how you feel overpowered compared to the melee classes. I mean, they charge directly down a hallway every single encounter and engage the monsters, while you stand in the back and use the gleemax favorite 3.5 diviner build (notice that you're playing 3.5 , not PFRPG in all of your really great examples) to shoot at monsters with +6 will saves from the back of the football field.
You're OWNING! I'm sure all the party members really appreciate your help too, running a character with superhuman stats, the "approved" minmax build and a completely sheltered casting position, then taking the time to stop, jump on the pathfinder RPG betatest forums and start b~&@@ing about how powerful your 3.5 gleemax character is while the party rests for eight hours to allow you to be prepared for the next encounter with humanoids who serve simply to crash against the "tanks" so you can play "controller".
That sounds kinda familiar actually. Like a board game I've read about recently. I hope you're having fun and I very much wish you the best.
Well kids? What have we learned. "When one jerk minmaxes a character and his buddy the DM sets up encounters that never upset the S.O.P. of the party dynamic, he'll probably be really effective."
I feel enlightened, s@%~ninja, I really do. Thanks for the information.
Jal Dorak wrote:
I'm a smart man who has played D&D.
I agree, you are a smart man, and you have definitely played D&D before in a campaign. If only the majority of the posters here were as experienced as you.
In town? Who the hell is dumb enough to try and pickpocket a bunch of heavily armed adventurers in town?
"YOU CAN'T STEAL FROM PEOPLE IN OGRIMARR IT'S NOT A PVP ZONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Almighty Zordon, Lord of the Command Center! Besides the fact that pickpocketing is traditionally nearly completely restricted to crowded urban areas, you clearly have no idea how the slight of hand rules work.
The rate at which you s#+% up every board you visit simply to spitshine whatever someone else has told you and you haven't ever playtested or even bothered to verify astounds me.
Make a PFRPG rogue and learn to play her. While you're doing that, take a long, hard look at your motivation for posting here. If you're not going to bother to know what you're talking about before you start typing, perhaps you'd be better off spending the time playing D&D.
You can't prove that swashbuckler can cast spells, so book of nine swords is really balanced.
Well done. Like I said earlier, there's a reason you've got that nickname, and it's because you join boards and get angrier and angrier while you post the same thing over and over again, insisting that unless someone can dispute your class mechanic comparisons that have been poured over on gleemax until everyone is well satisfied that they can quote them while they wax their mustaches that no situational issue has any bearing.
After you've actually played a pathfinder fighter, barbarian or ranger (ranger being the least powerful of the new core classes) in a campaign, please come back and post your EXPERIENCE. Until then, let the people who are PLAYTESTING the product talk.
Just curious if anyone else is already creating new additions specifically for the Pathfinder flavor?
I knocked up a few custom races and doused them with a liberal helping of Golarion sauce.
Please comment if you so desire.
If you can't use class mechanics to prove that the swashbuckler is able to do as many things as the cleric or wizard, then I WIN AND TOME OF BATTLE WAS JUSTIFIED.
I've said twice now that if you assume the wizard has fly, charm person invisiblity, detect thoughts, major creation, wish, planar binding, peewee's playhouse and all the other spells all memorized, and he's actually able to apply them to the situation, he's probably got it covered. However, the sheer number of times in actual play that the wizard doesn't have a g%%@%*n thing he needs and stands there going "s+%$, man" is outstandingly huge. It happens all the time. It's been like that the entire time. And the one time the wizard actually has charm monster when the 3 will save kobold fighter chief comes around, or the one time the wizard rolls max damage on fireball and everyone blows their reflex save, someone goes "JESUS CHRIST MAN, THAT WAS IMPRESSIVE." And for every time that happens, there's at least another time when one of the melee classes rends someone in twain, and the other players go, "Well that wasn't as good as a psion. Sure wish we had a warblade and then you wouldn't be affected by diseases. Sure wish you were a warlock, because warlocks get infinite ranged touch attacks for more damage than sneak attack and damage reduction. Sure wish you were another class, because I enjoy discounting what you, the lowly barbarian have achieved, and when you do well, I refuse to acknowledge it. I am The Authority."
And to that I say humbug sir. Humbug. I refuse to recount the ages of playtime that I've enjoyed where the fighter or barbarian or god help him the ranger have bloodily dragged the party to victory, by any means necessary, while the caster's corpses sat in the bag of holding because it was undead this time and s@&~ man, they're immune to whatever. Or any other situation, such as the time the fighter had an argument online about how warblade is really balanced because he's got seven god forsaken intelligence and doesn't realize that magic invincible fighter simply isn't a good way to deal with your Major Creation penis envy.
Let me know how your next game of dungeons and dragons treats you. The next time you've got a dungeon master, a storyline, a party and a situation that isn't "Lets set up nickelodeon GUTS on our crappy little DND minis tactical board here and prove that wizard with jump and fly can jump and fly well".
I can only assume that you're feeling pretty guilty about playing D&D like it's a fan fiction and lash out defensively whenever someone suggests that someone out there is a psionic monk spiked chain drow paladin.
You might feel attacked, but I need to point out that if you'd read my post without feeling like someone was commenting on your behavior in your psychologist's waiting room you might take a different perspective.
Doing a LA0 Tiny race was tough, especially when I wanted to add an extra limb for that chaotic touch. Let me know what you think!
Abavath - The Soft-shelled People
The Abavath are a peculiar race, spawning from the tainted and Abyss laced waters of the Worldwound and slowly becoming more common in areas outside the demonic infestation, usually accompanying some fell creature. A typical Abavath stands about 20 inches tall and weighs about 40 pounds, most of this weight being a thick rubbery grey flesh that surrounds the Abavath like a shell, though it offers no real protection against attack. The Abavath have tiny, crustacean-like eyes set directly into it’s face, and a flat face lacking any major protrusions. It has gill-like slits that covers most of it’s throat and neck area and it’s mouth contains a ring of sharp, jagged teeth. The most terrifying thing to most about an Abavath is it’s three long, triple segmented arms, reaching far more widely than it is easy to anticipate and set at disturbingly varying angles. Abavath speech is characterized by a slurping, spitting sound and is very unpleasant for most races to listen to, though their words often hold sinister and clever meaning. The Abavath are mortal, but may in some way be related to the Abyssal creatures they so often intermingle with, and often share their psychotic viewpoint, though not prone to cause the wonton destruction demons crave. Abavath are most often Neutral Evil, seeking power from whatever forces with help them advance, though intelligent enough to realize that cooperation with less “efficient” creatures can have it’s benefits.
Abavath racial traits:
+2 Dex, +2 Int, -4 str – The Abavath’s size greatly affects their strength, and would be quite clumsy if they were any larger. However they are definitely intelligent and often engage in the arcane arts, though some with blood tainted from interbreeding with creatures from the Abyss forgo formal training and become Abyssal bloodline Sorcerers.
Tiny sized: A tiny creature receives a +2 size bonus to armor class and attack rolls and a +8 size bonus to all Stealth checks. They must use Tiny sized weapons and equipment and can lift and carry only half as much as Medium characters. Despite being Tiny, the long limbs and wide base of the Abavath cause them to occupy a five foot space and threaten the areas around them and do not need to enter another’s space to make a melee attack.
Very slow: Abavath base speed is 10 feet.
Aquatic: The Abavath can breathe water as if it were air, can act and move in water as if on land and enjoys being submerged. However, if an Abavath is not submerged in water to sleep, it becomes fatigued as if it had slept in armor and cannot heal or recover naturally.
Underwater Blindsight: The Abavath can sense creatures in the water around it within 30’ as if it had blindsight, however an Abavath receives a -5 to perception checks relating to creatures not in the same body of water the Abavath is in (or when the Abavath is not in water).
Demonology: The Abavath gain +2 to Diplomacy and Knowledge (The Plains) checks that deal with chaotic evil outsiders. In addition chaotic evil outsiders receive a -2 penalty to the DC to break free of a Planar Binding spell or similar effect.
Three Arms: The Abavath have three arms fully functional arms and hands in addition to their many stubby legs. This gives them one more free hand to use for spellcasting, or wielding or holding items and equipment. This also makes them eligible for the Multiweapon Fighting feat (MM1) if they meet the prerequisites. Without this feat, a creature attempting to attack with a weapon in each of it’s three hands suffers a -6 penalty on their primary hand and -10 on attacks with it’s other two hands. An Abavath who gains natural attacks for it’s arms by some means (Through magic, or from a bloodline ability or template) gains three natural weapons instead of two.
Languages: Abavath begin speaking Abavath and Common. A Abavath with high intelligence may select Draconic, Abyssal, Infernal and Elemental as bonus languages.
Favored Class: The Abavath’s favored class is Wizard or Sorcerer. This choice must be made at 1st level and cannot be changed.
Iaguni - Children of the Gods
The Iaguni have the interesting position of being birthed directly by their gods, but being mortal, though odd. Each Iaguni is brother (or sister) to the others, and do not procreate. Instead, each is birthed (or created, none can be sure) directly by their gods, who then ignore them. The Iaguni are not truly male or female, but may during their lives choose their outward appearance through an interesting metamorphosis is process that involves six months of comatose sleep. Iaguni do not consider themselves adults before this process, and thus conceal themselves in the remote home of their gods (who still stridently ignore them, strolling through the icy landscape so large as to perhaps be completely unaware of their "children"). None have knowingly witnessed a underage Iaguni, but due to their interesting death situation, there are definite theories.
Iaguni racial traits:
+2 str, +2 cha, -4 dex - The Iaguni are stronger than standard humans due to their size and they have great force of personality, but are clumsier than smaller creatures.
Large size: The Iaguni are large sized and suffer a -1 size penalty to attack rolls and armor class and a -4 size penalty to stealth checks. A large creature can used large equipment without penalty and has higher carrying limits than Medium creatures.
Endure Cold: The Iaguni are able to withstand cold environments without penalty, but take normal damage from cold energy.
Artistic Craftsmen: The Iaguni may choose either craft weaponmaking or craft armorsmithing to always treat as a class skill. Any item crafted by a Iaguni well sell for 25% more than it’s usual price due to the intricate detail that Iaguni put into their work. (Note that this applies to the mundane value of an item only. Any price increase due to an item being magical or masterwork is not increased.
Natural Swimmers: The Iaguni may take always take 10 on a swim check and do not double the armor check penalty for swimming in armor.
Inhuman: The Iaguni feel a much closer connection to the gods that ignore them than any other mortal race. Because of this, they have a difficult time socializing with non Iaguni and receive a -6 racial penalty to Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate and Sense Motive when dealing with humanoids. Iaguni do not suffer this penalty when dealing with non-humanoids or other Iaguni. In addition, Iaguni can never treat bluff as a class skill, the Iaguni simply do not understand lies and lying. A Iaguni who loses bluff from their class list may replace it with a Craft skill. Iaguni tend to work harder and lose themselves in their projects when unsure of themselves.
Living Afterlife: The Iaguni change into another creature entirely when they are killed. This creature appears to be mindless: It cannot be communicated with or compelled in any fashion and ooze puppet has no effect on a "dead" Iaguni. Because the Iaguni is not dead, only a Miracle, Limited Wish or Wish can return the Iaguni to it's previous form and restore it's previous personality. Thankfully, the "dead" Iaguni doesn't need to be present when the spell is cast, one need only phrase the request on wish, limited wish or miracle properly in Iaguni (linguistics DC22). It is currently unknown why exactly this functions the way it does.
Languages: The Iaguni begin speaking Iaguni and Common and may select: Elemental, Giant, Orc or Dwarven as bonus languages.
Favored Class: The Iaguni favor the Bard or Paladin class. This choice must be made at 1st level and cannot be changed.
I have read the rules, but have not used them in a campaign, and don't understand how they apply to a living situation. However, I am able to read the spell lists and notice that if a spell caster were to prepare and use the exact correct spells for a situation every single time, they would be able to potentially save the party if they didn't get hit more than perhaps once.
I noticed you noticing. To everyone out there who's insistent that holy hell, caster is the only way to go, caster is SO broken, caster caster caster, play a campaign. See the way it goes. "But we have! We did! In our campaign, the caster often cast FIREBALL and or CURE SERIOUS WOUNDS and it was HORRIFYINGLY POWERFUL. ONE TIME THE CASTER FLEW SOMEWHERE AND A MONSTER WASN'T ABLE TO HIT HIM, THEN THE DM CONGRATULATED US FOR WINNING DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS AND WE ALL HAD YOOHOOS."
Situational. Everything is situational. If the casters are in a favorable position, they may well manage to carry off a "ranged victory" just like a few archers might be able to carry off the same type of keep them at bay situation. But next time it isn't your turn, and your nancy "I had to play the best character or I would refuse to play" drow psionic warlock monk with vow of poverty "the invincible" is sharpening his spiked chain or something and it's the fighter's turn, take a look. Pay attention to him and see that just because he isn't levitating and making dc37 bluff checks while firing infinite ranged touch attacks he still retains a logical and essential party function. Or ignore it because it isn't your character and come online to complain.
I told you why, for example...
Actually, you simply listed your personal griefs against the way those base classes work mechanically without taking into account that they have the potential to come in handy in completely different ways than the base classes.
I have absolutely no need to "prove" that tome of battle was a blatant attempt to one up the other classes, or that warlock is a clear violation of universal game constants (up to that point) simply because it was someone's personally favorite idea. The math is sitting right there for you to view. While you're waving your arms in the air complaining that wizard has the ability to cast invisibility six times a day but warlock ONLY has the ability to make 5d6 ranged touch attacks each and every round you're missing my original point, that you can b*$!% all day about the classes mechanics if you refuse to look at the fact that many of them were designed from a role playing/role players perspective. You far too often seem to confuse what you would and wouldn't play because you're unable to stack the numbers a certain way with what will actually happen in any given game session. Wizard and Cleric certainly have spells that give them situational advantages, but you poo poo the situational advantages of Fighter and Barbarian, saying that unless they can iron heart surge, have the highest hit dice and refresh their "spells per day" constantly they "are unbalanced". This and this alone is why I continually feel your reviews are made "from the bench" so to speak and that you simply haven't experienced playing a high level fighter or barbarian, or perhaps just haven't had situations where the casters didn't prepare sixteen castings of time stop that day, and fighter saved the day again. Situational advantages are the name of D&D. If you sit there complaining that "Well, if the barbarian is on the other side of the field and needs to approach the wizard for four rounds, and the wizard specifically has all his will save spells prepared and manages to get them off THERES NOTHING THE POOR BARBARIAN CAN DO" you're missing every single time the barbarian dives into the lake to fish out his friends and the treasure with his mighty STR and CON, or is the one who fights on despite being blinded and poisoned to crush the evildoers, or simply is the first one into the room and rips into the enemy cleric with a full attack, causing him to need to heal instead of casting miracle sixty five times. Perhaps the wizard, properly prepared, could have potentially known and cast the correct spells to get his friends out of the jam. Perhaps not. But if you don't consider these situations, you won't have an accurate picture of the game as played and will be complaining about the potential outcome of a rule without testing it.
And in response to the future "I HAVE TOO TESTED IT!!" I'd simply say "Sorry man, the barbarian in my game kicks ass. Not sure why you can't make it work."
Edit: This is coming from the point of view of a PFRPG barbarian, by the way. I've heard you complaining about the "needless complexity" of the rage points system and how you "don't see how paizo is adding more options" and yet again, I suggest you actually come play in the mud with us before you chastise us from your ivory tower. The point mechanics are easy, and allow many benefits to the barbarian that he lacked before, including your ever lauded tome of battle-esque situational abilities (without the purely mathmatical one up-manship that the 4.0 beta book of nine swords offered). But of course, you don't have to take my word for it. Just ask anyone else who's used the rules in a campaign.
Point by point response that's wildly incorrect
Thanks for sharing your opinions. Yet again you've gone to great lengths to claim that you have a valid point and failed to produce anything other than your opinion to back it up.
Please, take a minute between cries of "nerf spellcasters" and "tome of battle is really balanced" and go back and actually read or god help you play the game you're talking about.
You're a big fan of complaining about class balance based on a level 20 build. I suggest you take a level five character and run him around Golarion for a few sessions and see what actually happens, not what's possible via crawling through the rulebooks on your stomach weeping about time stop and force cage.
Here's the 3rd LA0 Race I've finished for my campaign. Enjoy!
Dbesk - The Well Rested Folk
The first time a person witnesses a Dbesk, they usually come away with a fairly amiable impression of them. This, and this alone might explain why these extremely lazy creatures have remained unconquered and relatively unmolested thus far through history. Friendly, well mannered and eager to please, the Dbesk seem almost too relaxed and forgiving to most who encounter them. In truth, a Dbesk would really rather sleep all day every day (and doze for the four hours or so it finds itself unable to sleep in any 24 hour day) then do anything else. Unfortunately, do to the natural magnetism of the Dbesk, many humanoids consider Dbesk they truly know little about to be their great friends, and the Dbesk are often far too lazy to argue semantics, simply seeking as much sleep as they can between whatever adventures their companions so excitedly chatter about. Because they are simply too easy going to argue or attempt to do anything but be friendly to others a few slow words at a time, the Dbesk are commonly NG.
A Dbesk stands 5'5"-6'5" on average, and tends to weigh at least 300 pounds. Although they eat and drink very little, the Dbesk are omnivores and can digest nearly any type of food into usable sustenance. Dbesk often seem to go entirely without food and water for weeks, simply sneaking a snack or a drink here and there while everyone assumes them to be asleep. A Dbesk has thick, dark grey hide that is usually mottled with brown or green markings that give them the vague appearance of a sleepy mossy rock. They have small, cool colored eyes that range from light lavender through blue and into a nearly white blue, and seemingly tiny mouths and large, flexible hands and feet, tending to curl them beneath their bulk as they sleep.
Dbesk culture is that of trees among birds, they are ponderous, and their government goes to extremely odd lengths to keep an accurate census of the Dbesk population on record. This is the only thing the Dbesk World Bureaucracy (as it is called) actually achieves, as it often takes upwards of sixteen years for any governmental function to occur besides the yearly world census. Dbesks are often seen being roused from their slumber in the corner of a common room by a Dbesk census officer (Easy to spot because they, unlike every other Dbesk seem to enjoy walking places) only to be asked a couple of questions, given their yearly Dbesk stipend (six silver pieces) and urged to return to their sleep.
+2con, +2cha, -2dex: The Dbesk are sturdy and tend to be rotund in an extremely endearing way. They're quite clumsy however and are always causing slightly comical accidents.
Slow Speed: 20'
Feelin' Lazy: Dbesk get a +2 racial bonus to saves vs compulsion and receive a racial -4 str penalty for the purposes of carry weight and encumbrance.
Attractive Pheromones: The Dbesk get a +4 to all charisma based skill checks made against any humanoid person within 10' of them.
Well Rested: Dbesk get a +2 bonus to saves against sleep effects and can fall asleep instantly as a free action while remaining standing, leaning, etc. A Dbesk suffers no penalties to perception for being asleep, highly trained in the art of cat napping as they are.
Friendly: A humanoid creature always treats a Dbesk as Indifferent or better unless the Dbesk has harmed the creature or it's companions (such as but not limited to forcing them to make a save, attacking them in melee or at range, or being noticed attempting to steal or stealing from them)
Slothful Metabolism: Due to it's extremely slow metabolism, a Dbesk requires 1/16th the amount of food and water a creature it's size normally requires. Dbesk also get a +2 bonus to save vs poison and a -2 penalty to save vs disease.
Natural Camouflage: A Dbesk who isn't wearing clothes receives a +4 to disguise checks when curled up in a natural environment attempting to be a large rock. A sleeping Dbesk without clothes automatically receives a 14 on disguise checks when curled up.
Dbesk armor proficiency: Dbesk are always proficient with Dbesk Quilted armor and consider Dbesk Quilted armor as no armor for the purposes of any class abilities, nor do they suffer arcane spell failure while wearing Dbesk Quilted armor. A Dbesk may always sleep in any light armor without becoming fatigued, though armor must be specifically crafted to suit the rotund bodies of the Dbesk and costs +50%.
Dbesk Quilted (Light Armor)
This padded armor is specifically wrought for the Dbesk, suiting them in every way. from comfort to mobility to warmth granted and quality and durability of fiber, the Dbesk Padded is the ultimate protection for the aspiring Dbesk... slumberer. Dbesk Quilted is simply too loose hanging and odd fitting to provide protection to a non Dbesk. Due to the extremely, utterly lazy nature of Dbesk craftsmen, only between one and four masterwork Dbesk Quilted armors are produced per year and they are only sold (usually for several tens of thousands of gold pieces) to personal friends of the craftsmen. These masterwork pieces of armor are probably the most comfortable garment in the entire world even to non Dbesk, and would most likely go for upwards of fifty thousand gold to a collector of decadent finery. Unfortunately for the common Dbesk, a piece of Dbesk Quilted that hasn't been made by one of the Dbesk master craftsmen just "doesn't feel right" and counts as light armor for the purposes of class features despite the Dbesk special proficiency. It is for this reason the Dbesk Quilted costs so much more than standard padded armor.
Languages: Dbesk begin speaking Dbesk and common (albeit slowly). A Dbesk with high intelligence modifier may learn Halfling, Elf, Gnome and Fey.
Favored Class: A Dbesk's favored class is Sorcerer or Monk. The Dbesk Bureaucratic Census Division produces 100% of the known Dbesk monks and stands out amongst Dbesk society as a whole as the only lawful organization the Dbesk have saw fit to put the effort into.
I've finished up the second of my LA0 races. As usual, feel free to post or PM me with comments or suggestions, and most of all feel free to use these races in your game, or rip off the idea and change them around! Hopefully this one is as fun to read as it was to write, I love me the Vancar.
Vancar - Manticore Erectus
The Vancar are a constant sore reminder to the forces of law that chaotic and evil creatures sometimes gain power far in excess of what should be allowed by Order. Twisting the boundries of time and the veils between one world and the next through arcane and divine means, a dungeon was caused to be seeded with creatures from an alternate future where most of the sentient races have been replaced by a cruely efficient creature called the Vancar.
The Vancar is a highly evolved Manticore, shedding it's wings and tail and growing bipedal, much like the human's ascension from lower creatures. Unlike humans however, the Vancar have a biological peculularity that allows them to breed with nearly any sentient creature, and yet the offspring of those unholy unions will always be pure blooded Vancar, utterly without fail. Because of this, the world of the Vancar is nearly completely devoid of non Vancar
When brought into Golarion by the forces of chaos and evil, the Vancar immediately set about inhabiting the entirety of the ancient, long abandoned dwarven ruin that they were summoned into, subjugating the goblinoid and giant races that had made lairs within and corrupting them, keeping many in disgusting breeding pits and enslaving the rest with a sacrifice driven forced worship of the Vancar. Eventually, sensing the pain and madness the Vancar were bringing upon the
In return, the Mother of Monsters granted the Vancar clerics divine powers, though the Vancar appitiude for divine magic is limited. Most Vancar find themselves following the path of the hunt, infiltrating and attempting to destroy other races from within as is their way. The few that take up arcane studies find solice from their more hot blooded siblings in the path of the Wizard, devoting great amounts of time to the sciences of the arcane arts.
Vancar racial traits:
Medium Size: Vancar are medium sized.
Normal Speed: Vancar have a base speed of 30'
Keen Senses: Vancar receive a +2 racial bonus on smell and taste based perception checks
Vie for Supremacy: Vancar receive a +1 racial bonus to damage on all attacks versus Humans.
Infiltrate and Destroy: Vancar recieve a +2 racial bonus on Disguise checks and a +1 racial bonus to attack flat footed opponents.
Languages: Vancar begin speaking Common and Vancar. Vancar with a high intelligence bonus can choose any of the following languages: Goblin, Giant, Dwarven, Gnome, Abyssal.
Favored Class: The favored class of Vancar is Ranger or Wizard, this choice must be made at 1st level and cannot be changed.
Here is a group of Motugitl NPCs I've created to use in my campaign. Feel free to use them in your campaign as a mid/high level encounter, or to use the idea in any way you'd like!
Eight Yards Commission
Alphonse Joly, Minstrel
Nerpest Barker, Minstrel
Zeb Puno, Minstrel,
Wimda Mibbinock, Doomsayer
What follows is a little flavor text for the Motugitl. Keep in mind that I've removed the immunity to gnome and fey innate supernatural abilities and replaced it with a +4 to save vs those abilities. I believe this helps bring the Motugitl further within the range of the Pathfinder RPG base races.
The Motugitl are race of Gnomes with an extremely sordid history. Once worshipers of the goddess Calistria, these gnomes grew increasingly dishonest and psychotic over the years in her "care", eventually becoming completely chaotic, and more than a little evil, flying from passion to passion and whim to whim sometimes within days or even hours of each other. They began to honor lies and liars as great Storytellers of their people, competing to see who could craft the finest lies, and learning the secrets of herbology to produce a number of terrible chemicals for a myriad of uses, recreational and otherwise. On a date remembered and reviled in their history as the time of Damnation, their highest of priests, out of his mind with intoxication from Feyblue Mushroom dared insult Calistria's form as "Fraught with terrible symmetry". She flew into a blind rage, transforming the Motugitl into a six legged, degenerate form and stripping them of their aptitude for magic and supernatural abilities. She promised them that no right thinking god would listen to the pleas of a degenerate race, and bid them to join the children of Lamashtu, if they dared. The Motugitl galloped from her rage, as one stumbling, hideous mass far from their tunnel homes and into a deep cavern. Finding their new form resistant to heat and comforted by the nurturing feeling of the mountain closing in around them, they descended further and further into the blackness, into poisonous, ancient caverns that even the deep gnomes shunned as unholy, all the way to the fiery pits where the blood of the mountains flows. Ever fearful, even in their chaotic madness, they slowly took up the worship of Groetus, pleased with the fact that he responded in no ways to their prayers and delighting in creating stories of his great powers and lies to "prove" their close connection to him. They spun great tales of their god conquering and destroying the upper races, leaving only a barren shell for the Motugitl to take as their own, basking on the shores of the fire lakes and breathing deep of the toxic fumes of his wrath. Eventually, to their own surprise, the Doomsayers (Motugitl clerics of Groetus) eventually began to receive divine abilities, and were able to spin even finer lies with the powers of a psychotic god behind their efforts. Taking his power as a sign that the time of burning has come to the lands above, the insane, mutant Motugitl have began to move upwards, taking secret ways to the damned surface to spread their great lie... Creating entropic truth in raging fire, unbeknownst to even themselves.
The Motugitl's form is that of a gnome which has sprouted four additional legs, with a bizarre hip and knee arrangement to grant them mobility, though of a disjointed, terrible variety. They retain the standard two arms, and their thick, hardened skin ranges in coloration from black to a ruddy deep red with no highlights in skin or hair. They have naturally sharp, crooked teeth and a mouth that opens disturbingly wide, complete with a thin, elongated and writhing tongue. The Goddess Calistria viewed this form as monstrous and unredeemable, but it has served the Motugitl to keep them alive in their hidden warrens. The Motugitl commonly go without shoes, using their thick skin and tough feet to gain purchase on the unworked terrain of the lava flows.
Censer of Groetus - Motugitl Heavy Flail - Two Handed Martial Weapon: 1d10 19-20x2
Saulargi: Level 7 poison, inhaled; Save Fortitude DC 16 Frequency: 1 round(10), Effect: 1 wis damage, shaken, sickened. Cure: 2 saves.
Motugitl Healing Kit: The Motugitl rely on the flora and fauna of their hidden refuge not just for food, but also medicine. With few clerics of Groetus psychotic enough to actually channel positive energy or heal diseases and poisons despite their god's tendency to completely ignore the plight of their people (though a fully healthy creature is often capable of far greater chaos than a sick or wounded one), they have developed a strange but potent series of anti-toxins and disease fighting unguents that are commonly used by their healers. A Motugitl Healer's kit is a portable example of this practice and provides a +4 circumstance bonus to heal checks. In the hands of a non Motugitl, this strange bundle of twigs, dried mushrooms and powders wrapped in leaves is impossible to use safely without a dc20 Heal check. On a failed check, both the healer and the patient are poisoned with Black Lotus Extract (PFRPG 391)
I've recently been attempting to design a race with zero level adjustment. Both to prove it can be done, and to add a little spice to my weekly game.
Here's what I've done so far, the Motugitl. Six-legged mutant gnomes, cursed by Calistria and now frightfully worshiping Groteus from "Deep caverns where the blood of mountains flows".
Speed 20', Runs at x5 (x6 with the run feat). Is not hindered by difficult terrain. Has double the unpenalized overland speed of a human.
Sees normally in darkness/magical darkness.
Always treats Bluff and Sense motive as class skills.
Resist fire 10, immune to inhaled poisons.
+2 to saves vs fear and other mind effects.
Stability: +4 dc to overrun, trip or bull rush.
Immune to innate supernatural abilities of gnomes and fey.
Only get one language per 2 ranks in linguistics. Start speaking Motugitl only.
Treats the Censer of Groteus (Special Heavy Flail) as a simple
Favored Class: Rogue or Cleric (must choose at 1st level)
I'll follow this up with the flavor text, as well as some Motugitl goods (such as the Censer). Please lend me your thoughts!
My group's fighter was also disconcerted about the whole "adjacent" factor
It's based on the fact that you're cutting through the enemy into an enemy beside him. Thus, you couldn't do it against someone who's on the other side of your body from the first target, otherwise it'd be whirlwind attack.
Been running PF since Alpha 3, and so far we're having a great time. I must ask, however, about critical hits. Other than the blurb under sneak attack, we have no real information about who and what is immune to sneak attack and if those differences apply to critical hits or not.
This has come up several time and this is the first time I've managed to remember about it between games.
Any information regarding this out there somewhere?