I have played withthe Minons in a game I was suckered into trying of 4e.
I hate Minon rules
There is a pecking order in the world if you want small and mushy, Goblins or Kobolds.
The Lich example...uh the DM controls what happens, hehe, watc *poof* he has attendants now! He is saved!
Be seriously Minon rules *Big NO stamp*
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I have played withthe Minons in a game I was suckered into trying of 4e.
I hate Minon rules
There is a pecking order in the world if you want small and mushy, Goblins or Kobolds.
The Lich example...uh the DM controls what happens, hehe, watc *poof* he has attendants now! He is saved!
Be seriously Minon rules *Big NO stamp*
So you never would give levels to creatures to boost them?
Well one of two things with your lich example. Either I need to go through every module and start planning to add in extras... or as a player I look at you funny, close my book get up and go home and let you play by yourself as I find another group.
Not a big fan of GMs doing the Deus ex Machina thing just to save their sorry butts. If it was part of the plan, part of the story, sure thing, but for a GM to just pull stuff out his butt cause he feels like it is a sure fire way to loose players.
And to be brutally honest, that is a lousy way to GM. If you are unable to create a meaningful encounter to begin with, maybe you should stick with playing a PC instead and leave GMing to someone else.
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So let me ask you guys this then, when you design an encounter say like the one I used earier, and you go ahead and scale the HP of the orcs down (since we have always been able to do that) would you go ahead and award full XP fo fighting all 20 Orcs, and would you award full XP for fighting the reduced HP ogres?
Or, do you just make an encounter with the lich and add at most one or two helpers like most people do?
And between the scenarios, which would you, as a player find more fun?
And one last thing, someone mentioned in relaity they would not hire minions but hire tough guys who can hang with the PCs... well in reality anyone who has a sword thrust through their guts is going to stop fighting after that one hit... I doubt you will find many people willing to take a gut shot, loose an arm, have their legs mangled and then finally stop fighting for you only once they are decapitated.
So truth be told :) Minions are more realistic :)
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And to be brutally honest, that is a lousy way to GM. If you are unable to create a meaningful encounter to begin with, maybe you should stick with playing a PC instead and leave GMing to someone elseExactly! Well said, Krome.
I was expecting to be flamed hard on that one...
and I really don't mean offense or mean to be demeaning when I say stuff like that either. Just realistic.
*prepares for flame throwers*
Literary concepts don't have levels, either though. The same Goblin or Level 1 Human warrior remains a plausible threat that will go down easy.
A Hill Giant is never a literary 'minion'.
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Do you award full XP for the minions?
That is my concern.
You can easily design them to be weaker so they are not a threat one on one, but become "plot devices."
That being the case, do you award full XP?
I would say no, and that is what I think should be addressed. That's all. A couple of lines about adjusting a critter down for XP, just like they discuss leveling a critter up for XP.
No. I don't like it. People can go and make up their own rules for it, if they have to, but keep it out of Pathfinder. Don't like it, doesn't make sense to me.
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Literary concepts don't have levels, either though. The same Goblin or Level 1 Human warrior remains a plausible threat that will go down easy.
A Hill Giant is never a literary 'minion'.
A hill giant in thrall to a Big Red Dragon is a minion when the PCs are all lvl 20 :)
The Big Red Dragon is a minion when in thrall to a Demigod... etc etc etc
depends upon the story
I'd like to see what people think about adding "minions" (from 4E, or some other variant) to Pathfinder. I personally like the concept of being able to add a good number of enemies to the fray, without overpowering the PCs. Either that or maybe some sort of template for monsters that makes them minions: 1 hp, decreased XP rewards, and so forth.
Ugh, please no. A great deal of the sense of progression and growth in a character comes from two things, first, being able to defeat opponents and overcome challenges you know were impossible once, and second, seeing the way the opponents and challenges you once were on par with slip slowly behind.
Using a "minion" type and easy advancement for a "boss" type the way 4e does cheapens the first extremely, and outright eliminates the second. You never get the chance to see Hobgoblins or gnolls go from terrifying opponents that can kill or disable a character in one hit, to the mass shock troops that can be dealt with in waves.
So you've gone from magic missile to fireball to cloudkill, but if you face nothing but contantly scaling enemies and minions that arbitrarily die in a stiff breeze, then the sense of surpassing old challenges never really comes into play.
A hill giant in thrall to a Big Red Dragon is a minion when the PCs are all lvl 20 :)
The Big Red Dragon is a minion when in thrall to a Demigod... etc etc etc
depends upon the story
But in those cases, the Giant and the Big Red Dragon still have more than one HP.
Ugh, please no. A great deal of the sense of progression and growth in a character comes from two things, first, being able to defeat opponents and overcome challenges you know were impossible once, and second, seeing the way the opponents and challenges you once were on par with slip slowly behind.
Using a "minion" type and easy advancement for a "boss" type the way 4e does cheapens the first extremely, and outright eliminates the second. You never get the chance to see Hobgoblins or gnolls go from terrifying opponents that can kill or disable a character in one hit, to the mass shock troops that can be dealt with in waves.
So you've gone from magic missile to fireball to cloudkill, but if you face nothing but contantly scaling enemies and minions that arbitrarily die in a stiff breeze, then the sense of surpassing old challenges never really comes into play.
Yes.
So you never would give levels to creatures to boost them?Well one of two things with your lich example. Either I need to go through every module and start planning to add in extras... or as a player I look at you funny, close my book get up and go home and let you play by yourself as I find another group.
Not a big fan of GMs doing the Deus ex Machina thing just to save their sorry butts. If it was part of the plan, part of the story, sure thing, but for a GM to just pull stuff out his butt cause he feels like it is a sure fire way to loose players.
And to be brutally honest, that is a lousy way to GM. If you are unable to create a meaningful encounter to begin with, maybe you should stick with playing a PC instead and leave GMing to someone else.
Sure, I like a leveled Kobold Ninja as much as the next guy but just saying a majoity of creatures of X type fall ina certain range, I don't wanna see 25 kobbolds when I'm 17th level but I like having the leveled on plaugeing the party.
I don;t remember if you were one of the "I like to wing it" DMs from up the thread but thats the same thing to me as far as throwing some fodder in. I could say "Well why would you ever put the BBEG in that spot to begin with. Not to get far off the minons topic but thats what I really dislike about 4e it makes for lazy DMs and Players. I can't count how many times I have seen comments saying the Simple is Better mantra.
A smart DM with a lich at his call can be prepared for almost any situation.
Im not offended, just saying thats one way to handle it and not nessesarly *my* way or the only way to. Its all good.
Ignatz
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Ahhh I see the objections and the way I see it is different than the way you guys are looking at it.
And my first example with the lich probably didn't help. The second one though, with the Succubus I actually looked at CRs and made.
See I don't want Orcs or goblins as minions at lvl 17
I would use critters who are within 3 levels of the PCs as my minions. They have only recently been overcome, and can still pose a real problem to PCs, especially in mass. However, for story I would want to reduce their effectiveness to drive the excitement and anticipation.
You see, by following the current rules you cannot ever reproduce the sheer excitement you get from a movie ending or from a book. In Fellowship of the Rings, the Fellowship is trapped in a tomb with hundreds of orcs coming. You can't do that in D&D. Either the scene is overwhelming, or the Orcs never pose any real challenge to begin with.
The rules, as is, limit the story. Like I said, to me the game should be story driven, not rules driven. Currently the rules limit the story that can be told. Why should they do that? If it is ok for the rules to limit the story, then the whole Pathfinder RPG movement is a waste of time. Just use the 3.5 rules and be done with it.
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I strongly would urge that no special "minion" rules be added. As previous posters have stated, it's easy to use some lower CR critters to have the shield wall effect for the actual opponents without artificially weakening them. Having a bunch of 1 hp minions drastically changes the balance of the encounter, for example, a magic missle spell from a 9th level caster now coudl kill 5 minions automatically, when it should probably only be able to kill 1 mook. Barbarians wouldn't have to waste rage points to achieve 1 hit kills, since any hit will do, save those rage points for only the "boss monsters", etc.
It would also greatly increase the power of area of effect spells: 1 fireball = no minions.
Just out of curiosity, how does 4e avoid the magic missle/fireball cleanup of minions? Are these spells so drastically changed that minions scoff at area effects in 4e?
I'm only asking because I like the mechanic of not caring about an enemy beyond the first time it takes damage, but you pose some legitimate questions about such a mechanic's usefulness in Pathfinder or 3.5.
You see, by following the current rules you cannot ever reproduce the sheer excitement you get from a movie ending or from a book. In Fellowship of the Rings, the Fellowship is trapped in a tomb with hundreds of orcs coming. You can't do that in D&D. Either the scene is overwhelming, or the Orcs never pose any real challenge to begin with.
In movies, you can somehow accept that the hero is threatened by random henchmen enough to be afraid of them, yet later take them all out without breaking a sweat. (i.e. James Bond will back down when threatened diplomatically with a handgun, but will run in front of men with machine guns with no fear.)
If that scene from the Fellowship were done in d20, we'd find that they never were actually threatened by the Orcs. They're too high level. They just acted threatened. And they knew that they might just be dragged down through sheer force of numbers if they stayed, so they ran.
One of the problems with minions is that it means you cannot evaluate the threat of an enemy. In RP terms, that's bad because a Hill Giant shouldn't magically get weaker because there's a boss monster around. But even for hack n' slash type groups, it's an issue because YOU CAN'T TELL WHEN TO RUN AWAY. If the stats of monsters can just change, it's hard to grasp what is threatening and what isn't.
I guess I just find managing HP for a few monsters less intrusive than rolling a save every time a creature takes damage. I find printing out the sheets and having check boxes for HP works quite well for large groups.What? No! I did not have a problem with comparing the damage total vs. the HP of the creature.
I have a problem with recording damage for 8+ creatures and remembering which one had which damage total.
I'm not sure how sheets are helpful to my problem. I have trouble remembering which damage total goes to which monster. In cases with different creatures I can just write their name by the damage total. If they are all the same monster I have trouble remember which one is Kobold #5 or Kobold #8. I've tried couple methods to solve this, but they have generally not helped a lot.
Why does it need to have the word 'minion' in it? By starting out the discussion referencing "I want XXXXX from 4e" you start out alienating a lot of people who don't want to have anything to do with forth edition.
I'm not going to dance around the subject by avoiding any word used in 4e. I feel that people that can't handle common words appearing in both games should get over it. 4e uses the word "wizard", PFRPG uses the word "wizard" as well. They are two different implementations of the same concept. Just because 4e uses the name "wizard" doesn't mean we should change the name of the "wizard" from PFRPG to "mage."
I don't want to encourage people to start screaming bloody murder if, later on, some Paizo product uses the name of a mythological creature that also appears in 4e.
Being in 4e does not mean I have to remove it from my vocabulary to avoid "alienating" anti-4e posters.
Words are in 4e. Many of those words were and still will be used around the world.
I would suggest you not start screaming bloody murder if while watching a movie you hear, "Minions. Attack!"
It also makes the assumption that people will instantly understand WTF you are talking about when many of us have not read the 4th edition rules.
Right, but my intent is to make a version of minions that doesn't require any knowledge of the 4e Rules. The minion rules are just a concept that I like and would like to see transplanted into Pathfinder.
I didn't really feel that knowledge of 4e minion mechanics were nessarry to understand me. From the first post in this thread I felt I made it clear that I wanted to see something different from 4e for Pathfinder minions. I would just like to easily be able to handle the concept of (ninja) minions in Pathfinder.
Maybe a better approach would have been to talk about the general idea of improving combat with large groups of critters then present some of the ideas in question.
Maybe, but I did not start the thread.
You see, by following the current rules you cannot ever reproduce the sheer excitement you get from a movie ending or from a book. In Fellowship of the Rings, the Fellowship is trapped in a tomb with hundreds of orcs coming. You can't do that in D&D. Either the scene is overwhelming, or the Orcs never pose any real challenge to begin with.
Actually, you can if you remember the source a bit better. The fellowship didn't fight all that many orcs in the actual tomb before they decided to bug out rather than be trapped (plus, the balrog was coming). If you look at them as knowing there were hundreds around, they come to the realization that "this dozen or so we took out were pretty tough, if we get trapped by hundreds we're screwed."
But even if the rules somehow did really get in the way of telling the story, that doesn't mean that PF is a waste of time. Improvement of the 3.5 rules is never a waste of time.
I strongly would urge that no special "minion" rules be added. As previous posters have stated, it's easy to use some lower CR critters to have the shield wall effect for the actual opponents without artificially weakening them. Having a bunch of 1 hp minions drastically changes the balance of the encounter, for example, a magic missle spell from a 9th level caster now coudl kill 5 minions automatically, when it should probably only be able to kill 1 mook. Barbarians wouldn't have to waste rage points to achieve 1 hit kills, since any hit will do, save those rage points for only the "boss monsters", etc.
It would also greatly increase the power of area of effect spells: 1 fireball = no minions.
Just out of curiosity, how does 4e avoid the magic missle/fireball cleanup of minions? Are these spells so drastically changed that minions scoff at area effects in 4e?
I'm only asking because I like the mechanic of not caring about an enemy beyond the first time it takes damage, but you pose some legitimate questions about such a mechanic's usefulness in Pathfinder or 3.5.
Damaging abilities require attack rolls for each target (even for magic missile or fireball). If it misses the minion doesn't take damage (like evasion), they only take die on a hit.
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If that scene from the Fellowship were done in d20, we'd find that they never were actually threatened by the Orcs. They're too high level. They just acted threatened. And they knew that they might just be dragged down through sheer force of numbers if they stayed, so they ran.
And that example is what bugs me a little. Each and every Orc 'minion' can inflict the same damage as a normal Orc in it's measly second of life, and, if one is using *hordes* of minions in place of standard Orcs, the horde of minions is going to be *more* likely to get Critical Hits that do damage all out of proportion to their 'threat level.'
The Minion is only taken down in one respect, hit points, and that changes the balance. Non-damaging spells, which include some of the best 'room-sweepers' lose their shine, as everyone searches their spell-lists for spells that do tiny little drabs of damage to large areas. (I researched a new spell! I call it Minionbane, it affects a 100' radius around me and does 2 hp damage, 1 if you save.)
If Minions couldn't get Criticals, couldn't use Poisons, couldn't use Save or Dies or Save or Loses (not even Daze cantrips that could completely shut down a character for a round), then perhaps the mechanic could be useful, but there's a *whole* lotta work that has to be done, IMO, before the mechanic is usable.
The important thing for any rule change, IMO, is whether or not it adds 'fun' to the game.
The first time a group of characters are utterly wiped out by Minions who happened to get a few unlikely Crits, or because a PC blew a save spectacularly, and one of the players says, 'We just got butchered by mobs that aren't even worth Experience to us.', it's going to add only frustration. While this hasn't happened in AD&D for us (because there are no Minion rules pre-4E), all of my players have played enough online games to have a fiery loathing for 'useless' encounters where the monsters are 'grey' and don't give experience or drop loot or whatever, but are still dangerous or consume resources. Mobs you have to 'grind' for faction or 'kill 30 X' quests, where the mobs are no longer worth experience. It doesn't feel like you are accomplishing anything, just wasting time that you could be spending on encounters that are fun and meaningful and challenging.
Minions, to me, feel a lot like 'grey mobs.'
If such a thing is called for, say, in a superhero game, where the Mighty Spew can incapacitate a dozen mooks with his nauseating expectorate, that's a different genre, and doesn't require specific rules, so much as a GM who says, 'fine, they all start retching and are out of combat. Move on.' (And, in this case, Minion rules might not even help, since the attack isn't a damaging attack. Sleep spells and Color Sprays are no more effective against Minions than against normal Orcs and Goblins, after all. Suddenly, the most effective room-clearing spells become your last choice, because you're fighting Minions, who are 'weak' to hit point damage, and you'd be better off sweeping the room with a Burning Hands, since even those who roll 20 on their save are going to take half-damage and die a horrible death, which, most likely, they would have anyway, even if they weren't Minions...)
I'm not going to dance around the subject by avoiding any word used in 4e.
I agree. I also know you didn't start the thread. Nevertheless the OP started:
I'd like to see what people think about adding "minions" (from 4E, or some other variant) to Pathfinder.
Personally, I could care less whether something comes from 4e or not. I was just pointing out that when a conversation is started on these forums in that way that it is bound to follow a certain course.
(because there are no Minion rules pre-4E)
I disagree. While they didn't have a title of minion in their stat block, the standard 3.5 kobold could be describe as a minion. And they could wipe out a 3rd level party just because of a few unlikely crits. This is not something new with 4e. Parties could lose to "easy" and "unimportant" encounters due to being unlucky before it came along.
So let me ask you guys this then, when you design an encounter say like the one I used earier, and you go ahead and scale the HP of the orcs down (since we have always been able to do that) would you go ahead and award full XP fo fighting all 20 Orcs, and would you award full XP for fighting the reduced HP ogres?
Well actually I don't scale their HP down generally, usually what I do is leave them at a lower level and scale up their ability to be a threat. I guess it amounts to the same thing but the effect is different. For example giving an orc warrior 2 as more HP than an orc barbarian 1 but is less of a threat so I would send in the orc barbarian 1. Similarly I would given them good offensive options where they can actually hit the PCs weapon focus etc.
I'll have to try an encounter out and see what it's like with some paper thin enemies. Personally I think maybe 1/2 to 1/4 experience for the paper enemies.
Or, do you just make an encounter with the lich and add at most one or two helpers like most people do?
I've run both. I like big encounters with lots of creatures. My group is playing this weekend I think so I'll try and cook something like this up.
Non-damaging spells, which include some of the best 'room-sweepers' lose their shine, as everyone searches their spell-lists for spells that do tiny little drabs of damage to large areas. (I researched a new spell! I call it Minionbane, it affects a 100' radius around me and does 2 hp damage, 1 if you save.)
This is a really good point.
*Raises hand*
Umm...I've been doing a "minion" style effect for a long time. Specifically, I made a template I called "Fanatic". It's tied to a "Leader" creature (the actuall BBEG most often). Fanatic creatures gain a bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the Leader's CR. They also gain this bonus on any save made against a charm or compulsion effect that would require them to go against their leader's wishes. They gain a bonus on any special attack/spell DCs equal to half the Leader's CR (minimum 1).
If not within 100 feat of their leader, minions only gain half of these benefits (still minimum 1). If within 10 feet of their leader and their leader is below half of his HP (I also have been using a pain threshold mechanic similar to 4e's bloodied. I been using it longer though) the fanatic creature gains double the normal bonus.
I have the template add 1 to the CR of the leader, assuming a reasonable number of minions (20-50 is about right, just not all at once). This does a good job of representing the extra power, but prevents having to deal with a CR modification to a creature so low relative to the PCs that even with a boost it wont give any XP.
This works awesome. I describe the creatures as looking particularily fanatical to their behavior or appearance, and my PCs take them seriously, regardless of what their gear looks like (often an obvious indicator of class/level). When the standard MM kobolds in service to the CR 10 red dragon can make attacks with a +5 bonus to attack and damage, most PCs take note, especially when a small spear does almost 10 points of damage. The sorceror debates using a fireball instead of just letting the fighter mow through them.
This also helps to slow down the XP progression as it makes several fights with weak(er) creatures that don't grant XP, which my group personally likes. I just roll treasure appropriate to the leader's adjusted CR, which usually fills any versimilitude gaps like "where are all the cultists loot?" With the leader, duh.
Anyhow, this works great in my games, so I give my stamp of approval for this sort of a minion mechanic. But I agree, just say No to 1hp minions.
I've been doing a "minion" style effect for a long time. Specifically, I made a template I called "Fanatic". It's tied to a "Leader" creature (the actuall BBEG most often).
Now this is clever. 4e can use the Minions. But with PfRPG, we use templates that explain why & how they are 'minions' and have different type of minions. BBs example of a Leader with Fanatics is excellent. It also explains behavior, such as a willingness to die. This is too cool. Can anyone think of other rationals to make different type of minions?
EDIT: After glancing through the 4e rules the rational only seems to be: Minions should go down fast so Pcs can chop through them. A quick gander at the 4e MM gives me these ideas; Thralls for Aboleth, Mind Flayers and Vampires. These guys might have a bonus for fanatism. And maybe 'Green Recruit' for inexperienced Warriors. They might run for it after one hit.
Personally I like the idea of minions, but I don't always like the implementation of minions. I don't see any point at all in creating minion entries in a monster book. Instead, I feel that they are best addressed in a sidebar as an optional rule. Basically, if you want to use them, all you have to do is to take a monster that is up to four CRs lower than the main baddies in the encounter, use up to ten of them at a time, and have them die with one hit. There is no reason to further define them in the game, in my opinion. They aren't usually the basis for a full encounter, although the can be, and they don't need special entries.
Another reason for minions might have to do with getting rid of iterative attacks. Since iterative attacks erode so rapidly (-5 per attack) they are usually only good against lower CR creatures or if you are dang lucky. Iterative attacks seem to be 'for cinematic combat where PCs hack through scores of attackers'. So maybe give the Minion template a vulnerability that allows a character to get a 5' step and a free attack if you kill a 'Minion'. (This obvious needs play testing. I am still trying to figure out whether I should have let a PC use Cleave to keep cutting off a Hydra's heads. The Hydra did not last long.)
I made a template I called "Fanatic". It's tied to a "Leader" creature (the actuall BBEG most often). Fanatic creatures gain a bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the Leader's CR. They also gain this bonus on any save made against a charm or compulsion effect that would require them to go against their leader's wishes. They gain a bonus on any special attack/spell DCs equal to half the Leader's CR (minimum 1).
I like this idea a lot. Though maybe it's a bit too powerful when you start talking about CR 10 creatures. Suddenly filling the field with 20 kobolds who are doing +10 to hit and damage... erm that's rough. Worse, a red dragon with 20 fanatical ogre followers, really rough.
I might adopt something like this and cap it at a max of +5 with no damage bonus.
So I ran a session with 'minions', in this case just lizardmen with 5 HP versus a 7th level PC party. I didn't do anything to boost their lethality but the party was in canoes and the lizardmen were capsizing the canoes so the party was really interested in killing them off. I didn't do much to modify the lizardmen other than reduce their HP a bit so I didn't have to track HP. If lizards got hit for less than 5hp I marked the damage on the battlemat next to mini.
What was frustrating is the parties reaction to this was to summon low level creatures to combat them while they focused on killing the main enemies. So rather than simplifying combat it actually made combat an even bigger mess. 4e sidesteps this altogether by not letting you summon creatures.
"Uh Oh, minions, deploy the counter minion measures"
Actually it was a blast. A little time consuming though.
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But in those cases, the Giant and the Big Red Dragon still have more than one HP.A hill giant in thrall to a Big Red Dragon is a minion when the PCs are all lvl 20 :)
The Big Red Dragon is a minion when in thrall to a Demigod... etc etc etc
depends upon the story
*I* never once said anything about 1 hp... where does that come from?
*I* never once said anything about 1 hp... where does that come from?
It comes from the topic of discussion. If you meant that the Hill giants fit the English-language meaning of minions, then you are correct. What I was saying is that they should never fit the 4E meaning of minions, which is what is being discussed.
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If that scene from the Fellowship were done in d20, we'd find that they never were actually threatened by the Orcs. They're too high level. They just acted threatened. And they knew that they might just be dragged down through sheer force of numbers if they stayed, so they ran.And that example is what bugs me a little. Each and every Orc 'minion' can inflict the same damage as a normal Orc in it's measly second of life, and, if one is using *hordes* of minions in place of standard Orcs, the horde of minions is going to be *more* likely to get Critical Hits that do damage all out of proportion to their 'threat level.'
The Minion is only taken down in one respect, hit points, and that changes the balance. Non-damaging spells, which include some of the best 'room-sweepers' lose their shine, as everyone searches their spell-lists for spells that do tiny little drabs of damage to large areas. (I researched a new spell! I call it Minionbane, it affects a 100' radius around me and does 2 hp damage, 1 if you save.)
If Minions couldn't get Criticals, couldn't use Poisons, couldn't use Save or Dies or Save or Loses (not even Daze cantrips that could completely shut down a character for a round), then perhaps the mechanic could be useful, but there's a *whole* lotta work that has to be done, IMO, before the mechanic is usable.
The important thing for any rule change, IMO, is whether or not it adds 'fun' to the game.
The first time a group of characters are utterly wiped out by Minions who happened to get a few unlikely Crits, or because a PC blew a save spectacularly, and one of the players says, 'We just got butchered by mobs that aren't even worth Experience to us.', it's going to add only frustration. While this hasn't happened in AD&D for us (because there are no Minion rules pre-4E), all of my players have played enough online games to have a fiery loathing for 'useless' encounters where the monsters are 'grey' and don't give experience or drop loot or whatever,...
so instead of saying in cannot be done you just listed some problems with "minions" Let's find a way to overcome the problems. That isn't too much of a challenge is it?
And IF 3.x is supposed to be the game of opportunites, variety, and being able to do what you want to do, why then limit it and say "But, you cannot do this." If you don't want minions in your game, you don't use that option. If other people DO want minions in their games, why should you prevent them from having them?
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Non-damaging spells, which include some of the best 'room-sweepers' lose their shine, as everyone searches their spell-lists for spells that do tiny little drabs of damage to large areas. (I researched a new spell! I call it Minionbane, it affects a 100' radius around me and does 2 hp damage, 1 if you save.)This is a really good point.
But it fixes a "Major Problem" for spell casters who reach higher levels. People keep complaining that their lower level spells are of no real use.
Here is a use of lower level spells. A nice easy fix for the spell caster delimna.
And the reaction is "but they'll just use low level spells"
That makes no sense at all. None.
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*Raises hand*
Umm...I've been doing a "minion" style effect for a long time. Specifically, I made a template I called "Fanatic". It's tied to a "Leader" creature (the actuall BBEG most often). Fanatic creatures gain a bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the Leader's CR. They also gain this bonus on any save made against a charm or compulsion effect that would require them to go against their leader's wishes. They gain a bonus on any special attack/spell DCs equal to half the Leader's CR (minimum 1).
If not within 100 feat of their leader, minions only gain half of these benefits (still minimum 1). If within 10 feet of their leader and their leader is below half of his HP (I also have been using a pain threshold mechanic similar to 4e's bloodied. I been using it longer though) the fanatic creature gains double the normal bonus.
I have the template add 1 to the CR of the leader, assuming a reasonable number of minions (20-50 is about right, just not all at once). This does a good job of representing the extra power, but prevents having to deal with a CR modification to a creature so low relative to the PCs that even with a boost it wont give any XP.
This works awesome. I describe the creatures as looking particularily fanatical to their behavior or appearance, and my PCs take them seriously, regardless of what their gear looks like (often an obvious indicator of class/level). When the standard MM kobolds in service to the CR 10 red dragon can make attacks with a +5 bonus to attack and damage, most PCs take note, especially when a small spear does almost 10 points of damage. The sorceror debates using a fireball instead of just letting the fighter mow through them.
This also helps to slow down the XP progression as it makes several fights with weak(er) creatures that don't grant XP, which my group personally likes. I just roll treasure appropriate to the leader's adjusted CR, which usually fills any versimilitude gaps like "where are all the cultists loot?" With the leader, duh.
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AWESOME! Finally something constructive!
I really like this option a lot. WIll have to try it out.
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So I ran a session with 'minions', in this case just lizardmen with 5 HP versus a 7th level PC party. I didn't do anything to boost their lethality but the party was in canoes and the lizardmen were capsizing the canoes so the party was really interested in killing them off. I didn't do much to modify the lizardmen other than reduce their HP a bit so I didn't have to track HP. If lizards got hit for less than 5hp I marked the damage on the battlemat next to mini.
What was frustrating is the parties reaction to this was to summon low level creatures to combat them while they focused on killing the main enemies. So rather than simplifying combat it actually made combat an even bigger mess. 4e sidesteps this altogether by not letting you summon creatures.
"Uh Oh, minions, deploy the counter minion measures"
Actually it was a blast. A little time consuming though.
Thanks :) See that really helps so we have an idea where to take this thing. Off the top of my head I have no real solution to that. Wish I had.
Dennis you're a smart guy, come up with something :)
Dennis you're a smart guy, come up with something :)
Me? Obviously I have someone fooled. I'll try and cook up a leader template based on what The Black Bard suggested above. I'm thinking a bonus to attack roles that maxes out at +5 and a -2HP/ HD penalty. It would be an NPC only feat... hrm. I'll think about it over lunch and be back in a minute.
The minion counter measures issue is a larger issue which I'm not sure how to deal with. It's mostly just an issue inherent in the summoning spells rather than minion specific. Maybe a minion cancellation rule... when a minion strikes a counter minion they explode.
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Dennis you're a smart guy, come up with something :)Me? Obviously I have someone fooled. I'll try and cook up a leader template based on what The Black Bard suggested above. I'm thinking a bonus to attack roles that maxes out at +5 and a -2HP/ HD penalty. It would be an NPC only feat... hrm. I'll think about it over lunch and be back in a minute.
The minion counter measures issue is a larger issue which I'm not sure how to deal with. It's mostly just an issue inherent in the summoning spells rather than minion specific. Maybe a minion cancellation rule... when a minion strikes a counter minion they explode.
Ohhh that would be so cool... exploding minions all over the place!
While I like the use of minions I do not want it to be something that bogs down the action and has no real affect on the fight. I personally have no ideas at the moment (course I am also really pissed at another thread and all-people have no sense of humor).
Dennis you're a smart guy, come up with something :)Me? Obviously I have someone fooled. I'll try and cook up a leader template based on what The Black Bard suggested above. I'm thinking a bonus to attack roles that maxes out at +5 and a -2HP/ HD penalty. It would be an NPC only feat... hrm. I'll think about it over lunch and be back in a minute.
The minion counter measures issue is a larger issue which I'm not sure how to deal with. It's mostly just an issue inherent in the summoning spells rather than minion specific. Maybe a minion cancellation rule... when a minion strikes a counter minion they explode.
Ohhh that would be so cool... exploding minions all over the place!
While I like the use of minions I do not want it to be something that bogs down the action and has no real affect on the fight. I personally have no ideas at the moment (course I am also really pissed at another thread and all-people have no sense of humor).
Been there with you Krome. Kinda like youth is wasted on the young, humor is wasted on the _______.
As for the minion vs. minion complication maybe the BBEG has a suppress other minion summoning feat while in its lair. Or the lair itself has a fear effect, hampering non-aligned creatures. As cool as the minion vs minion exploding combat might be it still nukes the reason they're in there in the 1st place.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I'm not a big fan of giving boss monsters the ability to effectively have a buff aura that boosts their minion just because. Making it a feat would be better than just saying all bosses get this, but my big concern would be making it better than options available to PCs. It shouldn't be better (or even as good as) a bard's inspire courage ability, or else bards will ask if they can get the minion inspiring ability instead. It also should be something that is available to PCs - if they take the leadership feat and can have a squad of their own minions, why shouldn't they be able to do the same minion buffing stuff as an NPC leader?
What might be more balanced would be an Inspire Follower feat that had Leadership as a pre-requisite. It's bonus could be the same as the bardic inspire courage bonus, at the character's level minus three, and it would automatically affect all followers (not cohorts) that were within LOS of the leader.
Ok, here is a shot. It is a template rather than a feat. For better or worse this means the players will generally not be able to use it. The idea here is creatures in a group pool their resources and instead of getting an attack each they make a single attack which is modified based on how many creatures are in the pack.
Pack Template
Size and Type
Creatures with the pack template gain the pack subtype. All creatures in a single pack must be of the same race and if they have any class levels they must be of the same class. A pack can consist of any number of creatures who are adjacent to each other. A creature can only belong to a single pack at a time. Creatures with the pack template can change packs as a free action during their turn.
Hit Dice and Hit Points
Creatures in a pack have 2 hit points/ level fewer than the base creature to a minimum of 1 hit point/ level.
Base Attack/Combat Modifier Bonus
Same as the base creature. Plus see below "pack bonus" under special qualities.
Damage
Same as the base creature. Plus see below "pack bonus" under special qualities.
Special Qualities
As a standard action a creature in a pack can grant any single creature in the pack a pack bonus. The pack bonus gives +1 to all attack combat maneuver, and damage rolls. Pack bonuses stack but the maximum pack bonus any single creature can have is +10.
Base Saves
same as the base creature.
Skills
same as the base creature.
Feats
same as the base creature.
Environment
same as the base creature.
Organization
same as the base creature.
Challenge Rating
same as the base creature.
Treasure
same as the base creature.
Alignment
same as the base creature.
Advancement
Per base creature.
Level Adjustment
????
Ok, it's REALLY rough. I called it the pack template because it seems like it would be useful for any group of lower level critters you wanted to threaten the party with regardless of whether there was a Boss creature around. The idea is creatures that individually are not a threat are as a group. One thing I see is weak about it is creatures must be adjacent to each other.
Incidentally I deliberately made it so you can have creatures of multiple levels so you can have a lieutenant attacking the party as part of the pack.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Ok, here is a shot. It is a template rather than a feat. For better or worse this means the players will generally not be able to use it. The idea here is creatures in a group pool their resources and instead of getting an attack each they make a single attack which is modified based on how many creatures are in the pack.
Pack Template
This doesn't seem too different from the existing aid another rules, just a different way to get to the same place.
I have played the new 4th Edition D&D. It was designed with one thing in mind. To capture a younger clientele that would normally be playing video games. Minions turn a low level encounter into a potential deathtrap for PC's , that's why they changed the rules to give out more HP. And finally minions and certain other rule changes WotC made for D&D turned the game into a mostly combat table top version of a video game or a cheap table top copy of World of War Craft. Now no matter how you slice it, RPG stands for Role Playing Game. That means it's about the experience and the comaraderie of getting together and sitting down at the table and playing/problem solving through situations and dungeons. Not playing toy soldiers. If you want a table top war game or board game then play 4th Edition D&D. If you want an RPG then play Pathfinder. It is quickly becoming the new "D&D" among the players I know. We started with the First Edition and Second Edition and stayed faithful...until the 4Th Edition. It's not an RPG anymore, it's just a faster paced combat table top simulation. Yes a DM can change that, but why should he have to? He has enough to deal with without unmaking a bad product. If the DM can't spend game play time making the story the main part of D&D then it just isn't D&D anymore. Enough said.
I'd like to see what people think about adding "minions" (from 4E, or some other variant) to Pathfinder. I personally like the concept of being able to add a good number of enemies to the fray, without overpowering the PCs. Either that or maybe some sort of template for monsters that makes them minions: 1 hp, decreased XP rewards, and so forth.
Thanks!
Just my two cents: I'm using "Minions" (from an original Feng Shui RPG mechanic) since 2 years in my homebrew d20 RPG, and it worked frickin' well. I hope they include it in the game.
Not playing toy soldiers. If you want a table top war game or board game then play 4th Edition D&D.
No arguments from this corner. I do think there is occasionally a need to shortcut on mechanics for a specific task. That is all I'm suggesting.
This doesn't seem too different from the existing aid another rules, just a different way to get to the same place.
Indeed it is quite similar. On the other hand it eliminates roles, adds to damage, and does not require everyone to be adjacent to the PC. It also allows for helping with missile attacks where aid another only helps with melee where the helper is adjacent to the PC.