Then all of a sudden, book 8 comes out, and Rand, Mat, and Perrin all die, and Hogwart's suddenly falls out of the sky onto the White Tower. Now, tell me...would you read book 9?
Lol. I wouldn't read it. But I wouldn't mind if someone in WoT died at some point. For as dangerous as the world is supposed to be in that series, the characters don't seem to be in any serious jeopardy.
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Ok i just read a post on here that said major npcs were killed. Without knowing who has been killed, I recently introduced my characters (who were new to D and D) to Elminster. I haven't explained his existance to my one player who KNOWS the Realms, but Elminster just crossed paths with them.
I would like to know about the changes to the Realms. Anyone have a link or canned email that would explain it?
Jamie
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Then all of a sudden, book 8 comes out, and Rand, Mat, and Perrin all die, and Hogwart's suddenly falls out of the sky onto the White Tower. Now, tell me...would you read book 9?Lol. I wouldn't read it. But I wouldn't mind if someone in WoT died at some point. For as dangerous as the world is supposed to be in that series, the characters don't seem to be in any serious jeopardy.
I feel that the characters aren't in jeopardy of losing their lives, but their personality, character, and soul is attacked pretty consistently as the series progresses. As a matter of fact, so much so that several characters I initially liked I grew to dislike (Rand being a big one) while others I grew appreciation for (Mat for example). But I do admit they narrowly escape their fates very consistently.
But DrowVampyre kind of has the right idea, that is how I would feel if I read the FR books. My friend has every D&D novel published, usually first printings. He hasn't caught up yet, but so far he is not impressed with some of the plot developments of late.
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Ok i just read a post on here that said major npcs were killed. Without knowing who has been killed, I recently introduced my characters (who were new to D and D) to Elminster. I haven't explained his existance to my one player who KNOWS the Realms, but Elminster just crossed paths with them.
I would like to know about the changes to the Realms. Anyone have a link or canned email that would explain it?
Jamie
Visit Wizards website here and go to the Countdown to the Realms articles.
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let's say you're a fan of the Wheel of Time. You've been reading every book, loving them, waiting for the next. Then all of a sudden, book 8 comes out, and Rand, Mat, and Perrin all die, and Hogwart's suddenly falls out of the sky onto the White Tower. Now, tell me...would you read book 9?
In your exact example? No...
But...
If the main characters all died, and a there was a reason a castle fell out of the sky, and it was told well enough...
Then maybe. MAYBE (but, probably not)...
My point is, we have a hard time divorcing ourselves from the setting. To many of us the two are one and the same...
We as gamers also tend to look at reading a different way as well (obviously, gamers tend to read with an "eye" towards gaming). Many people that read, well, they read just for the sake of reading. These people will read the ingredients off a can of tomatoes just because they don’t currently have a book in their nose... these types of readers, FAR outnumber us gamers (and again, it's these types of readers that typically do not care what happens, as long as a good story is told)!
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
We as gamers also tend to look at reading a different way as well (obviously, gamers tend to read with an "eye" towards gaming). Many people that read, well, they read just for the sake of reading. These people will read the ingredients off a can of tomatoes just because they don’t currently have a book in their nose... these types of readers, FAR outnumber us gamers (and again, it's these types of readers that typically do not care what happens, as long as a good story is told)!
That's true, but that's why I used Wheel of Time as an example. True, there was an RPG of it made, but it was never widely played (I assume, anyway - I hardly saw it in stores and I know it's no longer in publication). Yet, as you say, only if they had a -really- good reason, and told the story -really- well...then you might -maybe- read it, but still probably not. I'm going to assume you're not incredibly attached to Wheel of Time as a game setting - I may be wrong, but in this case, given the lack of success of the WoT game, I kinda doubt it.
The casual readers don't care what happens, but I expect FR readers do - if they didn't care, they wouldn't be reading FR, I expect. Not widely, at least. There are plenty of non-FR books out there they could read if all they wanted was a good story. They may not be as upset as those of us that are both gamers -and- avid novel readers, but I can't imagine at least a fair number of them not being upset at all. Whether they'll stop buying the novels because of it is another question entirely...I certainly hope so. I'm probably crazy to even hope for it, but I hope that sales of both game product and novels will utterly tank after these changes and Wizards will wise up and fix it (maybe with a few archmages working in concert to turn back time...or something. -Anything-.).
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(maybe with a few archmages working in concert to turn back time...or something. -Anything-.).
Hey, now there's an idea, what with Mystra gone. She put such harsh restrictions on time travel magic, and with her out of the picture now... ;-p
LOL...
And no, I didn't care much about the WoT setting (though I have it)...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
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(maybe with a few archmages working in concert to turn back time...or something. -Anything-.).Hey, now there's an idea, what with Mystra gone. She put such harsh restrictions on time travel magic, and with her out of the picture now... ;-p
LOL...
And no, I didn't care much about the WoT setting (though I have it)...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
That's odd. I have it too. Maybe it wasn't so unpopular as we have been led to believe!?
The closest parallel to this whole situation, I think, lies in the Dragonlance Fifth Age change.
See, this kind of thing shouldn't be. We as RPGers always preach and hold dear the matra that it's always "about the story" and not "about the rules."
The very idea of changing aspects of a setting to fit game mechanics is the very antithesis of this, and it's happened far too often (Forgotten Realms: Avatar Triology for 1st/2nd, LP for 3/4; Dragonlance as mentioned above, etc.)
Another reason I prefer universal systems.
See, this kind of thing shouldn't be. We as RPGers always preach and hold dear the matra that it's always "about the story" and not "about the rules."
The very idea of changing aspects of a setting to fit game mechanics is the very antithesis of this, and it's happened far too often (Forgotten Realms: Avatar Triology for 1st/2nd, LP for 3/4; Dragonlance as mentioned above, etc.)
I agree, but from a practical standpoint if you're WotC and you've got a new edition with rules quite different from those in the past, are you going to just scrap your most popular setting because it doesn't fit?
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I agree, but from a practical standpoint if you're WotC and you've got a new edition with rules quite different from those in the past, are you going to just scrap your most popular setting because it doesn't fit?
The upset isn't over the fact they changed the Realms (the Realms are all about change), but are over the fact of the how/what/why they changed things. Wizards needed to keep the Realms going, as you say it would make no sense to scrap them over an edition change.
There are entire unexplored continents on Faerun to drop in new things (or, here's an idea, how about no dragonborn at all!) and ways to change things without slaughtering characters and deities. Admittedly, the biggest obstacle was the new magic system. But a few posters here have casually and astutely suggested they could have put the setting back in time to a part of unexplored history (pre-DR). 10,000 years is a lot of room for history to adjust to massive changes by the PCs and get to the present-day Realms. The notion of playing in ancient Faerun or on another continent might even reinvigorate some long-time FR players (who can have their cake [playing on Faerun] and eat it too [get to play 4th Edition and/or older editions no problem]).
After watching Dark Knight this weekend, a saying occured to me in reference to campaign settings managed by large companies with changing interests over time. To paraphrase Harvey Dent:
"You either die the Greyhawk, or you live long enough to see yourself become the Dragonlance."
"You either die the Greyhawk, or you live long enough to see yourself become the Dragonlance."
Hmmm...
That gives me an idea for a alternative future for Toril :The Dark Realms.
Think Forgotten Realms + Midnight + Ravenloft.
Actually it makes sense, with a goddess of the night taking over the control of magic...
(edited)
Realistically, I don't think that Wizards of the Coast were intending to make much from sales of 4E campaign settings anyway, given the schedule of 'three books only' (one for players, one for DMs, and one adventure) for each setting, although I'm unclear (not having any RPGA experience) what effect the 4E 'living' campaign ostensibly being set in FR would have on saleable material in circulation for 4E FR.
We were always told that LG had a very small, if not negligable, impact on the sales of WOTC products, despite its massive popularity. I find this hard to believe. LG's play numbers, over 8 years, were high enough that when the players purchased books, they probably impacted the sales in an appreciable manner, albeit a small one. Also, LGCS revisions, notably Chris Tulach's, opened up as Core/Open many splatbook items, ostensibly to help sell books. These options certainly did not improve or protect the flavor of Greyhawk or the campaign, imo.
Casey
former BK Triad
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It is true that with Mystra gone, time travel again becomes a challenge for the Forgotten Realms. It is such a challenge that I would argue that the most civilized Realmsian mages would likely open a one-way time gate to the distant past and set up shop then. In fact, that could be the root of Netheril or the Imaskari in the first place.
How's that for a role-playing hook? Survivors of the spellplague from Halruaa (or the like) prepare a gate back in time and discover, only after years of work, that they have become the hated Imaskari or the Netherese arcanists. Reminds me of Julian May's outstanding SF series and milieu about the impact of psychic powers among humanity (wherein the first-generation of immortals create a rebellion against alien overlords, are exiled to the distant past and, impliedly, become those alien overlords through the operation of time thereby giving rise to their own exile. :) )
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How's that for a role-playing hook? Survivors of the spellplague from Halruaa (or the like) prepare a gate back in time and discover, only after years of work, that they have become the hated Imaskari or the Netherese arcanists. Reminds me of Julian May's outstanding SF series and milieu about the impact of psychic powers among humanity (wherein the first-generation of immortals create a rebellion against alien overlords, are exiled to the distant past and, impliedly, become those alien overlords through the operation of time thereby giving rise to their own exile. :) )
That's a hot idea...
I like!
Realistically, I don't think that Wizards of the Coast were intending to make much from sales of 4E campaign settings anyway, given the schedule of 'three books only' (one for players, one for DMs, and one adventure) for each setting, although I'm unclear (not having any RPGA experience) what effect the 4E 'living' campaign ostensibly being set in FR would have on saleable material in circulation for 4E FR.
During the 3.x era WotC was willing to allow companies to licences their settings to 3PPs. However one of their requirements was that they got to publish the first book.
This rule that WotC got to do the campaign book was a huge deal for the 3PPs as it seemed to be common knowledge that the campaign book would sell like hot cakes but that follow on material would have drastically reduced sales.
We saw the same thing during the TSR era when TSR made odles of cash with the initial campaign setting but then lost money on the follow on supplements.
Hence I suspect that, far from WotC not expecting to make money off the campaign settings their in fact hoping to cash in. They are just being careful and making sure that only play in the campaign settings up to the point were it has historically been very lucrative and get out of the game long before the point where its historically lost money.
They are also being careful not to create competing versions of D&D.
The closest parallel to this whole situation, I think, lies in the Dragonlance Fifth Age change.See, this kind of thing shouldn't be. We as RPGers always preach and hold dear the matra that it's always "about the story" and not "about the rules."
The very idea of changing aspects of a setting to fit game mechanics is the very antithesis of this, and it's happened far too often (Forgotten Realms: Avatar Triology for 1st/2nd, LP for 3/4; Dragonlance as mentioned above, etc.)
So far as I know the Forgotten Realms is the only setting they constantly change in order to make it conform to the new rules. Other settings get things taken out or slotted in in order to conform but everything is done on the sly and, mostly, we all just pretend that thinsg were always that way until the next edition.
You mention Dragonlance but that was never changed to conform to a new edition - it was spun out to become an entire game in its own right and brought back into Dungeons and Dragons only when that ceased to be profitable. That said the whole thing soured a lot of Dragonlance Fans. I've certainly never had any real use for the world as it evolved much after the War of the Lance period.
This actually made the franchise appealing to Margret Weis as she freelanced the campaign setting book for WotC which focused on the campaigns modern era and then, when she actually had the licence, published the War of the Lance campaign setting, presumably, knowing that the modern era of the campaign was not really all that popular among the campaigns fans while the War of the Lance era was by far their favourite period of the campaign setting. Thus she managed to more or less circumnavigate WotCs rule that they got to put out the first book of any licenced campaign. Certianly she game them the first book - but the core campaign setting she gave them was never the core campaign setting that was really going to sell.
Now I suspect that WotCs marketing muscle means that the Dragonlance Campaign setting book outsold the War of the Lance setting book but not by as much as if they had reversed the process.
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So far as I know the Forgotten Realms is the only setting they constantly change in order to make it conform to the new rules. Other settings get things taken out or slotted in in order to conform but everything is done on the sly and, mostly, we all just pretend that thinsg were always that way until the next edition.
FR has introduced changes with each new edition, 2nd being the more dramatic of the prior two. However, in some cases I'd go as far as to say that the edition change from 2nd to 3rd did not cause changes, so much as it simply chronicled/documented changes that were ongoing in the various novels. Even the 1st to 2nd edition changes were not so sweeping or widespread as to not be able to be ignored, ultimately, if one so chose. (In fact, my first assumption on seeing Banites in my first 3rd Edition game was to think "oh, this guy's houseruling that Bane never died")
You mention Dragonlance but that was never changed to conform to a new edition - it was spun out to become an entire game in its own right and brought back into Dungeons and Dragons only when that ceased to be profitable. That said the whole thing soured a lot of Dragonlance Fans. I've certainly never had any real use for the world as it evolved much after the War of the Lance period.
That basically sums it up. Honestly, though, the difference here between a new game in its own right, and an edition change, has gotten pretty narrow. If we simply took the D&D name off of 4th Edition, how many of us would really call it D&D, anymore than we did the SAGA rules? :P
There is no exact parallel (and really, such things never completely exist), but I think the Dragonlance episode probably comes closest. We'll see, however, if FR plays out the same way. I do think, though, that WotC probably won't see as much of a financial hit, if only because they will count as "successes" those fans who buy the one book, hate it, and toss it on the shelf never to play it again.
To me, though, that would represent a failure. After all, what WotC really ought to be aiming for is to draw more fans into the world, adding to the existing base, while retaining as much of that base as possible.
To me, though, that would represent a failure. After all, what WotC really ought to be aiming for is to draw more fans into the world, adding to the existing base, while retaining as much of that base as possible.
I'd think your right though not for the purposes of RPGs. I'd think that the value of FR as an RPG setting is, at this point, totally secondary to the value of the IP for novels. I have to wonder why they don't completely take the setting out of the hands of the the RPG division. They should be making changes to the setting solely with the intent of making the setting a good place to write novels for. The novel editors should be deciding everything about the setting and they should simply be dictating to the RPG guys at WotC about how the world is going to work and leaving it up to the RPG guys to figure out how to translate that into rules.
Instead they have this completely backward with RPG guys making changes to a valuable IP that could damage novel sales.
Unless, of course these changes have actually been made with an eye on the valuable novels side of things. If nuking the Realms actually translates into more sales of paperback novels then of course it will have been the right decision. No idea if this was what they were doing however and it does kind of seem improbable. I'm unclear how killing off characters could help sell novels so it would seem more likely that WotC is busy damaging valuable Hasbro IP.
Yes, the nuked Forgotten Realms is certainly a mess of a trainwreck.
But yes, I'm also glad that it happened. I now know that I'm not missing anything since I'm no longer purchasing any 4e material of any sort - FR included.
Yay, me!
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...I'd think that the value of FR as an RPG setting is, at this point, totally secondary to the value of the IP for novels. I have to wonder why they don't completely take the setting out of the hands of the the RPG division. They should be making changes to the setting solely with the intent of making the setting a good place to write novels for.
Well, in a way isn't that what they are doing in the long run anyway?
For what its worth, this is something I posted at Candlekeep as what I might have done in order to address the "problems" that WOTC viewed the Realms as having without the radical changes they made:
The problem is, the "concept" guys don't seem to worry about simple things like nuance, they wanted to sum all of this up quickly:
Spellplague + 100 years = New Forgotten Realms
There are several of their design objectives they could have implemented without the drastic measure that they took. I don't agree with all of them, but I probably could have dealt with them, had they done something more like this:
"Problem" = No Time to Change things: Move the campaign setting forward 10 years, allow most of the areas hit hard by the RSEs of 3rd edition to rest, but this gives time for "off camera" developments to happen.
"Problem" = Chosen of Mystra: "Mystra calls all of her Chosen to a secret place and for an unknown reason. There are many wild theories, but the only facts known are that the Chosen have not been confirmed to have been seen in Faerun for nearly 10 years.
Speculation ranges from the death of the Chosen and the appointing of new Chosen, to the Chosen being sent to the far ends of the Multiverse on a mission known only to them and their goddess, but the fact remains that they have been absent from the sight of Faerun for ten seasons."
Without killing them off, you shunt them out of the picture. If you hate them, you can imagine that they are all dead. If you love them, they can still be working behind the scenes, perhaps a bit more carefully due to whatever reason you might want to devise, but they don't get "nuked."
"Problem" = Explanation for the New Magic System: "After contesting with Shar over the creation of the Shadow Weave, Mystra finally manages to find a way to wrest the Shadow Weave from her enemy, and reabsorbs it into the Weave.
The resulting change in the nature of the Weave brought on by this merging changes the manner in which wizards relate to the Weave, and Mystra has to dispatch the Magister to aid in teaching wizards to access this power once again."
"Problem" = Mystra is Good Aligned: "Upon absorbing the Shadow Weave, the last vestiges of Mystra's humanity faded away, and a bit of the darkness of Shar seeped into her. She became like unto the Mystra of old, a more dispassionate guardian of the Weave than she was before."
"Problem" = Mystra meddles too much in Faerun: "After calling the Chosen to her, many of Mystra's faithful lost their connection to their deity, and her high priest no longer received visions of the Lady of Mysteries.
Azuth's faith adopted many of these into their ranks, and according to the Church's dogma, the only direct servant of Mystra still roaming Faerun at this time is the Magister.
Some in Azuth's faith have postulated that Mystra needed more time to repair and integrate the Weave after absorbing the Shadow Weave, while others posited that forces from beyond may have seeped into reality while the Weave was damaged."
The actual goddess that controls the Weave is not distant and removed, Azuth gets promoted as the God of Magic, but not the god in control of the Weave.
"Problem" = Too Many Gods: After ten years, you can easily have something already in place in Faerun run its course. A handful of gods are really popular, a few more are less popular, and most of the rest of Demigods serving them, without having to kill any of them off or conceive some twisted soap opera.
The worship of the gods is suppose to influence their power levels, so 10 years worth of time should be enough to recalibrate a few divine power levels and bump a lot of more recent gods back to demigod level, if it really important to do so.
"Problem" = Planar Structure: "After the Time of Troubles, Ao had the gods remove their domains from the planes they once resided in. He did this so that the gods would not embroil themselves so heavily in the politics of the planes.
Ao was still not happy with the level of interaction with foreign beings of power, and so, Ao shattered the connections to the old Outer Planes, sealed them away from Faerun's cosmology, and set the godly domains adrift in the Astral Sea, which he rerouted for his own use."
There really is no reason to change the Plane of Shadows or Faerie much at all, and why can't the cosmology be a little different for Faerun than the core, as long as all of the important parts are there?
My point is, they could have made changes, and done pretty much the same thing "mechanically" with 4e, and still not done things that I felt really ran counter to why I was a fan of the setting.
Originally posted in this thread at the keep:
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To me, though, that would represent a failure. After all, what WotC really ought to be aiming for is to draw more fans into the world, adding to the existing base, while retaining as much of that base as possible.I'd think your right though not for the purposes of RPGs. I'd think that the value of FR as an RPG setting is, at this point, totally secondary to the value of the IP for novels. I have to wonder why they don't completely take the setting out of the hands of the the RPG division. They should be making changes to the setting solely with the intent of making the setting a good place to write novels for. The novel editors should be deciding everything about the setting and they should simply be dictating to the RPG guys at WotC about how the world is going to work and leaving it up to the RPG guys to figure out how to translate that into rules.
Instead they have this completely backward with RPG guys making changes to a valuable IP that could damage novel sales.
Unless, of course these changes have actually been made with an eye on the valuable novels side of things. If nuking the Realms actually translates into more sales of paperback novels then of course it will have been the right decision. No idea if this was what they were doing however and it does kind of seem improbable. I'm unclear how killing off characters could help sell novels so it would seem more likely that WotC is busy damaging valuable Hasbro IP.
Apparently some of the novelists feel this way - and correctly - that as you suggest, the novels should dictate the direction of the campaign setting. Up until 4th Edition, there was some give and take, but it was mostly the RPG direction. Now it seems entirely RPG driven. I recall Ed Greenwood mentioning back-room arguments along these lines. Sorry, no link yet.)
But this post inspired a thought: why doesn't Wizards just create a FR RPG and be done with it. Keep the setting the same, but retool the d20/4th Edition rules to fit what the setting intends, rather than the other way around. I have NO idea how to go about this at the moment, nor how successful such an endeavour would be, but I would rather have D&D v1.0FR than a crippled Realms to fit the 4th Edition design. But of course, this will never happen as they intend to use FR to sell the 4th Edition rules.
Oh, how I wish they let FR be dictated by the novels, as you say. And I'd be all for the creation of a separate FR game, too, to fit the setting. I doubt we'll see either happen, though...but there's only one way we might, and that' just to not buy their new products.
Once we give them our money, as far as they're concerned, we fully support their changes. WotC has made it painfully obvious that they don't listen to the people who buy their products in the first place, so the only way to get their attention and possibly have our beloved setting fixed is...to not buy anything relating to it. If the money dries up all of a sudden, you can bet they'll look into why right quick, and then -maybe- they'll see that the only way to get the money to come back in is to fix the butchery they allowed (and hopefully send the people responsible for it to the unemployed line).
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Once we give them our money, as far as they're concerned, we fully support their changes. WotC has made it painfully obvious that they don't listen to the people who buy their products in the first place, so the only way to get their attention and possibly have our beloved setting fixed is...to not buy anything relating to it. If the money dries up all of a sudden, you can bet they'll look into why right quick, and then -maybe- they'll see that the only way to get the money to come back in is to fix the butchery they allowed (and hopefully send the people responsible for it to the unemployed line).
Sadly, this seems to be exactly the case regarding feedback with WotC as a whole. It's been my experience with these changes thus far, and seems to have been the experience of many others (from Candlekeep, the WotC FR boards themselves, or elsewhere).
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Oh, how I wish they let FR be dictated by the novels, as you say. And I'd be all for the creation of a separate FR game, too, to fit the setting. I doubt we'll see either happen, though...but there's only one way we might, and that' just to not buy their new products.
Once we give them our money, as far as they're concerned, we fully support their changes. WotC has made it painfully obvious that they don't listen to the people who buy their products in the first place, so the only way to get their attention and possibly have our beloved setting fixed is...to not buy anything relating to it. If the money dries up all of a sudden, you can bet they'll look into why right quick, and then -maybe- they'll see that the only way to get the money to come back in is to fix the butchery they allowed (and hopefully send the people responsible for it to the unemployed line).
I'm with you on that, DrowVampyre. I will not be spending a dime on anything 4e, and to be honest half of that sentiment comes from what they did with FR. But you know, just as someone mentioned above, that they will trumpet their success (just like they're doing with the core books) with huge initial sales. The real measure is how things are going a year or two down the road (which would then coincide with, if my theory is right, the offering for sale of the D&D franchise).
I'm with you on that, DrowVampyre. I will not be spending a dime on anything 4e, and to be honest half of that sentiment comes from what they did with FR. But you know, just as someone mentioned above, that they will trumpet their success (just like they're doing with the core books) with huge initial sales. The real measure is how things are going a year or two down the road (which would then coincide with, if my theory is right, the offering for sale of the D&D franchise).
Oh yes, it will not be a quick thing. They'll have their huge initial sales, as you say...but i hope their novel sales tank. They won't immediately, of course - not until readers of the novels who don't follow the game begin to see the asinine changes. But in a year, maybe two, maybe three...hopefully they'll see the sales dying, and track it back to its origin and see that sales were great...until the changes for 4e in the setting.
It'll be a crappy several years, no doubt...but I urge all fans of the real FR that feel as betrayed as I do not to buy any FR products until they do fix it. At the very least, don't buy anything until we have proof that the sales -aren't- dropping after a year or so (gods I hope that's not the case, but it's a possibility). Don't buy the FRCG, don't buy the novels (ok, finish out the series that are waiting for final books, but don't buy new ones!), don't buy anything with the FR label on it, even if you buy the 4e mechanics.
If you're curious to see just -how- bad these changes are, take a look at the FRCG at a bookstore or borrow it from a friend or get a look at it in some other way that doesn't give WotC your money, because I assure you, if you buy the book, whether you set it aside afterwards or even -burn- it, in WotC's opinion you're a fan, you love the changes, and you want more.
Edit: Apologies for the strength of personal opinions expressed in this post. Wizards of the Coast can no doubt point at posts like this and say: 'Hah. See: posts like these, from people who think that they know better than our design team what should be going on in the setting prove exactly why we needed to shake things up so much'.
No need to apologize.
First, you were not offensive nor rude, you were expressing your opinion.Second, we are not on WotC's messageboards, so you won't suffer the wrath of a proxy of the mighty mages of the shore.
Third, you are right.
The fact is that many players know at least as much about the Realms than WotC R&D staff, and some even know more, much more.
Same thing for Greyhawk fans, the same way than some Star Wars fans know more about Tatooine's tusken clans than Lucas himself, some trekkies know more about klingon poetry than the producers of Star Trek, and so on.
Never underestimate the fans. Yes, you can call them geeks, but they know their stuff.
Is 4E FR going with the default cosmology outlined in Worlds and Monsters? Was that mentioned in a post/one of the preview articles?
Rich Baker has said that they will be "similar," and the ad copy for the Empyrean Trilogy mentions the planes being shattered and the Abyss "falling" through the planes. So I'm guessing yes.
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"Problem" = Too Many Gods: After ten years, you can easily have something already in place in Faerun run its course. A handful of gods are really popular, a few more are less popular, and most of the rest of Demigods serving them, without having to kill any of them off or conceive some twisted soap opera.The 'twisted soap opera' quote, is exactly what I felt that that bizarre Tyr/Helm/Sune business reminded me of, and also, to a lesser extent, the Shar/Cyric/Mystra thing. And all without Ao apparently caring enough about the world any more to step in and saying 'knock it off, this is what led to my inflicting The Time of Troubles last time around to teach you lot (new deities excepted) a lesson'. ()
Edit:
Apologies for the strength of personal opinions expressed in this post. Wizards of the Coast can no doubt point at posts like this and say: 'Hah. See: posts like these, from people who think that they know better than our design team what should be going on in the setting prove exactly why we needed to shake things up so much'.
Okay, I know a fair bit about the happenings, but is it seriously true that Shar seduced Cyric?
That is ridiculous, and an insult to my All-Time Favorite Paranoid Deity! The guy had the foresight to steal the portfolio of the Gof of Murder and his portfolio includes lies and deception, but now he falls for a goddess who is known for secrets? The ultimate liar gets lied to?
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There are too many well-reasoned, eloquently explained posts to comment on at once. For now, KnighterrantJr - thanks for your super-organized treatise in particular, very well done.
I have always resepected members of the Candlekeep community, having been one myself. Overall, has anyone spoken privately to them about the "kick in the head" they must be feeling? I'd love to know how they were handling it? Literally, are there any thoughts over there about "breaking away" to create a non-spellplague timeline?
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I like the concept of saying "Don't buy anything 4e FR", the problem with that is, yeah, if people actually did it, it would probably work...
But people being people, more than likely, they will buy it in the end...
It's like those silly boycott Exxon/Mobil emails we all get now and then, if it actually happened (the boycott), it might actually get someone’s attention. But what happens? no one does it...
I see the same thing happening here. We're all up in arms now, but when the time actually comes, the book will be purchased...
So for the record, I don't plan on buying the campaign setting book, or anything else 4e FR related (but then, I'm only human)...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
I like the concept of saying "Don't buy anything 4e FR", the problem with that is, yeah, if people actually did it, it would probably work...
But people being people, more than likely, they will buy it in the end...
It's like those silly boycott Exxon/Mobil emails we all get now and then, if it actually happened (the boycott), it might actually get someone’s attention. But what happens? no one does it...
I see the same thing happening here. We're all up in arms now, but when the time actually comes, the book will be purchased...
So for the record, I don't plan on buying the campaign setting book, or anything else 4e FR related (but I'm only human)...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
Oh, I know. Most people won't do it, even if they intend to. However...that's why I say at least wait until we know that their sales aren't being hurt by it, in a year or whatever. Easier to make yourself wait "just a little longer" than it is to convince yourself to never buy it. ^_-
Needless to say that this is a long thread and I haven’t read every single one so if I’m being redundant please forgive me.
I think what Wizards has done to FR is what’s been done to too many sci-fi and fantasy franchises. Over the years a few brilliant people have given the world such great nerd-lit and art. Years down the road those who now follow in their footsteps grow jealous because they know that they don’t have the talent to do something that cool on their own so they go about “reimagining” it. Usually this results in horrible ret-cons or a badly inspired Frank Miller attempt to make something not edgy or dark edgier and darker.
FR is hit with a double whammy here because the 4th ed. rules are not really compatible with much of the twenty years of flavor.
Just my hastily thrown together opinion on too little sleep and too much coffee.
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Don't buy the FRCG, don't buy the novels (ok, finish out the series that are waiting for final books, but don't buy new ones!), don't buy anything with the FR label on it, even if you buy the 4e mechanics.
The only series I plan on finishing is The Twilight War. The series I will not finish are: The Lady Penitent Trilogy, The Haunted Land Trilogy, The Empyrean Odyssey, and Salvatore's Transitions Trilogy. And I won't be purchasing any other FR books after Shadowrealm. All the money from that budget will likely go towards Planet Stories books instead (thank you Paizo).
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so the only way to get their attention and possibly have our beloved setting fixed is...to not buy anything relating to it. If the money dries up all of a sudden, you can bet they'll look into why right quick,
Unfortunately, companies are more likely to say, 'Well, it sucked, so we mixed it all up and turned it on it's head to make it 'fresh' in a last-ditch attempt to save it (aren't we just bold heroes, for trying to save it?), but the customers weren't there, so we're axing it now. It's all your fault for not buying it.'
And then Realms fans get to join the Greyhawk fans in the back of the bus.
My odds that anyone at WotC / Hasbro would take the fall for nuking the popularity of a valuable IP, instead of passing the buck and blaming the fans for not supporting it, are a googleplex to one.
On the other hand, despite an encyclopaedic collection of 2e Realms stuff and Dragon articles from all the way back to Dragon 47 about Realmslore, I bought only the 3e Forgotten Realms campaign setting, because the Time of Troubles messed up the setting more than I cared for. I stand in awe of how much bigger they messed it up this time.
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IMO there are enough good reasons (from a publisher view that is) for the changes in FR:
1) FR is the strongest Brand Name WoC has for a Campaign Setting. So rather than introducing the "Points of Light Campaign Setting" and support it with massive advertising, they change FR to suit the new game mechanics. Even if most FR fans do not like it, many will buy it nonetheless. Furthermore, many casual and/or new gamers will recognize the FR brand name and buy the setting for their 4th games.
2) It is much easier to write in the new FR. Designers and authors can freely invent without much of the constricting canon of the old FR.
3) ALL NEW BOOKS! As the Realms have fundamentally changed you can not use your 1st, 2nd or 3r edition stuff for your new 4th edition FR campaign. But WoC will probably be happy to support all your needs with new Books.
Now we will have to see if the new Realms will be comercially successful or not.
I think that the novels will be a success as many non-roleplayers or roleplayers who do not play in FR read them too.
But the RP stuff? We will see...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This all reminds me a great deal of BattleTech's decision to go to Mechwarrior: Dark Age.
That turned out real well, didn't it? ;)
Funny. I was just thinking that while reading this. New nation plopped in the middle of the sphere, facrions acting weird, old friends suddenly dead, Victor = Drizzt, the whiteout = spellplauge etc.
When was the last Dark Age product anyway?
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Finally collected my thoughts. Yes, it's a mess and got a lot of folks angry, me included...at first.
But now it's a really good feeling. After my current campaign I feel more free knowing I'll not have official product muck up my designs or stray drastically from my vision. I never truly let that interfere before, but now the future is truly in my and my player's hands because we'll have nothing to do with this "new Realms". I've got all the support my material from when it was still cool.
Second, that saves my money to spend on Paizo. woot
-DM Jeff
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I agree. Having WOTC go the way they have elected to go gives me the freedom to run my campaign in the realms (circa 1364) without having to worry about my players calling for me to use the new stuff. They are so turned off by the annihilation of the Realms they knew, I can now build the game forward using my 1st, 2d, and 3d edition supplements (all bought on the cheap since they have no utility in the current setting) as I see fit.
I have already decided to retrofit the Time of Troubles a bit by having Bane impersonated by the arch-fiend Asmodeus (completely unknowable to the PCs just flavor for me) and ignoring all the 'Return of the Archwizards' stuff.
Now it really is my Realms as a DM. :)
It's like those silly boycott Exxon/Mobil emails we all get now and then, if it actually happened (the boycott), it might actually get someone’s attention. But what happens? no one does it...
Off-topic, but I wanted to point out that this plan doesn't work because people fail to adhere to it ... even if they did stick with it, there would be negligable effect. I don't want to crowd this thread with an explanation though, so I'll leave it at that.
Knight, thanks for the knowledge. Wasn't sure if the new FR was shifting cosmologies or not. Sounds like the Abyss is heading down to the Inner Planes (and they're likely swirling into the Elemental Chaos)
Seems interesting. :)