I'm concerned that at one minute per level, once per day, the new bonded weapon might prove underpowered, underused, and unwanted. This is especially apparent when one considers the mid to upper levels, when a paladin usually has a solid magic weapon available (which can be argued, by virtue of an unlimited duration alone, to be more reliable and useful than the ability).
It's still early, and I'm going to mull over the changes before stating further thoughts, but even though things seem to be moving in the right direction my first impression is that the class remains underpowered.
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I really like the Auras, a Paladin is supposed to be a beacon to his allies.
I also like all the Bond options. If you don't want a Familiar/Animal/Warhorse, you have another option, not just a wasted option.
As to the value of the Divine Bond/Weapon, the ability to choose a weapon enhancement is the big boon. Having played a Soul Knife, being able to modify your mind blade to your enemies weaknesses by way of enhancements is a great advantage over a basic magic weapon.
I've only glanced over paladin, but I too like the Weapon Bond/Mount choice. I only wish they had changed smites to deal 1d6 per 3 levels (a little oomph overall and especially at 1st level, but averaging out to match 1 point/level overall).
I'm concerned that at one minute per level, once per day, the new bonded weapon might prove underpowered, underused, and unwanted. This is especially apparent when one considers the mid to upper levels, when a paladin usually has a solid magic weapon available (which can be argued, by virtue of an unlimited duration alone, to be more reliable and useful than the ability).
It's still early, and I'm going to mull over the changes before stating further thoughts, but even though things seem to be moving in the right direction my first impression is that the class remains underpowered.
This brings up two interesting points.
First, never more than 1/day is limiting, both for mount and weapon. To the extent of my knowledge, there are NO materials allowing you to summon your special mount more than 1/day in 3.5; this can be rather frustrating. A scaling times/day (once per day per five levels, maybe?) might be better.
Second, it's very unclear how the celestial spirit interacts with extant weapon properties. "These bonuses do not stack with any properties the weapon already has." Does this refer to the generic plusses, the special abilities, or both? Is this across the board, or only for the same - that is, does this merely mean that you can't make your +1 flaming longsword flaming again, or does it also mean you can't make it +1 keen flaming? What about +2 flaming? The sentence about "if a weapon is not magical" implies there's some stacking. Can a fifth-level paladin with a +1 longsword upgrade that longsword to +2 once per day for five minutes? Can he upgrade it to +1 keen? Can he do nothing at all?
As to the value of the Divine Bond/Weapon, the ability to choose a weapon enhancement is the big boon. Having played a Soul Knife, being able to modify your mind blade to your enemies weaknesses by way of enhancements is a great advantage over a basic magic weapon.
Yes, but the weapon enhancement(s) applied by a soul knife can be utilized indefinitely; the paladin option is extremely limited in usefulness by its duration.
In addition, its unclear if the the enhancement can be modified. There's no information detailing when the enhancement is actually selected, nor is there anything specifying a time when weapon properties and bonuses can be swapped out.
The bonded weapons does seem to need a llitle bit of clarification.
According to the description it states: "When called, the spirit enhances the power of the weapon, causing it to shed light like a torch for 1 minute per paladin level."
It then goes on to describe other enhancements the sword gains, leading me to my question of...
The 1 minute/level, is that only for the "torch effect", or does it also include the weapon qualities?
As the abilities description goes onto say:
"The celestial spirit immediately departs if the weapon leaves the paladin’s possession and does not return until summoned again."
Which, in of itself, could be an argument that the weapon properties do remain longer than the 1 minute/level and may very well last as long as the weapon is being wielded or on the paladin's person (held in hand or sheathed). Perhaps having the same duration as the summoned horse, 2 hours/level. While the actual torch effect is only enacted when the spirit is summoned.
Thoughts? Or am I just blowing chunks here. :o)
Director of Game Design
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The torch effects lasts for as long as the spirit remains. The powers are chosen when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until called again. The plusses do not stack, you take only the highest plus. The powers, so long as they are not identical, do add on. So, if you have a +1 sword. At 5th level, you could make it a +1 flaming sword for 5 minutes per day. You could not make it a +2 sword. I will see that this is made more clear in a future update.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The torch effects lasts for as long as the spirit remains. The powers are chosen when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until called again.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
in other words, I was blowing chunks. :oP
thanks for the reply Jason. Keep up the great work. :o)
"The celestial spirit immediately departs if the weapon leaves the paladin’s possession and does not return until summoned again."
I really dislike this, as well.
A paladin faces the villain, invokes the bonded spirit, and his or her weapon literally glows with divine light. What does the villain do? Promptly disarms the paladin, or uses some other means of causing the weapon to drop. Power goes out, threat averted; one of the paladin's big one time per day powers is wasted.
And this could easily be a common occurrence.
Obviously, I'm not a fan of the current duration, both conceptually and practically. I'd rather see this as the next step of the Holy Avenger concept; a weapon imbued by the paladin's deity to smite enemies of his or her faith. Why would such a tool be limited in its use, especially when a wizard can permanently enchant a weapon at a discounted cost and reduced expenditure of resources.
After all, its rare a fight lasts longer than a couple of minutes.
Well, that's the problem. A duration of "x minutes per day" is tantamount to "one encounter per day", which isn't all that fantastic in an environment where people are panicking about the fifteen minute adventuring day.
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Director of Game Design
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This is a valid concern. I am truly considering increasing the number of times per day you can use your weapon bond ability, or possibly allowing you to split up the total duration.
Two Questions: Does this aleviate the problem? Which option adds more utility without turning it into a situation where you basically always have the bonus?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Obviously, I'm not a fan of the current duration, both conceptually and practically. I'd rather see this as the next step of the Holy Avenger concept; a weapon imbued by the paladin's deity to smite enemies of his or her faith. Why would such a tool be limited in its use, especially when a wizard can permanently enchant a weapon at a discounted cost and reduced expenditure of resources.
Because then it lessens usefulness of wizards (and others who can enchant weapons) if yet another class can just create their own permanent magic weapon.
As for the brief duration, I look at it this way... the paladin is channeling divine energy and summoning a spirit serving their diety. Beyond game balance, why don't all of their powers function all the time to better benefit serving their god?
Maybe because channeling such divine power constantly is too potent for mere mortals. Perhaps its just an exercise in forcing the paladin to use wisdom and judgement in wielding the powers granted by his virtue. Perhaps divine spirits don't want to spend 24/7 waiting on a mortal warrior to invoke its power whenever it feels like because, like, maybe it wants to rest in peace rather than dwell too long in the world of the living.
However, I am a little put off by the idea that being disarmed can screw over your one use per day power.
I think the code of conduct should be modified so as to allow more mixed alignment parties, namely parties where the evil character doesn't have to have a caster hireling with the sole purpose of casting undetectable alignment each day.
Other than that, at a skim, it looks good.
This is a valid concern. I am truly considering increasing the number of times per day you can use your weapon bond ability, or possibly allowing you to split up the total duration.
Two Questions: Does this aleviate the problem? Which option adds more utility without turning it into a situation where you basically always have the bonus?
Mr. Bulmahn, I think you've got something there with split usage. It neatly negates the "disarmed" issue and solves the "once per day" issue at the same time.
Of course, if you're splitting it you'll want to express it in rounds, and if players are using it on a round-to-round basis you should probably make activation a swift action. A pool of something like... half class level plus charisma modifier? That'd give your average paladin something like four rounds when he first got the ability, and it'd scale up to something like... what, fifteen rounds? That sounds fair.
(Which, curiously, means that if your fights last about four rounds and you don't try and moderate your use, you're still getting something in the vicinity of one combat per five levels. Behold my prophetic powers.)
This is a valid concern. I am truly considering increasing the number of times per day you can use your weapon bond ability, or possibly allowing you to split up the total duration.
Two Questions: Does this aleviate the problem? Which option adds more utility without turning it into a situation where you basically always have the bonus?
If I had to choose one or the other, I'd go with an increase in times per day the ability could be used. That said, I don't think it solves the issue.
Truthfully, I don't see why a permanent bonded weapon is an issue. It's never going to be as good as a weapon created through traditional means of enchantment. For example, a level 15 wizard could potentially craft a weapon with a total +10 bonus: five points of enhancement, and five points of weapon properties. A paladin of the same level would have a weapon with a total +4 bonus; even if the paladin retained the ability to swap out how the bonus is applied (at will may be a bit much, but possibly daily, or even over a specific time period), such a weapon will never be on the same level of power as a traditional magic weapon.
If you did that it would lead to paladins changing thier weapons round to round and that is simply going too far.
Good point. Some kind of restriction would be needed here; could be something simple as "This ability cannot be used in consecutive rounds on the same weapon with different enchantments."
You seem to be missing the awesomeness of this power. If you have a +3 flaming sword at 8th level and activate this ability it can become a +3 Keen flaming sword. The enhancement bonus doesnt stack but the abilities add.
I understand this, but conceptually it doesn't fit; why would a deity grant one of his or her champions a boon that, by it's very nature, relies on the worldly capabilities of the character's equipment to achieve it's maximum potential? It doesn't make sense to me.
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Mr. Bulmahn, I think you've got something there with split usage. It neatly negates the "disarmed" issue and solves the "once per day" issue at the same time.This is a valid concern. I am truly considering increasing the number of times per day you can use your weapon bond ability, or possibly allowing you to split up the total duration.
Two Questions: Does this aleviate the problem? Which option adds more utility without turning it into a situation where you basically always have the bonus?
Agreed, sounds like a good option.
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As noted elsewhere by Jason Bulmahn, the hit die was incorrect in the PDF. Instead of d8, it should be d10. This information will probably be added to the PDF during the day. Of course, I couldn't be sure, I don't work for Paizo! ;)
Numerous pleas to change the Smite Evil from a lousy 1/day ability to a "+1d6/5 levels against evil critters" would make it a lot more appealing. Why do I suggest only 1d6/5 levels? If every weapon you hold from 3rd level to ad finitum would be a holy weapon, it'd be a bit too good.
The weapon bond could be similar to rage powers in one way; no need for consecutive rounds for it to apply. Furthermore, should the paladin choose a signature weapon so only it could be imbued with a divine spirit? It would effectively stop the aforementioned problem with weapon switching, and also make the paladin more ... concentrated, so to speak. In addition, making the weapon good-aligned when imbued with the spirit would be good, I mean, better.
Auras are nice, nothing to say about them. I wouldn't mind see having the Aura of Good have a meaning, however. It always felt like a completely useless class feature.
Should a paladin, in addition to curing diseases, be able to stop poisons? After all, diseases rarely have an influence on PCs, whereas poisons are often lethal.
Heh, think about it. They are already granting power to a person who needs decent weapons and armor to be effective in a fight. Why does the god taking a direct hand in making the equipment they already need better any differant?
I understand this as well. However, why would a deity bother boosting the equipment at all, if a paladin is already expected to possess decent weapons and armor. Conceptually, in such a situation divine aide would serve the paladin better in a form that is otherwise unavailable.
Personally, I always saw the bonded mount as a defining ability for the paladin. It was something they could not attain without their devotion, and even in a situation where it might not be useful to the paladin, it was a persistent example of the character's divine connection. As an alternate ability to the bonded mount, I feel it only makes sense that a bonded weapon serve this same role.
A power similar to this exists elsewhere in the D&D world in the highly debated and chastised Artificer. I think this function will be popular and powerful in gameplay...it certainly is useful for the artificer, yet the mechanic is a bit different.
Uhm, another subject...
The HD of a paladin are listed as a d8. I thought that the Hit Dice of classes would reflect their BAB progress table, and the paladin still gets the best BAB progression.
Is the d8 a misprint?
Here's a thought. Part of the reason I dislike the current concept is due to the fact that it can be applied to any example of the deity's favored weapon; a paladin of Iomedae would be able to apply the ability to any longsword. But the paladin is, in essence, bonding a spirit with his or her weapon; being able to switch out weapons doesn't make sense.
How about this: At 5th level, a paladin can bond a celestial spirit into a masterwork example of his or her deity's chosen weapon. The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus, is good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purposes of overcoming DR, and can shed light as a torch at will (let's face it, light is a dime a dozen ability, especially now that wizards, clerics, etc. can easily cast it at will). The enhancement bonus can be increased normally through traditional means.
In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus that can be used to apply weapon properties, as a standard action, for a specified duration (be it so many times per day, so many turns, or whatever else is decided). For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
The result is a permanent symbol of the divine bond between a paladin and his or her deity, but with only some of its abilities available at all times; the weapon properties still have to invoked to be effective. Conceptually, it seems to fit better. Mechanically, not much has changed.
What does everyone think?
Here's a thought. Part of the reason I dislike the current concept is due to the fact that it can be applied to any example of the deity's favored weapon; a paladin of Iomedae would be able to apply the ability to any longsword. But the paladin is, in essence, bonding a spirit with his or her weapon; being able to switch out weapons doesn't make sense.
How about this: At 5th level, a paladin can bond a celestial spirit into a masterwork example of his or her deity's chosen weapon. The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus, is good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purposes of overcoming DR, and can shed light as a torch at will (let's face it, light is a dime a dozen ability, especially now that wizards, clerics, etc. can easily cast it at will). The enhancement bonus can be increased normally through traditional means.
In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus that can be used to apply weapon properties, as a standard action, for a specified duration (be it so many times per day, so many turns, or whatever else is decided). For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
The result is a permanent symbol of the divine bond between a paladin and his or her deity, but with only some of its abilities available at all times; the weapon properties still have to invoked to be effective. Conceptually, it seems to fit better. Mechanically, not much has changed.
What does everyone think?
I usually play paladins. Have done for *cough* too many years. The ability to choose one of two options was a nice surprise and *almost* fits. However I have to agree with Heaven's Agent above (and in other posts). The mount is an example of the paladin's devotion, so the weapon spirit should be as well. I think the setup above is a good idea, with the use of 'channeling divine energy' forming the bedrock of how often. Perhaps the mount's usage can be tied into the divine energy remit as well? It would make sense.
Here's a thought. Part of the reason I dislike the current concept is due to the fact that it can be applied to any example of the deity's favored weapon; a paladin of Iomedae would be able to apply the ability to any longsword. But the paladin is, in essence, bonding a spirit with his or her weapon; being able to switch out weapons doesn't make sense.
How about this: At 5th level, a paladin can bond a celestial spirit into a masterwork example of his or her deity's chosen weapon. The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus, is good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purposes of overcoming DR, and can shed light as a torch at will (let's face it, light is a dime a dozen ability, especially now that wizards, clerics, etc. can easily cast it at will). The enhancement bonus can be increased normally through traditional means.
In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus that can be used to apply weapon properties, as a standard action, for a specified duration (be it so many times per day, so many turns, or whatever else is decided). For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
The result is a permanent symbol of the divine bond between a paladin and his or her deity, but with only some of its abilities available at all times; the weapon properties still have to invoked to be effective. Conceptually, it seems to fit better. Mechanically, not much has changed.
What does everyone think?
Now that looks like something a paladin would use. I would suggest allowing the +1 bonus to be applied as one of the following properties: flaming, cold, acid, shocking, merciful (stun damage), or Holy damage.
I vote the blade ability have it's duration be able to be broken up, but NOT into rounds. In other words, if you want to use it for a round, you use it for at least a minute.
This allows you get it for more than one encounter, but not forever. Also, I think you should then be able to "over-write" your duration with a re-use of the power, if you need a different power set.
This is a valid concern. I am truly considering increasing the number of times per day you can use your weapon bond ability, or possibly allowing you to split up the total duration.
Two Questions: Does this aleviate the problem? Which option adds more utility without turning it into a situation where you basically always have the bonus?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I would go with multiple short duration uses.
However, can i offer up the idea that the ability can ONLY be used when one or more of the enemies involved is evil or that the bonus' only apply against evil creatures.
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I vote the blade ability have it's duration be able to be broken up, but NOT into rounds. In other words, if you want to use it for a round, you use it for at least a minute.
This allows you get it for more than one encounter, but not forever. Also, I think you should then be able to "over-write" your duration with a re-use of the power, if you need a different power set.
I'm not entirely sure I agree with this. You can effectively swap Bane effects (or similar things - Fiery Burst for the Frost Giants and then Icy Burst for the Red Dragon boss) depending on what you are facing, seriously upping the fire-power in a fairly arbitrary way. I'm not sure that would be very balanced, since actual combat per day is probably a few minutes at most.
By the way, I take it that the d8 HD for paladins is a misprint?
Yes, confirmed by Jason in a different thread.
I would keep the Divine Bond ability at once per day. It will than be the Paladin's way of going 'nova' - he will save it for the important fight of the day, where it will enable him to shine.
BTW: I am happy to see the divine bond affect the weapon instead of having to take the power to summon a 'pocket mount' when playing a paladin - the mount summoning just irritated me for some time, so an option not to take it is great.
This is a valid concern. I am truly considering increasing the number of times per day you can use your weapon bond ability, or possibly allowing you to split up the total duration.
Two Questions: Does this aleviate the problem? Which option adds more utility without turning it into a situation where you basically always have the bonus?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I would like to see increase in times per day or I would perfer to brake it down to non contionus minium of a min per time and an hour for the horse
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I don't play paladins too often, but I would have to say I like the adjustments, and agree with a lot of the suggestions made so far in this thread.
One question that maybe is just going to end up a "house-rule" idea for my campaigns, but paladins are Lawful and Good ... yet have no powers geared towards combating Chaos. Is this deliberately to allow a Paladin and Barbarian to be compatriots? Or is it just the standard "the PCs should be the heroes and fight evil" logic? Would anyone else like to see some mention of the Law vs Chaos factor?
I'm probably in the minority here, but I REALLY like the holy weapon as a 1/day thing. Facing the BBEG, "your sword bursts into light as the power of your god infuses you for this last desperate struggle..." Yeah, that's cool. If it happens more often, it just sort of becomes another set of variables to keep track of.
Overall, I'd rather see it useable 1/day, lasting until a particular foe or set of foes is defeated (instead of some numerical limit), and maybe up the power a bit (e.g., let everything stack, or give it an automatic bane or holy quality or something).
What a wonderful gift this morning to see that paladin was out. I sat eagerly at my desk and scanned every word of it. For the most part I like the effort, and I think with some minor tweaks this could be perfect. I am also pleased that some of our ideas from the last "thoughts on paladins" thread got used. Here are things I would like to see fixed in paladin:
1: d8 hp, thank god its a typo I was pretty angery about that one.
2: I would like to see Paladins get some better will save.
3: I would like to see them get talents or "Divine Gifts" Similar to the rogue if only once every three or four levels.
4: Smite 1/day at early levels is too weak and 7/day at high levels can become crazy when your in the right campaign. I am still standing by the recharge time of every 3-10 rounds (suggest 5 for playtesting).
5: Smite damage could be shifted to d6s which are gained 1,5,10,15,20. Which gives paladins a nice 5-30 damage range at level 20, maybe add a feat that increases it by a d6 or two.
6:Also would like to see Smite damage be typed and able to bypass DR as you advance.
7: Dont mind the drop in the number of paladin spells since it seems to be happening to everyone but maybe we could get charisma based cast then? Not really a strong point for me since their a feat that does it already but putting it on the table.
8: Remove Disease should just be dropped in place of an improved lay on hands system where you can spend points to remove penalties/conditions. Also maybe a feat to improve your lay of hands further.
9: Auras, they are looking alright but maybe allow players to choose sets of auras based on their gods, or even relate them to domains. Just would like more options (or even varients options in a sidebar).
10: I like the choice between mount and weapon but maybe at later levels you could gain both? or a feat that allows you to get the other one. Also more clear rules on the weapon and restrict it to diety's favored weapon. Uses should minutes = 1/2 paladin level, must use one minute at a time but can be broken up over the day.
Sorry at work so if my thoughts are alittle broken forgive me. I will have a more inclusive report by saturday since I will have time to playtest with my group.