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I am currently playtesting a half-orc cleric on my Monday morning game and have run into a big problem with Spellcraft. I am trying to pull off a melee based cleric who boosts himself and wades into enemies, healing himself as needed. One slight problem, now that Concentration and Spellcraft have been condensed, the ability to cast spells defensively is now based on Int. So currently at 4th level I have a +7 in Spellcraft (and that's only because I put a 12 in Int to balance out the -2 for half-orc). The odds of me actually being able to cast a spell in melee combat are not near good enough to risk. I have a few 2nd level spells which would be DC 17 Spellcraft check to cast defensively. That means I only have a 55% chance of getting the spell cast. (On a side note, I was unable to find defensive casting listed, so I'm assuming its still the same as 3.5.) Even combat casting would still leave about 25% chance of completely botching a spell.
The Wizard (on the other hand) would be great at casting defensively while the sorcerer would be in the same boat as the cleric. A good wizard will have an 18 Int and end up with a +11 Spellcraft even without combat casting. My complaint/question therefore, is why did defensive casting get changed into something that a Wizard is best at? Before, it was based on Con and those who were going to spend time in melee would normally have the higher Con bonuses which made sense. While there are always the rare melee focused wizard, it just does not seem to fit why the ability to cast defensively is based on Int. I would love to see it be pushed towards either Con or Dex even since that just makes more sense to me. Let's not make it so only Int based casters are able to make good use of that ability.
I've seen other people suggest splitting Spellcraft and Concentration in other threads, but couldn't find one just dealing with the issue in its own thread so I wanted to get other people's ideas, and maybe even get Jason's thoughts on the upcoming AR 3. (Yeah, I know he can't give too much stuff away, but it'd be nice to know if something were coming down the line on this issue.) This has been my frustration with this character, so I'd love to hear what other people who are currently playing casters think about Spellcraft.
Grace and Peace,
Jeff
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I, too, would like the system to move away from an Intelligence-only based mechanic for casting spells during combat. At the same time, I don't want to see a return to the Constitution-based Concentration skill. I'm not sure about creating a separate skill for each type of magic, because of the increasing complexity involved...not to mention the difficulty of backward compatibility with v3.5.
The description of the skill says, "Spellcraft is used whenever your knowledge and skill of the technical art of casting a spell comes into question."
In terms of identification of a spell being cast, I'm okay with intelligence, I guess. It makes about as much sense as having everyone use intelligence for their Search checks (as it was in v3.5). One could make the argument that a sorcerer who sees a spell being cast will use what he knows about magic to determine what is happening. Spellcraft could also be viewed as a field of study, rather than an intuitive application of knowledge already possessed, which would more firmly entrench it in the realm of the Intelligence-based skills. Of course, it also makes it sound a lot like Knowledge (arcana) and makes one wonder if the skill shouldn't go away altogether.
Regardless, the intelligence-based interpretation means that it definitely doesn't play well with its use to cast spells in combat. I think the difficulty is in how to get rid of or modify the Concentration skill so that it makes sense.
Concentration as a Constitution-based skill was always kind of muddled in my mind. Your ability to focus and "concentrate" is not necessarily tied to how healthy you are...I don't think one's constitution is even a major part of your ability to concentrate. The various dictionary definitions of "Concentration" refer to intense mental effort, diligence and attention. In that context, it does make sense that one's ability to concentrate is based on intellect.
However, I have seen plenty of people with below-average IQ who can concentrate and maintain focus through the worst conditions. If Charisma is defined as one's force of personality, wouldn't that be the proper attribute? Or why not Wisdom, since it serves as the basis of will saving throws? This is getting off the point, though.
For casting in adverse situations, why not take it out of spellcraft or any other skill and make it a combat mechanic with a simple caster level check modified by the applicable spellcasting attribute against the DCs as defined in the current Spellcraft skill description?
By moving spell identification under the Knowledge skill umbrella and applying the above mechanic, you could eliminate Spellcraft altogether, and maintain a sense of mechanical and "metaphysical" consistency. I'm sure there are holes in this suggestion, but it's my first attempt at a solution.
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I'm beginning to feel like a thread killer. (Maybe I'm just not that interesting...) However, given the attention Spellcraft and Concentration are getting, I thought I should bump this thread.
To condense my earlier, long-winded post:
I think that the identification function of Spellcraft can be rolled into Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), and Knowledge (nature) skills, depending on the source of magical power.
The casting-in-combat function should either remain with Concentration or become a standardized combat mechanic utilizing a caster level check, possibly modified by the spell's relevant spellcasting ability.
Similarly, most of the effects of Concentration can be handled with character or class level checks.
Yep, it should be split away from Spellcraft. *And*, Spellcraft should be divided into Divine and Arcane subskills, because it often doesn't make sense that the party's cleric might know and identify high-level arcane spells and effects.
Well said, and I do agree. Spellcraft should get eaten up by Knowledge Arcane and Religion. As the methodology of one casting system may not be fully understood by another.
Concentration should likewise be left alone as its own skill, as others skills do call upon it when making use of them under duress. Open Lock/Disable device for example.
The agreement for this seems like it's largely unanimous.
Jason has explained that he had very sound reasons for merging Spellcraft with Concentration instead of with Knowledge, so I've no quibble if he leaves it like it is in the Alpha.
I'll just houserule differently, is all. Last night, I took the Concentration skill text from the d20 Modern SRD as the basis of my Concentration skill.
Edit: I'm using Wis as the ability for Concentration. So there!
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The issue of Concentration as a Con skill is because in its every application Concentration is used to overcome pain, illness, fatigue, or other detrimental effects to be able to perform an extended, focused action. I can personally clearly see the use of physical health and pain tolerance (Constitution) as the basis for this skill.
I can see your point. Maybe my problem comes more from the name of the skill. When I read the word "concentration" I think more broadly in terms of overcoming any kind of distraction. If the source of that distraction is something detrimental to one's health (as in the context of casting a spell or performing another action while taking damage), then Constitution makes sense.
But as an alternate example, my 6-year-old twin daughters (who are physically rather frail for reasons I won't go into) can get so focused on a drawing or other "craft" they're working on that they don't even hear me when I'm talking right into their ears. That, to me, is the epitome of concentration (and parental frustration...separate issue). In this case, their physical stamina has nothing to do with how well they can ignore a distraction to accomplish the task at hand.
It's difficult for me to reconcile the two uses of the term--and, therefore, of the skill. However, I think the issue comes down to a balance between realism and simplicity. The skill will be used more frequently against physically threatening distractions. Ergo, Concentration (Con) works fine for me. Regardless, the skill application needs to be separated out from Spellcraft.
Does anyone have an opinion on the concept of a caster level check for casting in combat?
As for Spellcraft vs Knowledge skills, while I still think that Knowledge makes more sense, if John has good reasons for keeping things as they are, then so be it.
My players will be pissed, but skills seem easy to come by in Pathfinder, so they'll get over it...
In addition to Concentration (Wis), I've added an Endurance (Con) skill that covers all the pain resistance stuff from Autohypnosis, plus subsumes the Endurance and Diehard feats (with DCs assigned). I'll see how it playtests; if it turns out to be worthwhile, I'll probably keep it; if it proves to be a worthless drain on skill points, I may dismantle it. I'll keep you posted.
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I think Knowledge skills definitely make sense as to the identifying of the different spells. As to using a caster level check in order to cast in combat, I'm not sure exactly how the mechanics of that would work out. With concentration having been a skill since at least 3.0 (sorry, that's as far back as my experience goes), it makes sense to keep it as a skill that receives training rather than just giving it to anyone, even though it is a staple of EVERY spellcaster. I mean, who actually creates a caster without putting max ranks in Concentration... er... I mean Spellcraft.
I think I understand what Jason was trying to do by combining the two skills, with spellcraft being how to craft a spell defensively, it does just kind of make sense. And if Knowledge skills did take over the identifying of spells would all characters be able to begin identifying spells rather than just the casters? Would the Barbarian with ranks in Knowledge(Religion) be able to understand the cleric casting Inflict Critical Wounds on him? There, I'm done playing the devil's advocate for now.
So if, and this is a big if, Knowledges were to absorb portions of Spellcraft, what attribute should modify the Spellcraft that allows you to cast defensively and do other "concentration" based things? Assuming that identifying, learning, and preparing (from the top of p. 47) let me know what you think about the following idea.
While typing this post it seems to me that everyone has been hinting at the same thing regarding concentration. It is not specifically tied to one attribute but seems to be outside of that sphere of skills. It struck me that the word Willpower seems to best describe most people's description of concentration as well as the description in the text. Why couldn't the rest of the list on p. 47 be tied to some sort of Will saves rather than a skill? Combat Casting could be absorbed into Iron Will, or something like that. The definition for Will save in the back of the PHB is "A type of saving throw, related to a character's ability to withstand damage thanks to his mental toughness." Now read the list of things that Spellcraft does and let me know what you think. If y'all think this can work, let's try to come up with a mechanic basing it as a Will save to do that type of thing rather than a skill check. I could be off here, but let's hear the opinions.
That's the rub, isn't it: there's really no clear dividing line between Concentration skill and Will saving throws; only an artifical one. The DCs could probably be lowered just a bit, and then Will saves would work just as well.
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Yep, it should be split away from Spellcraft. *And*, Spellcraft should be divided into Divine and Arcane subskills, because it often doesn't make sense that the party's cleric might know and identify high-level arcane spells and effects.
I disagree - knowledge of how magic works covers all of magic. The reason spellcraft and psicraft are split is because of the "difference" between magic and psionics; Divine and Arcane magic are different, but similar enough that they are both called "magic", and have various spells overlapping into both lists.
As a house rule, I have placed a penalty to Spellcraft checks towards unfamiliar magic, to recognize the difference between the two. A cleric who puts skill points in Spellcraft (to show his study of magic on a empirical level) should be able to identify spells they encounter - I've DMed for cleric PCs who knew next to nothing about how magic works (ie: little or no Spellcraft ranks), so one can't assume that all clerics are well-versed in the intricacies of magic.
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As for the caster level check, sucks to be a Paladin or Ranger.
Okay...that's a convincing argument. By my suggestion, characters that are supposed to be casting in combat would almost never be able to do so.
Yes. Why wouldn't he? In 3.5, the barbarian could take ranks of Spellcraft to do the exact same thing, and they were both cross class.
Agreed. The more I think about this, the more sense it makes to me that arcane spellcraft falls under Knowledge (arcana); divine, under Knowledge (religion); and druidic/nature, under Knowledge (nature). That last one may be tenuous, since druidic magic is actually considered divine and Knowledge (nature) is more about plants and animals than about magic, but I personally draw a distinction between clerical and druidic magic.
Constitution. For pain tolerance, health, and general ability to resist physical inclemency. This is the physical discipline to not interrupt what you're doing while you're...
Actually, saving throws are made both to avoid and shrug off effects. That being said, I still assert that "physical discipline" only makes sense if the source of the distraction is physical. In which case, rather than a Will save, the required roll would be a Fortitude save. For purely mental distractions, the Will save seems appropriate to me.
(But maybe I'm just overthinking this...splitting up the causes this way feels too complicated. Besides, taking away the skill means that there's no way to specialize in combat casting other than by taking the feat. All wizards would have basically the same chance at success because you can't apply ranks to a saving throw bonus.)
In the end, the original design of the game had this one right, Concentration is NOT Use Rope, nor even a little taken skill because it wasn't worth it. This is a highly valuable skill, that needs to have the same value for any caster to take. It also has value for thieves who find themselves disarming traps during a melee, or trying to swipe the needed bauble from BBEG while he's busy fighting the fighter on his front end. Keep it to itself, and keep it neutral in its point buy value to any of the above classes in question.
Okay...I concede the point. This argument makes sense to me. Keep Concentration and leave it as a Con-based skill. (I'm 0 for 2, today, I guess.)
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I think that the identification function of Spellcraft can be rolled into Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), and Knowledge (nature) skills, depending on the source of magical power.
This is bad.
If this is the system, when you ask a player to roll a check to identify something, you'll be 'advertising' what it is he is identifying by asking for the particular check. So, if your player sees a spell he doesn't know, and you ask for a knowledge (religion) check, you're inadverdently telling him that it is a divine spell.
The knowledge skills already have this problem. Roll a knowledge (planes) check. Hey guys, I failed the check, but it's probably a demon or devil - either way, good is the way to go.
I think that the identification function of Spellcraft can be rolled into Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), and Knowledge (nature) skills, depending on the source of magical power.
This is bad.
If this is the system, when you ask a player to roll a check to identify something, you'll be 'advertising' what it is he is identifying by asking for the particular check. So, if your player sees a spell he doesn't know, and you ask for a knowledge (religion) check, you're inadverdently telling him that it is a divine spell.
The knowledge skills already have this problem. Roll a knowledge (planes) check. Hey guys, I failed the check, but it's probably a demon or devil - either way, good is the way to go.
I believe the poster meant the source of power of the caster: Know(nature) for druids/ranger, Know(religon) for clerics/paladins, Know(arcana) for wizards/sorcerors. I could be wrong on his intent however.
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I believe the poster meant the source of power of the caster: Know(nature) for druids/ranger, Know(religon) for clerics/paladins, Know(arcana) for wizards/sorcerors. I could be wrong on his intent however.
That is exactly what I meant...but apparently I wasn't clear about it.
DeadDMWalking, I don't agree that merely rolling a skill check should be that much of a giveaway. There should be a measure of separation between player and character knowledge. Additionally, studying arcana or other esoteric topics could grant someone the ability to recognize that arcane/divine/nature magic is being used, even if a person can't identify the exact spell being cast.
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I'd like to see Concentration pulled out of Spellcraft, and I think there is general support for that.
Once that's done, I can see two things happening.
1) Spellcraft is used to identify all spells for all classes.
This is a good thing, this is how it works now in 3.5. Everyone should be familiar with this, and since this spell is frequently taken, there should be no problem with that.
2) Knowledge (arcana) has some of the function of Spellcraft. While I would prefer to keep Spellcraft as the name of the skill and roll much of (arcana) insto Spellcraft (excluding identifying creatures) I can see the designers eliminating spellcraft completely, and putting all functions of spell identification into (arcana).
For me, I'm becoming more and more strongly aligned toward basically using the skill system for 3.5. The only skill combinations that have my full support are Stealth and Perception (without Search). The reason those seem necessary is that there were skill situations where people were rolling multiple dice, and bringing that down to one is easier for me. All the other skill uses just don't seem as intuitive because I've been using the 3.5 skill system for a long time. I don't think the other combinations are necessary. And if we don't combine more skills, we can give everyone a blanket +2 to skills, which works very well for me.
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I tend to agree with you, DeadDMWalking. While I enjoy the occasional examination of the esoterica behind skill development, v3.5 Spellcraft never became a problem in any of my games, so I don't see a huge need to create something different. I like, too, like the combination of Stealth and Perception, but I didn't like Theft and the other combinations from Alpha 1.
That's the beauty of Pathfinder, to my mind. Because it's built on the SRD with modifications, we can "un-modify" parts of it to taste. The skill system is an excellent example: if you keep Stealth and Perception (minus Search), for example, from Pathfinder, and use the other skills from the SRD, eveyone wins: your group gets a skill list they prefer, Paizo still gets sales and support for their products, and other groups can still use all the Paizo groupings, or stick with 3.5, or make other combinations to taste (as being discussed in these threads). Great stuff.