I think that the tone of this board is what keeps me around. If I wanted a serious political debate I'd be posting on a political forum. If I wanted a bitter edition war thread to post on I could go to EnWorld or Gleemax. If this place ever clamped down on hilarity I'd be gone, and most likely my gaming dollars with me.
As to other forums, seen them, not impressed. Angry, juvenile, insulting, overly moderated. Feels like you are trapped in a room with a bunch of sugared-up 10-year-olds with a couple of bored day care workers continually shouting at them to knock it off. No thanks. If a legitimate thread is posted, it gets honest, serious answers. If a post is posted purely to stir up controversy or start the 'edition wars' flaming up again, then I will be in the forefront doing my monkey jackanape dance.
Life is too serious as it is. My real life is stuffed with hard choices and daunting issues. I enjoy the chance for levity and comraderie we get here.
|
As a 'more permanent board member' that doesn't participate it comic thread-jacking, I think I can offer a different perspective to a lot of the regulars.
I don't think it is my place to dump on a thread that may become productive. I've seen it happen a lot. In fact, I've seen a thread continue to remain on topic and produce more compromise after a comic thread-jack began.
Since I don't want to get in the way of a thread that MAY yield positive results, I refrain from 'piling on' with the comic asides. If a thread seems completely negative and the original poster doesn't seem likely to care for a response, I ingore it.
There are other threads that are great for the comic asides. Any thread that accidentally gets started and the first post gets deleted becomes one, and I'm okay with that. Every board member can start a thread in the off-topic area that is for those kinds of funny posts.
I think the idea of comic posts is okay - in moderation. But lately, it has been too much and too fast. One person starts it and then everyone joins in. If the first person 'jumps the gun', they're ruining a good conversation. I haven't read the specific thread that roguerogue is talking about - but I've seen it happen in other threads. So, for those of you who are reading this thread, I ask you, don't stop with the comic asides which are so important to you, but reign them in and before posting ask yourself 'am I ruining a valid topic'? If the answer is yes, show some self control and refrain from posting.
|
Also, why do these comic thread jacks rarely occur in the discussions of the gaming products, like DMs asking for help on the Adventure paths? Is it something about PfRPG that brings this out in people?
I'd say they happen because everyone here understands that a request for help is exactly what it is.
Discussions that start out as a trolling should not be given the gravity as request for help. It's really that simple.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
DeadDMWalking, you articulated my feelings pecisely.
Comic threadjacking is sometimes a reasonable, fun response to a toxic thread. Comic threadjacking is sometimes a rude activity in a productive thread. Sometimes the dividing line is a subjective call.
Use common sense. I place "respectful" above "funny" in my personal hierarchy of virtues, so I keep out of smourf-filled, random hijackings. Your hierarchy may vary.
I've also tried to get a thread back on track. that's not because I have a "Very Important Opinion", but rather because I have something to say which I think is germaine, on a topic I think is interesting.
|
|
rougerogue makes the observation that comic threadjacking is more common than it was. That's not really my experience - it seems about the same to me, with the same suspects appearing every time.
Frankly, there are limits and we have reached them on occasion - the banning of (the recently resurrected) Vomit Guy springs to mind. That said, I have rarely seen anything actively offensive on these boards that wasn't intended, and Vomit Guy's banning was controversial (a few were upset by him, many surprised at the heavyhandedness of the clamp-down). If a thread wanders off on a tangent, it is often because there isn't much to actually talk about. The OP posts, you get a few responses to the thread, its actual core of interest is exhausted by-and-large, especially if it just the OP giving their opinion (sometimes, no one cares what you think) but some comic potential remains. Most of us are adults and can take it, the humour is normally pretty gentle and surreal anyway rather than aggressive ribbing, and I haven't normally seen an interesting discussion obliterated by the comic threadjacks - it just gets longer than it might. It might not be to everyone's taste, but there are also plenty of laugh-out-loud moments too from perusing these threads, and that can't be bad. If your post doesn't generate the deep thought and appreciation you thought it might, maybe it wasn't much of a post, even if it was phrased politely.
We had an influx of people posting with PRPG arriving, and some were not especially nice. While they probably don't represent a majority of non-Paizo posters (I don't really know - this is the only board I post on) the average Paizoan shows much greater courtesy and kindness than many. The humour is part of the Paizo board culture, and something to be treasured.
|
|
Feels like you are trapped in a room with a bunch of sugared-up 10-year-olds with a couple of bored day care workers continually shouting at them to knock it off.
Hey! I worked there! In defense of sugared-up 10-year-olds, they make great paintball targets.
ahem...
so not to be accused of comic threadjacking...
Most of the time I see this happen the topic was either designed to create or devolved into flame wars. Rarely have I seen a decent discussion devolve into comics threadjacking for long.
I hope no one tries to censor comic threadjacking mainly because it serves to keep things light.
I still fail to see how someone else’s narcissism is more important than mine. I am assuming, and maybe I am wrong here, that if someone posts on the message boards they want to express themselves and be heard (read to be more exact). You may not agree with my expression, you may not even like it. On the same hand, I may not like yours no matter how ‘polite and eloquently’ you present it.
If other message boards are better because they are more actively moderated, why are you posting here? Please do not think I am dismissing anyone’s opinion or telling anyone to love it or leave it. I simply disagree that threadjacking is a problem. Please consider an irreverent quip may have just as valid reasons behind it as your thesis on why Vancian magic is superior to power points and should remain in Pathfinder.
|
I for one, completely agree with you. Anyone who jacks a thread on these forums should be ostracised and marginalised. I think the moderators are not doing a good enough job of scanning the boards looking for humour. They should act to eliminate it wherever it occurs. These boards are a very serious matter, meant to elucidate and educate. Their purpose is not to entertain, and we have all spent many years of our lives in training for this responsibility. Every topic should be dealt with in a somber, reflective and suitably respectful tone. Outbreaks of hilarity are definitely not welcome on these forums. This is not a game, people.
I didn't think that was funny.
Off with his head!
People with no senses of humor have rights, too! It's my party, and I can cry if I want to!
Well a site that has a built in mechanic for comic threadjacking ($murfs anyone?), I seriously doubt there is any chance of any significant "crack-down" (why is crack down "to oppression" and crack up is "to laugh", that is kind of strange when you think about it).
As to the comment that the comic threadjacking is like to people discussing a topic and one makes a joke. Yes it can be like that, but more often it is like two people talking about a topic (perhaps a very assine or silly topic but one they are at least intellectually interested in) in a serious manner and a third comes up and says, "That is a stupid topic. Let me tell you a joke, yucka yucka!" And suddenly you're surrounded by a bunch of bozos each telling their own lame jokes. Sure you can ignore that but the comments just become so much distraction.
I hope no one tries to censor comic threadjacking mainly because it serves to keep things light.
That I agree with. It's the reason why I asked about netiquette, rather than any call for moderators to use the ban hammer.
It strikes me that there's some similarities with the table-level issue of players who can't stop making Star Wars references, going meta, and doing OOC color-commentary. How do people deal with that? If it's something that you encourage at your games (and the Buffy game system actually has game mechanics to reward players whose jokes crack up the table), then this issue may mirror a play style difference as well.
If other message boards are better because they are more actively moderated, why are you posting here?
I've been unclear. EnWorld is heavily moderated. But the Chronicle of Higher Education and the Football Outsiders site have a largely hands-off model. FO just opens up a thread for an issue devoted to an issue that results in thread jacks and leaves it at that, such as Peyton vs. Brady and Spy-gate.
I don't think this is a moderator issue, nor do I want moderators to deal with comic threadjacks instead of other issues, nor do I think that they could handle the job better than the posters can police themselves.
I do, however, think that us talking about this issue explicitly will be helpful to the community.
As at the table, it's better if the players handle the issue themselves rather than have the DM police every little thing.
Fair enough.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
Suggestions for 'netiquette' on comic threadjacking:
(1) When someone posts about a tragic or traumatic event such as a family member dying or thoughts of suicide, no comic threadjacking.
(2) When someone posts about how one game system is better than the other, jack away (jack off? jack on?).
(3) When someone posts about the birth of a child or some other major life milestone, congratulate them and then joke.
(4) When someone discusses how a change in the mechanics of a game are going to destroy the gaming industry for thousands of years, jack!
(5) When someone introduces a discussion of racism, sexism, nationalism, rape, etc. as it relates to a fantasy game, jack carefully.
(6) When Kobold Cleaver is the original poster, jack willfully.
I think most comic threadjacking already follows this netiquette so it is descriptive more than prescriptive.
EDIT: When anyone with a poodle avatar says anything, jack.
EDIT: When anyone with a poodle avatar says anything, jack.
I get my own rule! Sa-wheat!
Suggestions for 'netiquette' on comic threadjacking:
(1) When someone posts about a tragic or traumatic event such as a family member dying or thoughts of suicide, no comic threadjacking.
(2) When someone posts about how one game system is better than the other, jack away (jack off? jack on?).
(3) When someone posts about the birth of a child or some other major life milestone, congratulate them and then joke.
(4) When someone discusses how a change in the mechanics of a game are going to destroy the gaming industry for thousands of years, jack!
(5) When someone introduces a discussion of racism, sexism, nationalism, rape, etc. as it relates to a fantasy game, jack carefully.
(6) When Kobold Cleaver is the original poster, jack willfully.I think most comic threadjacking already follows this netiquette so it is descriptive more than prescriptive.
EDIT: When anyone with a poodle avatar says anything, jack.
Well, I stand corrected. You do know Jack.
EDIT: When anyone with a poodle avatar says anything, jack.I get my own rule! Sa-wheat!
~takes a live flounder and slaps CourtFool across the head~ Behave!
Eh... whatever, I just think it's comical that the number of threads complaining about people's "Goodbye" threads now exceeds the number of such posts by a factor of 3 to 1. "These goodbye theads are wasting forum space" ha!
Yeah, but we all knew who he was talking about. Don’t interrupt my vanity!
Yeah, but we all knew who he was talking about. Don’t interrupt my vanity!
~pokes CourtFool with a live Swordfish~ BEHAVE, fool!
Two words for you…lla ma.
This thread is getting entirely too silly.
Now knock it off!
Calls down a storm of Vatican magic upon the pranksters
|
|
as a newcomer to the boards, I think the comic threadjacking is something that I greatly appreciate. As someone who see's humor in pretty much everything, I 'get' that sometimes you just cant hold your humorous observation to yourself and want to share it with others....
Hell, how many of us have played in a Tabletop game where at least one running joke didnt occur every sitting? Its a pert of the gaming culture.
Long Live Llamas! ;)
I don't think it's rude to create or participate in these tangents. What, the OP's going to cry because six of his thirty posts veered off into a discussion about troll schlong?The person who posted the thread had 8 posts ever on the forum and none of them were at all trollish or even vaguely appeared to be trolling. In the post under discussion he brought up 6 points which were fairly valid. I don't agree with several of the points but I don't agree with a lot of peoples posts.
Overall, the original post had more interesting commentary than 99% of the other posts on that thread. Please go back and re-read it. Check out the posters post history. If there was any trolling going on it was not from Carnivorous_Bean.
I don't know which posts anyone is talking about specifically. I'm just speaking up for comic threadjacking is all. When I'm the OP and people go completely off point to something they'd rather be talking about, I'm happy that the post gave those everyone a new place to play. One thought leads to another leads to another leads to another... and they mutate along the way into something new. To some, that creates a malignant tumor. For me its evolution. Conversationally, I'm just not a 'Hey you kids! Get outta my yard!' kind of guy.
I'm just not a 'Hey you kids! Get outta my yard!' kind of guy.
Get off of my lawn!!!
::skeedaddles before getting buckshot::
"What's more..." (said from a safe distance) "While I'll agree that sometimes comic asides are used aggressively to protest the topic itself, I think that this is rare. One needs to remember that when the focus of a conversation alters, the people who alter it are sharing what they can, or are able to share, in a forum, and that sharing our thoughts and learning from one another is why we're all here. For my part, I'm anecdote and joke heavy, but I'm quick to be serious and respectful when it is called for. That's what I can bring to the table. It's all I ever will bring to the table. Some people are 'Just the facts, ma'am', and they're sharing what they can share, and I sincerely respect that."
::loses sight of Cranky McOldGuy and panics::
I agree with Aubrey that the "extreme conflict avoidance" alluded to is an obvious reaction to a rash of posts (now thankfully subsided) that read something like "In my 6,000 years of gaming experience, my 206 IQ and godlike powers of perception have granted me perfect mathematical answers to all gaming questions ever asked, and anyone who disagrees with me is obviously, at best, a low-grade moron and waste of perfectly good food, oxygen, and bandwidth."
There are, as pointed out, several other boards where one can engage in serious, earnest discussion with people who post like that. No doubt many of them yield exceptionally valid insights. Unfortunately, many of them also yield angry ranting and flame wars galore. The desire to avoid that sort of holocaust here is maybe overdone sometimes, but to my mind, the humor has a clear purpose. One person's "I am NOT trolling or flaming, I'm stating self-evident facts!" often comes across as "agree with me or else!" to people who might actually have an alternative viewpoint.
If people comically threadjack one of my threads, that's a sign to me that I'm maybe posting like a pompous ass or bratty child, and should maybe take it easy. I always appreciate that message (even if I don't always follow it right away). To Chris Mortika: you're always able to let me know I'm approaching a limit in a serious manner, without resorting to lame $murf jokes. I always appreciate that. But many (or even most) people lack that gift, and if they try a serious re-direction, it just makes things worse.
|
|
"In my 6,000 years of gaming experience, my 206 IQ and godlike powers of perception have granted me perfect mathematical answers to all gaming questions ever asked, and anyone who disagrees with me is obviously, at best, a low-grade moron and waste of perfectly good food, oxygen, and bandwidth."
HEY! No fair quoting only me!
and it is a 212 IQ thank you, now please stop sucking up my oxygen!
:)
|
I agree with Aubrey that the "extreme conflict avoidance" alluded to is an obvious reaction to a rash of posts (now thankfully subsided) that read something like "In my 6,000 years of gaming experience, my 206 IQ and godlike powers of perception have granted me perfect mathematical answers to all gaming questions ever asked, and anyone who disagrees with me is obviously, at best, a low-grade moron and waste of perfectly good food, oxygen, and bandwidth."
In my 6,000 years of gaming experience, my 206 IQ and godlike powers of perception have granted me perfect mathematical answers to all gaming questions ever asked.
Comic threadjacking is a plague upon all of us productive members of the boards. I take 3 hours out of my busy high-paying job to post on these boards, and my boss would not appreciate it if my time was to be waster with childish jokes and nonsensical asides.
Besides, none of these so-called "comic" threadjacks are remotely funny, let me tell you. I have written material for the best comics alive (and dead) today, and they agree with me - these boards are not humorous.
And anyone who disagrees with me is obviously, at best, a low-grade moron and waste of perfectly good food, oxygen, and bandwidth. Trust, I have paid lawyers to look into this for me.
Ladies and gentleman, consider this thread jacked!
GET OFF OF MY LAWN!!!
Clearly you know nothing about D&D rules as a drunken, pink satyr could never make a pompous ass of himself.
It only works if you take the elite stats array and put the -2 penalty in Charisma. Also, a bunch of drinks don't actually make me more suave; they just make me think that I am. :)
No excuses, Charles. Let the flaming commence!
The grammar enforcement thread is here.
For those who are curious about the context of the the thread in question, I reproduce the opening post which started it here (spoilered for space): ** spoiler omitted **
Edit:
The post comes across to me as being somewhat irate, and I would personally rather see attempts at humour as a response (whether successful or not) rather than a flame-war.
And yet it also happened a year prior with a thread that started like this:
I noticed that the GameMastery Modules are printed in China (I guess due to much lower costs there). Now, Chinese work environments are at times less than safe and workers payed extremely poor wages, and environmental protection is not a big thing in China. Did you check that out ?
I know I may be sounding like a hypocrite, with having the stuff delivered to me by mail, and not only as .pdf. (But I guess printing them at home/work is even worse... Trees are felled anyway, one way or the other.) But still, I wanted to voice my concern in that regard.
Stefan
So, this is not a troll. It didn't start a flame war, but rather a lengthy and informed discussion of a serious issue. This issue is of particular importance to this company, as Paizo's noted for a certain level of progressive politics in its content and hiring.
And yet, still with the comic thread jacks littering the thread. It starts with a joke about Chinese food in post 15 on that thread, right after a very nice and informed and lengthy post on the topic. Then there's a LARPing joke about WTO protests. And it goes on from there.
And, weirdly, as people debate what China means and where it's going, a rising tide of people start talking about how sorry they are that we're talking about this, start "regretting" that they brought up the legitimate topic up, and say variations of "perhaps these kind of questions are not meant for public boards."
Seriously? These posters wanted to everyone to shut up about it?
I mean, come on. Paizo's needs to hear from us about what we believe about their business practices, and that includes more than just their stories but also how they come to us. And we need to learn from each other about this issue as it relates to gaming in general and about this company in particular, instead of making uninformed or ill-informed decisions. This is EXACTLY the kind of conversations that should be occurring on this site.
But the posters on that thread, comic and otherwise, couldn't handle the minimal level of conflict necessary to get a lot of information and viewpoints into the public arena, and starting using peer pressure to get people to stop talking.
So, when Court Fool talks about wanting me to have some respect for his right to comic speech. I can respect that. It's not my thing, so I just skim those posts.
But I'd ask that people similarly people respect the rights of others to have legitimate and serious disagreements with one another and stop using these tactics to try to shut down legitimate dialogue and heated disagreement.
Tell people to chill out. That's fine. Use comedy to do it.
But please think about whether you are actually using comedy as a weapon to silence viewpoints you disagree with and chill future legitimate expression. Because that's not fine.
But please think about whether you are actually using comedy as a weapon to silence viewpoints you disagree with and chill future legitimate expression. Because that's not fine.
This reminds me more than a little of the current legal debate in the U.S. about "hate speech" laws. One side says, "freedom of speech is fine, unless you start advocating discrimination against entire groups of people, then it's NOT OK." The other side says, "claiming 'hate speech' in order to stifle freedom of speech is NOT OK." They're both right, of course, but it's a matter of where you draw the line. (In Europe, they draw that line pretty far from where we do in the U.S.)
On the 'net, we don't all meet and discuss it beforehand; people just post. So each individual draws the line for him or herself. What one person views as "telling it like it is," or "refreshing candor" or "non-PC," another person views as obvious flame-baiting, and reacts accordingly. And there are always exceptions, even in individuals; Charlton Heston, famous for declaring himself a champion of "free speech" over "PC nonsense," was very much in favor of censorship of some other views (viz. Ice-T).
I got involved with the original thread not because Carnivorous Bean said "I think that using the Chinese to print Paizo products is detrimental in the long run to American labor." Actually, I would agree with that statement. What annoyed me was his wording of his complaint, to wit:
6. And this is the real kicker that finally pushed me over the edge -- 4th edition, it turns out, is being printed in the U.S., while Pathfinder is being printed in China. If given a choice, I will support a company which supports American families rather than the People's Liberation Army slave-labor sweatshop factories.
Now if someone came at the issue by calling anyone concerned with the globalization of markets as a "protectionist, deluded, socialist fear-mongerer" I would consider that wrong and hateful. These are legitimate complaints that businesses have and workers have.
I personally work in a business that has seen a huge amount of overseas competition over the last few years, and we are currently only one of two companies in my field that I know of who still manufacture their own products rather than distribute overseas items. This is a big issue for me, it affects me every time I try to inform people of the quality versus the price and I hear "I can get the same thing (which you can't) at Home Depot for a third of that price."
What I objected to was the pejorative-laden sentence that equated Pathfinder with 10-year-olds chained to printing presses while evil PLA members held Ak-47s to their head. It is nothing but a bunch of troll hate speech.
As has been said it has been discussed in other threads in a serious manner. I personally don't think that person had any real concerns over overseas manufacturing, I think he was posting something just to rile the waters. If he is off to 4e as he claims he is supporting a company that does an awful lot of business with Chinese concerns.
Now I am all for helping the American worker. But I also know if you start spouting pejorative-laden screeds equating Pathfinder with slave labor you will reap the comic whirlwind.
Charlton Heston, famous for declaring himself a champion of "free speech" over "PC nonsense," was very much in favor of censorship of some other views (viz. Ice-T).
If he was truly after trying to censor Ice-T, then he would have went before congress and not the share holders of a music company. Private individuals and companies can not censor someone, only the government can. I think there is a difference between trying to censor someone and telling people invested in a company that they are partially responsible for what the company produces. If I created a company and I put out really sick pieces of work written by someone else, I could claim, "I have nothing to do with it, I merely produce it, they write it."
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
comedyasaweapontosilenceviewpoints.com
Jade, do we really need to see your belly button?
Director of Narrative
|
...and sometimes threads just wander like normal conversation. Jokes or no jokes. Staying on topic is as much a problem on messageboards as threadjacks, if we can label either as a problem.
I've started threads that didn't go anywhere. Should I have stood up and demanded everyone listen to me? Maybe my point sucked. Maybe no one was interested. Maybe I need to be more clever. People are going to talk about what they want to talk about.
I also want to point out that not every joke has an agenda. Not every pun is intended to steer the conversation off a cliff. Sometimes we just think we're funny. Sometimes we're not, but then again, not everyone is interesting, insightful or worth reading all the time anyway.
If he was truly after trying to censor Ice-T, then he would have went before congress and not the share holders of a music company. Private individuals and companies can not censor someone, only the government can.
Legally-speaking, you are quite correct. But I feel that, in a very real sense, companies actually can censor someone nonetheless. Wal-Mart does it all the time: by putting the smaller stores out of business, and then deciding which video games are "fit" to sell in a small town, for example, they create a system of de facto censorship. If Ice-T's record company execs are swayed not to release his album, he's been censored, even though they'd call it a "business decision." He can go elsewhere, but that leads to the next point:
I feel that if free speech is valid, Ice-T's crap would flop on its own because not enough people would be stupid enough to buy it (which I suspect is pretty much what happened; I don't see him featured in too many stores anymore). There's no need to demand that the record company stop producing his albums because one disagrees with his viewpoint; the marketplace does it all by itself, if the would-be censor's tastes run parallel with most buyers'.