OldSchool's page

You know, you bring up an interesting point, but in our area it has been quite the contrary. Our gaming store can't get enough of them in stores because they keep selling out.

I've had the same experience in my area. I had a devil of a time getting a second copy of the PFRPG core rulebook ... and it hasn't actually arrived yet.

TOO LATE!!!

I'm in ...

In MY opinion,

4th edition is Dungeons and Dragons, But it's not the Dungeons and Dragons that I grew up with. It's not the Dungeons and Dragons I welcomed with open arms like I did 3.0/3.5.

It just feels different,to me. Having played that computer game everyone compares it to, I can say the assessment is fair. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, BTW. But the implementation of those sorts of elements into the game makes this incarnation of Dungeons and Dragons different enough that I don't know if I could ever embrace it enough to play for more than an occasional game.

*Sigh*

I suppose I agree. I've been trying to enjoy 4E for months ... quite literally. I've played about 22 sessions now with the 3 different groups I could find where I lived. My own groups weren't that interested.

Honestly, I tried very hard. I just couldn't find the 'fun.' At its heart, it's a game ... if you can't find the 'fun,' then it's not worth playing.

I'll look back at it in a year, but I don't hold out much hope.

I feel like this is almost a personal failure. I've played and enjoyed every Edition that ever existed. I'm too downhearted at the moment to analyze what it is that's taken the 'fun' out of this Edition ... for me.

Arnwyn wrote:

I don't know too much about the products he worked on, but I was a never a big fan of his posting style (or his interests based on what he posted about) so I only have apathy. Though good luck on his new endeavors and all that!

Sorry for (comparatively) negative post in an otherwise love-fest. Carry on!

Dunnnn Dun Dunnnnnn Dun! Who summoned me?

It wasn't I, O Terrible One!

I was just wondering where Mike McM had gone ... and stumbled on this Thread.

I figure he's just gone Smurfy on us. He'll pop up again soon.

"Oh, and BTW this insult was hurled at both David Marks and me."

Seems to me there are folks who just don't understand you might have a different, but equally valid point of view. Or perhaps they just don't have enough 'common courtesy' to treat you with respect.

That's not right. Not on a forum, not in an e-mail, and not in person.

FWIW, you have my sympathy. And my support -- I'm interested in hearing your opinions, whether I agree with them or not. I am not interested in seeing you called cheap names.

Why, why did I open this Thread??

It was soooo loooongggg ... and involved. I thought -- there must be something important behind this.

Now you've made me actually read the GSL.

And now I really want that part of my life back.

Except, I'm afraid that reading the GSL removes my 'right' to petition for the return of any portion of my 'life energy' squandered in this fashion.

Question: is it still OK to play an OGL-compatible game after playing 4E? Enquiring minds wnat to know ...

This license is really almost laughable at the end of the day. I was thinking about it on the drive home, and it offers absolutely no protection. In fact, it doesn't really do anything. At any time, for any reason, or for no reason, WotC can terminate it and you, poor small time publisher, are left holding the bag. The only people I could imagine relying on it are self-publishing/pdf types that have no other option.

I think Vic said it best above: why even bother with a license that doesn't do or mean anything.

Ah, the heady brew that is the corporate life ...

They can offer the GSL, even a very restrictive GSL, merely so that they can say: "See, a license is available."

If no one uses it, it's not WOTC's problem.

Clearly, any businessman would be well-advised to completely avoid this license. Instead, approach WOTC for a more traditional closed license.

It will be interesting to see if anyone chooses this tactic. And, if WOTC is interested in playing.

I think I might be done with D&D and most of my gaming hobbies in general. I have always loved D&D and everything it had to offer, but recently I have dramatic life changes.

My life was going great: happy home life, got two raises at work then offered a promotions that would change my life style as far as money, law school was going great as I completely blew this year out of the water. Then recently I lost someone very dear to me in my life. The most important person in my life.

I've found myself having no interest in the things I used to love. I used to cherish books and movies that had special meaning to me, but recently I went through my collection and found myself selling most of the books, movies, and games I own. These items had no more meaning to me. I've held off selling the 30ish D&D books I own because I knew at one time they held some importantance to me. Now I don't feel anything for them or anything else in my life. I have no interest in what used to make me happy, from the companionship of my friends or the understanding of my family.

I'm thinking of selling everything I own and moving away from the town were I live, and never looking back. I've started tying up loose ends at work, I've haven't planned own signing up for classes next semester, my family which lives six hours away knows I've had a great loss, but I don't think I want to see them or anything that could remind me of my old life so I won't be moving to my home town. I'll miss everyone and everything I had, but I want to forget everything. I've started packing and in a few days I'm going to get in my truck and keep driving until I find a place that does minded me of what I had.

Fizz

My boy, this is depression. A classic case. I might admit I've danced with this b**ch before, myself.

Seek help. Now. Before you've done more things you'll likely come to regret. This is something no one can really deal with on their own. You need time ... and someone else's perspective ... to get you through this.

And whatever you do, do NOT feel alone. Many, many people suffer through this. They survived -- you will, too.

Just take it one day ... one day ... at a time.

Wishing you the very best of luck ... smoke and prayers going up just for you.

ShinHakkaider wrote:

I havent't lost perspective. I plan on staying with 3.5 / Pathfinder or my houseruled combo.

If that somehow makes me less worthy of being called a gamer then sobeit.

<SNIP>

You would think a plague has been loosed on the gaming world with the publication of 4e.

Why does anyone feel the need to come here and justify their choice not to play 4e by BASHING those of us that just want to play the darn game.

This whole thread started because of the over exaggerated claims of abandonment. I don't deel abandoned when I go into a 7-11 and can't get my favorite flavor Slurpee and therefore must choose my second favorite flavor - or *gasp* not buy one on that visit. I do not picket the place until they load up the machine with my chosen flavor.

I respect anyone that gives 4e an honest and unfiltered look and then decides to stick with 3e. But so many of the objections are clearly ill-informed and quite over-stated.

I believe it is a common, human reaction. They come across something they truly enjoy, often a hobby of some sort, and it gradually becomes very 'personal' for them. Once something becomes personal, it's very human to react negatively, even over-react negatively, when it is changed -- change becomes a threat.

I know it's hard ... but it's far better to actively avoid making any hobby, even this one, 'personal.' Because change is going to happen. It is as inevitable as the rising and falling of the tides, as the setting of the sun at the end of each day. No man or woman can stand against it for long. Get a little 'dispassion' ... a little 'perspective' ... and maybe learn to ride the crests of the waves of change.

And we'll all get by.

Blackdragon wrote:

This was the same problem I had running 'Anauroch- Empire of Shade'. The adventure just really had no meat at all. By the time I got done ripping it apart, it looked nothing like what was in the book. As I've said before, I hate Delve Format.

What I'm curious about is did the adventure feel padded? That's one of the problems that I have with Delve. It's the need to reprint every stat block every time you encounter it. How bad was this module? Wotc had also said that it would be able to be played using either 3.5 or 4E rules.... How did that look on paper? Was there much converion if so?

Part of the padding problem is definitely the Delve format itself. Some encounters just don't need two pages and some need more and, as you mention, the duplicate stat blocks are also a culprit. However, I must admit that the delve format did play very well and served as an excellent format for reference at the table. The other padding that is not related to the Delve format is the duplicate encounter with the kobolds (it's basically the same encounter twice, on the same map, but with one new enemy) and the Burial Site Encounter. There is an NPC investigating a draconic burial site, but not a lot is done with that flavor other than just to link another encounter to an existing pregenerated map. The town itself lacked any exciting or interesting detail, and the information provided wasn't really worth reading. The Falcoln's Hollow info in the back of Crown of the Kobold King is a much better example of efficiently conveying the flavor of an interesting town.

I haven't read anything suggesting that this adventure is easy to convert, and, well, I'd have to say that anyone who made that claim was just blowing smoke (and that's the nicest way I can phrase that). This module is as convertable to 3e as an Exalted module. You would basically be lifting the plot (ick), maybe some of the tactical elements (which you would then have to stat up using 3.5), and the personalities of the NPCs...

Just finished running through it ... and I must, sadly, agree with you.

Sub-par.

However, I much appreciate your suggestions at the top of this Thread. Believe I'll use them.

I'm looking forward to much better 4E material ... from somebody ... any time now!!!!!!

Rambling Scribe wrote:

Ashavan, Steerpike, I'm with you guys. It's been a lot harder lately to enjoy these boards as a person who likes both 4E and Pathfinder.

You could try my solution - nervous breakdown every other Thursday followed by a night of drunken debauchery.

Alright, I'll admit the 'drunken debauchery' does sound good ...

But I might be too old for a regular, every-other-weekly bout of it!!

Would it be alright if I just indulged, say, once a month or two??

Seriously, I still expect (hope) that the unpleasantness will die down here faster than it will elsewhere.

Hang in.

The sniping is getting worse. Misinformation, disinformation, 4evil, kewl, munckin, creatively-challenged, MMORPG, sheeple, yada, yada, yada.

The signal to noise ratio is dropping rapidly. Any civil dialogue is drowned out quickly.

It seems that this board in unwanted by the Paizo community so why not just shut it down?

That would be very unwelcome, at least to me.

I'd like to hope that people will learn to behave better.

Been playing since the 1E AD&D days, but I've never used any Paizo products. Pathfinder interests me, and I'm very much interested in keeping my 3.5E games alive.

I'm also going to be playing some 4E, I expect, and I'm glad to see there is a place to discuss 4E here as well. The WotC forums have become dominated by a bunch of argumentative idiots. Unless that's the case here as well, I'm going to make this my new home and I suspect I'll end up subscribing to/buying quite a few Paizo products as the coming weeks and months unfold.

Nice to see an active community here!

Welcome, young fellow. [Chuckle ... I've finally grown so old I can say that with very little fear of being wrong ...]

I have the same reaction to what's happening on the WOTC forum as you do, and usually come here for some relief.

It's not perfect here -- you'll find some of the 'argumentation' continues even in these calmer waters. But, like you, I feel this is a better place. A little more of the 'live and let live' philosophy.

And, apparently also like you, I'll be dabbling in both 4E and PFRPG. I now own quite a few Pathfinder products, and I'm extremely pleased with the quality. I hope you will be, too.

Pete Apple wrote:

No cookies... ? Sniff.

I find that cookies are best saved to bribe the DM at critical points in the night's adventure. ;)

I have found this to be true ... for about 35 years now.

Fudge also works.

Enjoy your D&D and don't worry so much about its flavor.

The taxonomy of gaming will work itself out over the decades, without our help.

The way I read the preview, it sounds to me as if once you take the multi-classing feat, you can dip into the powers of that class PLUS take abilities that have that class as a prerequisite. I don't think there's enough information to really understand how this plays out without seeing the full rules, but I would expect that being considered a "cleric" for a bunch of non-power abilities is useful. Keep in mind that 4e looks to be based on a bunch of talent trees with only a handful of core class abilities. The multi-class feats theoretically grant you the ability to access the feat trees in addition to letting you dabble in the core class's powers. And, given that it appears much of your power derives from these feat trees, this is fairly similar to taking a level in rogue to gain sneak attack and thereby giving up a level in wizard under 3e.

But, if you're not buying into the structure of the 4e classes to begin with, you're probably not going to be happy with this rule (surprise, surprise). In related news, if you don't like chocolate ice cream, you probably won't like chocolate pudding either.

Sorry, I like all forms of chocolate.

I'm with Sebastian on this. Although we can't know until some time after 6 June, the combination of 4E multiclassing (OK, maybe it is powerdipping) and custom classes (swordmage, etc.) should please most folks. But only if you're willing to approach this new Edition on its own terms. Of course, you don't have to.

But why deny yourself the opportunity? What if it really is fun?

Oh ... and SMURF! Sorry. Sometimes I get enthusiastic about little things. I'll give this up ... eventually.

Over on ENWorld they're talking about a Fighter Multiclassed as Rogue dual wielding a longsword and a dagger, able to use Fighter powers in one hand and Rogue powers (and sneak attacks) in the other. What do you think of the concept?

Do Fighters get weapon tagged powers?

Cheers! :)

It sounds 'cool,' as you youngsters say.

'Multiclassing,' 'Powerdipping,' ... who cares??? As long as you can create characters you are excited about playing, it's all good.

So ... let me get this straight. On the one hand, this character is straightforward, honest, and true-blue. And, on the other, untrustworthy, sneaky, and back-stabbing. Love it!

And ... SMURF!!! I just love that.

It's good to see publishers besides WotC producing 4e content. WotC's adventures are not always of the quality that I'd like. I'm not very familiar with Goodman Games, but if they're going to be publishing 4e adventures I would like to check them out.

My group voted 7-1 to move to the new edition when it comes out. Given a choice between my friends and a rule system, I'm going to go with "friends" 10 times out of 10.

I hope that, eventually, 4e has Paizo-quality material available. I'm still going to subscribe to Pathfinder but I'm thinking of it more as reading material and inspiration than runnable adventures. I'm also thinking of it as my small contribution towards keeping arguably the best adventure publishers since D&D started in business.

You are a sensible young person. Possibly even wise.

We already know that Necromancer Games will support 4E through Paizo. So you won't have to go far to get your 4E fix.

And please remember, OldSchool to NewSchool; you can still, occasionally, enjoy that 'old' Edition. 'Old' does not equal 'obsolete.' At least to this Old Fellow.

An extremely interesting and unique opportunity.

I hadn't noticed this before ... thank you for bringing it forward.

You know ... it's possible to be a Paizo patron and still support 4E. Yes, I know I'm hardly the first to mention that. Nor the last.

If you can remember that it's a game. Just a game. Everything will be alright.

Humans don't do well when their emotions are too strongly engaged. Once reason goes out the window, things get ugly.

I've enjoyed something about every single version of D&D. Chances are, I'll enjoy something about this new version. I somehow doubt it's the 'ultimate D&D' ... that it's 'better' than all previous versions.

Despite the enthusiasms of the young, 'new' does not always equal 'better' or even 'improved.' But, time will tell on this count. No need to go crazy, invent 'pro' and 'anti' camps, and rag on each other.

Although it happened anyway.

Finns.

Ever read the Kalevala? The ancient Finns of myth really kicked ... well, stuff.

Oh ... and Smurf. Because I've never tried this before!!

Of course I have.

In the end, the only judgement I really trust is my own. I won't know whether this new game is something I want to add to my repertoire until after I've read it, thought about it, and probably played it a bit.

I never really leave behind any version of D&D, though. I still have all the materials (literally all) and I still play, at least occasionally, all the old editions.

Why not?

Interestingly, this contradicts what they flatly told Clark Peterson. Which means, I think, that they went back and changed the GSL in the last couple of weeks because of the outrage over the so called poison pill.

Well, a more charitable way to put it:

"They more closely interpreted the existing text."

My doggone lawyers use this sort of thing on me all the time. I think it's what lawyers really do for a living ... more and more closely 'interpret' things (a form of re-invention).

WOTC's game designers have been doing this for some time -- re-inventing or re-interpreting existing D&D terms to fit into their new system (things like 'multiclassing,' for example).

DaveMage wrote:

I think the impact on Paizo just went up a notch...

So it looks like, for the future, if OGL/3.x, it'll be under the Paizo LLC.

If it's gonna be GSL/4e, it'll have to be released through their partner Necromancer Games.

A bit more dramatic than I expected, but I guess it makes sense from WOTC's point of view: they want companies using the GSL to be creating supporting products for the D&D brand.

Conversely, it makes sense for Paizo to stick with the OGL, because it frees Paizo from fearing the possible/eventual revocation of the GSL.

I just hope Necromancer Games can bring their products up to par with Paizo's. Maybe they should hire a lot of Paizo's authors. And editors.

If ... if ... this turns out to be true, then perhaps it makes sense for all or most all of the current 3PPs to stick with the OGL.

Would you want to continue your business, with someone's foot on your neck? I know ... this is definitely hyperbole ... I merely use it for effect. More reasonably, I can't imagine anyone currently running a 3PP who would want to take such risks. If you've got a successful product line, you should probably just go with that.

On the other hand, this does open up new niches for as-yet-unknown small companies to fill -- 4E niches deliberately left open by WOTC. Such companies would have to be very careful, however, to avoid any sudden changes in the GSL.

Sad, really. Looks like a permanent rift in the gaming community is here.

If this turns out to be true.

Jason Grubiak wrote:

Oh great...Now Im depressed that someone thinks that making $75,000 a years isnt alot of money. :(

I agree Jason. There are really only two kinds of jobs which pay that kind of money, Lawyer and Doctor. And you have to be good at what you do to make that.

I woudl seriously doubt if anyone working at wizard's, except maybe for the very top brass, made that kind of back.

There are others. A good senior scientist or engineer draws six figures, a good manager in an appropriate field (even government) can also draw six figures. And then there are all those financial types ...

It's sad that the RP world is so parsimonious.

Just noticed that Clark (Orcus) posted on this topic on ENWorld.

Hope I get this insert correct:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=4135044&posted=1#post4135044

If not, my apologies.

The essence of Orcus' comments: he believes Hasbro is very likely revisiting their decision to have even a GSL. Interesting times.

Hmm. An interesting discussion is beginning over there ... you might find it interesting, too.

Oops! The ENWorld mods just moved the Thread to:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=222665

{I suppose this was inevitable.}

I'd expect it. I've been around since 1975, plus or minus a year, and i will continue to be around till the end--the end meaning, the end of my life. My brothers kids will be introduced to DnD in 2009 and we will be playing with them for the next 20+ years.

We all have our favorite edition/s and most, i'd guess, have taken the best of each edition and homebrewed their own unique versions. As with all editions, if there is something i dont like, then i homebrew it out or change it. No worries. So i say, bring on all new editions and... GAME ON!

All this being said, i wont spend another 1000+ dollars on any more editions. For now on, it's all about the core books and all the new modules. That's where my future earnings will go. No regrets, none at all. Love the game, always have and always will.

A special thanks goes out to PAIZO. You are appreciated.

Thoth-Amon

Wait just a minute!

Has one of my alternate personalities established its own account on this Board?

...cause this might as well have been posted by me.

So, Thoth-Amon, are you also an old coot like me?? And why did you wait until '75 to jump on board?

So many of these fond posts ...

Who would have thought?

Thank you, all, for your kindness.

Because this name truly, truly fits.

And I'm feeling especially old this week. But I'll be better after this weekend.

Well, I guess I feel a little better after reading all this.

Thank you for treating the old coot with such respect and admiration ... a bit like a member of the family. Maybe your cranky old uncle with the peculiar habits and the twinkling eye.

He told a great story and he loved him some puns.

A few of the Old Guard will assemble this weekend and hoist a few in his honor. Maybe roll a few rounds of the Original just for him. There will be laughter, there will be groans, there will be bad puns and good fun ... and undoubtedly at least one TPK.

I miss you, EGG. It will never be the same again.

Goodbye, you old coot.

I've missed you these last years.

...but I'll never forget you.

Some of the Old Guard will hoist a few this weekend and maybe roll a few sessions of the Original. In your name, my friend, all in your name.

hmarcbower wrote:

crosswiredmind wrote:

Is it okay with you to have a large vocal group post to the d20/OGL board to tell everyone that they are ignorant cavemen for playing an older edition?

No, it's not, and that's why we have such a problem with the WotC marketing thus far. ;)

I agree. That does not justify the displacement of anger on to anyone that shows interest in 4E. Which game you play is up to you. I do not see the choice of 3.5 or 4E as a negative comment on anyone's character or mental capacity.

I would hope that everyone could agree to that.

It's just a game ...

As my very best friend never left the First Edition, you can bet I agree with you on this point.

I see every single Edition as a new and distinct game ... a different version of the iconic fantasy role-playing RPG. I don't really intercompare them; I just ask if this newer version is fun. If yes, I play it. So far, the answer has always been yes. Frankly, if I didn't take this approach, I would have left the cutting edge of D&D long ago.

Whether I end up with 4E or not, you'll never see me indicting anyone on the basis of their like/dislike of any game -- even D&D.

Tarren Dei wrote:

Krell wrote:

I have no idea how long Crosswiredmind has been a gamer, but ...

He's old. CWM is old. I'm old too. So are you. We're all old.

Yep - just shoveled snow and my back hurts. Welcome to 40 - that is what the pain is telling me.

BTW - I just pulled out my battered copy of Dungeon. I apparently bought it in 1975 since a receipt that I scribbled on was still in it. I started with D&D the very next year.

So I have been a gamer for 33 of my 40 years - for 5 of those I worked at my FLGS.

You youngster, you! Oh ... to see 40 again!!

Oddly, I've only been gaming (D&D) a bit longer than you. Since I was wargaming before that, I suppose I'm automatically a "grognard" (according to the definitions and attitudes police).

It's good to see your excitement about a new edition. And your passion to defend it.

Sadly, I have to say this. A LOT of the folks I gamed with when D&D began have since fallen away from the game. 3E did not bring them back. I'm afraid 4E won't, either. While I wish it was true that most folks move on to new editions, I'm afraid I haven't seen it. Not for D&D ...

Joking and kidding aside ...

Like Sebastian, I've held off ordering the new Core Books from Amazon, and would much rather get them from Lisa.

Price needn't be the same ... just in the general ballpark.

Like Sebastian, I'd prefer to support Paizo.

Hmm. Am I still allowed to play D&D, despite the length of my 'beard' and my extreme age (=grognard)?

Well, if I am ...

I was messing around with Chainmail rules when this D&D thing came out. I've followed it through each change and found something to like each time.

So ...

1) I'll give 4E a try by buying the three core books. But I won't shift over immediately.

2) Depends on how well I like those first three books. If I like them, of course I'd continue down Paizo's 4E path. Your work is literally the best.

3) Depends on how well I like those first three books. If I don't, I'll continue down Paizo's 3E path. If I do move primarily to 4E ... I'm not sure what I'll do about Paizo. My professional life is busier than ever. I'd like to keep supporting Paizo ... perhaps I'd end up supporting Planet Stories more heavily.

Hope that helps!

Aberzombie wrote:

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

I think so, but how are we going to get the ogres into halfling sized "hot pants?"

Thank you, O Prince.

If you hadn't done that, my obsessive nature would have forced me to post ... a somewhat similar response! It would likely have involved barbarians and gnomes, however...and maybe some stiletto-heeled boots. In black leather.

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

Oh no! They got to Nick too! What happened Nick? Did they steal your tinfoil hat? Seriously, I'm glad you like the game. You really had us going the way you were ripping on the pit fiend entry earlier this week. Man this is weird.

I drank the Kool-Aid.

Very clever of you, Mr. Logue.

In my day job, I have drunk so many kinds of Kool-Aid over the last 4 decades that I eventually became completely immune!

It took time, and there were several near-terminal events, but in the end I developed a formidable protection.

Seriously -- thank you for your carefully worded opinions (and most of all for your willingness to offer them). Even an old cynic like myself finds them useful.

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

Yeah, I read it. He sounds really enthusiastic about the new rules. Of course, he is working on 4E stuff, so you can't say that his opinion is unbiased. This isn't much different than Mike Mearls or another WotC designer commenting on how great 4E is. Duh! Of course, he's going to say that it rules!

First Erik, now Ari!

You know how you spot a WotC lackey? They say something positive about 4e. It's that simple. No normal logical human being could ever ever ever like 4e. Anyone who claims differently is paid and lying.

Thank you.

It's taken me 15 minutes to clean the sarcasm off my keyboard.

That said, there's really no reason to doubt Ari. He's not going to risk his reputation, built up over many years, for any game. If he says he liked it ... he liked it.

It's as simple as that.

So far with every edition we seem to have different designers. Everybody thinks their ideas are better than the last guys. They see different options, so they go there and make their claims. When 5th edition rolls around with new designers, they will say the same thing. Everyone is going to feel they can make improvements to the game regardless of what they are. What are improvements to one person may not be to another.

For example, say in "X" amount of years, new designers say "Lets go back to the basics of what the game was all about". Some players will say great, others will say that isn't what it was about, others will say previous ideas sucked, others will say you ruined my game there was nothing wrong with it in the first place.

Very true.

Because, of course, there are NO objective standards. This isn't physics -- it's gaming. Everything is subjective to some degree.

Hmmm. There many pessimists and optimists here!

Not enough information yet for anything like a sound decision.

When I actually see the crunch ... then I'll know.

This means that Ioun has even more stones than Chuck Norris.

UNNACCEPTABLE!

Certainly ... UNBELIEVABLE!!

I don't like saving stuff. The viruses might swim up inside of me.

Sheesh!!

I come here ... make an innocent post ... WAY too late to be of any real use to anyone.

Then I just happen to glance south at Heathy's post.

Ewwwww!! Man, I feel violated...

[But I'll get over it.]

Christian Johnson wrote:

So I think even Hasbro might be a little confused as to what they are actually saying in their new OGL.

Hasbro isn't confused at all. This OGL will require the use of the Player's Handbook. Future versions of the OGL may not.

I think the inference here is obvious.

In years to come, if WOTC publishes additional "4E" games (not D&D), then they will alter the OGL to allow the publication of 3rd party items that build on the additional PHB.

I could be wrong. But I think I'm right.

I apologize now if any of my posts today are a bit hostile. I seem to have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed today.

No, no. No need to apologize.

You didn't seem hostile, just aggressive and pushy. And everyone is like that sometimes.

Truth be told, even 'today' you seem a lot less aggressive and pushy than many posters on the WOTC site. They seem unable to accept the fact that anyone should be allowed to hold a different opinion. Aggressive, pushy, and hostile ... three strikes (and most people are out).

I still expect to be playing 4e, but WotC could most certainly snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Hmm. I am mostly a lurker...and have read much of what Sebastian has been posting.

I believe I'll offer a nuanced version of Sebastian's comment.

I expect to give 4E a real chance, but the people making the decisions at WOTC are giving me reasons to doubt.

I certainly wish WOTC all the best in their quest to capture a new and viable market of RPGers. I don't mind at all that this group is much, much younger than I (and my old comrades). If I can find a way to join in on the fun, well and good. If I can't, there are plenty of other avenues for me (and mine) to explore.

If nothing else, it will be very interesting to see just who Hasbro is willing to 'kick to the curb,' as some have phrased it.

EDIT: Can't believe I forgot to say this. What matters most to me is the intellectual content and its quality. With well over 30 years experience, I can adapt anything ... to anything. It is very difficult to find quality -- outside Paizo.

Folks,

As it stands there remains a chance that Paizo will not convert to 4.0 next year, mostly because we will not have the materials in hand with enough time to do so. The only viable option, at that point, is to stick with 3.5 for the time being. This opens the option of producing an improved "3.75" somewhere down the road to address a few commonly acknowledged problems with the rules without throwing out the three decades of tradition that have kept D&D, fundamentally, the same game since the very beginnig. At that point, it seems, Paizo would be producing a "Pathfinder" RPG that would be wholly independent of Dungeons & Dragons and Hasbro's plans. Such a plan carries with it considerable risk, but it may be the only serious option available to us for 2008.

I'm sorry to see this happening to you. I'm sure you're not really surprised.

As for me, I will stick with Paizo.

Why -- c) of course.

There isn't enough reliable information about 4E yet.

We'll see.

Shroomy wrote:

I'm not the oldest of the old school, but they haven't alienated me. I set aside my anger and adapted to the new situation, principally because I like what I hear about 4e and also because I see all kinds of potential in the web format (art and map integration into the digital table-top, hyperlinks to other articles both inside and outside of the DI, searchable indexes, the ability to integrate errata, etc. etc.) What good does being PO'd for months on end do anyways?

A very good point. I see that not all old school D&D players feel alienated by the green brains of Gleemax. I don't have a Myspace. I don't down load music from the internet. I get my news from the paper and television. Also I read my magazines on the toilet not the internet. So these web, hyperlink, what a ma doos, just are not in my consciousness.

But I was also optimistic of the e-tools that were promised with the release of 3rd edition. What ever hapened to that? the premiere of new online Dragon and Dungeon magazines were also disappointing. So although I am optomistic about 4e, I do not share that same optimism for the DDI. I like the idea of the online virtual game table, so I can play with my wide spread cousins and uncles. I hope they can deliver on that.

Never think all the old school players feel alienated. I'm basically a Jurassic gamer, and I'm not alienated or even particularly angry. Would I rather have my classic mags? OH YES! Do I still play old school D&D? ALSO YES! Am I impressed by what I've seen of the DDI? NO. Does Paizo impress me? ABSOLUTELY YES.

I don't know enough about 4E to have an informed opinion. I doubt anybody outside WOTC does. So ... I will wait and see. All the previous editions are still there for me to enjoy.

Times change. People change. Is it any wonder that games change?

Are you having fun?

Then it doesn't matter.

Old gamer...young gamer...the important word there is 'gamer.'

And you can take that from a gamer who predates all the books and boxes...

This seems to be the right place to make my post. My only post on this subject.

I'm another one of the 'original players' -- one of Gary's first generation converts, part of the Chainmail generation. As I turn away from my desk, I can still see all the old, original material (tattered, low quality booklets and aging boxes; hand-written notes painstakingly assembled). And yes, a complete collection of Dragon Magazine.

Like most of the old players, I haven't been able to play the game straight through to the present. Too busy having careers and kids, I fear. Hosting or attending a game session is a very occasional 'thing' now. But I always kept a connection to the game and I always knew (basically) where Gary was and what he was up to.

For most of these decades, my connection was Dragon Magazine. It's been great, it's been good, it's been 'just OK' -- but it's always been there. Just like the younger players, I will miss the old girl like crazy! Now that her long run has ended, I suppose I can have those shelves of fading magazines bound into a series of books...

Please remember that life is change. Don't waste any of your time spitting into the wind or pushing ropes up hills. The game isn't the publisher, it's the players. You are all still here. Play it the way you like it, play it with your friends and neighbors. If you don't respect WotC products, just don't buy them. If you like Paizo products, buy those. If you don't like the idea of 4e, just keep playing 3e or 2e (shudder) or even 1e.

The old days were great, but they're gone. Unless you happen upon the very occasional gaming session starring we Golden Oldies (lots of gray hair...where there's any hair at all).

It's up to you to make the new days even better. Best of luck to Paizo Publishing...and anyone else with the gaming spirit and a good attitude.