And the blast mage... i mean wizard... is the biggest disappointment of them all. I hate playing a wizard as a damage dealer, and that's basically all he does. Oh, eventually you get a few useful powers that don't primarily do damage (but they still do damage as well!), but they're 1/encounter at best, and most are 1/day. Boring.
To be fair, I haven't seen the books. However...
I think Squirrelloid's post touches on the entire 4e design philosophy.
- all characters must be able to accomplish similar tasks in combat
- all characters must deal equal damage in combat
- all characters must last equally long in combat
- 4e must encourage DDI
WotC really doesn't seem to have spent any time on other considerations. I should give them credit for streamlining play, but I don't feel like it today.
I tell you, if this is aimed at kids, then kids aren't all right at all.
Don't deal with kids much, Huh?
3rd was
I see wizards thought police already got you. But you can be saved. Repeat:
3e is. 3e is. 3e is. 3e is...... ;)
They want to make you think that 3e doesn't exist any more (and they want to think it themselves). But that will not happen for some time yet. 4e already has its days numbered: As soon as they release 5e, they'll pull all the GSL licenses (as far as I know, they can do that), or at least not renew them, and no one will be able to write for 4e any more, and will have a "grace period" of a couple of months to get rid of existing stock before they have to destroy it.
That being the case I would ratther teach my players shadowrun, deadlands, d6 starwars, palladium etc... then buy a new system of an old game where they diviate to far from the base.
See how bad 4e is? People would rather play Palladium :P
I, too, would rather play a different game that calls itself by a different name, so I know exactly what I'm playing there. Otherwise I'd forever be confused about things: "Now, wizards are the guys who can do all kinds of stuff, or are they those who attack with int?" "Remind me again of Lamias: Half-women or weird swarm thing?"
Not to mention elemental "archons" (lit: "ruler") living in the elemental "chaos" (the opposite of law).
Hopefully the pathfinder system will be as good as it seems
No need to hope for that - so far, Paizo has always put their money where their mouths are. If you want to hope for something, hope that it becomes even better than expected! :)
Don't you hate it when you lose your core group 10 years of being able to pick up any new game out and run a campaign with veteran players. Now I am reduced to only fantasy based d&d due to new players. :( Unless I want to run a 2 man game instead of 6.
Yeah. We suffer from player drain, too. I fondly remember the days when we had scarcely enough space on the table for everyone. Nowadays we could sit on the table and still play (it's the same table). I'll have to do a rigorous recruiting run soon (how this works: 1. - Go through all the addresses in the player database and write them about playing RPGs. If not enough, go to: 2. - Abduct likely-looking people and brainwash them. I still have one player who keeps wondering why the guy on the milk cartons looks exactly like him)
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Incidentally, I play 3E with my 8 year old daughter. I think she would have a harder time with 4E than she does with 3E. Just throwing that out there for all the folks saying 4E is for kids. I'll give it a go some time and see. She's not afraid to try new rules out.
Don't worry, it's written at her grade level.
Did you know? Some people play "Dragonborn" because they "Look like dragons!" WoW.
But seriously -- the writing in the 4ed PHB really is written at about the 4th grade level. It actually annoys me.
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To tell some more of how 4ed feels degrading. Does anyone agree with me that these books feel like there was no effort at all invested in them? They feel and read like a 3ed starter set (with fixed hp and abilities and such) or even more accurate, like a D&D miniatures game dressed up in distasteful artwork? Cause i've had both of these, and the average 3.5 splatbook had more effort invested to make than any of these. It's like a cheezy supplement for children, like a bad 3rd party campaign setting or simplified rules variation then an edition basis.I have heard children's authors opine that successful writing for children takes a great deal more effort than writing for adults, because children are a lot more picky/discriminating an audience.
My 10 year old son is far more anti-4e than I am. I have to caution him at times when he starts talking about the subject that I am sure the game will appeal to somebody. His first reaction to it, upon reading the 4e character sheets was that it felt more like a superheroes game than D&D. Pathfinder Alpha on the other hand, he seems to like.
Contributor
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So here's an excerpt from the PHB:
The easiest way to bring your character to life at the gaming table is to adopt distinctive mannerisms—particular patterns of speech or other behaviors that you can take on at the table to convey how your character looks, sounds, and acts. If you are naturally inclined to spin dice or shuffle cards while the game takes place, you might consider incorporating that behavior into your character. Perhaps your character carries a deck of cards that he shuffles when he’s bored or nervous, or maybe she crouches to the ground and creates little sculptures out of rubble while she’s waiting for her companions to decide where to go next. By contrast, another character might vociferously participate in those deliberations, frequently resorting to
exclamations such as “By Kord’s right arm!” to emphasize his opinion.Speech patterns can be even more distinctive. A dwarf who never enters battle without shouting, “The dwarves are upon you!” injects a dose of fun roleplaying just as the die rolling is getting most intense.
A wizard who never speaks except in haiku might be carrying the idea of distinctive speech to an extreme, but if you can pull it off (try writing a page full of standbys to cover common situations before the game begins), everyone at the table will remember your character for years!
Someone explain to me how this is aimed at children or idiots who can't read. 'Haiku' is thrown in with the basic expectation that you know what it means. Words like 'incorporating,' 'distinctive,' 'inclined,' 'vociferously,' may not be difficult, but they aren't simple words aimed at a dumbed down audience.
And please tell me how they threw out all of the role-playing. This section is before any of the race and class information. In fact, by page 24 the only mechanics described is the basic mechanic of rolling a d20, how to generate abilities, and a brief outline of the character creation process, although to be honest there are no real mechanics there.
Sorry folks, I just don't see any substance to these complaints.
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And please tell me how they threw out all of the role-playing. This section is before any of the race and class information. In fact, by page 24 the only mechanics described is the basic mechanic of rolling a d20, how to generate abilities, and a brief outline of the character creation process, although to be honest there are no real mechanics there.
...
Because having a catch-phrase or always speaking in Haiku isn't roleplaying. It's annoying.
It's like they gathered all the worst mannerisms of gamers spotted in the wild at GenCon and turned it into a HOW-TO guide.
Well, it isn't as if they encourage players to eat a lot of chili before each game session or something.
Well, the real "What is roleplaying and do you do it?" stuff before the classes is only 6 pages ( 18 to 24 ) and does include the new pantheon and the alignments ( 2 1/2 pages ), the rest is only the basic mechanics. You know...what´s a "class", these are the dice you will use, you need x XP to level, etc.
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By page 24 of the 3.5 PHB, they've covered all of the mechanics for races and ability scores, and are starting into classes. With no role-playing advice.
And I'm not saying that 4E's RP advice is a course on improvisational theatre, or that it's the best stuff I've ever read. But it's a good place to start, and more than they gave us in 3E. And of course, there's a lot more than the small snippet I bothered to retype.
I'm just curious too (and this is not directed at anyone in particular), how many people who are upset that 4E has supposedly ditched role-playing, will actually find the kind of advice they can possibly give useful? What role-playing advice would be useful?
Because personally I read this stuff, some of it is what I do, and some isn't, but none of it is new to me. I'd be better served personally if they DID just ditch all that stuff, because I know how to role-play already. But novices do need that kind of advice to start, until they develop their own style. Honestly, if they went any further than they have into advanced acting or somesuch, I'd feel like they spent way too much time on it, especially since role-playing style is pretty subjective.
All just my 2 coppers.
My 10 year old son is far more anti-4e than I am. I have to caution him at times when he starts talking about the subject that I am sure the game will appeal to somebody. His first reaction to it, upon reading the 4e character sheets was that it felt more like a superheroes game than D&D. Pathfinder Alpha on the other hand, he seems to like.
Hey! Superhero Games are AWESOME!! ;)
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D&D is an RPG.
Pathfinder is an RPG.
4e is a tactical simulation. If you want, you can use it as the basis for an RPG, but then you have to make-up all the non-combat stuff yourself. This is little more then the 'deluxe rules' for thier miniatures.
Ahhh...I see how this line of "reasoning" works! You just make assertions and leave it at that. Woot! I can play.
3e is the worst RPG ever.
Pathfinder is the second worst RPG ever.
4e is the best RPG ever. Why is it the best? Because I said it's the best and I have defined the term "best" as "whatever I say is the best". Thus, through my mastery of circular reasoning and poor analysis, I have proven my point!
Watch, I can do more!
3e doesn't have rules for clipping your toenails. Clipping toenails is a major part of every game in which I've ever played. Therefore, 3e is an incomplete rules set! Woot!
I bet this works for all sorts of other debates, ranging from politics to religion. How enlightening.
Sebastion, come on man, play nice. I know you are pissed that people are coming out of the woodwork and slamming 4ed, but this thread asked for their opinion. What did you expect, that everyone who looks at the ruleset will love it? Its not threadcrapping to say that you think the rules look like a mini game. Its the man's opinion - expressed relativly politely, I might add. (and without all the hyperbole!)
I have not alway agreed with your posts, But i do respect what you have to say. I have thrown down with you in the past (on this very topic), but I have also defended you at times (Dungeon editorial debacle) and cheered your posts (too frequent to give examples). You have a way with words.
Sadly, this isn't up to your usual standard. Are you sure you're upset at "threadcrapping?" Because this time it reads a little like you're upset with anyone who shows the temerity to criticize 4ed. I myself have a very low opinion of the preview info, but will not post my opinion on the rules until I get to read them in their entirety at a B&N cafe.
Well...I gave up reading the thread on the beginning of page 3 when it was clear it had turned into a 4E bashing circle jerk.
Despite my disappointment with Paizo's direction, I wanted to give Pathfinder a fair shake. Unforutnately, some of the PFRG's advocates are so hostile and irrational that I just can't continue to hang out on these boards (talk about loving something to death). So I think I'm taking the advice I got right here on the boards a few weeks ago:
I'm going to ENWorld.
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Well...I gave up reading the thread on the beginning of page 3 when it was clear it had turned into a 4E bashing circle jerk.
Despite my disappointment with Paizo's direction, I wanted to give Pathfinder a fair shake. Unforutnately, some of the PFRG's advocates are so hostile and irrational that I just can't continue to hang out on these boards (talk about loving something to death). So I think I'm taking the advice I got right here on the boards a few weeks ago:
I'm going to ENWorld.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. I know you're a relatively old hand on the site. I at least would like to say that I'd be sorry to see you go. We need a variety of opinions to make this community strong. I would suggest that the boards are likely to get a little volatile for the next couple of weeks and then settle down. I for one am looking forward to the 4ed conversion threads. I think my best chance of eventually accepting the rules (chances are dim right now) will come from this community's conversion attempts.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well, I just finished my first 4e game, and I hate to report we encountered a major rules snag. You see, we had to make our new characters, and we had a new player, and the whole thing took about an hour. This wouldn't have been a problem in 3e, but the 4e DMG states that you can only spend 15-30 minutes getting ready before you actually play the game. Because we took so long to get ready, we couldn't even play!
I'm really angry about this. It's ridiculous that they would try to tell me how long I should spend getting ready to play my game! What if we want to sit around and talk about Iron Man or just joke around? Apparently, you're not supposed to play 4e with people you like or want to socialize with. I guess you need a timer to play the game right!
Ridiculous!
Well, I just finished my first 4e game, and I hate to report we encountered a major rules snag. You see, we had to make our new characters, and we had a new player, and the whole thing took about an hour. This wouldn't have been a problem in 3e, but the 4e DMG states that you can only spend 15-30 minutes getting ready before you actually play the game. Because we took so long to get ready, we couldn't even play!
I'm really angry about this. It's ridiculous that they would try to tell me how long I should spend getting ready to play my game! What if we want to sit around and talk about Iron Man or just joke around? Apparently, you're not supposed to play 4e with people you like or want to socialize with. I guess you need a timer to play the game right!
Ridiculous!
Did anyone shuffle cards as a quirk?
Well, I just finished my first 3e game, and I hate to report we encountered a major rules snag. You see, we had to make our new characters, and we had a new player, and the whole thing took about an hour. This wouldn't have been a problem in 4E, where the DMG states that you can only spend 15-30 minutes getting ready before you actually play the game. Because we took so long to get ready, we couldn't even play!
I'm really angry about this. It's ridiculous that they wouldn't tell me how long I should spend getting ready to play my game! What if we want to sit around and play D&D? Apparently, you're only supposed to play 3e with people you like or want to socialize with. I guess you can't be an old-timer to play the game right!
Ridiculous!
Smurf.
(My explanation for this is I feel that this thread needs some levity. For those actually paying attention to this post, I should draw attention to the fact that no person called SebastianTheSmurfed has actually posted anything like that thus far on this thread.)
See how bad 4e is? People would rather play Palladium :P
Heyyyy now just wait one minute, thems fighting words.
Seriously now, I just got WOWRPG Dark Factions book and while I was hoping for a little more in terms of Goblins, love the rpg's goblins, my girlfriend (yes I can know a girl) asked as she was stepping out to see the movie remake of the Mr. Ed TV show called Sex and the City "I thought you didn't like WOW because new D&D was too much like it." I explained one was a video game the other was an RPG based on 3rd. Her eyes just sort of glazed over.
But it got me thinking. For all the work WotC did in making 4th into WOW computer game (assuming that is true I still have not seen the rules or playtested, though I've been invited to a playtest game and am considering going, if for no other reason to give it a fair chance)did they not notice that WOW used 3.5 to make a good RPG game. It's a little more removed then say, Pathfinder to 3.5, but easily convertable and as I understand it very popular. I got all the books and they work fine. Its like Billzard knows that a computer game is not a RPG, and while they share common traits they are diff. animals, lets make the RPG very good, well get computer players and 3.5 players to buy the books. While WOTC seems to think that the two animals are alike, an can do and be the same.
P.S. Of course I might have to take all this back if Bizzard goes 4th edition, but my gut tells me they will not want to depend on Wizards GSL.
P.P.S. For the record told by girlfriend that I hope Mr. Ed finds love.
I see wizards thought police already got you. But you can be saved... They want to make you think that 3e doesn't exist any more...
I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing Orwellian undertones to WotC's marketing (and even game design).
3.5 is crimethink. 4e is doubleplusgood. 4e loves you. :P
See how bad 4e is? People would rather play Palladium :P
LOL :)
I see wizards thought police already got you. But you can be saved... They want to make you think that 3e doesn't exist any more...I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing Orwellian undertones to WotC's marketing (and even game design).
3.5 is crimethink. 4e is doubleplusgood. 4e loves you. :P
See how bad 4e is? People would rather play Palladium :PLOL :)
I randomly repeat my smurfy observation of other posts that, as far as I know, Steve Jackson games are the only company with access to Orbital Mind Control Lasers, and they are not in a habit of leasing them out.
I'm having trouble imagining a company which manufactures My Little Ponies of being involved in some sinister Orwellian design, or at least not unless the aforementioned Steve Jackson Games really are the smurfy secret masters behind Hasbro. :D
I randomly repeat my smurfy observation of other posts that, as far as I know, Steve Jackson games are the only company with access to Orbital Mind Control Lasers, and they are not in a habit of leasing them out.
I'm having trouble imagining a company which manufactures My Little Ponies of being involved in some sinister Orwellian design, or at least not unless the aforementioned Steve Jackson Games really are the smurfy secret masters behind Hasbro. :DTo be fair, I don't think Hasbro is the villan, its a victum. A victum of the Mouse God. If you don't belive what they can do to you, just look at Ms. Spears.
I'm having trouble imagining a company which manufactures My Little Ponies of being involved in some sinister Orwellian design...
Actually, I think you just strengthened my claim :p
To be fair, I don't think Hasbro is the villan, its a victum. A victum of the Mouse God. If you don't belive what they can do to you, just look at Ms. Spears.I randomly repeat my smurfy observation of other posts that, as far as I know, Steve Jackson games are the only company with access to Orbital Mind Control Lasers, and they are not in a habit of leasing them out.
I'm having trouble imagining a company which manufactures My Little Ponies of being involved in some sinister Orwellian design, or at least not unless the aforementioned Steve Jackson Games really are the smurfy secret masters behind Hasbro. :D
Okay, I just randomly googled 'Mouse God' to try to find out what this phrase might be referring to, and I got a reference to a classical greek deity of music & prophecy (Apollo) believed to have connections to mice. Now I'm genuinely confused. Could someone please explain to me what 'Mouse God' is supposed to mean in this context? I know Britney Spears is/was a pop-star, so I'm seeing a musical connection of some sort here, but I don't see what it has to do with Hasbro. Or is it something to do with an illuminati conspiracy I'm not supposed to comprehend? :D
To be fair, I don't think Hasbro is the villan, its a victum. A victum of the Mouse God. If you don't belive what they can do to you, just look at Ms. Spears.I randomly repeat my smurfy observation of other posts that, as far as I know, Steve Jackson games are the only company with access to Orbital Mind Control Lasers, and they are not in a habit of leasing them out.
I'm having trouble imagining a company which manufactures My Little Ponies of being involved in some sinister Orwellian design, or at least not unless the aforementioned Steve Jackson Games really are the smurfy secret masters behind Hasbro. :DOkay, I just randomly googled 'Mouse God' to try to find out what this phrase might be referring to, and I got a reference to a classical greek deity of music & prophecy (Apollo) believed to have connections to mice. Now I'm genuinely confused. Could someone please explain to me what 'Mouse God' is supposed to mean in this context? I know Britney Spears is/was a pop-star, so I'm seeing a musical connection of some sort here, but I don't see what it has to do with Hasbro. Or is it something to do with an illuminati conspiracy I'm not supposed to comprehend? :D
Go back to Google and look up Mickey. That might help.
P.S. LOL I didn't know about your reference, I'll have to remeber that.
Or is it something to do with an illuminati conspiracy I'm not supposed to comprehend?
Take care! Ask too many questions and we'll have to kill you.
I love palladium with some house rules and a very very very very strict premise with experienced players it can be a grate game :)
That being I understanf the economic preasures Wizards was under to produce a 4th edition with an entirely different rules set. They milked the 3.0 adn 3.5 cow to death. What I don't like is people telling me its the greatest thing since sliced bread and that the old system was to flawed to fix properly. Any game will have its warts and problems you simple have to choose the system that you like the best and deal with it. If a game is run well then all can enjoy it no matter what system is used. After all I got hooked when my halflings were just haflings and a suit of platemail cost 90 gp :)
Imagine an army of halflings dressed in plate armor chargeing in to kill a red dragon and instead getting their butts kicked by a mimic that looked like a chest. My brother was a bastard then...
I think the pre-release of 4E helped me to maintain my initial mindset. Continue with 3.X with the Alpha/Beta release of PRPG and when the game matures (other 3rd party companies who start using the SGL) move to 4E with hopes that PRPG 1.0 (August 2009) comes out as 4E.
I think the 4E is different, it's definately not the D&D I grew up on but it's still got a great flavour and excellent ideas that if put right (havn't read the entire books yet) could really make up a fun fantasy roleplaying game that appeals to both new and hardcore players.
The only downside I see is the money investment. This time around, I'm sticking with 3 core rules from WoTC and the rest would probably be Paizo & Malhavok (if Monte comes up with more experimental stuff :))
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I like aspects of the game.
No definite need for a cleric in parties any more (sometimes hard to find a person to play a cleric and that gimps the party somewhat at higher levels)
Simplified combat system (movement etc) means gameplay is faster, though less realistic. Depends on your players preference I guess. My group are pretty hack n slash and I can see them enjoying some of these combat rules
As a DM I loved the DM guide. It had some really good stuff in there about player types and their motivations (note this was based on the people behind the character). This type of stuff can help in planning great adventures that keeps everyone happy (not always easy)
Loved the skill challenges concept. Will pilfer this idea for my 3.5e campaign. Once again gives my less roleplay oriented friends a chance to shine in non combat encounters and gives some of those skills we have a chance to be used outside identifying animals or solving puzzles.
The clincher for me is that I invested lots of cash into 3.5 and can't easily reinvest into 4. I'll maybe get the 3 core books, but I like Paizo products too much to change over (particularly adventures). I have enough "fluff" books that we can convert out campaigns over if enough of my group decide to turn to the dark side, but would rather stick with 3.5 whilever Paizo keeps supporting it.
However, I'll give the system a year and then take another look. I'm betting a swag of new releases will increase the variety of "builds" available out there and might make this version more along my groups taste. I'll just have to get them to buy all the books this time.
Heyyyy now just wait one minute, thems fighting words.
See how bad 4e is? People would rather play Palladium :P
Bring it! :P
(See my awesome power as I manage to insult all Palladium fans and all 4e fans in a single sentence! :D)
Did you know? Some people play "Dragonborn" because they "Look like dragons!" WoW.
No, they don't. I've seen the picture they have beside the racial entry. They look like frogs or something. Definetly not dragons. At least, not my kind of dragons
P.S. Of course I might have to take all this back if Bizzard goes 4th edition, but my gut tells me they will not want to depend on Wizards GSL.
I doubt it, too. Before they get dependable on the competition, they hire (or buy) some RPG company and let them make their own rules system for a P&P version of WoW.
Heck, I think that if they wanted, they could get wizards in serious trouble like that.
with hopes that PRPG 1.0 (August 2009) comes out as 4E.
The Pathfinder RPG will be the Pathfinder RPG, based on 3.5. It will definetly not have anything to do with the GSL or 4e.
I doubt that Paizo would get any Wizards license again, seeing how the last one ended. (Though I guess we all need to be grateful for that one, since we got Pathfinder in all its glory because of that).
The Mouse God is a reference to Disney. In 2000, Hasbro and Disney entered into a collaboration to gether, and now Hasbro produces all of Disney's toy merchandise. However, as far as I know, Hasbro is still an independent company.Ah... Disney.
Thank-you. Being a UK resident may have helped me missed understanding this allusion until now. :)Andre Caceres:
*One of the links regarding Apollo I googled up*
Edit:
*And a link to the Wikipedia entry on Apollo*
Hey thanks alot.
3rd wasI see wizards thought police already got you. But you can be saved. Repeat:
3e is. 3e is. 3e is. 3e is...... ;)
Indeed not. 3.5 was... Pathfinder IS.
:D
After reading some more reviews/opinions on 4E, I still say (imho) 4E is definately not a worthy successor to D&D. I agree with the people seeing it more as a deluxe miniatures game than the RPG of old.
Furthermore, I agree that saying we will get some of the older stuff back in future products Bards and Gnomes for instance is just another money grab. As is the whole DI thing. Basically if you want the full product, you have to buy the expansions and the online monthly service.
TBH, I expected no less from WotC. Based on MtG and other various products. You need to buy Boosters sometimes to get what you want. Getting Gnomes and Bards in future "booster" products is the same concept.
I think at this point if it wasnt for Paizo, Id probably be on my way out of gaming.
3.5 and Pathfinder might not be perfect (at least not yet for the latter), but they are excellent for me and my crew. 4E is nowhere near 3E/3.5 though.
To tell some more of how 4ed feels degrading. Does anyone agree with me that these books feel like there was no effort at all invested in them? They feel and read like a 3ed starter set (with fixed hp and abilities and such) or even more accurate, like a D&D miniatures game dressed up in distasteful artwork? Cause i've had both of these, and the average 3.5 splatbook had more effort invested to make than any of these. It's like a cheezy supplement for children, like a bad 3rd party campaign setting or simplified rules variation then an edition basis.
No, not if you mean effort.
The books are well crafted, that's for certain. I don't think anybody would look at this book and say there was little effort or forethought put in this book.
The balance is strong, but the system is also much more ridgid. Multi-classing is less useful, there is more MAD in totality...not just giving up options-MAD like many of the changes pathfinder will have, but essential MAD built into the very base of every charater. Even with that MAD, INT is now a dumpstat for all intents and purposes minus the wizard. It will be harder to build a gish if realistically functionable at all.
Monsters have followed suit, and are now for the most part less complex to deal with the more inflexible character builds. They can be adjusted to be more complex, but their is less swing, which changes the monster challenge radically or gives it only minor usage...it changes some fundamentals as well it seems.
Rituals replace a huge chunk of spells and can now fundamentally be cast by anybody all from the same list. Many of the mechanics are so different it will change the flavor...this being one of the HUGE ones. Actual spells seem to be about dealing damage.
The system is also more combat-oriented (I wasn't sure such a thing was possible, but I was wrong).
Trying to be as objective as possible, I would say that many people will like this game better, especially if they have a problem controlling the stuff that goes on at their gaming table. The system is more cut and dry. It's "simplified & streamlined"....you can take that as either less cumbersome or Dumbed down, and my guess is depending on your initial opinions of what you heard, this will be how you see it. In truth it's a fair amount of both.
This may change if their is huge demand for specifics in the game, but then the game will fall back into some of the mechanical traps of 3.5, it will just have an entirely fresh set of them.
Like I said, this is a very similar but COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game than prior versions....it's a fundamental re-design in so many ways, it really is a different animal. If you hold balance and less swing up as the pinnacle of what you want in gaming then this system is probably for you. If you hold flexibility and option (plus can regularly control your gaming table) then I would say you are posting in the right place and stay put. This is of course ignoring the actual and accidental divergence of fluff that will take place due to the difference in systems, which is actually more of a concern of mine.
Aesthetically, the books are pretty great, but the PHB is just tiring to read. Lists and lists of power trees. I've read through all of the Ranger and Warlock since they were the ones I was most interested in, and I noticed they really did streamline everything down to the same class with the same damage potential but in a different way; the revamp of Warlock is pretty good in flavor, I'll give them that, but it's sort of bleh. Rangers are all either Tempests or Deepwood Snipers with no animal companions or spells- no thank you. Not to mention the Druid is completely out for who knows how many months before PHB2 comes out.
We all have to admit, combat is a huge chunk of game time, for most groups, but Wizards have no utility, Rangers only have combat flavor, even low level utility "rituals" cost too much money in my opinion.
The Monster Manual...I'm not decided on it yet. I really hate how little flavor text is involved. I don't know about you guys but even though I know those monsters from page to page, I sometimes just sit down and read it like any other book because it's full of imaginative fantastic things, which is why we all play the game in the end, or at least I do. Other than the flavor text sparsity, the monsters are more "user friendly" I guess, which is admirable.
I think WotC went too far with trying to piggy-back on their miniatures game; are they really selling so many of those things that they warrant crippling their vanguard product? Other posters are right in thinking it looks like a bunch of mini stat cards, because they really do. There is so much standardization that the game appears mechanical and dry. I think we all notice how much it looks like a pen&paper MMO. As much as I understand the company wanting a piece of that multi-million dollar pie, making DnD into one looks like they compromised what made the game really different from all of those.
As for now, I'm banking on Paizo to be the source of my tabletop gaming future.
Creative Director
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I think the pre-release of 4E helped me to maintain my initial mindset. Continue with 3.X with the Alpha/Beta release of PRPG and when the game matures (other 3rd party companies who start using the SGL) move to 4E with hopes that PRPG 1.0 (August 2009) comes out as 4E.
In the interest of managing expectations... this is not going to happen. The final rules for the Pathfinder RPG will be based in 3.5's rules, and will be very similar to 3.5; similar enough that, I hope, you can use the PF RPG to run 3.5 adventures or the 3.5 rules to run PF adventures without much conversion time at all.
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I read the 4E books. I played a 4E game. I canceled my 4E pre-order yesterday.
Those who like 4E: good for you, I really do hope you have fun. Our hobby is all about having fun and if this is fun for you, more power to you. If you think the rules are streamlined and you feel heroic, I'm ecstatic you're enjoying yourself.
Those who don't like 4E: I agree with about 95% of what has been stated as negatives to this game. After playing through a session, I have a complete disdain for the 4E ruleset and what WotC has done to the beloved IP that was D&D. IMHO 4E is a miniatures wargame in RPG clothing; while that is not bad in itself, in my mind and in the way my group likes to play D&D, it absolutely positively is not D&D. On the other hand, calm down a little. We're not going to play, and frankly if people want to disagree with us, that's our prerogative. In my personal opinion the game is dumbed down, the rules are streamlined to the point of idiocy, and the game plays like I've turned on my computer and I'm raiding with my level 70 druid.
To both groups. Drop the "you're a moron" attitude. If somebody enjoys the game let them be. If somebody thinks 4E is a steaming pile of horse manure let them be. We could all do without the vitriolic attacks on the PEOPLE you disagree with (Sebastian, I'm pointing at you amongst others).
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I think the pre-release of 4E helped me to maintain my initial mindset. Continue with 3.X with the Alpha/Beta release of PRPG and when the game matures (other 3rd party companies who start using the SGL) move to 4E with hopes that PRPG 1.0 (August 2009) comes out as 4E.In the interest of managing expectations... this is not going to happen. The final rules for the Pathfinder RPG will be based in 3.5's rules, and will be very similar to 3.5; similar enough that, I hope, you can use the PF RPG to run 3.5 adventures or the 3.5 rules to run PF adventures without much conversion time at all.
THANK YOU !!!!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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To both groups. Drop the "you're a moron" attitude. If somebody enjoys the game let them be. If somebody thinks 4E is a steaming pile of horse manure let them be. We could all do without the vitriolic attacks on the PEOPLE you disagree with (Sebastian, I'm pointing at you amongst others).
Good advice. You should consider following it.
In my personal opinion, I kept this email dumbed down and streamlined to the point of idiocy in case people playing WoW had trouble reading it. Frankly, you have a right to disagree with this post, that's your perrogative, but I have complete disdain for anyone that would find it insulting.
I think it's pretty bad. I was never a huge fan of 3e, but I played it grudgingly. I still prefer 1st and 2nd editions the most.
My biggest gripe with 4e is simply that it looks and feels like an MMORPG that has been adapted to a pen and paper medium. They should call it World of D&D or maybe D&D Craft. The artwork is reminiscent of the look of online games or video games, and the language is completely devoid of any flavor, and refers to things in a very mechanical way. Movement and spell ranges are expressed in squares, characters have "item slots," and so on. The abilities of characters overlap a ton, and most are based around the MMORPG principle of buffs and penalties. The game has lost all strategic and creative elements and has turned into something purely logistical and tactical. Resource management and "kit building" play out in tactical confrontations of buffs vs. penalties.
Many of the class abilities simply make no sense, and read like something you'd see in one of the Final Fantasy games. Why, for instance, should a cleric have a magical strike which not only damages a foe but heals an ally some amount as a power he can use once per encounter? It's just a thinly-veiled power-gaming stat move of transferring hit points from the enemies to the party, again consistent with logistics and tactics, but in no way in keeping with the themes of internally consistent fantasy, creativity, or strategy. I can even see it graphically represented, complete with a sparkling blue aura surrounding an ally as the cleric strikes his foe.
Magic item creation is now completely ludicrous and flavorless.
I feel like, with this iteration of the game, they have finally removed any trace of Gygax and his brand of imaginative gaming. I definitely look forward to broadening my knowledge of D&D alternatives.
Oh yeah... despite all their efforts to nerf the Wizard through the many editions of D&D, it is still "broken." They wanted to get rid of teleport as a "get out of jail free card," but the wizard still has one that's just as effective in Mordenkainen's Mansion. They can't even get their nerfing right.