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From another thread ...
Let's see.. i think the word I'm looking for is b&@@##*!? What IS it with you guys and the need to lie constantly to 'prove your point' about 4E's greatness all the time? Don't you realize that it just makes 4E look worse overall?
I am more than willing to discuss 4e with you or anyone else that wants to post here but I am really tired of being called a liar, practicing intellectual dishonesty, and worse.
This board was turning a corner and heading for a much more civil tone when this crap started to fly.
Oh, and BTW this insult was hurled at both David Marks and me.
The name calling and attitude are unacceptable. And totally uncalled for.
As for the reason for the disagreements, it seems to me two things are happening, based on which side of the coin you fall on...
For 4E supporters, and this is a broad generalization, 4E is the best and if something is not right, it is generally answered with a "It's coming", "You can house-rule that", or "It makes things so much faster".
For 3.5 supporters, and this is also a broad generalization, 3.5 is the best and if something is "broken". it is generally answered with a "It's the history of the game", "There's so much more customization", and "At least it's not a MMORPG based system".
Both sides are invested in their game, and rightly so. We're all passionate about our hobby. The least amount of provocation, from either side, makes people want to leap for the ramparts and defend their choice.
Grow up people. I don't care that CWM is pro-4E and I'm not. I just like the friendly debating. I'm not going to change his mind and he's not going to change mine.
The edition wars are OVER. Everyone won.
If you like 4E, you have WotC and whatever 3PP chooses to join that cause.
If you like 3.5, you have 8 years worth of material to mine and a company here that produces the most amazing material you can imagine.
Everyone wins. Go forth and play what you want. Leave the mudslinging to the presidential race...
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There's some dishonesty on all sides, here.
Not ever conceding any point because this or that edition can do no wrong, or because whatever the opponents say is wrong and "must be corrected at all costs", even the most blatant intellectual dishonesty and rhetoric, does not help ANY friendly debate either.
Like someone said already: Grow up, people. It's not because you concede a point and/or shut up and bow gracefully out of a conversation that suddenly you'd look foolish. It makes you look mature because it's hard to do so and swallow your ego. Nuance.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't stop and take a breather every once in a while, but it's time for you to really understand this particular point, CWM, and be willing to compromise or concede on more than rare occasions. Nobody, nobody's asking you to give up on 4E, CWM. Stop feeling personally threatened every time someone somewhere criticizes it.
You're not a paladin on his last stand. We're not the army of undead wanting to put you down. We're all friends here! I like you when you're not being a dick! Stop the drama, please.
Drama tends to follow people who start it. Starting a brand new thread to complain about drama in another thread is just enhancing the drama.
Old internet trick. I should know better by now.
Just human nature. Best thing to do with escalation of drama is always to look at it, shake one's head and say "not for me, thanks, not today."
;)
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I am more than willing to discuss 4e with you or anyone else that wants to post here but I am really tired of being called a liar, practicing intellectual dishonesty, and worse.
This board was turning a corner and heading for a much more civil tone when this crap started to fly.
Oh, and BTW this insult was hurled at both David Marks and me.
can I say that goes for the pathfinder board as well? I've seen folks come in and crapping on things....
Oh, and BTW this insult was hurled at both David Marks and me.I'll be frank here. You seem to have no problem being insulting and condescending when it suits your purposes. You seem to have no problem actually lying, distorting posts, etc, in order to defend 4E. After about 20 posts, I admit, I lost patience and called a spade a 'spade'.
I understand that you like the game, but you are the one who's placed your love of the game over the feelings and interests of your fellow fans.
You're right that I probably should have found a better way to express that frustration than I did. But, in truth, I find it hard to be apologetic about that frustration, particularly when you're going to start a new thread specifically to single me out and claim the martyr card.
To be fair to CWM, Vance, you were very antagonistic in the Mearls on Many Things thread. You lied, distorted reality, condescended and accused people (me, for instance) of being shills for WotC simply for posting normal comments in the thread. You may find it hard to be apologetic, but when you make posts inside a thread that admit that you are trying to be abrasive (as you did), and that you sometimes can't tell when you've really bothered people (as you did) maybe you should apologize, no matter how hard you find it to be.
I'll be frank here.
Please don't be frank. Be CourtFool. He's a much better role-model.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!
Would you like some cheese with that?
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Personal rule of thumb: Reply by internet as if you were replying face-to-face to someone you knew and cared about. It feels good when you do it.
I wish everyone actually knew or cared to know how to be civil in real life. But frankly, humanity has proven itself beyond that capability in general (but don't get me wrong, many people are good people).
And I'm not directing this post at anyone on the boards, just at people I meet in real life.
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There's some dishonesty on all sides, here.
Not ever conceding any point because this or that edition can do no wrong, or because whatever the opponents say is wrong and "must be corrected at all costs", even the most blatant intellectual dishonesty and rhetoric, does not help ANY friendly debate either.
Like someone said already: Grow up, people. It's not because you concede a point and/or shut up and bow gracefully out of a conversation that suddenly you'd look foolish. It makes you look mature because it's hard to do so and swallow your ego. Nuance.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't stop and take a breather every once in a while, but it's time for you to really understand this particular point, CWM, and be willing to compromise or concede on more than rare occasions. Nobody, nobody's asking you to give up on 4E, CWM. Stop feeling personally threatened every time someone somewhere criticizes it.
You're not a paladin on his last stand. We're not the army of undead wanting to put you down. We're all friends here! I like you when you're not being a dick! Stop the drama, please.
... and if you have been following any of the threads I post in you will find that I have some harsh criticisms of 4e. The game is nowhere near perfect.
But I have never lied here. Not once. I have conceded points when a truly valid counterpoint is made.
I do not feel personally threatened when anyone questions my opinion but I do feel personally insulted when I am called a liar and intellectually dishonest.
Why can't we just have a discussion that does not degenerate into the hurling of personal attacks?
Why can't we just have a discussion that does not degenerate into the hurling of personal attacks?
Because you created an entire thread designed to encourage people to choose your "side" or someone else's? You sow it, you reap. Drama clings to people who generate it.
It doesn't matter who "starts" drama, because someone always will. Learn to defuse it and move on without generating more, because otherwise it will continue to be cyclical and expansive.
Just my $0.02, take it for what it's worth.
<facepalm>
To CWM:
CWM please take the hint, there is never gonna be a civil 4E discussion on the Paizo 4E forums. Just do like I did, move to gentler grounds, and just poke your head once or twice here at most.
This has gone for the past months nonstop. I congratulate you on your mental stamina to withstand so much crap the 4E hate has regurgitated here, but for your sanity's sake just walk away. There is no reasoning, there is no compromise, there is no actual hope of reaching a civil conversation.
It's sad that such a wonderful community will be marred by a few antagonists, that only come into a 4E forum to threadcrap and insult people. But this is the way it is and frankly I see no hope for change.
It's sad that this forum isn't more strictly moderated.
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OK, I've just flicked through this thread, more for looking-at-car-crash-thrills than anything else. However, this sprang to mind
On the one hand, CWM, I really suggest you stop trying to patrol the boards. It is someone else's job - if you have a complaint, email someone at Paizo, don't go antagonistically public with it.
On the other hand, Vance, the Razz-style frothing hostility to 4e is tedious, and a little old. 4e is here, it isn't going away, and WotC doesn't care what you think. And I don't care if people are twisting your pretty pointless tirades - you made your point weeks ago. You achieve nothing with these rants. Leave the 4e threads to people who do like it and wish to talk constructively about it.
And everyone - lighten up! Jeez, we all enjoy the same hobby, let's stop ripping chunks out of eachother over pointless theological debates which will have absolutely no impact on the outcomes.
And, in the spirit of the times, I am telling you that am leaving this thread. That is important for you to know.
I hate it when we all fight. Think of the children!
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Well, officially, I've gone, but...
When did you get banned, exactly?
I didn't obviously, but that's effectively what you're asking for isn't it?
Besides, you're also blithely ignoring the amount of hatred spewed at anyone who doesn't like something about 4E. Personal attacks, condescention, etc, are the NORM for a lot of the posts here.. yet those are 'okay' by the standards presented because... they're '4E supporters'.
I've probably spent too much energy on this thread, which, itself, was just an example of hateful trolling by 'one side of the battlefield'. But I think it's telling that so many think it's OKAY to be the 'Editionistas' and use such tactics while decrying the 'other side' (as determined BY the Editionistas) for even remotely being negative.
I'm not angry by this thread, I find it amusing and quite telling really.
vance,
The problem is that you SOUND angry. In fact, you often sound like you're fully into a bout of Banner-level nerdrage. Moderating how you get your point across and treating the person you're talking to as a reasonable person with a different view rather than a liar and shill would help a lot in getting people to take you seriously.Equally, the pro-4E people could tone down the condescension and martyr complex, just a little bit. Not everyone who dislikes 4E is a fool or wants to kick your dog because you do.
In other words, will everyone please grow up and remember this is supposed to be a discussion of a fun hobby, not the Inquisition! And like Aubrey, I am now officially leaving this thread.
Would you like some cheese with that?
I like chocolate milk!
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I didn't obviously, but that's effectively what you're asking for isn't it?Well, officially, I've gone, but...
When did you get banned, exactly?
Er, no, actually.
That said, intellectual honesty and just plain disagreeing with you might not be as easily distinguishable as you think. Frankly, with all the kerfuffle that went around with the PFRPG/3P or whatever the acronym is now, I get a little tired (and maybe other people do too) of being talked down to by game designers (or, in Frank's case, former game designers - just needed to get that dig in). I'm not saying you are, since I haven't really been in conversation with you before. But what also strikes me is that almost every time a 4e thread comes up, you appear with something negative to say (I tend not to post, but I do lurk there).
Maybe you are right - but who gives a s#%#? Because, as you say, WotC have done what they have done and there isn't much anyone of us can do about it. It is more or less out of the hands of the designers (for better or, more likely, worse) and in the hands of marketing and accounts. And anyway, WotC has to produce a mass market game, not a niche product like Pathfinder, so they have their own pressures. I personally think the GSL is shooting themselves in the foot, but then I don't have access to their data, and the OGL was never (no matter how much we might wish to sanctify Ryan Dancey) an altruistic act - WotC just couldn't be arsed to write adventures for purely commercial reasons, and wanted a few chumps to do it for them, at much lower margins.
Intellectual honesty is grossly overrated - so don't ram it down people's throats. Especially as it frequently turns into an excuse for "I'm much cleverer than you - here's why". That tends to piss people off.
Just saying.
And I really am gone now.
From another thread ...
Let's see.. i think the word I'm looking for is b&@@##*!? What IS it with you guys and the need to lie constantly to 'prove your point' about 4E's greatness all the time? Don't you realize that it just makes 4E look worse overall?I am more than willing to discuss 4e with you or anyone else that wants to post here but I am really tired of being called a liar, practicing intellectual dishonesty, and worse.
This board was turning a corner and heading for a much more civil tone when this crap started to fly.
Oh, and BTW this insult was hurled at both David Marks and me.
And people say I'm the bad guy. At least one would be hard pressed to find a post by me ever insulting anyone here directly. You might find one or two slight jabs, but almost everyone here is guilty of that to an extent.
Though I can empathize with Vance's feelings, I do agree he stepped over the line and that was rather uncalled for.
Well, officially, I've gone, but...
When did you get banned, exactly?
I didn't obviously, but that's effectively what you're asking for isn't it?
Besides, you're also blithely ignoring the amount of hatred spewed at anyone who doesn't like something about 4E. Personal attacks, condescention, etc, are the NORM for a lot of the posts here.. yet those are 'okay' by the standards presented because... they're '4E supporters'.
I've probably spent too much energy on this thread, which, itself, was just an example of hateful trolling by 'one side of the battlefield'. But I think it's telling that so many think it's OKAY to be the 'Editionistas' and use such tactics while decrying the 'other side' (as determined BY the Editionistas) for even remotely being negative.
I'm not angry by this thread, I find it amusing and quite telling really.
Hey I agree with you 100% on the issue, but I try my best to not go too overboard because it really is a losing battle and the minute an insult is thrown, all civility flies out the window, along with any dignity, on the person who made the first attack.
It'd be best to take a break from any forum that talks about D&D, like I am, and I only throw in a opinion here or there (of course, only to watch the supporters start an immediate "flame war"). Which is why I have been looking for an anti-4e forum lately, a forum where one can criticize 4e to the depths of Hell and not have to worry about getting banned or hated for it.
Heck, as you can already see, someone wants to start a flame-war already a couple posts above mine. Sad, I know.
Ummm ... okay ... would this be an appropriate time for a comic-thread-jacking?
Get outta that thread! GET OUT!
I'll do it! Get out of that thread! You're being comic-thread jacked, fool!
I guess I never adapted well to nuances of the internet. :)
Adapt to this nuance, bay-bee! Ayyyyyyy! Oooooooooooh!
Hemme... hemme... someone hemme...
Ummm ... okay ... would this be an appropriate time for a comic-thread-jacking?
Get outta that thread! GET OUT!
I'll do it! Get out of that thread! You're being comic-thread jacked, fool!
"COoks the chicken?" I love cooked chicken ... oh, you said 'COcked'. That's something different, isn't it?
"COoks the chicken?" I love cooked chicken ... oh, you said 'COcked'. That's something different, isn't it?Ummm ... okay ... would this be an appropriate time for a comic-thread-jacking?
Get outta that thread! GET OUT!
I'll do it! Get out of that thread! You're being comic-thread jacked, fool!
For some reason this thread has gone the 'Yakity Sax' route! :)
Did someone say 'chicken'?
"COoks the chicken?" I love cooked chicken ... oh, you said 'COcked'. That's something different, isn't it?Ummm ... okay ... would this be an appropriate time for a comic-thread-jacking?
Get outta that thread! GET OUT!
I'll do it! Get out of that thread! You're being comic-thread jacked, fool!
I meant like a gun... but if you'd like to go urban dictionary on that word, have at it. It's a rubber chicken. It can take it.
It is situations like this...edition wars, WOTC company decisions that don't work for me, continuous arguing by members of the community, and seemingly political approaches to the game by the parent company and fans alike...this is why I quit playing D&D (other than trying a PBP for the first time). A long time ago I asked on a Paizo thread if WOTC had sucked the fun out of D&D for anyone else. Now I realize that it wasn't just WOTC it was the internet fan base.
You won't be seeing much of me anymore other than the PBP and the comic section. I'm tired of the bickering, arguing, decisions of WOTC I disagree with; there is no fun in this or the game anymore because of all of these things. I hope you guys find some peace. With all this, D&D just isn't worth it anymore.
Goodbye!