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I am going to pull a club from Sebastian's golf bag:
The entire premise of Dungeons& Dragons seemed an extension of their Chainmail product, coupled with Avalon Hill Squad Leader ideals of constantly buying upgrades to keep competitive/current tacked on with the afterthought of their upcoming AD&D offering. It appears to me that they took all the things that seemed to already be working and rolled it all together to make a juggernaut product that will make them even more money.
This hobby has always followed this model. Create > expand > diversify > redefine the core > repeat.
CWM,
I get that you're all for 4th edition and that is fine, I don't share that opinion. I recognize that corporate policy is dictating design elements and think that is a bad idea. Regardless of what happened in the past, I think that corporate thinking is not the same as RPG thinking and has thus designed a revenue stream rather than a game I want to play.
Be well
Speech
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I recognize that corporate policy is dictating design elements and think that is a bad idea. Regardless of what happened in the past, I think that corporate thinking is not the same as RPG thinking and has thus designed a revenue stream rather than a game I want to play.
Every published game is a revenue stream for some company.
Second, what corporate policy is reflected in the design of 4e that is any different than any other business decision made by any other publisher?
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The entire premise of 4th edition seemed an extension of their DDM product, coupled with MTG ideals of constantly buying upgrades to keep competitive/current tacked on with the afterthought of their upcoming online offering. It appears to me that they took all the things that seemed to already be working and rolled it all together to make a juggernaut product that will make them even more money.
Oh noes an edition of the game that has a tactical wargaming aspect and sells splat books
STOP THE BAOT FLE WHIL U CN
sorry for being snide, but you might want to consider what your saying because this is what it seems to me, maybe i'm being unkind but i don't think i am. Wizzies didn't invent mini's they existed from the begining, wizzies have been selling splat books for a good long time, neither of these things are new. Your premise seems to be I don't like in 4th edition that which has worked expressly in 3.5 and to large extent in 3.0, which i like because they where i don't know something that isn't 4th edition and wasn't informed by the corporate will of the company dispite being you know, produced by the same company (even so far as to say the same company in the same state [being owned by hasbro])
So what's left is that Wizzies made a money making decision, something you've already said your okay with. One of these statements is not like the other....
but anyway, thanks for playing
Wow! This post could have come straight from an MMORPG board, complete with l33t sp34k, smug derision, circular logic even topped off with a false sense of superiority! Oh well...
My premise, is that corporate policy seems to be making the design decisions in this new edition and I think that is a bad thing. I think that other companies (*cough*Paizo*cough*) make most of their design decisions based on actual playability instead of what is the current most effective revenue stream. I get that they still have to sell stuff...as Paizo admitted in the past about putting females on the covers usually ensures lots of sales, but the choices they make in design are less likely to pander to the "What's hot/What's not" list.
My point-is that I don't like their choices both for their content and the reasons behind them.
Be well
Speech
I think I liked this thread better when it was in the Pathfinder forum.
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I think that other companies (*cough*Paizo*cough*) make most of their design decisions based on actual playability instead of what is the current most effective revenue stream.
Um, those tend to be one and the same. Paizo is making choices about Pathfinder to serve the customer base that wants 3.5 to continue. WotC designed 4e with an eye towards current prevailing expectation of fantasy gaming.
4e is actually incredibly playable, and the sales are showing it to be a desirable product. Just because you do not like it does not mean that WotC sacrificed playability for revenue. If it did then the game will die quickly. Bad games (RPGs or electronic games) do not last if they suck.
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Every published game is a revenue stream for some company.
Second, what corporate policy is reflected in the design of 4e that is any different than any other business decision made by any other publisher?
I agree that every published game is a revenue stream, but I think that WOTC is focused too much on the stream in 4th edition.
On your second question, the whole idea of synergy, which I mentioned in my first post. In my mind (and I admit not necessarily reality) WOTC took Dragon and Dungeon magazines with D&D and DDM and and mashed them together so they could capitalize on their combined popularity so ppl would give 4th edition a try. I think they took D&D a step closer to DDM because they already had most of the rule set for such a system. WOTC could also sell a ton of minis and further capitalize on the minis by creating an online element where you could buy virtual minis along with a bunch of other buzzes and whistles not needed for the game. I don't see the redesign as an evolution of the game but a step away from role playing.
Back in the beginning, EGG and DA were wargamers that took their wargames a step towards role playing and I think that WOTC is undoing that. Now, I know that this is the prerogative of WOTC to do since they own the IP and may do with it as they want-but I won't be following.
In any event, I don't want to argue this and most likely won't be posting on this thread anymore. I wanted to give my opinion and have, I see no reason to defend myself. I am not looking to be proven wrong nor swayed.
Be well
Speech
4e is actually incredibly playable, and the sales are showing it to be a desirable product. Just because you do not like it does not mean that WotC sacrificed playability for revenue. If it did then the game will die quickly. Bad games (RPGs or electronic games) do not last if they suck.
4E is apparently pre-selling very well.
I just wonder how many people (who don't read the various message boards) are going to get their pre-ordered book, start reading, and then go "what the hell is this"?
It would not surpise me if we will be able to pick up the (slightly used) core books on e-bay for pennies on the dollar a few weeks after release.
I just wonder how many people (who don't read the various message boards) are going to get their pre-ordered book, start reading, and then go "what the hell is this"?It would not surpise me if we will be able to pick up the (slightly used) core books on e-bay for pennies on the dollar a few weeks after release.
I guess you could say the same for the Pathfinder RPG when it comes out. But why would you? I don't wish failure on anyone's business.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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A reminder that this thread has been moved to the 4th edition forum, and that personal insults are not tolerated here. Sebastian, please chill. I'd rather not give you a timeout.
But think how happy it would make everyone!
Dude, he hasn't posted on this thread since Sunday. Others are using his name in vain.
My latest putting-"it's my opinion"-in-front-of-an-insult-doesn't-make-it-less-insulting-post (which I made last night after receiving yet another personal attack by name) got deleted. But anyway, I'm taking my ball and playing elsewhere.
Nah. I don't even have a ball. Or anywhere else to play. I've got nothing but the internet and my enormous ego, and the two go together like peanut butter and chocolate. I'll just find a new ball. I would find a new golf club, but that seems to be associated with violence, so I guess I need to find a new ball. Rest assured that so long as their are idiots posting on the Paizo boards (and I am not permenantly banned), I will be there, using new moderator acceptable ways to illustrate their idiocy, hoping each time, that my next leap, will be the leap home.
I guess you could say the same for the Pathfinder RPG when it comes out. But why would you? I don't wish failure on anyone's business.
Well then, obviously you haven't spent enough time on the internet yet. I need you to go turn in your message board street cred over in the licensing department.
Cheers! :)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Friendly response time!
Really, the "let's take what somebody else wrote and turn it into a personal attack is getting very old. Sebastian, I've seen you in every negative 4E thread there is. I think we all get it, you love 4E, you can't imagine why anybody wouldn't love 4E. I have no problem that you, or any other person love 4E, what I have a problem with is that you can't seem to get over yourself.
I feel very bad that there are so many negative threads about 4e. My sole wish is that everyone could play together and be happy all the time, possibly while drinking a sugary carbonated beverage and singing its virtues. It makes me sad and lonely, and every night I cry myself to sleep with my copy of H1 under my pillow, dreaming of a world in which everyone accepts the absolute perfection of 4e, which, in my ever so humble and entirely friendly opinion, is the best rpg ever manufactured by humans, computers, or particularly smart monkeys. I must admit that my prior posts discussing the pros and cons of 4e, recommending that people play the game they like the best without attacking others, and generally requesting that others simply refrain from calling 4e "a pile of crap" were just a cover for my absolute and unreasoned love of all that is 4e. I love 4e so much, I bought Shadowrun 4e and Heroes 4e just because they were the fourth editions of those respective systems.
My greatest fear is that I will never love anything in life as much as 4e. I can't understand how anyone would ever attack the very best rpg, designed to meet everyone's play style, and engineered to be the pinnacle of the art. It's like seeing a music lover refuse to acknowledge the greatness of Mozart while claiming that N Sync is the height of great music.
In my personal opinion, I have formed myself by reading the manuals and playing the game, 4E is a pile of crap. If you disagree with me, that's fine, I think its great that people can have different opinions and enjoy different things, but turning each and every response you write into a hate-filled insult-ridden diatribe on how we're idiots for having a differing opinion than yours is tired and frankly isn't doing much to enamor me to the Paizo community. Just because you thinly veil your "you're an idiot" response into a snappy repeat of what has just been said doesn't make it any less hurtful to others.
I don't see why we can't discuss the game without calling it a "pile of crap." Can't you dislike 4e without disparaging it? All I ask is to come here and discuss the game I love with the people I like and not be drowned in posts insulting the greatest rpg ever.
What I don't get is how this kind of continued attitude keeps anybody new coming to these boards and the damage you're doing to the community.
I submit that I am a victim. I see these rude comments about 4e designed to solicit an emotional response and provide the sought after emotional response. I thought people wanted a nasty response because they were using nasty language to communicate their dislike. I see now that I should simply accept that some people do not like the very best rpg on the market. Such individualized preferences are not subject to debate, so rather than attempt to debate, I would once again note that there has never been a game as robust, fun, well-written, balanced, or generally as wonderful as 4e. What really hurts is the fact that so many people are unwilling to embrace this wonderful product in addition to (not even in lieu of) their current system.
It's all so sad.
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I just wonder how many people (who don't read the various message boards) are going to get their pre-ordered book, start reading, and then go "what the hell is this"?It would not surpise me if we will be able to pick up the (slightly used) core books on e-bay for pennies on the dollar a few weeks after release.
I guess you could say the same for the Pathfinder RPG when it comes out. But why would you? I don't wish failure on anyone's business.
He wasn't wishing that 4E is a failure, he is specualting that a lot of people will dislike 4E enough after reading the rules, that they will decide to sell them. That is not wishing 4E to fail. Not only that, but given the number of "I just read the rules, and I don't like them." posts we have been seeing, it seems what he is saying is quite plausable.
But anyway, I'm taking my ball and playing elsewhere.
** spoiler omitted **
The people without constructive reasons for discussing 4e, or who think that 4e and PFRPG can't coexist will get tired of it within a month. For now, its probably easiest to avoid the most blatant "op-ed" threads.
And if you need a ball, just take one from those kids you're always chasing off your lawn. :)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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4E is apparently pre-selling very well.I just wonder how many people (who don't read the various message boards) are going to get their pre-ordered book, start reading, and then go "what the hell is this"?
My guess would be zero. Everyone I've talked to who has played the game and given it a fair chance loved it. I've even talked to people that don't normally play rpgs, and they told me it was the greatest game ever too.
It would not surpise me if we will be able to pick up the (slightly used) core books on e-bay for pennies on the dollar a few weeks after release.
I doubt it. The first print run will almost certainly be a collector's item and worth several times the original price. You should grab one now before the shortage of product becomes so severe that you can only acquire a pdf copy or have to buy one off of ebay with a significant mark-up.
He wasn't wishing that 4E is a failure, he is specualting that a lot of people will dislike 4E enough after reading the rules, that they will decide to sell them. That is not wishing 4E to fail. Not only that, but given the number of "I just read the rules, and I don't like them." posts we have been seeing, it seems what he is saying is quite plausable.
Edit: On second thought, I'll take Erik's advice and walk away. Sorry 'bout that.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Guys,
Stop being such dicks.
This goes to people on both "sides" of this issue.
If you cannot behave yourselves and understand that different people like different things, you're going to have to take a time out, and threads like this are going to get shuttered.
Let's police ourselves, eh?
I guess a trip back to the ol' stomping grounds is in order...
See you soon! :-)
FP
Did I forget where you're currently at? I thought you were still in my local area?
Cheers! :)
Guys,
Stop being such dicks.
This goes to people on both "sides" of this issue.
If you cannot behave yourselves and understand that different people like different things, you're going to have to take a time out, and threads like this are going to get shuttered.
Let's police ourselves, eh?
It may be best for threads like this to get shuttered, but I've removed my post before too many read it. The initial post I was responding to was offensive enough, but I guess having others defend it pushed me too far. Sorry guys.
Sad bug-face. :(
Did I forget where you're currently at? I thought you were still in my local area?
Cheers! :)
State capitol currently, my wife and I don't move to "the 'dell" across the lake till August.
Do you think Eric Mona interpreted my bit earlier as a threat?
Hehe, I think someone threatening his pet baby might have brought him out instead. ;)
I feel like Nietzsche over here staring into the Abyss and all that.
Edit: Why can't I spell?
Hehe, I think someone threating his pet baby might have brought him out instead. ;)
I feel like Nietzsche over here staring into the Abyss and all that.
Missed the bit about a "pet baby," I'll look later.
As for the Abyss, dark sunglasses help when it stares back...
Well, I actually went and edited the original post before too many saw it, although you actually quoted it in full first. :P
Still, removing it makes me feel better, in a karmic sorta way. Less bad thoughts directed towards me equals good.
Whenever my players spend an inordinate amount of time searching an empty area (something they seem prone to do, whilst ignoring rooms festooned with hidden goodies) I liked to tell them "You see nothing, and nothing sees you". Always made them high tail it out of there.
Cheers! :)
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crosswiredmind:
I have some reservations about whether Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro moving product sucessfully from their warehouse out into the hands of distributors (what I take it that you mean by 'sales' in this case) indicates that the product will be generally regarded as desirable by the customer base.
I would prefer to wait until after the release date- and perhaps until the run-up to Christmas- for sales data which I would regard as valid for the purpose of determining if 4E has general appeal.I am still waiting to see 4E in my friendly local books store with a cafe, to make my mind up regarding whether I would be interested in playing 4.0 or not.
I would normally agree on the wait and see if it were not tops on Amazon. Those are sales to people that want the game.
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I would normally agree on the wait and see if it were not tops on Amazon. Those are sales to people that want the game.
AND/OR people who want to take advantage of a pre-order discount for a game they may or may not want...
As a businessman you should know the effect "saving" has on people.
Yeah, but I have yet to discount anything as my sales have been really good.
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Yeah, but I have yet to discount anything as my sales have been really good.
Kudos to you and your company!
But that wasn't a response to my real point. The number of (discounted) pre-orders is not neccessairly made up 100% of people who know what the system will entail.
Majority satisfied or knew what they were getting? Maybe.
Some pleasently surpised? Possibility
Some unpleasently surpised? Possibility.
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Yeah, but I have yet to discount anything as my sales have been really good.Kudos to you and your company!
Thank you. I aim to please (believe it or not).
But that wasn't a response to my real point. The number of (discounted) pre-orders is not neccessairly made up 100% of people who know what the system will entail.
Majority satisfied or knew what they were getting? Maybe.
Some pleasently surpised? Possibility
Some unpleasently surpised? Possibility.
Any product sold will be enjoyed by a certain percentage of those that buy it. Some will be disappointed.
Games are complex things, so i expect more people will buy them not really knowing if they will really like it. I have a barely used copy of Shatterzone that can testify to that dynamic.
I assume that the breakdown of YAY! to BOO! will be much the same with 4e as it was with 3e and 3.5. I know that many of the folks here will not agree but that's ok.
If i am correct then 4e sales are already indicating a positive future for this industry.
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If i am correct then 4e sales are already indicating a positive future for this industry.
That's the crux isn't? We'll have to wait and see if your or someone else's predictions come true.
For the record, I want a positive future for the RPG industry. I think that's one thing everyone posting here can agree.
Where we differ is where it'll come from or if it will come at all.
Game On.
FP
No, they don't. I've seen the picture they have beside the racial entry. They look like frogs or something. Definetly not dragons. At least, not my kind of dragons
Did you know? Some people play "Dragonborn" because they "Look like dragons!" WoW.
Our conclusion was that they looked rather like hedgehogs.
I think WotC went too far with trying to piggy-back on their miniatures game; are they really selling so many of those things that they warrant crippling their vanguard product?
I suspect that profit-wise, miniatures provide a far, far greater margin than the books.
Great point. This is also true of our goup. We started with Dragonwarriors, moved to Warhammer rolplay, went to Earthdawn (greatest roleplay books to read ever...terrible mechanincs though), now we play 3.5 D&D.
That's because Earthdawnp was developed by one of the greatest creative minds in the RPG industry. If I wanted to be really insulting, I would point out that he had nothing to do with 4e. ;)> Some of his former cohorts did though. I can't say they learned anything from the relationship.
To address the initial question: No. WotC burned the bridge to this customer some time shortly after the "PR" blitz began, not that anything I've seen or read in the core books (or anywhere else) could have persuaded me to play or DM 4E. I had no 4E pre-order to cancel, but I did cancel my PFRPG pre-orders and subscriptions some time back as, in my opinion, one of the Paizo staff is a "dick" (to quote Eric), and I see no reason to support a company that will censor other forum posters while still allowing someone from within to come on the boards and spew their crap with impunity. It is amusing to drop by and watch the frolicking once and a while though.
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No. WotC burned the bridge to this customer some time shortly after the "PR" blitz began *snip snip snip* but I did cancel my PFRPG pre-orders and subscriptions some time back as, in my opinion, one of the Paizo staff is a "dick" (to quote Eric), and I see no reason to support a company that..*snip snip yawn snip*
So if you hate WOTC, 4E, and Paizo so much, why are you wasting time on talking about any of it... oh wait..
It is amusing to drop by and watch the frolicking once and a while though.
I can't find a polite way to say that you and unnamed employee seem to be very much alike that if being "amused" by other people is your motivation for coming to a forum that's about things you don't like.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Oh come on! This is the type of post I live for!!! I'm dying here, Gary, dying!!! Can you look away for a minute so I can respond? Just one minute? I promise, I won't mention 4e or anything, and I probably won't use the words douche, thin skinned, or cry-baby! Seriously.
No?
Sigh.
To address the initial question: No. WotC burned the bridge to this customer some time shortly after the "PR" blitz began, not that anything I've seen or read in the core books (or anywhere else) could have persuaded me to play or DM 4E. I had no 4E pre-order to cancel, but I did cancel my PFRPG pre-orders and subscriptions some time back as, in my opinion, one of the Paizo staff is a "dick" (to quote Eric), and I see no reason to support a company that will censor other forum posters while still allowing someone from within to come on the boards and spew their crap with impunity. It is amusing to drop by and watch the frolicking once and a while though.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Wow. Never in a billion years would I have assumed that the offending employee was McArtor.
I'm a surly bastard when prodded, and Jason certainly has his moments. And let's just say it's a good thing Sarah doesn't post on the boards when she gets cranky.
But Mike? Yowzers.
Only the Shadow knows what dickage lurks in the heart of designers . . .
I'm not really sure why I was moved to post that . . . other than that someday when "dickage" ends up in the dictionary I'm totally claiming credit.
Oh, and . . .
Please don't construe this post as implying actual dickage on the part of Mike . . .
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Wow. Never in a billion years would I have assumed that the offending employee was McArtor.
I'm a surly bastard when prodded, and Jason certainly has his moments. And let's just say it's a good thing Sarah doesn't post on the boards when she gets cranky.
But Mike? Yowzers.
Let me preface this by saying I've never read the posts of a Paizo staffer I haven't liked. I've found the staff to be friendly, knowledgeable, and even tolerant of @$$#@^$ like me. In short, you guys have really impressed me with customer service and interaction.
That said, I think I'd have to say I enjoy Mike's posts the most out of Paizo's staffers. My reasons:
1. We have similar interests (the horror, a lawyer-to-be who likes anime).
2. I like his writing style AND the stuff he (obviously) enjoys writing (I'm dying to see what he can do with a Pathfinder book of magical traditions).
3. When we pick on him, he picks back! The ability to take a joke and return the favor is something everyone (myself included) should develop further.
So I'm also a little shocked to see someone describe Mike as male genitalia.
Oh well.
FP