I'm kind of dissappointed to see that the rogue is still the only class with trapfinding. It would be a simple compromise to give it to both ranger and bard, while keeping disable device a class skill only for rogues.
This gives rogues an added +3 bonus over the other classes (bar half-elf bards/rangers who choose disable device as their class skill and 19th level bards) to the rogue, making them still the best at dealing with traps.
It's a simple change, doesn't really harm backwards compatability in any way, and adds a great amount of flexibility and choice to the rules and classes, and hell makes Curse of the Crimson Throne much more manageable in the trap department for the Iconic party. But the flexibility, and removal of the "need" a rogue outlook is a great boon to the game, it gives people options. Which is one of the goals of the Pathfinder RPG, isn't it?
[I am loving the three last classes to be added, especially the monks maneuvre training.]
Ranger yes, Bard no.
Definately, its a logical addition. And again its a very simple one to enact. No change in the rulesm just adding trapfinding to both ranger and bard, won't really power them up even, in fact it takes away one skill if they even want to make use of trapfinding.
Which opens up the idea, if the ranger can trapfind and takes Disable Device, the rogue doesnt have to and can use his kill points elsewhere, not that a rogue really lacks in the skills department.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd rather see a change in the meaning of trapfinding.
step 1) Remove the 20+ needs trapfinding to find. It's arbitrary and a kludge.
set 2) Trapfinding is a result of the rogue's special training, a 'spider sesne' as it were. When passing within 10 feet of a trap, or its trigger, the Dm rolls a search check for the rogue. If he makes it then he spots the trap without needing to stop and search.
This way, anyone can search, the Rogue just does it faster and easier.
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set 2) Trapfinding is a result of the rogue's special training, a 'spider sesne' as it were. When passing within 10 feet of a trap, or its trigger, the Dm rolls a search check for the rogue. If he makes it then he spots the trap without needing to stop and search.
This way, anyone can search, the Rogue just does it faster and easier.
Agree, although I'd say Rangers could do it too in wilderness settings.
Oh, I am all for event traps. Traps that take a few rounds and require the PC's to try and lessen its effects.
But a simple proposed change would be what I'm suggesting, also like the idea of removing 20+ and making trapfinding a 'spider sense' .
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I'm in agreement that trapfinding should not be rogue only. It hurts players arbitrarily when running modules (I'm looking at you RotR) that have lots of traps and no rogue, and I don't want to tell someone who doesn't want to play a rogue (which happens often, very few of the people I play with like playing rogues, but rangers and bards are never hard to find). If a party role is set up so that you need a specific class to fill the role then you can't then release 8-10 classes in a game that's designed to have 4 players most of the time. It ultimately just forces someone to play something they didn't have in mind or causes a lot of hurt for no reason.
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I've tossed out my thoughts on this in a couple of other places, but since this is actually the correct place to put it, I figure I may as well restate my idea here.
Basically, I like the idea that any class can find and disable traps, assuming they have the skill points in it(and with rogues being the only ones with disable as a class skill, they will be able to surpass others in this).
However, to make rogues really special in this regard and to have them stand out in their ability, I essentially treat Trapfinding in the same way that Elves treat secret doors. Basically, anytime that a rogue passes within 5ft of a trap they get an automatic search check.
This speeds things up a lot since if the party has a rogue in the lead the player no longer has to announce they are searching every hallway or doorway for traps. I see it in some ways a lot like the ranger with track now, anyone can do it, but no one can do it like they can. A rogue knows traps so well they are just always alert for them.
-Tarlane
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set 2) Trapfinding is a result of the rogue's special training, a 'spider sesne' as it were. When passing within 10 feet of a trap, or its trigger, the Dm rolls a search check for the rogue. If he makes it then he spots the trap without needing to stop and search.
However, to make rogues really special in this regard and to have them stand out in their ability, I essentially treat Trapfinding in the same way that Elves treat secret doors. Basically, anytime that a rogue passes within 5ft of a trap they get an automatic search check.
Same thing, right? (except for the 5'/10' thing). I like it.
Ranger yes, Bard no.
I agree.
A resounding yes. Missing a rogue can be as crippling as missing a cleric in 3.5.
To clarify, my vote is to remove the rule that says a trap with DC higher than 20 requires a character with the trapfinding ability. Also, I vote that trapfinding be made into an auto-detect ability. Lastly, I vote that it should be made into a feat that Rogues get at first level--possibly Rangers, too, and not just in wilderness environments, because remember: Rangers have Knowledge(dungeoneering) as a class skill!!
P.S. It always used to piss me off to read the rule that states "A rogue (and only a rogue) can detect traps with a DC higher than 20" to which I would reply *cough* or a cleric with the Find Traps spell *COUGH*
Clerics can do everything :|
I'd rather see a change in the meaning of trapfinding.
step 1) Remove the 20+ needs trapfinding to find. It's arbitrary and a kludge.
set 2) Trapfinding is a result of the rogue's special training, a 'spider sesne' as it were. When passing within 10 feet of a trap, or its trigger, the Dm rolls a search check for the rogue. If he makes it then he spots the trap without needing to stop and search.
This way, anyone can search, the Rogue just does it faster and easier.
I keep asking for this (which has been my houserule for some time now) since the first Alpha.
And to counter the argument that the elven secret door sense is a drag: (sorry, I'm repeating myself here, said that in another thread already)
This could work very well: As soon as someone is about to trigger a trap (which forces the DM to take action, anyway), the rogue gets to make his check. If he detects the trap, he can warn them as an immediate action - or, if you don't want to make it that easy, let them succeed on an initiative check against the triggerer. This could actually add some excitement to the whole process.
There would be two small things about this:
1. Disabling them. I say that this, like detecting, is possible for everyone. You trained in disable device, so you should be able to use it. To compensate the rogue for his loss of exclusive rights, he could get a bonus on disable device (maybe equal to 1/2 class level, like bardic knowledge and a ranger's track).
2. Magic traps. Those are the only ones where I could see that not everyone can do it, but then again, I'd say that spellcasters should be able to see them, too - so I say let everyone detect them, maybe by sublte signs of magic. As for disarming them: That might be something I could see as rogue only - at least via disable device. Others should be able to deactivate them via dispel magic or the proper counterspell.
I would have to add another voice (of reason) to this. Give rogues a bonus to trapfinding and allow either everyone to find traps or atleast Rangers/Bards (specifically Rangers).
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Hallelujah!
I am vindicated!
I thought I was the only one who felt this way!
We keep hearing about the party roles being 'warrior, divine caster, arcane caster and scout', when in reality, the players are forced to play 'warrior, cleric (for turning), wizard (for versatility), and rogue (for traps)'.
The only class that can be swapped in a 4-person party (assuming the standard quota and type of challenges) is the warrior-type, so all the other classes basically won't appear, except as the 'spare'.
I've seen plenty of groups vetoing someone's choice of PC at the character-generation stage, except when there are 5 or more players ("Well, we have a wizard, so we can allow you to be a sorceror, I suppose...").
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set 2) Trapfinding is a result of the rogue's special training, a 'spider sesne' as it were. When passing within 10 feet of a trap, or its trigger, the Dm rolls a search check for the rogue. If he makes it then he spots the trap without needing to stop and search.However, to make rogues really special in this regard and to have them stand out in their ability, I essentially treat Trapfinding in the same way that Elves treat secret doors. Basically, anytime that a rogue passes within 5ft of a trap they get an automatic search check.Same thing, right? (except for the 5'/10' thing). I like it.
I also have been using this system for ages, and my players and I are really happy with it. I'd be totally cool with giving the ability to rangers in a natural environment as well.
I also like the notion of dramatic traps, and assert that auto-search trapfinding is a step in this direction. I put traps into battle encounters all the time. I feel okay about this because I know there's a decent chance that one of the PCs will notice said trap, at which point it becomes an obstacle in the fight. My players have also sometimes guessed that an area might be trapped based on terrain and enemy behaviour (and I'll admit, metagame knowledge that I'm likely to pull something like that).
If this rule doesn't go in Pathfinder, I'll continue to use it that way anyways, but my experience is it is good for the game.
I would also make trap-finding a feat that anyone can pick up, perhaps with some prerequisite.
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Matthew Morris wrote:
set 2) Trapfinding is a result of the rogue's special training, a 'spider sesne' as it were. When passing within 10 feet of a trap, or its trigger, the Dm rolls a search check for the rogue. If he makes it then he spots the trap without needing to stop and search.
Tarlane wrote:
However, to make rogues really special in this regard and to have them stand out in their ability, I essentially treat Trapfinding in the same way that Elves treat secret doors. Basically, anytime that a rogue passes within 5ft of a trap they get an automatic search check.
Same thing, right? (except for the 5'/10' thing). I like it.
Oops, was skimming through the posts and I hadn't noticed that second option in Matt's post, so I wasn't trying to steal his thunder when I was really just agreeing with him.
I'd be happy with either 5 or 10 feet, I just tend to lean towards the 5ft one because it matches up with the elven secret door thing, so there is an already in game example of it, and it still leaves rogues wanting to walk in front rather then just trailing behind the barbarian, looking over his shoulder and going 'You're about to step on a trap!'
-Tarlane
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Make the detection part of trapsense, which would then extend to barbarians, and in my version, monks. As a monk should be preternaturally trap resistant. Kind of like a spidey sense...some thing's not right...
Technically, aren't ambushes traps as well? So if a bunch of arcs are hiding in wait with their crossbows and spring the trap, those with trapsense should get a bonus to not be caught by surprise.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Technically, aren't ambushes traps as well? So if a bunch of arcs are hiding in wait with their crossbows and spring the trap, those with trapsense should get a bonus to not be caught by surprise.
I see your point, but I don't like this angle. Such a thing would throw a curve at the party but with out some sine like a trap leaves (tripwire, pattern in the dirt, etc) Euclid just say that they have a spider sense.
I appricate trying to think outside the cube, and such an idea may work for a prestige class or a spatial kind of feat, but I think this takes it a line too far.
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Technically, aren't ambushes traps as well? So if a bunch of arcs are hiding in wait with their crossbows and spring the trap, those with trapsense should get a bonus to not be caught by surprise.I see your point, but I don't like this angle. Such a thing would throw a curve at the party but with out some sine like a trap leaves (tripwire, pattern in the dirt, etc) Euclid just say that they have a spider sense.
I appricate trying to think outside the cube, and such an idea may work for a prestige class or a spatial kind of feat, but I think this takes it a line too far.
HAHAHAHAHA, good puns on my typo! I almost missed the "sine"s
I obviously meant Orcs... ;)
It shouldn't be required that you have to have a rogue in your group to play. Paizo give some more classes trapfinding. I still rogue should be the best at finding traps but at least make it where other classes can find them to at 1st level. Oh, and why I am on my tangent why don't rogues get a bonus to find traps?
I'd go a different route and completely change the concept of traps altogether.
As portrayed now, traps have a very low, or absolutely no dramatic value. They are very simple - you either detect it (trap bypassed) or you don't (trap suddenly appears and causes damage). Both solutions are ultimately unsatisfying to the players.
Compare it to how the traps are done in adventure movies - a trap is triggered, the characters find themselves in a tough situation, and then they pull out of it through their own individual skills/luck/whatever.
D&D traps should follow this pattern as well - walls that are moving closer to each other, only to be held by the Barbarian's superhuman strength long enough for everyone to escape; Monk that jumps through a series of wall-blades; Rogue that disables the mechanism while the rest of the party is counting their last seconds; a Fighter that shoots an arrow, disabling the trap; a Wizard that dispels a magical trap or a Sorcerer that blows the wall and creates an exit for the party.
I'm with you. The most fun we've had with traps in my gaming group has always been when they required some action by the players, like some of the old-school traps in Mud Sorcerer's Tomb. When the players are frantically trying to stop that impending doom, and the relief that comes if they manage to do it, are priceless moments, the ones you keep talking about for a long a time. I'm all for seeing more traps being designed that way.
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I vote that it should be made into a feat that Rogues get at first level--possibly Rangers, too, and not just in wilderness environments, because remember: Rangers have Knowledge(dungeoneering) as a class skill!!
/snip
Now I don't agree with this. If ranger can now find traps in a wilderness setting as well as a rogue's preferred underground/dungeon setting, then I feel rogues should get track too. His once exclusive class ability has now just been stepped on. So say we don't make this a trapfinding feat. With crossclass skills easier, a simple Skill Focus (disable device) now has the ranger just as good at finding and disabling traps in any setting, and can track better than any class. I'm sorry but that doesn't sit well with me.
I propose the folling:
1) Trapfinding be made a feat (with prereqs), which rogues get for free.
2) Rogues get a bonus equal to 1/2 their class level on Disable Device.
3) Rangers get a lesser trapfinding useable only in a wilderness setting, unless we want to make a feat for that (also with prereqs), as there was a "trap expert" ranger from the Dungeonscape book, but trapfinding replaced his track feature.
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/snip
I vote that it should be made into a feat that Rogues get at first level--possibly Rangers, too, and not just in wilderness environments, because remember: Rangers have Knowledge(dungeoneering) as a class skill!!
/snipNow I don't agree with this. If ranger can now find traps in a wilderness setting as well as a rogue's preferred underground/dungeon setting, then I feel rogues should get track too. His once exclusive class ability has now just been stepped on. So say we don't make this a trapfinding feat. With crossclass skills easier, a simple Skill Focus (disable device) now has the ranger just as good at finding and disabling traps in any setting, and can track better than any class. I'm sorry but that doesn't sit well with me.
I propose the folling:
1) Trapfinding be made a feat (with prereqs), which rogues get for free.
2) Rogues get a bonus equal to 1/2 their class level on Disable Device.
3) Rangers get a lesser trapfinding useable only in a wilderness setting, unless we want to make a feat for that (also with prereqs), as there was a "trap expert" ranger from the Dungeonscape book, but trapfinding replaced his track feature.
But a rogue shouldn't be the only one to have trapfinding...disable maybe, but finding, no, And, clerics have it also, just as a spell.. So technically a magic item with trapfinding could be made by a cleric...
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But a rogue shouldn't be the only one to have trapfinding...disable maybe, but finding, no, And, clerics have it also, just as a spell.. So technically a magic item with trapfinding could be made by a cleric...
And that's fine. I think it's fine for other classes to have trapfinding, I just dont think they should get it for free at the same power rogues have without giving the rogue something to compensate having one of their class exclusive abilities now shared with another class(es). Or make the other class(es) spend resources (feats, skills, exchange other class abilites, whatever) to do the same thing.
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Also, with the current rank system (haven't checked if it was changed since Alpha 2, but I'm assuming it's the same). Rogues essentially get a +3 for having Disable Device as a class skill. This would be in addition to any bonus to this check for being a rogue (usually +1/2 rogue level).Of course, what can be done to differentiate between magical and non-magical traps?
Right, but its the same for bards and rangers too. Bards get to treat any knowledge skill as if they had 1/2 their class level, including one they automatically have max ranks in. So now most bards will probably have two knowledge skills. Rangers get to add 1/2 their class to survival. So now we have a presidence with two other classes, namely the two most likely to gain trapfinding.
So why is giving the rogue a 5 or 10 feet sensitivity and 1/2 ranks really any worse than what the bard has? And if people are concerned about rogues more easily finding traps, then just bump up the Search DC to find 'em. Its no different than bumping the monsters to challenge the new core classes.
So in the end it would all even out.
The Bard gains a maxed out knowledge, plus 1/2 ranks knowledge.
The Rogue gains 5/10 feet sensitivity, plus 1/2 ranks Disable Device.
And the Ranger gains trapfinding (in any setting even), plus 1/2 ranks Survival.
I would posit that it makes the Rogue too powerful to have the unique ability to detect and disarm traps. Every other party member will be victimized by traps, but the rogue is able to find and remove them. Thus, the rogue is unduly advantaged by this rules quirk. If the power was made more accessible, it would be better-balanced.
To that I would say its the ranger thats overpowered in this situation. At first level a rogue has Sneak Attack, and Trapfinding. A ranger has 1st Favored Enemy, Track, and Wild Empathy. So now that's one more thing the ranger can do over the rogue(which trapfinding and disabling is the one niche they had). Rangers also get Favored Terrain now, the rogue's evasion, imp evasion. Bards get a beefed up version of a rogue's Skill Mastery. Yet other classes aren't giving up anything they have.
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To that I would say its the ranger thats overpowered in this situation. At first level a rogue has Sneak Attack, and Trapfinding. A ranger has 1st Favored Enemy, Track, and Wild Empathy. So now that's one more thing the ranger can do over the rogue(which trapfinding and disabling is the one niche they had)....
Ah, that's easy enough to solve. Let the Ranger choose between Track or Trapfinding, as he does between combat styles. As long as trapfinding is also a feat, like track is, he can pick it up later if he wants track right off the bat.
I think the monk should have trapfinding. Heck, it had it back in the 1ed days...
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I have found myself a fan of the Rogues-autosearch-for-traps, similar to the elves-autosearch-for-secret-doors ability, as it sounds like it would really streamline a major portion of dungeon crawling.
Count me in! It seems to be a popular opinion as well. Rangers/Bards having access to a feat or skill doesn't bother me either.
Ah, that's easy enough to solve. Let the Ranger choose between Track or Trapfinding, as he does between combat styles. As long as trapfinding is also a feat, like track is, he can pick it up later if he wants track right off the bat.
Track isn't a feat in PFRPG, it's just a use of the survival skill which fighters get now too. So rangers, druids, barbarians, and fighters can all track via class skills with no feat.
My vote would be leave the rogue with trapfinding, but have this ability allow a free check to detect any trap (mechanical or magical) before triggering it (like elves get with secret doors). Also apply the rogue's trap sense bonus to this check.
Allow any mechanical trap to be found by deliberate searching (via Perception checks)and create a feat to allow the detection of magical traps. So a ranger with the 'Detect Magical Traps' feat still has to actively look for them and doesn't get a bonus to the check like a rogue does.
This has the advantage of speeding up gameplay by not requiring the rogue to search a zillion times in areas where there might be a trap and allows the party to handle traps without needing a rogue.
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Ah, that's easy enough to solve. Let the Ranger choose between Track or Trapfinding, as he does between combat styles. As long as trapfinding is also a feat, like track is, he can pick it up later if he wants track right off the bat.Track isn't a feat in PFRPG, it's just a use of the survival skill which fighters get now too. So rangers, druids, barbarians, and fighters can all track via class skills with no feat.
Right, that's what I was going to mention. Again, this is what I would do:
1) Make trapfinding a feat. I cool with that. You want to spend a feat on it? Ok then. Rogues get it for free obviously.
2) Rogues get 5 or 10 foot trap sensitivity. I would also like to see 1/2 class level to Disable Device, but that's a bit of a pidgeon hole even for me (who feels a rogue should be more of a thief and less of a warrior-type. Sadly there are some rogues who might not take Open Lock and Disable Device, strange but true!).
3)... I had a 3rd... um... well those two look good enough for me.
I just don't feel that other classes should be able to help themselves to another class's unique class abilities without compensation or cost.
There is of course another option:
- drop the rule about trapfinding completly.
Search DCs of 21+ are a restriction for themselves, so why restricting it even further to only allow rogues to only TRY to find them?
Instead of Trapfinding I would give the rogue either:
a) rogue talent
b) the above mentioned "spider sense"