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Its unclear what happens with skills when multi classing, as the rules in the alpha are written if you want loads of skills be a rouge and then start you main class at level 2 as its not worth your while to multi class in to rogue at a later point as you won't get the huge number of skill points which you would with 3.5
That's my understanding, too. The way I read the skill rules, all characters are now REQUIRED to start as 1st level rogues, and then they can go be whatever they want after that. But no one will ever stay with rogue, or multiclass into it later, because most of the 3.5 rogue's appeal was his load of skills.
The question is why this doesn't work with everyone else's class features. In the interest of fairness, I should be able to take my first level in wizard, then multiclass to fighter for the rest of my career, and still maintain the wizard's full spellcasting progession, right? Otherwise the rogue is totally devalued into a 1- or 2-level class.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Would this work:
Skill Check is Equal To
-- Untrained: 1d20 + Ability modifier + racial modifier
-- Trained: Class Skill 1d20 + Class level (levels in class for which this is a class skill) + 3 + ability modifier + racial modifier
-- Trained: Cross-Class skill 1d20 + 1/2 (character level +3) + ability modifier + racial modifier
So a fifth level wizard / 1st level rogue with 18 dex would have 'theft' at 1d20+8 (1+3+4).
A third level wizard / third level rogue with 18 dex would have 'theft' at 1d20+10 (3+3+4).
A first level wizard / fifth level rogue with 18 dex would have 'theft' at 1d20+12 (5+3+4).
A sixth level wizard with 18 dex who took 'theft' as a cross-class skill would have it at 1d20+8((6+3)/2+4).
The rogue retains the benefit of being a skill monkey and the player who wants a wizard with deep pockets has to decide if that is worth losing a level of spells.
The more I'm becoming emerged in the debate the more that I'm envisioning the true evolution of Pathfinder along the 3.x channel would be for an elimination of class skills versus cross class skills altogether.
My advice is, stay with skill points, bump up wizards and fighters to 4+Int Modifier, leave rest as is, and remove the whole class skills versus cross class.... I mean, if you really, really wanted a fighter that took levels in Spellcraft, let them... raise an eyebrow, but let them... if you wanted a wizard that was also good at a few sleight of hand tricks, why not!?!
I always wanted my ranger to be halfway diplomatic myself....
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Would this work:
Skill Check is Equal To
-- Untrained: 1d20 + Ability modifier + racial modifier
-- Trained: Class Skill 1d20 + Class level (levels in class for which this is a class skill) + 3 + ability modifier + racial modifier
-- Trained: Cross-Class skill 1d20 + 1/2 (character level +3) + ability modifier + racial modifierSo a fifth level wizard / 1st level rogue with 18 dex would have 'theft' at 1d20+8 (1+3+4).
A third level wizard / third level rogue with 18 dex would have 'theft' at 1d20+10 (3+3+4).
A first level wizard / fifth level rogue with 18 dex would have 'theft' at 1d20+12 (5+3+4).
A sixth level wizard with 18 dex who took 'theft' as a cross-class skill would have it at 1d20+8((6+3)/2+4).
The rogue retains the benefit of being a skill monkey and the player who wants a wizard with deep pockets has to decide if that is worth losing a level of spells.
I think it needs something along these lines, otherwise there'll be a temptation for everyone to spend their first 4 levels taking a level each of Rogue, Fighter, Wizard and Cleric, at which point virtually every skill could be counted as a class skill.
It needs to be quick and easy to work out though, otherwise we might as well just go back to skill points.
I just finished playing my first session in the rules. The night before I retooled my warlock-2 into a Rogue-1/Wizard-1. The player of the Rogue-2 retooled to Rogue-2. My PC is broken in the new skill rules. The only difference between the 2 PC's skills was the Dex.
Bring back skill points! It's the least change to 3.5 in order to rebalance multi-classed PCs.
Modifying the current proposal, rather than creating something new, I would do the following:
For Trained skills use whichever is higher, the skill with levels of the class that has the skill as a class skill, or the skill with levels of the class that has the skill as cross classed.
That should do it, but adds a little bit more bookkeeping - to a point.
EDIT:: Example: A first level Rogue would have Tumble at 4 "ranks." If the character takes Wizard for the rest of its career, Tumble would count as 4 "ranks" until the character took its 7th level of Wizard, when Tumble would count as 5 "ranks."
EDIT2:: Classes that have have a given skill as class skills can add, while classes that have the skill as cross-class can add as well. Or you can keep separate track for all classes....
That's my understanding, too. The way I read the skill rules, all characters are now REQUIRED to start as 1st level rogues, and then they can go be whatever they want after that. But no one will ever stay with rogue, or multiclass into it later, because most of the 3.5 rogue's appeal was his load of skills. The question is why this doesn't work with everyone else's class features. In the interest of fairness, I should be able to take my first level in wizard, then multiclass to fighter for the rest of my career, and still maintain the wizard's full spellcasting progession, right? Otherwise the rogue is totally devalued into a 1- or 2-level class.
But skills aren't the only class feature that the Pathfinder Rogue gets. You can take one level of Rogue for extra skills, 1d6 sneak and trapfinding. But if you switch at 2nd level and never go back, you miss out on a lot of stuff:
Evasion
More sneak dice, which works against more stuff than in 3.5
Rogue talents, which kick in at 2nd instead of 10th.
Uncanny Dodge
And you will be always be one level behind on your real class. If I'm going to play a fighter, I'm not sure I need 8 skills at 1st. By 10th level I'll have 7 skills. Maybe I'd rather have my BAB stay level with my Character Level. Maybe I don't want to wait past 3rd level to pick up my armor specialization, which helps my skills by lower the armor check penalty.
The problem is that they take pieces of the Starwars SAGA skills system but didn't include one important rule: In starwars you don't gain new skills automaticaly after level 1... To add a new Trained skills you must take the Feat Skill Training and choose a skill available from your current or former class. That resolve all the problems cause by multi-classing.
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Would this work:
Skill Check is Equal To
-- Untrained: 1d20 + Ability modifier + racial modifier
-- Trained: Class Skill 1d20 + Class level (levels in class for which this is a class skill) + 3 + ability modifier + racial modifier
-- Trained: Cross-Class skill 1d20 + 1/2 (character level +3) + ability modifier + racial modifierSo a fifth level wizard / 1st level rogue with 18 dex would have 'theft' at 1d20+8 (1+3+4).
A third level wizard / third level rogue with 18 dex would have 'theft' at 1d20+10 (3+3+4).
A first level wizard / fifth level rogue with 18 dex would have 'theft' at 1d20+12 (5+3+4).
A sixth level wizard with 18 dex who took 'theft' as a cross-class skill would have it at 1d20+8((6+3)/2+4).
The rogue retains the benefit of being a skill monkey and the player who wants a wizard with deep pockets has to decide if that is worth losing a level of spells.
I really like this idea. It simple and effective and solves the problem without removing options. Good job!
SM
I'm gonna throw this ideal up here too
every one gets 4 skills at first except bard/ranger and rogue who get 6
to keep rogues as skill monkeys I say they get 2 skills every even level and every one else gets one. that should solve the 1 level of rogue thing.
I like the idea of only counting a skill as a class skill if half your class levels +1 have it as a class skill.
At any that you have 2 levels more than half your levels in a class that does not have it as a class skill it drops to a cross-class skill.
So a rogue5/fighter 6 (a multi-class character switching every level) can keep both skill sets maxed.
A rogue 5/fighter 7 has all of his rogue skills (except those which are also fighter skills like Climb and Intimidate) drop to cross-class skills.
A rogue 4/ranger 2/fighter 6 could keep stealth, perception, and climb as class skills, but disable device, theft, and survival would all be cross-class skills.
One of the things I like about this system is that cross-class skills are much more relevant than before. Cross-classing with skill points required too many skill points to maintain. A fighter could basically only successfully cross-class in one or two skills (if he had bonus skill points). Now he can automatically cross-class in several skills which are even more useful since being combined. So he can cross-class in Perception and Stealth and have decent modifiers in both. Also 1/2 level +3 is a better number than was achievable under the skill point system (+4 at 2nd level as opposed to +2 and so on).