The coin that Madraivus dropped on the trail is valued at considerably more than its printed amount as it is an old coin that collectors would be interested in...
Surely most of the coins within Scarwall are the same age or older, particularly all those in Kazavon's hoard for example.
Perhaps some are new due to the slain orcs that wander in from time to time or some of the other new arrivals that no doubt contribute some small portion of the loot available in Scarwall, but many of these hoardes are surely as old if not older than Madraivus' lone coin... Correct?
I have always had a problem with how genericly most sources treat "coinage" considering the vast differences likely to be found between quality of the coins minted in different places at different times.
Would it be possible for you to summarize how much wealth an individual PC should have attained at the end of each book of the AP? I believe you did something similar for the Experience Level each character should have attained after finishing each part of the AP. Thanks in advance!
The coin that Madraivus dropped on the trail is valued at considerably more than its printed amount as it is an old coin that collectors would be interested in...
Assuming collectors exist. Valuing coinage for its minting in contrast to its content is a relatively modern idea.
I have no doubt, that the above is the case in truth, however it specifically indicates that the coin that Mandraivus dropped is valued by collectors of antiquities (20 GP for this 1 PP), and that anyone aware of its historical significance would pay ten times the price (200 GP for this 1 PP) the antiquities collector would pay.
So ruling out the historically significant part as I can see how that might be unique to this coin, as opposed to those within Kavazon's hoard the text suggests that antiquities collectors (who do exist despite the relative newness of the concept in the real world, real world comparisons hold little value I would suggest) do value the 700 year old Ustalav coin at twice the value of the going rate for a platinum piece.
The Guide to Korvosa alone gives the Gilded Orrery, Jeggare Museum, Sagitar Tiguan in the Gold Market, the Green Market and Exemplary Execrables
There are relatively simple ways to handle this in game with which I am comfortable. I simply wished to know from the writers/editors if this was an oversight, or if there is something more to Mandraivus' coin than the coins in Kazavon's hoard (for example). In addition I'd still like to know what value the PCs should be managing at the end of each AP in terms of their gear/wealth.
I can't help with your question but I can note that my RotRL PCs asked about the coinage of every treasure they found, and obsessively hoarded all the Thassilonian coins, refusing to spend them. I thought it was a nice detail, though it made me regret my lack of Golarionese history and geography knowledge skills....
Mary
Creative Director
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My gut feeling for coins, honestly, is to avoid going down the road of rare coins entirely. I kept the old coin in "Scarwall" simply because its flavor was so cool and interesting, but for the most part, introducing varying vaules for coins (be they from different regions or different times) is one of the best ways to bog down a game. Of course, all game groups are different, but just make sure that if treasure splits are turning into micro-mananged ordeals wherein each coin in a haul has to be tagged with a mint date and a location... just make sure all the players are enjoying it.
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My gut feeling for coins, honestly, is to avoid going down the road of rare coins entirely. I kept the old coin in "Scarwall" simply because its flavor was so cool and interesting, but for the most part, introducing varying vaules for coins (be they from different regions or different times) is one of the best ways to bog down a game. Of course, all game groups are different, but just make sure that if treasure splits are turning into micro-mananged ordeals wherein each coin in a haul has to be tagged with a mint date and a location... just make sure all the players are enjoying it.
i include them in treasures occasionally, as sometimes one or two of my players ask (especially if it is a really old adventure site). I usually do it on the fly, for every century I divide the number of coins by 10 and keep the value the same. Then I describe something unique about the coin to let the players keep track. In a way, it is like handing out gems.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I occasionally include "rare coins" as antiques, but keep in mind that coin values are not the abstraction we have right now. A gold piece is valuable because of its material, not because of any forge stamp. A lump of gold of equal weight would usually be of about equal value (minus a markup because it might be alloyed or otherwise tampered with).
That said, collectors of "antiques" probably exist, but way not enough to buy a whole treasure horde. More likely, you'll be able to sell a few coins to interested parties, but spend the majority of them as normal coinage. Possibly, you even melt most of them down to maintain the scarcity of those you wish to sell as antiques.
Ive been playing with that idea for a setting Im working on, but that works out only as long as ancient treasure troves are not found on a daily basis. In my setting its less dungeon delving and has a lot of renasceance to it (less in style, more in historical fact)
Now, in Golarion (and most fantasy setting) tecnically every treasure is made up of old or ancient coins. So, eventually, they wont be rare anymore ;)
An idea that is simple but still keeps the flavour is to say that the treasure does incluse old/ancient coins, but the VALUE is the given one
So, a treasure that says "5.000 gp" is WORTH 5.000gp, but could be 1.000gp from 500 years ago, or 2.500gp that is twice the current size, etc
You dont even need to go too much into gaming issues unless you want to (too many coins, too heavy, hard to trade, etc)
There's also the issue of supply and demand. A single coin is a rarity, a hoard is not. Common Roman coins aren't worth much more than their material - even though thy might be thousands of years old, there are lots of them. In Golarion, platinum pieces are rare anyway, so an old one could certainly have added value, but Varisians probably find smaller denominations when they dig up the back garden.
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My gut feeling for coins, honestly, is to avoid going down the road of rare coins entirely. I kept the old coin in "Scarwall" simply because its flavor was so cool and interesting, but for the most part, introducing varying vaules for coins (be they from different regions or different times) is one of the best ways to bog down a game. Of course, all game groups are different, but just make sure that if treasure splits are turning into micro-mananged ordeals wherein each coin in a haul has to be tagged with a mint date and a location... just make sure all the players are enjoying it.
On a related note, I've always been bugged about how there's mention of trade bars being used for large amounts of money, but the math doesn't really work. For instance, the SRD lists 1 pound of gold as worth 50gp under trade goods, but 50 gp weigh 1 lb, as do all the other coins. The other denominations also imply that the coins are 100% pure. (1lb Cu = 5 sp, 1lb Ag = 1 gp, 1lb Pt = 500 gp). Is there some simple difference between avirdupois (sp?) and imperial pounds that accounts for this?
And what is up with the tradition of tons of copper pieces as pointless loot? Did the Thassilonians and Azlanti loot a previous civilization's electric grid? I know this issue came up in an episode from OotS, but it's so common. Hoards with pocket change by the kiloton aren't just stupid, they make the other coins less valuable. How easy is it really to sort out the few thousand gp from the tens or even hundreds of thousands of cp? Platinum from silver is even worse since they're both grayish. Why is there no creature whose purpose is to transform masses of useless change into worthwhile trade bars?
In China, large amounts of copper coins were in circulation from around 1000 A.D. until 1900. Basically, most day to day transactions were made in copper, and a lot of people received their wages in them. Soldiers' wages in the 18th century were around 1000 to 2000 copper "cash" per month. The coins were usually tied up in strings of 1000 (hence the hole in the middle of old Chinese copper coinage).
For larger transactions, like paying taxes or buying real estate, people used silver--it wasn't minted, so the assayers did a brisk business sealing and certifying the weight of packets of silver.
So it's entirely conceivable that there might be hoards of copper coins in a society that uses them regularly. And they make nice beds for young dragons who haven't accumulated enough wealth to sleep on silver or gold instead.
My own approach to this problem hits both extremes. At the beginning of a campaign, when wealth is scarce and every bit of campaign-world flavor is interesting, I detail treasure greatly--describing every objet-d'art and at least some of the coinage. Later, players are slaying dragons or breaking open the treasure vaults of dead archmages and emperors, rather than looking for small caches of coin hidden behind loose bricks or emptying the pockets of their victims. At this point, they might even have a hireling or cohort serving as "party treasurer" to manage the details, and it makes more sense to say "it takes a wagon to haul away all the gold and treasure, and when it's all counted up you find the coin, gems, and jewelry is worth 35,000 gp."
In answer to the other question, a minted coin essentially was certified by the minter to have a certain weight of gold or silver--what determined the value of the coin was not its face value but how much gold it had in it relative to other coins. So, in theory, 50 gp ought to be worth the same as a 1 pound ingot, because they are supposed to have the same amount of gold. Of course, the DM can throw a curve ball--someone doesn't trust the stamp on your ingot and assays it before they'll take it in exchange--and the DM tells the players their gold bars are only worth 40 gp each because they are impure. Or the DM can say you didn't notice but the coins he paid you with have been shaved, and the next merchant won't take them at face value. Usually, though, this is way too much trouble. At most, it's a trick you play once for flavor--but it slows down the game because after that the players roleplay going to the assayer and make search checks to look for signs of tampering with the coins. So I'd only introduce this element into the game for a good story reason.
Why is there no creature whose purpose is to transform masses of useless change into worthwhile trade bars?
There is.
It's called a Commoner. ;)
Why is there no creature whose purpose is to transform masses of useless change into worthwhile trade bars?There is.
It's called a Commoner. ;)
Well said.
A few more thoughts...
Given that a coin's minting is assurance of value, I could see PCs having trouble spending their haul. Who's going to accept a coin from a country they've never heard of that collapsed thousands of years ago?
England in the middle ages reminted all their coins every year or two to prevent forgery and tax evasion. I could see a country like Cheliax doing that. The PCs come home with their loot only to have government agents take it for reminting, leaving the PCs with only a letter of credit (screw the historical value).
At the same time, gold is gold. It's not like paper money that will have various exchange rates. A coin will keep its intrinsic value regardless where it comes from. Arab coins were found among the Vikings. Spanish Pieces of Eight were the standard currency around the world in the 1500s-1700s even in places ruled by their enemies.
Unless you have a reason for these coins to be more valuable than their face value, treat them like any other coin. Personally, I don't think it's worth the bother to introduce "collector value."
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From a simulationist perspective, the minting of coins has the potential to provide verissimitude, and also clues.
When you loot the bandits who tried to waylay you in the forest, and they all have 5-20 sp, but those silver pieces are all from a source either ancient, far distant, or extra-planar, it raises some interesting questions about their last victim.
And it doesn't surprise me in the least that Mary's party was paying attention to that level of detail.
I really do prefer to keep coins on a safe level of abstraction.
When you get down to it, even the idea that every culture ever used 50 coins/pound is crazy (and leads to some rather small/thin gold coins, given its density).
Whenever I see a treasure hoard as containing 500 gp (for example), I just take that to mean ten pounds of gold coinage. When the players do small business (counted in small numbers of coins), I assume they have enough local and/or acceptable coins from their big mass-o-treasure. If they do mass business (like buying magic weapons), I assume that coins are being counted by weight instead of by each anyway, and the exact size of the coin is irrelevant. Even with local coins, the merchant might be weighing them to insure they haven't been shaved anyway.
A rare, good condition coin with historical significance is sometimes cool, but for the most part, gold is gold.