RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Hello!
First off, I really appreciate what you're doing here. I think it's an excellent idea to make fixes for the apparent flaws in 3E, and it's good that people are continuing to support an old-ish system that many people are familiar with and enjoy playing.
Second, well, I have some experience as a game designer and rules lawyer, so I'm going to give you my unsolicited feedback on the alpha version. Perhaps this can be of some use to you. I'd be happy to add more feedback if people like it, I'd also be happy to STFU if they don't.
-- KG
The chapter on races is concise and easy to read. It's well to the point, and I appreciate how it doesn't presuppose any particular setting. One thing that might be nice is a table comparing e.g. racial ability adjustments. Overall, it's a solid text.
* It would be nice if there was a "new" race on the list, that would be iconic for the Pathfinder setting. I'm not sure what it would be, of course; perhaps a centaur, or some avian creature to take advantage of the new flying skill.
* Races quickly become irrelevant at higher levels, which they really shouldn't be. One way of alleviating this is creating racial feats that can be taken at, say, 6th and 12th level. Writing down some random musings,
- Dwarven resilience [6]: once per day per every four levels, you may re-roll a failed fortitude saving throw.
- Dwarven toughness [12]: you regenerate one hit point per round.
- Elven marksmanship [6]: the range of all your ranged weapons and spells is increased by 50%
- Elven stealth [12]: you automatically gain concealment while standing still in natural surroundings that contain some plants/trees to hide behind.
- Half-orc fury [6]: you can rage once per day as a 1st-level barbarian. If you have a level in barbarian, instead your bonuses to Str and Con when raging increase by +2 each.
- Half-orc brutality [12]: once per day, you can add your level to the damage done by a single melee attack. If the attack misses, this power is not used up.
And for some more specific comments,
Dwarves:
* I think there's too many little circumstantial bonuses in here, that add more to bookkeeping than to gameplay (I'm aware that D&D has the same issue). I know the bonuses against goblins and giants are traditional, but they're also easy to lose track of, and would not fit in every character's background (or, indeed, in every campaign). I think this should instead be a feat.
* "Treat any craft/profession skills related to stone as class skills" is unnecessary since practically every single class has craft/profession as class skills to begin with.
* Rather than the somewhat convoluted bonuses to perception, it would be easier to simply give dwarves a flat +2 to perception while underground.
* Rather than the "make appraise checks as if trained", I'd suggest simply giving all dwarves Appraising skill for free. It seems fitting.
Elves:
* As with dwarves, I'm not convinced that splitting perception checks by the sense you're using is such a practical idea. Besides, 95% of all perception checks are sight- or sound-based. So the elves could simply get a +2 bonus to all perception checks.
* As written, their "unnatural beauty" improves the reaction of dwarves, orcs and trolls. This is probably not the intent.
* The bonus to appraisal is too situational, as this only works in conjuction with detect magic, and people who have access to detect magic tend to also have access other divination spells like identify.
* Weapon familiarity: it strikes me that (nearly) every class that would actually use weapons with some regularity is already proficient with those weapons listed, from its class abilities. I'd suggest making it a meaningful bonus, or dropping it.
Gnome:
* Given how infrequently craft and profession come up for player characters, I think it'd be easier to give gnomes a flat +2 to all craft checks instead.
* See the dwarves for the remark about racial enmity.
* Gnomes would be more worthwhile to play if those magical abilities they got weren't so nearly worthless. Something like Mage Hand would be a better cantrip. Or, for that matter, light, mending, or daze; there's even some 1st-level spells that wouldn't be overwhelming.
Half-elf:
* I'm glad you dropped the weird skill bonuses there, but at present I don't really see any reason to play a half-elf instead of a human.
Half-orc:
* As with half-elf, I have trouble finding a mechanical reason to play a half-orc rather than a human. They were mechanically weak in 3E, and they still are. I like the ferocity, but I think it should be more effective - e.g. if halforcs simply never fell unconscious due to lack of hit points (but bled to death normally), it would not be unbalanced.
Favored class:
* While this rule is more practical than the 3E one, it strikes me as somewhat pointless. Perhaps it's better to simply make "favored classes" a suggestion to players, that points out that e.g. elves make good wizards because they get an int bonus, but has no mechanical benefit otherwise.
That's all for now. Regardless, I'm looking forward to the next alpha.
I'll add my voice to this thread. Here are some brief notes I made while I was at work:
RACES – simplify bonuses/penalties
Dwarves: +2 CON, -2 DEX (Stout, not too nimble)
Elves: +2 DEX, -2 CON (Graceful but delicate).
Gnomes: +2 WIS, -2 STR (Intuitive but small stature limits strength)
Half-elves: None
Half-orcs: +2 STR, -2 CHR (Powerfully built but boorish by nature). Orc ferocity: 3+CON bonus rounds.
Halflings: +2 DEX, -2 STR (Deceptively nimble but small stature limits strength)
Humans: None
HIT POINTS
Starting Hit Points: Double MAX HP + double CON bonus at first level. After that I’d go with normal HP progression (with the option for set Hit Points after that). The bumped up hit points for rogues and wizards goes against my grognard nature… but I think I can get over it (and grow to like it).
FEATS
I like the fact that feats are gained more frequently.
CLASSES
Cleric: Perfect… especially the 0-level spells as Orisons.
Fighter: Armor Mastery should start as DR 5/ - at level 10. Otherwise perfect. A character with Weapon Mastery should be able to be disarmed by another character with that ability.
Rogue: I love every change.
Wizard: I’d fold the “Fly” skill into Acrobatics or get rid of it. Otherwise I dig it… especially the 0-level spells as Cantrips.
SKILLS
I like the streamlined Skilled, Unskilled and Cross-Class skill mechanic. Fold “Fly” into Acrobatics or ditch it. It’s too specialized a skill. Fold “Disguise” into Deception and Perform (actor) skills.
I like the Perception skill and the other folded together skills.
COMBAT
I need to really mull this over BUT so far, so good! The new feats all look like they could spice up the game.
Turning Healing: I think this is a good fix but I can see Rebuking Undead being used to dish out a lot of pain.
Schools of Magic & Domains: AWESOME! This is a great solution for casters that prevents them from becoming useless after shooting off a few spells each day. Most cool!
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I actually love the new stat bonuses. I love the fact that EVERY race is good. These guys are heroes!
I also am a big fan of the racial starting hit point idea, because it is particularly flavorful for people who play across type, as well as being synergistic with people who are playing natural classes.
I'll be honest the only thing I can say I don't like is havening combo feats . other then that I love everything really. although im not sure if i like the saga skills or still only havening 2 skills and not 4 but good work.
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So far I like what I see! I haven't had time to really digest it all or debate it with my gaming crew but my initial thoughts are that this is a positive step in the right direction.
The campaign that I play in uses the generic classes from Unearthed Arcana and some elements of Green Ronin's True20 system. We like the flexibility of being able to create our characters on the fly, as we progress, instead of being chained to a class that might not have anything to do with the concept we have for the character but is as close as the rules get. I think the changes that you've made will make us want to explore the classes again!
I always disliked the 3.xx issue of a gazillion overspecialized feats and not enough feat slots to use them. I think that a lot of the feats are unnecessary and would be better if rolled into a skill, combined into single feat or became an option for the class that they were targeted towards. I like the new feat progression AND the new feats have the right feel to them.
I like the new folded skills! We've already made many of these changes and I'm glad to see them here. We also use the complex skill check system and I would like to see that as part of the core mechanic. IIRC, the complex skill check system is a part of the SRD and OGL.
There's still a lot for me to go through and think about but I've decided to playtest these rules in the 'Spelljammer/Planescape with a little Eberron' mashup that I'm working on instead of using our current rules. I eagerly await the next release with the rest of the classes!
SM
Actually, I didn't mind the changes to the races, although I too was a bit disappointed not to see a new race... one more race would be nice, preferably something that didn't have "half" in it (no fault of Paizo's of course on that).
The only thing, which I've said twice already, that I did not like so far was the XP triple ladder thingy (the fast, medium and slow)... one ladder should suffice with optional for slower, take 10% to 25% off xp given out at end of adventure.
Otherwise, this rocks!
I actually love the new stat bonuses. I love the fact that EVERY race is good. These guys are heroes!
I like the idea of a net +2 to one's ability score BUT I don't like how those bonuses fall. Dwarves wind up with a CHR penalty while Half-Orcs don't? If any race should have a CHR penalty, it should be Half-Orcs (they've always had one, whereas Mountain Dwarves suffer a DEX penalty in place of a CHR penalty in 3.X and all Dwarves had a Max DEX of 17 in AD&D). Also a race should not get a CHR bonus because they are "agreeable" (i.e. Halflings). CHR represents one's presence and ability to inspire and lead, as well as one's ability to sway others.
I know I'm being nitpicky but I figure this is constructive criticism that is based on the flavor of these classic races. If the +2, +2, -2 adjustments are followed, I'd suggest the following:
Dwarf: +2 CON (tough), +2 WIS (strong-willed), -2 DEX (stocky, not nimble... fits with AD&D DEX maximums and 3.X Mountain Dwarves). Save the -2 CHR penalty for Half-Orcs.
Elf: +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON
Gnome: +2 CON, +2 DEX, -2 STR
Half-Elf: +2 to any 1 ability score
Half-Orc: +2 STR, +2 CON (tough), -2 CHR.
Halfling: +2 DEX, +2 WIS (deceptively strong-willed and resistant to fear), -2 STR. This is based on classic halflings (and, of course, hobbits).
Human: +2 to any 1 ability score
I like the idea of a net +2 to one's ability score BUT I don't like how those bonuses fall. Dwarves wind up with a CHR penalty while Half-Orcs don't? If any race should have a CHR penalty, it should be Half-Orcs (they've always had one, whereas Mountain Dwarves suffer a DEX penalty in place of a CHR penalty in 3.X and all Dwarves had a Max DEX of 17 in AD&D). Also a race should not get a CHR bonus because they are "agreeable" (i.e. Halflings). CHR represents one's presence and ability to inspire and lead, as well as one's ability to sway others.I know I'm being nitpicky but I figure this is constructive criticism that is based on the flavor of these classic races. If the +2, +2, -2 adjustments are followed, I'd suggest the following:
Dwarf: +2 CON (tough), +2 WIS (strong-willed), -2 DEX (stocky, not nimble... fits with AD&D DEX maximums and 3.X Mountain Dwarves). Save the -2 CHR penalty for Half-Orcs.
Elf: +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON
Gnome: +2 CON, +2 DEX, -2 STR
Half-Elf: +2 to any 1 ability score
Half-Orc: +2 STR, +2 CON (tough), -2 CHR.
Halfling: +2 DEX, +2 WIS (deceptively strong-willed and resistant to fear), -2 STR. This is based on classic halflings (and, of course, hobbits).
Human: +2 to any 1 ability score
That line-up looks pretty good to me...I second it. :)
Hmmm.... NICE! I'll have to think about the bonus to humans though, they already get a bonus feat, should they get a bonus to their abilities too? If they get both, why would anyone ever play anything else? Just my thoughts. I definitely like the others though!
Dwarf: +2 CON (tough), +2 WIS (strong-willed), -2 DEX (stocky, not nimble... fits with AD&D DEX maximums and 3.X Mountain Dwarves). Save the -2 CHR penalty for Half-Orcs.
Elf: +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON
Gnome: +2 CON, +2 DEX, -2 STR
Half-Elf: +2 to any 1 ability score
Half-Orc: +2 STR, +2 CON (tough), -2 CHR.
Halfling: +2 DEX, +2 WIS (deceptively strong-willed and resistant to fear), -2 STR. This is based on classic halflings (and, of course, hobbits).
Human: +2 to any 1 ability score
I like the way you are thinking. Totally agree on Dwarf, Elf, Half-Elf, Human, Half-Orc, and Halflings. Can't agree on Gnomes though. I have NEVER understood why Gnomes are +2 Con. They are small, skinny, and usually associated with tinkering. They should instead be +2 CHR. This would allow them to be great sorcerors and bards. The sorceror is a throw back to their illusionist days and the bard goes with the fact that "wee-folk" are just gosh-darn more entertaining! ;-)
Dwarf: +2 CON (tough), +2 WIS (strong-willed), -2 DEX (stocky, not nimble... fits with AD&D DEX maximums and 3.X Mountain Dwarves). Save the -2 CHR penalty for Half-Orcs.
Elf: +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON
Gnome: +2 CON, +2 DEX, -2 STR
Half-Elf: +2 to any 1 ability score
Half-Orc: +2 STR, +2 CON (tough), -2 CHR.
Halfling: +2 DEX, +2 WIS (deceptively strong-willed and resistant to fear), -2 STR. This is based on classic halflings (and, of course, hobbits).
Human: +2 to any 1 ability score
I like the way you are thinking. Totally agree on Dwarf, Elf, Half-Elf, Human, Half-Orc, and Halflings. Can't agree on Gnomes though. I have NEVER understood why Gnome's are +2 Con. They are small, skinny, and usually associated with tinkering. They should be instead be +2 CHR. This would allow them to be great sorcerors and bards. The sorceror is a throw back to their illusionist days and the bard goes with the fact that "wee-folk" are just gosh darn more entertaining! ;-)
Gnomes are the tough race for me to figure out. The +2 CON is based on 3.X and upon AD&D (where they are related to Dwarves).
If they are an offshoot of fey, with ties to the dwarves and the earth, I'd say a +2 CON could represent an innate resilience. Other abilities that could receive a bonus are:
DEX (as fey, they nimble and able to make themselves scarce with relative ease)
INT (they are quick-witted tricksters)
WIS (they are empathic, intuitive and perceptive creatures)
I just don't get why they'd be more charismatic than other races. Likeability is a personality trait that anyone can have, regardless of their CHR... it shouldn't be built into a race. The ability score adjustments should be based on what works, flavor wise, not what works mechanically.
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I completely agree with you, Kurald Galain. Hope the guys of Paizo take your feedback as seriously. Those are very good improvements to the crunch of the system.
More general bonuses/penalties can be used to make the system smoother but I also believe a good fluffy explanation of the ability would make the game even better.
For example, the elf's bonus to attitude section could explain how certain races are indifferent towards an elf's beauty or how others are actually hostile to it.
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Dwarf: +2 CON (tough), +2 WIS (strong-willed), -2 DEX (stocky, not nimble... fits with AD&D DEX maximums and 3.X Mountain Dwarves). Save the -2 CHR penalty for Half-Orcs.
Elf: +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON
Gnome: +2 CON, +2 DEX, -2 STR
Half-Elf: +2 to any 1 ability score
Half-Orc: +2 STR, +2 CON (tough), -2 CHR.
Halfling: +2 DEX, +2 WIS (deceptively strong-willed and resistant to fear), -2 STR. This is based on classic halflings (and, of course, hobbits).
Human: +2 to any 1 ability score
I agree with you flavor-wise on this one, but I think that Paizo had the right idea from a mechanics standpoint, going with a set of stats that was reasonable even if not perhaps the most accurate because of balance issues.
The original poster had mentioned how he didn't see why anyone would end up wanting to play half-orcs as they are now, however with your suggested stats it makes it so that really no fighter, barbarian, or even monk would want to play anything else.
Half-orcs would get the two most important stats for melee combat while only dropping the stat that is most often seen as a dump stat for those races. In 3.x they felt the need to balance a strength bonus with two other stat penalties because of how potent it is.
A charisma penalty may hold the flavor of half-orcs better(however don't forget that in Golarion, what I'm assuming is something of the default setting for PFRPG, half-orcs can often become war leaders in orc tribes) it also is a skill that is primarily fluff(diplomacy, perform, ect) with no save attached to it. Intelligence at least lowers their skill pool so it has a drawback.
Plus, as someone earlier mentioned about halflings getting a charisma bonus, charisma covers more then just likability. If half-orcs are good at leading others, or just being downright scary, then the penalty may not fit.
I agree with you flavor-wise on this one, but I think that Paizo had the right idea from a mechanics standpoint, going with a set of stats that was reasonable even if not perhaps the most accurate because of balance issues.
Hmmm... you've got a point.
The problem is that CHR, in essence, represents a creature's force of presence and ability to influence others. Some creatures may have a strong presence and may be able to scare the crap out of other's or make great commanders of evil hordes but shouldn't get bonuses to Diplomacy or Perform checks.
If 1/2 Orcs don't get a CHR penalty then no race should. Instead, they should get a penalty to Diplomacy checks due to their brusque nature, short tempers and the prejudices against them.
It is a tough call on how to do... I just think that the ability scores, as given in the Alpha Rules, are off.
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My turn:
Chain feats are a hassle. They bog down combat and greatly limit the options open to a character. Quite frankly, from the lack of support for them on the messageboards it would be wise to remove them.
Cleave as a full round action makes it worthless at higher levels, when someone would much rather have their full attack.
Ranged Combat:
Cover for ranged weapons is unnecesarily tedious. A simple -2 penalty is less realistic, but speeds up gameplay.
Apart from that, I await Alpha Release 2!
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I'd like to know what the thinking was behind improving the racial ability scores. It seems like an unnecessary complication if compatibility was a key design goal.
On the other hand, presumably it means in Pathfinder the Hobgoblins and Planetouched no longer have a level adjustment, which I like.
Alpha 1 was probably not the place for it, but I'd love to see all the +2/+2 skill feats which clutter up the Players Handbook rolled into one feat, such as True20s "Talented" feat. Allowing the player to "pick two related skills" like in True20 is probably a bit woolly for D&D but maybe just have a list instead as part of the feat description.
Looking forward to seeing what you have done to the sorcerer.
To show my faith in you guys I've added a Chronicles subscription and a Modules subscription. Delighted to see my user title has already been updated!
Only problem with adding race level benifits is that it is not back compatable. You would have to rework every stat block for all races in past 3.5 adventures.
I also understand that that type of feature is part of 4e.
The goal here seems to be to keep 3.5 well, 3.5. Changing the racial traits, can always be assumed to have already taken place in the NPC stat blocks (Sure, it may mean that their starting rolls were a little less, but it won't impact the DM any.)
ASEO out
Liked the tweaks to the classes. Finally a reason not to PRC (Extra +1 HP and class specials) or limit it to a single PRC or two like Archmage and Loremaster for a few level dips. DR for fighters based on armor.
Liked the basic concept of a +2 to the primary ability ability score when all was said and done in the end usually belonging to the favored class regardless of how the PC was generated by point buy or rolling (Less reason to chase after a strange template or higher ECL race).
Really liked that clerical spellcasting matches wizard spellcasting.
Liked the concept of picking the favored class of the PC.
Liked the Sneak Attack fix.
Liked the bogus feats that were rarely used in game and dropped.
Generally liked how the skills worked, definitely an improvement IMO.
In a leveling up game I favor a second full hit die based on size and race with minimal skill points (No +3 skill points which would be due to having a class) (Things like a Halfling Barbarian -1, Wizard -1). It would be be a nice way to denote sub adults in game without class levels or many skills.
I really like the Schools although I would like to see a little tweaking for commonly usable abilites (Perhaps a choice between one or two PHB spells of the school at that level or something from the Universal school at a lower level).
I'd consider changing the Spell-like abilities to Supernatural abilites (For example there are feats in 3.5 that enhance the use of single use daily spell-like abilities to 3/Day (Magic in the Blood feat PGtF). Using that single feat would bump up the power of a school quite a bit particularly the Universal school as is.
The Universal school is very abusable for a wizard with Wish 1/Day as a spell like ability unless the Wish spell is changed (Something as simple as renaming it Arcane Wonder and limiting it to the effects of a standard No Experience Point "Arcane" Miracle good for duplication of spells without costly components but requiring 5,000 experience points or more for "Greater" effects like creating magic items).
Wish has no experience point cost as a spell like ability. No need to take crafting feats in game for magic items below 25,000 gp (As a spell-like ability the PC does not pay the extra Wish crafting experience points for the item). Plus many magical items like weapon or charged magic items can be built in steps or pro rated: Day 1 25,000 gp Day 2 50,000 gp Day 3 75,000 gp ..........
IMO it should be qualified similar to the Miracle spell as being primarily for the duplication of a spell effect (Material component under 1,500 GP (Limited Wish is 300 exp) with the PC needing to fuel a greater Wish that has expensive material components. Wish parameter limitation should be better identified.
Does the Contact other Plane work exactly as the spell for a Diviner? IMO a daily ability should be "safe" for the PC to use normally.
For the Conjuration School:
What about a choice of Faithful Hound or Teleport instead of Major Creation? (The PC normally rests every night so that is when he would be most defenseless in game Faithful Hound would address that concern to a degree. In other games travelling might be more of a priority so Teleport would be a better choice).
IMO Planeshift should be changed to PC choice of Teleport Greater or Magnificent Mansion or Spell Turning or Summon Monster 8 except in a heavy planar style campaign.
For the Divination School perhaps the L20 Near Omniscience could be changed to an Extended Foresight with the never surprised switched to L18 or exchanged for an arcane variant of the psionic hypercognition power?
For the Necromancy school that 8HD of undead per level is a game breaker as written IMO it can get pretty ugly when they are powerful undead like vampires or liches and not mook undead like skeletons and zombies. I can see the Necromancer -2 with a single vampire.
At this point I'm curious will the sorcerer class get the Universal school by default or have the choice of picking up another school?
I'm really looking forward to a Sorcerer fix. 4-6 skill points a level along with Charisma based skills like Diplomancy. If that isn't feasible perhaps a class special like the school of Hard Knocks and picking up 2 - 8 extra individual skill points at first level which are not multiplied by 4 or Fey/Sylvan friend. No ASF in light armor or a scaling negative special for ASF around -1% a level.
Hopefully modeled off the Variant Spellcaster class mechanically before adding things like a Sorcerer school or the Universal school and any other bells and whistles like extra known spells at each level.
Something as simple as starting off with 3 known spells at each level like a FS and capping known spells at 7 vice the present.
Knowing a few spells with freebie +1 meta as unique spells.
Giving all sorcerers the "option" of taking a feat or ritual to drop spellcasting to coincide with other full casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard).
Letting sorcerers take the Spell Mastery feat to increase their known spells.
Liked how the familiars advance in ability with every casting level.
Starting hit die has been percolating in my brain and I really think the extra hit die should be racial mainly because of things like a Halfling dipping into Barbarian - 1 for the maximum double hit points (12 + con + 12 + con) along with the double skill points (Barbarian gets 4 compare to a Fighter, Sorcerer or Wizard with 2), fast movement, rage and taking another class like Fighter or Sorcerer (Battle Sorcerer variant) or Wizard as a favorite class afterwards since that wouldn't be a bad move in a leveling up game.
P.S. There would be more feedback but although the pdf says printing is possible I believe it is actually locked and it is a pain to keep scrolling through the pdf.
I was thrilled with everything I read and was totally ready to pre-order until I saw that thrice-g@@-d+&ned saga-style skill system! Stay with the 3.5 skill system and you'll have me as a buyer for Pathfinder.