Yep. I'm a party-pooper. I noticed some just from glancing at the document.
Elemental fury: 12 points to get a whopping +1d6 elemental damage on attacks? That's awful. Why on earth would I choose something like that when I could use powerful blow, which is NOT lost if I miss all my attacks in that round (rules-as-written)?
Guarded stance/rolling dodge: 6 rage points/round, the barbarian can have a +10 bonus to AC.
yeah o_o they get +10 at lvl 20.
As I said in my thread. I like these in that they give you incentive to actually go looking to get to lvl 20.
And, since the barbarian's points will be constantly burning away, he won't have many tricks up his sleeve if he tries to remain effective each round of combat.
If it lasted for more than a round it would go from just plain sad to pathetic.
I just read the "Elemental Rage" power. Is this really a Barbarian-like power? It might be a matter of semantics and making it an energy attack that feels wrong to me. If this power is lost by the time PRPG Beta rolls around, I don't think the Barabarian would suffer.
Maybe this could be replaced with somekind of bypass DR with an attack. It could be set up with a 1 for 1 expenditure so for every 1 Rage Point spent, the Barbarian could bypass 1 point of DR. Or, if a variation for different types of DR would be more desirable, it could be something like 3 pts. to bypass DR/type or magic, 6 pts. to by pass DR/cold iron or silver, 9 pts. to bypass DR/adamantine and 12 pts. to bypass DR/Alignment. I do not know if the point expenditure should be commuilative (ie. spend 12 pts. and by pass DR/silver and good) or if both should be necessary. Probably inclusive, since it is for one attack. Also, make it so it is spent before attack roll is made.
Just an idea to bat around. Anyway, I am not a big fan of the magic feel of this power. Others may have a supernatural/mystic forces of rage feel to them, but this one seems a little too much IMHO.
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Maybe this could be replaced with somekind of bypass DR with an attack. It could be set up with a 1 for 1 expenditure so for every 1 Rage Point spent, the Barbarian could bypass 1 point of DR. Or, if a variation for different types of DR would be more desirable, it could be something like 3 pts. to bypass DR/type or magic, 6 pts. to by pass DR/cold iron or silver, 9 pts. to bypass DR/adamantine and 12 pts. to bypass DR/Alignment.
I *really* like this idea; it seems to fit with the Barbarian flavor much better than simply doing elemental damage. Very cool!
I think that the Elemental Supernatural power don't go well with most Barbarian Type... I really don't imagine Conan broadsword bursting into flame because he's angry... "By Crom!Fire!??!"
A similar rage power called Primal Rage that add an additional 1d6 point of damage (the same as the attack -- not energy) could replace this one nicely...
And I don't understand how being angry can make you see better in darkness (Low-light vision, Night Sight)... Those are really stranges powers for a barbarian....
You're so angry that your eyes glow red.
I don't exceptionally like the flavor or the visual that a suddenly non-magical flaming sword brings up from a barbarian myself, but at the same time there are 18 powers and only 10 slots...so if I do make a barbarian, walking around this ability is pretty easy.
I'm sure others will find the idea to their liking, and I typically favor options in lieu of no options, so it's good in my book.
I'm not so sure about the cost though, and hope to hear others playtest experiences with it.
Cast my vote for thinking that Elemental Rage doesn't fit the Barbarian theme. As previously mentioned, replacing the ability with on that ignores DR for one round fits much better.
D&D already establishes people who can light themselves on fire by Raging and people who can freeze the air around them while raging. Conan's title is Conan the Cimmerian, and he frankly has few if any Barbarian levels. More importantly, he has few levels total, because in his books he is seriously threatened by "a wolf" and "a gelatinous cube." His opponents are generally not that high in CR, so it seems logical to conclude that in D&D terms Conan is not that high level.
If he became high level and was thrown bodily into the deep end of the pool where powerful D&D monsters roam, it seems entirely reasonable that Conan would glow with orange fire and shoot lightning bolts. After all, by the time Conan's mythos is upgraded to the point where Wizards are turning people into Stone and there are house sized giant spiders, you are no longer operating in Conan the Destroyer territory and have gone straight to the Conan the Adventurer animated series. And yes, in that one Conan can in fact make his sword give off sparks and do energy damage.
So the problem isn't that Elemental Rage exists, as there is ample precedent both in D&D and fantasy source material for Barbarians to do that. The problem is that for 12 Rage Points, that power really sucks. Doing extra damage of another type is really bad in D&D because it allows your opponent to count their resistances more than once. It is difficult to imagine a circumstance in which a Barbarian would be better off using an Elemental Rage than spending the same Swift Action and half the Rage points for a Powerful Blow.
-Frank
I agree that this does not fit well with a barbarian flavor, and that some kind of rage ability ignoring DR would be a good replacement. Overall I like the rage abilities, but this elemental one just stuck out in the the "which one of these is not like the others" kind of way. The low-light vision and darkvision rage powers aslo seemed a bit of an odd fit, but not as much as the elemental rage.
If it is preserved though, the point cost should be reevaluated though, as 12 points does seem a bit too much for this ability. Too much buck for the bang you get.
I can deal with the elemental rage thing. I can spin it to "and anger so hot that burns the soul" or "his rage caused such fear it bit like ice," but the 12 points is way too much for this.
Fizz
Yep. Ditch the supernatural stuff. A barbarian should be a damage dealing/absorbing machine. He should not be some mystical variant with elemental powers.
What exactly do you think a high level Barbarian should be doing? Remember that his opponents will frequently be flying around raining death on people, how is he supposed to contribute in that environment when he just stands there with a sword doing kind of a lot of damage to anything that deigns to come into range?
High level encounters require high level options and tactics. The Barbarian can't just swing a sword for increasing piles of damage his whole life, because an Ethergaunt will eventually laugh him out of the room. Now I'll admit that a d6 of lightning damage every time you swing a warhammer is not going to change that equation at all, but a global ban on abilities that are "magical" feeling is doomed from the get go. Any ability to interact with the magical world will by definition feel magical, and if you can't interact with that world you can't accomplish anything once you are running around in the flying castles or lava caves that the 13th level characters are expected to adventure in.
-Frank
I can see it related to the celtic myths, specifically Cu Chulainn's Warp Frenzy, that made him literally boil!
But even then, it gives the barbarian's a much more "magical" feeling that I'm used to... Not a bad thing in some campaigns, not so adequate for other campaigns, I guess
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So your concept of a high level Barbarian is a low level character?
Why don't we just go old school and bring back the level limits for classes? We could keep all the Barbarians low level and just let people play more fighting men if they weren't playing a Magic User.
I'm making fun of you here, but I'm also dead serious. If you don't want characters to do high level things, you shouldn't nerf their classes, you should just play them at lower levels. And if you are uncomfortable with one or more character archetypes being able to do high level things, you should put level caps on them in your campaign world.
Rather than letting high level Barbarians play like low level Wizards, you should just not have any high level Barbarians in your games and let the high level Barbarians pull off He Man stunts in those games which allow for high level Barbarian characters.
-Frank
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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I'll add some thoughts...
High-Level Barbarians should be able to:
- weild weapons too big for them
- improvise weapons
- hurl boulders like giants
- count as a step larger for CMB purposes
- jump higher, climb faster, and swim longer
- Ignore (or reduce) inconveniences such as hunger, thirst, extreme heat/cold/altitude, underwater pressure...
- improve on the effects of Diehard and Endurance feats
- receive an ability like "Mettle" where he shrugs off partial Fort/Will effects
- Cause damage to things not normally susceptible to damage (force effects, black tentacles, etc.)
... and be able to do all these things from within the safety of an anti-magic field, cast by one of his buddies.
-eric
I agree - mostly. Depends on the size of the boulder. A 40 pound rock, sure, a 300 pound boulder, maybe 10-20 feet, but not a hundred yards like a giant.
But you have the right concept. Barbarians should not have magical, elemental abilities. They should be great fighters, able to survive inclement weather, have great outdoor skills, etc.
Why not like a giant? Hill Giants are seriously like CR 5 monsters (IIRC). A level 11 Barbarian is supposed to be personally as powerful as *half a dozen* of them. And he's also supposed to be *at least* as strong as a hill giant.
Yeah, your instincts say that a human throwing a 300 pound rock across a field is implausible, but level 10+ D&D is *about* implausibility. Anything that resembles something that could actually happen just sucks at that point.
And remember, D&D has "non-magic"physics that defy our earth physics. If it's possible for dragons to fly and giants to no be *crushed by their own weight*, it's possible for a 200 pound guy to throw a 300 pound rock.
I'll add some thoughts...
High-Level Barbarians should be able to:
- weild weapons too big for them
- improvise weapons
- hurl boulders like giants
- count as a step larger for CMB purposes
- jump higher, climb faster, and swim longer
- Ignore (or reduce) inconveniences such as hunger, thirst, extreme heat/cold/altitude, underwater pressure...
- improve on the effects of Diehard and Endurance feats
- receive an ability like "Mettle" where he shrugs off partial Fort/Will effects
- Cause damage to things not normally susceptible to damage (force effects, black tentacles, etc.)... and be able to do all these things from within the safety of an anti-magic field, cast by one of his buddies.
-eric
I agree, that is a barbarian
I wonder if the following would be an improvement:
Changing:
Elemental Rage (Su): All of the barbarian’s attacks deal an
additional 1d6 points of energy damage for one round.
to
Elemental Rage (Su): All of the barbarian’s attacks deal energy damage for one round.
This gives the Barbarian a bit of tactical option when going up against foes with high DR, but little (or specific) Resistance to Energy. It also allows the barbarian to gain the upper hand on foes with specific energy vulnerabilities. Allowing the barbarian to choose the energy type each time the rage is used keeps the power somewhat versatile, as few monesters/foes have resistance to all 4 types of energy.
I'll add some thoughts...
High-Level Barbarians should be able to:
- weild weapons too big for them
- improvise weapons
- hurl boulders like giants
- count as a step larger for CMB purposes
- jump higher, climb faster, and swim longer
- Ignore (or reduce) inconveniences such as hunger, thirst, extreme heat/cold/altitude, underwater pressure...
- improve on the effects of Diehard and Endurance feats
- receive an ability like "Mettle" where he shrugs off partial Fort/Will effects
- Cause damage to things not normally susceptible to damage (force effects, black tentacles, etc.)
Sooo, basically what you're saying is, high level barbarians should be He-Man, with Saturday-morning cartoon levels of unrealistic badassery.
I like it. :-) Then while the level-20 Wizards are bending reality to their will, the Barbarians can be high level too.
Pretty much.
Conan (Book) -> Levels 1-3
Conan (Movie) -> Levels 4-5
Conan (Animated Series) -> Levels 6-10
He Man (Animated Series) -> Levels 11-15
Thor (Comics) -> Levels 16-20
-Frank
Glad i'm not the only one. I too looked at this rage along with lowlight/darkvision and didn't think it was appropriate to the barbarian.
The barbarian in a rage should be... simply nuts :)
For example:
-Barbarian is encircled by enemies he then makes a wild swing knocking back his attackers out of his threatened squares.
-Barbarian looks at his opponent and chooses to voluntarily allow himself to be hit. after taking the damage he smiles and Clobbers his opponent.
-One handed grappling
ect... Thats what my imagination puts forward as a Barbarian, not so much a eye glowing, spontaniously combusting sword type fighter. Besides he can get himself a flaming sword eh?
Another ability to consider granting the barbarian is the Scent ability. Its very much in flavor for a class that is typically portrayed as a being feral and a "wildman".
wow... you win Pnuemonica. Thats pretty bad ass :)
A Hill Giant has a strength of 25; A raging Barbarian should have that much at or before level 10. Admittedly, size matters well as sheer sstrength score, but a 15th level barbarian should be *stronger* than a hill giant. If you're not okay with that, you don't understand what being 15th level means.
Meanwhile, there are no "magical" creatures in D&D, at least in the sense you're talking about. Dragons have magical abilities -- like fire breathing and spellcasting. But Flight is explicitly a nonmagical ability, and a dragon can fly right through an Antimagic field if it wants to.
In D&D all kinds of ridiculous, impossible things happen *all the time* and they aren't *magic*
Someone call up the Norse and tell them to quit telling stories about berserkers turning into wolves and bears and ravens . . .
I like the elemental rage ability, I just think it costs to much to use... but I temper this with out having PLAYED with one yet.
I'm not a fan of the elemental energy bit, that sort of thing was one of the myriad things that put me off 4E.
Explaining it away as calling on an elemental spirit to inhabit the blade sounds a bit more "realistic", but doesn't feel very barbarian-ey. Does open up whole new vistas though, with the barbarian calling on totem spirits to grant him special abilities (Strength of the Bull, Endurance of the Bear, Shape of his wolf-brother, and all that).
If elemental fury is kept, I think it shouldn't engulf the barbarian's weapon. I think it ought to ensheath him - dealing damage to enemy meleer's as well as adding to his attacks. And maybe at the 2d6 level.
As for "reducing DR" - what's the difference between lowering DR and just adding more damage to the Barbarian's attacks?
A 15th level barbarian can only reach a 25 while raging if he rolled an 18 for strength.
Dude, a fourth level Barbarian will frequently have a Strength in excess of 25. Half Orc starts play with 20 Strength. Adds 1 strength at 4th level. Rages for +4. Uses a Gauntlet of Ogre Power or a bull's strength for an additional +2-4. There. 4th level character who is stronger than a Hill Giant. By a substantial margin. And it's not even weird or unlikely. We can go way higher if you want. Heck, we can cast or drink a potion of enlarge person and our Barbarian friend not only will he be stronger than a Frost Giant, he'll be the same size as well.
At fourth level. Without doing anything that isn't level appropriate or non-core.
D&D gets crazy really fast. Remember that the smallest Giants are Ogres, a Barbarian is seriously supposed to be able to lift more than them while Raging at first level.
-Frank
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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D&D gets crazy really fast. Remember that the smallest Giants are Ogres, a Barbarian is seriously supposed to be able to lift more than them while Raging at first level.
Don't forget the size large adjustment. An ogre with Str 21 can lift 920 pounds, which requires Str 26 for a medium creature. A bit more out of reach at level 1 (best I can do is Str 24). Besides, that's comparing the mightiest of low-level humans to the ogre equivalent of a 1st level warrior.