Remove Disease should just be dropped in place of an improved lay on hands system where you can spend points to remove penalties/conditions.
I advocated that same thing
here. Unfortunately, I don't think Jason was convinced.
This is a valid concern. I am truly considering increasing the number of times per day you can use your weapon bond ability, or possibly allowing you to split up the total duration.
Two Questions: Does this aleviate the problem? Which option adds more utility without turning it into a situation where you basically always have the bonus?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Don't forget to increase the number/amount of times you can call your mount too!
tfad never forgets his mount!
:)
Peace,
tfad
Why not 1 round/Paladin level PER ENCOUNTER?
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This is brilliant! BUMP!
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Bugoo2, 08:02 AM Reply
Just make it cost a smite or turn undead use to activate beyond the standard once per day.
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Thomas Mack 727, 08:07 AM Reply
My god... What Bagoo2 said. That is the simplest and most logical way to do it. Limit to a minute and make every use after the first require a turn.
K.I.S.S.
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I would also like to voice my support of the following (in light that this book attempts to eliminate the need for prestige classes):
1. Paladins receive good Will saves in addition to Fort saves. They did this with the pious templar (3.5 paladin the way it should have been after 4th level) and i think it works well.
2. I really like the Smite Damage going to 1d6 and increasing at 5,10,15,20 (much like a rogue sneak attack progression). I also like it effecting Chaotic as well as Evil since a paladin alignment is opposite on both. Giving it the ability to be good & law aligned is also important. For instance i was playing ravenloft the other night and the paladin's smite attack does nothing special against undead with resistances even though it is granted by the paladin's god. I have to disagree with the idea of a paladin doing extra damage constantly to evil/law though. Otherwise what is the smite for?
3. Allow the weapon/mount time of use to be split up (see the disarming argument). If i was running a campaign with paladins in it, i would make my evil baddies disarm them all the time because in a world where that mechanic was in effect i would think evil forces would train their combatants to do that exact thing.
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This is a valid concern. I am truly considering increasing the number of times per day you can use your weapon bond ability, or possibly allowing you to split up the total duration.
Two Questions: Does this aleviate the problem? Which option adds more utility without turning it into a situation where you basically always have the bonus?
Jason, gotta say I like the work you have done so far! Alpha 2 was evn more impressive than 1 (and that says a lot, because 1 entranced me).
As to the Paladin Spirit, why not allow them to summon the spirit all day, but only channel the "special" powers on a certain number of attacks. I was thinking something along the lines of:
"Once summoned the spirit remains until dismissed or forced away. While it remains, it sheds light as a torch. Once per day as a full-round action the paladin can refocus the spirit to select the special powers it possesses (such as +1 flaming). As a free action, the paladin can channel the special power of her spirit into her melee attack. The benefits of the special power apply only to this single attack, although the paladin can choose to make multiple special attacks each round. The paladin can use this special attack a number of times per day equal to her paladin level plus her charisma modifier."
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This is a valid concern. I am truly considering increasing the number of times per day you can use your weapon bond ability, or possibly allowing you to split up the total duration.
Two Questions: Does this aleviate the problem? Which option adds more utility without turning it into a situation where you basically always have the bonus?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If I understood your question correctly, I think there is an elegant solution to this: "Smite Points", or whatever you wish to call them. I would picture them working just like barbarian's Rage Points -- you could activate any of your Paladin Auras, Weapon Bond, Smite Evil, etc. Why not even Lay on Hands or Turn Undead/Channel Positive Energy? That would be mechanically consistent, too (i.e. because barbarian's abilities work like this).
By the way, as I already posted on another thread, is it possible to give paladins "Shield Bond", too, so you could channel divine energy into your shield instead of your weapon? (compare to the 3E Feat 'Divine Shield'). Or perhaps there will be Divine Feats which lets you do that, and also give your more Auras to pick from?
As to the Paladin Spirit, why not allow them to summon the spirit all day, but only channel the "special" powers on a certain number of attacks. I was thinking something along the lines of:
"Once summoned the spirit remains until dismissed or forced away. While it remains, it sheds light as a torch. Once per day as a full-round action the paladin can refocus the spirit to select the special powers it possesses (such as +1 flaming). As a free action, the paladin can channel the special power of her spirit into her melee attack. The benefits of the special power apply only to this single attack, although the paladin can choose to make multiple special attacks each round. The paladin can use this special attack a number of times per day equal to her paladin level plus her charisma modifier."
I posted an idea along these lines early, early this morning, back on page 1.
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By the way, as I already posted on another thread, is it possible to give paladins "Shield Bond", too, so you could channel divine energy into your shield instead of your weapon? (compare to the 3E Feat 'Divine Shield'). Or perhaps there will be Divine Feats which lets you do that, and also give your more Auras to pick from?
Focus into the shield - now that's a good idea!
Robert
As long as paladins don't turn into Captain America, I'm OK with that option as well.
Does no one care about the association clause in the pally code? I can't believe I'm the only one to have party's that mixed...
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Someone made this comment and then no one else said anything about it ...
I agree that the restriction on Paladins and multi classing should be lifted, or at least reduced. The idea of a multi class Paladin / Cleric just seems to much of a natural to not allow.
Of course, as is done often in the Forgotten Realms books, this is dealt with many times simply by saying paladins of such and such god may freely multi class with whatever class(es) make sense. It actually adds flavor to a campaign world. Maybe that is the best way to deal with this?
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I really like the tweaks to paladin for the most part. The thing I'd really like to see for them is improving their spellcasting, maybe by bringing down the level they first get it. I can see a good argument for giving them good Will saves, and I think it's a valid one. Making smite extra damage into level-based d6s would be different but not bad.
The main thing I'd like to see is that a paladin's holy companion not be a pokemon. I would like to see a more generic "companion" than "mount," so that you can have the paladin with his holy hawk harrier, or a sacred silver wolf. The angelic weapon is pretty awesome, though I agree with the commentary that it's duration needs to be able to be broken up into smaller chunks.
Jeremy Puckett
I like the bonded weapon option, but I do think it should be available a little bit more than as presented. However, I think that disarming a paladin should remain a viable tactic for opponents, so something like can be used 1/day for per x levels or can be used x minutes per day divisible in 1 minute chunks is fine, but have a limit that the ability cannot be used more than 1/10 minutes or some such (or some other inteval) so that it in effect cannot be used more than once in a particular encounter. However, giving the paladin the ability to make a will save or some kind of spellcraft check to maintain the bond if separated from the weapon might give the paladin a heroic chance in a tight situation.
However, I do like the option of using channel enrgy (turn) uses or smite uses to power extra uses of the bonded weapon as a viable alternative as well.
As for smite eveil, I too like the extra d6 for damage. Players love rolling damage dice and this would play into that.
In terms of associations, I usually role that into the code of conduct in games I DM, and tweak the code depending on what deity is served by the paladin. Just like clerics of different deities have differences between them, I think paladins of different deities should have those subtle differences as well. I don't think the mixed associations possibility needs to be codified in the rules, but perhaps a side bar added about altering the code of conduct based on doiety served with some suggestions for codes based on the good Golarion deities to serve as an example.
I'd like to point out that at 20th level, the paladin can cast Holy Sword 3x/day, without counting Wisdom bonus. And it lasts for about a minute. I don't think giving the paladin more uses of the Bonded weapon would be a bad idea considering that. It is, after all, much like casting a free, slightly more powerful magic weapon or greater magic weapon spell once a day, which the paladin can already do as early as 4th-6th level. Also, I would consider removing the "doesn't stack" so the paladin can use the ability in conjunction with these spells.
Personally, I've never liked the poke-ball method of summoning the Bonded Mount and in my campaign the mount stays with the paladin 24/7, and I don't think it would hurt for the paladin to instead choose a "spiritual weapon" he always retains 24/7 as a bad thing - by 5th level he probably already has a +1 weapon anyway. Of course, I'd also like to see the weapon become intelligent, but that's another ball of wax for a later day.
Personally, I've never liked the poke-ball method of summoning the Bonded Mount and in my campaign the mount stays with the paladin 24/7, and I don't think it would hurt for the paladin to instead choose a "spiritual weapon" he always retains 24/7 as a bad thing - by 5th level he probably already has a +1 weapon anyway.
I'm not a fan of the pakemount, either. It can be a bit more of a hassle at times, but I agree that I'd rather see the mount around 24/7.
Of course, I'd also like to see the weapon become intelligent, but that's another ball of wax for a later day.
I'd love this as well, but you're right. Working intelligence into the ability, well, it gets ugly. That's why I didn't mention it when I posted my idea for the bonded weapon.
;D
I would vote for the ability to split the uses, perhaps change the total duration to something depending on the paladin's charisma modifier.
But I don't see a problem with the stacking, if an 8th level paladin has a +1 flaming longsword, he does not need to add any portion of his +2 bonus through Divine Bond to the generic pluses. He could just make it into a +1 flaming holy longsword, as the weapon is already magical.
Taking into account the ability to cast Magic Weapon, he could even make a masterwork longsword into a +1 holy longsword by first casting magic weapon on it.
At 11th level, he would be able to add special abilities worth a total of +3 to his sword, so starting with a +2 holy longsword, he would be able to make it into a +2 keen merciful flaming holy longsword with his ability.
If at high levels he really wants to have a weapon with high "plusses" without buying one, he can just convince a cleric or wizard to cast greater magic weapon on it. Using this he could have a +5 longsword with a total of +6 of special abilities when starting with a masterwork weapon.
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Well, I've looked at the class and I like where it is going. The mechanics need to be simplified and some of the abilities need to be boosted to make it an attractive alternative to the cleric.
Smite Evil is too weak and too infrequent to be a really useful ability. Either increase the damage output (1d6 per 2 levels of paladin?) or increase the number of times/day it can be used (change to per encounter or add Cha bonus to number of uses per day).
Channel Positive Energy:I think that it would be great if the channel positive energy (CPE for short) mechanic could be used to power more of the paladin's abilities. One could, for example, expend one CPE use to remove a temporary condition (stunned, sickened, shaken etc.) from a single target. Use 2 CPE's to remove a persistant condition (diseased etc.).
You could later use CPE to power the aura abilities. The base ability allows the paladin to use the power for himself, and they can spend one CPE to extend the ability to 30' for 1 minute/pally level.
Divine Bond:I like the idea of the weapon spirit, but it is a little lightweight IMO. 1/day is very limited and does not take into account disarmed paladins or favoured weapons that are also thrown. I would use the CPE mechanic to power this as well for 1 min/paladin level. You might also consider adding armour spirits for more defender type paladins.
Spells: I've never found the paladin's spellcasting ability to be of much use. Why not substitute this with one or two domain abilities? This could either be the Good and/or Law and/or Good and/or a domain associated with the chosen diety. This can create an overlap in some of the aura abilities, but these can be adjusted with a little creativity (which the author has in spades).
All in all, I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product. Looks a heck of a lot better than 4E IMO.
Here's a thought. Part of the reason I dislike the current concept is due to the fact that it can be applied to any example of the deity's favored weapon; a paladin of Iomedae would be able to apply the ability to any longsword. But the paladin is, in essence, bonding a spirit with his or her weapon; being able to switch out weapons doesn't make sense.
How about this: At 5th level, a paladin can bond a celestial spirit into a masterwork example of his or her deity's chosen weapon. The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus, is good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purposes of overcoming DR, and can shed light as a torch at will (let's face it, light is a dime a dozen ability, especially now that wizards, clerics, etc. can easily cast it at will). The enhancement bonus can be increased normally through traditional means.
In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus that can be used to apply weapon properties, as a standard action, for a specified duration (be it so many times per day, so many turns, or whatever else is decided). For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
The result is a permanent symbol of the divine bond between a paladin and his or her deity, but with only some of its abilities available at all times; the weapon properties still have to invoked to be effective. Conceptually, it seems to fit better. Mechanically, not much has changed.
What does everyone think?
I would put in that, for reduction of abuse, there should be some kind of clause about how often the bonuses can be changed out. Maybe make it a beginning of the day mediation thing, and can be switched around with an hour of focus or some such? I.E., in the morning, you pick your, say, 2 abilities (we'll say keen and flaming). Every time that day you use the full power of the bond, the weapon has those enhancements. If you wish to change them, you have to meditate an hour (I would say all that would do would be change things around, not restore uses). What do you think?
Hi everybody. I think one big problem with the paladin is that she doesn´t have her own place, since she is a hybrid between a mediocre fighter and a bad cleric.
An example of the problems of the paladin, maybe minor, is the heavy shield that almost always has the paladin in one arm. One example is the picture at page 20: how could she cast spells or lay on hands, when she can not change the sword to the other arm (and darkwood shields don´t change this)? Even with a light shield, how many characters would get enough ranks in Spellcraft to not worry about attacks of opportunity in a melee, instead of Diplomacy, Ride or Knowledge (Religion)? So two of her features, one shared with clerics, are not useful as they should. This is even more important if the paladin chose the bonded weapon, because the option to undraw her weapon could be a bit contradictory with the rule of keeping it in her possession (her hand?).
Since she is a chosen of her deity, I think she should be able to channel the divine energy of her goddess or god, instead of having to pray for some of her powers (the spells). The way for this could be, as others said before, and Mr Bulmahn used, the choice between options, and the chance to get through the auras inherent powers. What if, instead of casting Bless Weapon, could she have her weapon aligned since 4th or 5th level, permanently or x times a day?
Of course, the Pathfinder paladin should be compatible with the 3.5 material, and I don´t know how to get an alternative path, besides the bonded weapon/special mount, but I think it would be interesting to be explored.
Compared with the wizard's bonded item (which can be a weapon), the paladin's bonded weapon is a trinket in my view.
I would be happier to see the bonded weapon operate more like the wizard's bonded item....namely a permanent magical item. Work out 'cost' as needed. Be it gold representing sacrifices to one's deity or simply spreading out when the abilities are gained between levels differently. Impose the same penalty for losing the item as for a mount dying until the new sacred weapon can be created.
Regarding the paladin's mount...as i posted in another thread I would like to see this operate more like the druid's animal companion. Mainly in the aspect of forgoing a mount until later levels in exchange for receiving a more powerful mount but applying a lower effective level for the boosts gained from class (something I also advocate for wizard's familiars).
-Weylin Stormcrowe