I like the new skill system.
I would suggest that the old system be an optional rule in a sidebar (so that it is officially there, and so that new players see the option, not just old players knowing about it).As mentioned by Geron Reveneye, you will need to add level+3 extra points to keep up with the new system.
I know that multiclassing will encourage min/maxers to take a level of rogue first, then go on to their prime choice. I think that no matter what the rules end up being, min/maxers will find a way to abuse the rules, so I am not sure if this is a game breaker or just a DM problem. I like the streamlining of the new system.
I am of two minds for modifying the starting number of skills. I have always felt that the number of skill points too low in 3.5, and accord 2 extra skill points per level for all chars. So, I can see changing the number of skills available for some classes. But with the fact that you are now gaining new skills every second level, I can see retaining the original skill numbers. In the end, I think that the old numbers should be used, as they are well known and to help keep things backwards compatible.
I am of the same mind as Tamago on cross-class skills. Once you have taken a cross-class skill, I too believe that if you spend another point on that skill, that it turn into a class skill for you.
I like Jason’s idea of split skills.
As for hobby skills, would giving a char a +5 on his hobby sound unreasonable? Perhaps have the char gain a new hobby skill every 5 levels? The reason that Karla the 5th level fighter knows about court etiquette and Korvosa history is because she reads a lot of historical romance novels.
Combining skills:
I too think that Disable Device and Open Lock are a better fit, with Sleight of Hand fits well in Stealth.
As well, I think that Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana should be combined, with Concentration staying it’s own skill.
Bring back skill points. It's the best way to balance the multi-classing with Rogues.
Leave the quick way for NPC's or fast play.
Also, I like the idea of removing the skill rank caps but have them cost double beyond the normal limit.
I'm reposting this from a different thread as I feel I should have put it here instead of creating a new thread. You can discuss or ignore, I just want to add my two cents where it belongs.
from The other thread.
Disclaimer: I haven't been at my computer recently and just started looking at the rules. I haven't read the stuff elsewhere, so this may be redundant. If so I apologize.
Just a few comments and suggestions. I haven't playtested, these are just the initial impressions of a longtime 3.5 DM who had been fiddling with the rules on his own.
I had to read through the skill rules a couple times to follow what was going on. Maybe clean up the text a bit to make it easier to follow. Or maybe I'm just dense, which is a distinct possibility.
I love getting rid of skill points, I was doing something similar to Saga myself.
But one thing I was considering was a way to allow characters to get high bonuses to skills that are not "class skills". I just have a belief that if someone wants to learn about Magic, if they study it enough they can be as proficient as a wizard. Also, I was wondering if there was a way to make it a bit more multiclassing friendly. My litmus test is "fighter multiclassing into a rogue". You have to be able to go from fighter to rogue and gain proficiency in enough skills to be able to effectively find and disable traps, and maybe one other roguish like skill (use magic device, etc).
What if you did something like these mechanics. Bear with me, I learned in RPGSuperstar I am not a designer. These are similar to my house rules I have been playing with, but a little De-SAGAfied. In my gmaes I use the whole 1/2 Level +5 thing from SAGA, but I removed that from the above to help comply with the idea of backwards compatibility.
The check for trained skills is 1d20+Character Level+3+Ability Mod+Racial Mod.
The check for un-trained skills is 1d20+1/2*(Character Level+3)+Ability Mod+Racial Mod. Some skills may not be used untrained.
There is no such thing as "cross-class".
A character first chooses a number of trained skills equal to their intelligence bonus. These can be any skills from the full list of skills.
A character then chooses a number of additional trained skills based on their class. Barbarian chooses 4, Bard chooses 6, etc. These skills can only be chosen from the class skill list.
Miscellaneous stuff:
If a character's intelligence bonus increases via a permanent increase (inherent bonus, ability increase from higher level), they may choose another trained skill from the full list of skills.I have ignored intelligence penalties, but if you wanted to include them just say that the intelligence penalty is added to the number of trained skills based on class.
Humans choose a bonus trained skill from the full list of skills.
When Multiclassing, choose a number of additional trained skills based on the new class. This number is equal to the starting skill number of that class divided by 2. So if multiclassing into Barbarian choose 2, if multiclassing into bard choose 3, etc. These skills can only be selected from the class skill list of the new class.
Prestige classes work like multiclassing.
Please utilize any, all, or none of this as you like. I am not saying it's perfect, and it definitely makes characters more powerful than their 3.5 counterparts, but that is something I decided fo allow for the same reasons they did it in SAGA.
Enjoy. If you have any questions I'll try to respond, but it may be intermittent during easter break.
and
For the record, I think skill points vs non-skill point systems both have their pros and cons.
Personally, as a DM, I'm less on the simulationist side, so my preference is Saga style. I find that I make NPC's faster when I just choose the skills that are trained, as opposed to choosing where to put skill points and whether the points are point for rank or point for 2 ranks.
As a player, I don't mind the time investment of using skill points as much. The precision targeting of skills allows a degree of customization and control over character development, as opposed to the more shotgun approach of Saga. And lets face it, it's been around since 3.0, so it has history.
But I am a bit bothered when certain skills, like Listen and Spot, can only be maxed out as class skills for certain classes, when I think those are skills all classes should be able to max. I have a problem with the 1st level rogue easily hiding from the 20th level fighter. That's why I like the way Saga includes 1/2 level to all skill checks. It kind of represents experience.
And when multiclassing, I don't like that certain key abilities that are tied to skills will not be available when a character first multiclasses into it. For example, the party fighter (say 10th level) wants to multiclass into rogue. But he has to split the 8+Int points he gets amoung all the rogue skills. He will have a very hard time searching for traps, disabling devices, opening locks, and using Magic devices to the degree that an EL appropriate adventure would require. So a lot of the key abilities a rogue should get (and possibly need) is lost.
One thing I don't like about Saga is the way a character can instantly master a skill, say when they increase their intelligence score. That sets off my realism alarm. I also don't like the way Saga handles learning new languages.
But in my game I accept the problems with Saga over the problems of skills points. But that's a personal preference, your preferences may differ.
One thought we need to keep in mind is that the mechanics for Saga may not be open. If Paizo uses a skill mechanic that is too close to Saga they may open themselves up to legal trouble. Whatever they use may have to be sufficiently different as to not step on WOTC toes. For instance, what I use at home may be too close to Saga to publish.
Adding an other voice to the NOOOOOOOOOO! Please don't take my skillpoints away, loathe and detest this saga-style way of doing it chorus.
Actaully this one posted way back on page 1 seems fairly ideal. Well, at least after I deleted the 'more skillpoints for each class' from the list.
- Skill points instead of Saga style
- Complex skill checks
- No cross-class skills, all skills available for all characters
- Combine similar skills as presented in Alpha
I think we need another thread for this specific discussion because this one seems to be whether people dislike or like the new skill system.
Fair enough. In that case, I will vote that I dislike the new system. As a player, I tend to keep 1 - 3 core skills truely maxed and then have a mix of 3/4, 1/2 and minimal skills representing other areas of reducing importance to the character. Frankly, I also take into account other skill modifiers as to how much I "invest" in a particular skill. Being well rounded is more important to me than being the "best" and at small number of things. As a DM, my players tend to take similar approaches. Given the shear number of odd situations adventurers face, by definition, this isn't about being able to do everything yourself, it's about not getting whacked upside the head because you have a huge whole in what you can attempt! For the same reason, I think there should be a core group of skills (Balance, Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot, Swim) that should be available to every class. I don't care what your class is, being able to perceive and move through your environment is of critical importance (and I always take and see taken these skills (well, except Swim), CC or not, because of it.
Simplicity and Fexibility are always, to an extent, opposed. IMHO, the exisiting 3.5 system does a good job of balancing them and the new system sacrifices too much flexibility in the name of simplicity.
I'll see if I can find the new thead now. :)
Yeah I want to keep skill points as well. A lot of skills are never useful at all levels. Survival never becomes all that useful once you have a ring of sucidance.
|
The Pathfinder system basically works like this; You get your starting skills based on class and they are in effect maxed out to 3 + character level (class skills) for the rest of your adventuring career. You also gain another skill every two levels for a total of ten at 20th level. These additional skills are also maxed out to 3 + character level (class skills) when you take them. There is also this line in the rules: Any class skills of the new class, however, are automatically added to your list. Any cross-class skill that is added to your class skill list, due to your new class, is immediately upgraded to the higher class skill bonus.
Class skills & Cross-Class Skills checks:
Trained class skill: 1d20 + character level + relevant ability modifier
Trained cross-class skill: 1d20 + 1/2 character level + 3 + relevant ability modifier
Untrained: 1d20 + relevant ability score
My alternate way of using this system, but still keeping the base concept:
First, adding Jason Bulmahn's rule - You are allowed to "split a selection" to get two skills at a lower bonus (1/2 level + ability mod or 1/4 for cross class).
Second, have more skills to assign at first level and less to gain as you advance. More specifically adding 3-5 more starting skills for each class, but only able to gain another skill every 3 levels (totals 5 more by 20th level).
These two changes to the rules should greatly increase the customization of your character (especially at first level) and at the same time should reduce the desire to cherry-pick a class because of the skills they get at first level.
If you decide to cherry pick rogue, you have to wait until 4th level to get your next skill and wizards will not have spellcraft or knowledge (arcana) as a class skills until then. Same with clerics and the skills they would need. Ride will not be a class skill for fighters.
When all classes get more skill choices at first level I think this would aleviate part of the desire to cherry-pick rogue too.
You might ask why more skill choices at first level. Well 3.5 had skill points and they had to be dished out slowly since you could only assign so many before the skill was already maxed out. In Pathfinder as soon as you pick a skill it is maxed out. In both systems you can can not increase it past max (except through bonuses in both, not ranks though). All the skills you get at first level will be progressing the same as in 3.5. Currently it seems like Pathfinder was trying to mimic giving out skills slowly like 3.5 does and it just does not feel right like some people have mentioned. With only getting 5 more skills as you level instead of ten it seem more reasonable. (It is weird at 20th level to gain a skill that you have not had before and it is automatically at +20 when you take it. Maybe this system needs to be even more front loaded and then have a feat to gain extra skills.)
Give me feedback please.
P.S. We can also add a feat that allows you to gain new skills somehow (maybe at half and taking it twice gives it at full) for people that really do not feel they have enough skills at a certain level or really need one before they get to their next additional skill level. Having a lot of initial skills should alleviate this though.
|
MY thought is the skill system presented in pathfinder is a good idea.
all levels have Skill points can be a fiddly to biased if you ask me. I say have the way it is written for first level then have skill points added on the levels after instead if you want book-keeping. Max all if you don't. Yes rogues are skill monkeys, But they have to be since they don't have percentile based thieving abilities. Yes there is chance for abuse, but the DM (I prefer calling the person who is the game runner not the player that) has FINAL say in anything pertaining to his game. That is what the House Rulings are for.
Just want to add my voice to keeping skill points. I love the variability that skill points grant. Sure I can keep certain skills maxed, but I can also a few ranks in a knowledge or if I want my fighter to be able to spot I put some ranks in it. Plus, sometimes it is just nice having something to work on at those levels where you don't get much anything else (even in pathfinder some classes have that).
Other reason for not caring for the new system is the instant mastery. Granted, your ability with it has to increase over levels; but if you take a skill at level 12 with the new system you are just as good as a character that has been using it for 12 levels.
Yes, I would also like to see skill points retained. Your concept of acquiring skills as the character advances has merit, but I would suggest that new skills are acquired every third level (eg. 3rd, 6th, etc).
Alternatively, the character chooses a number his class skills as determined by Table 5-1 at 1st level, and that's it. Every other skill becomes a cross-class skill.
I too have found the new skill system to be somewhat "pigeon-hole-ish". My group and I experimented a bit with the skills, and found that when building experimental progressions in an isolated vacuum, many of us had no choice other than to finish with "cookie-cutter" versions of each other's character sheets.
I won't say get rid of the new "Saga" system from Pathfinder since it seems to be popular with some players, but I'd recommend adding a sidebar for the optional use of the old Skill Points Systems, or vice versa. This way people can keep the versatility and complexity if they desire, or just go the "package route".
|
I agree that tracking skills in the old system was way too much work for little reward. This system rewards leveling, and is somewhat simple to play. This one change greatly reduced the time for creating new characters, and will enable me to create NPCs more quickly! I like this change!
Thanks,
Scott
Unfortunately, after reading through the rules, and talking it over with my players, while I like skill points and the idea that you can have "just a little" skill on a few things to flesh out your character, I think in the long run that the new system makes more sense.
In a perfect world where its easier to calculate skill points and keep track of them and you have unlimited time, yes, skill points are great. In reality, as a DM at least, making an NPC from scratch is a pain unless I "fudge" them, in which case I'm already doing something similar to what is going on in Pathfinder.
My players initially didn't like the idea of loosing skill points, but they really didn't argue much when I showed them the new system, and after reading over the skills, they kind of warmed up to the idea, they just wished that they had a little more room to play with background skills.
One player, the cleric, had a character whose family were carpenters, so he took a few ranks in Craft (carpentry), and he also said that as an acolyte he used to cook for the others at the temple, so he took a few ranks in cooking as well. He had used the carpentry skill on issues important to the plot of the campaign, so he dropped his cooking skill.
The paladin's family were merchants, so she took Profession (Merchant), which she didn't have the points to support after we converted over. She basically just wanted to do simple things like figure out where coins were minted, trade routes, and trading coasters active in a given area.
What I would be interested in is if a trained skill might have some optional, sidebar uses, such as, perhaps, spending a trained skill on two "background" skills that are both used at +2 plus the ability mod, and never go up after the initial selection.
Another thing I was wondering is if a trained skill might be traded in for Skill focus in an existing skill, so that if people really don't see a character as getting more and more new skills as they progress might just sharpen their existing ones even more.
All of this aside, the bard player in my group absolutely loves linguistics.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. As a DM, I tried an exercise the other night, that being stating up the trained skills for a mature adult blue dragon. It took virtually no time at all to do. From the DMs point of view the new system is great.
Unfortunately, after reading through the rules, and talking it over with my players, while I like skill points and the idea that you can have "just a little" skill on a few things to flesh out your character, I think in the long run that the new system makes more sense.
ah yes welcome to the darkside brother embrace it ...yesssss you know you want to feel it's power......
ok now that that's out of the way the trained thing has promise and i like it.
After making a few characters for my new pbp I have decided I love the new skill rule. The desire to take 1st level in Rogue is still a little worrisome, but meh....
WOOHOO Kruelaid has came to the darkside ....your'll like it here wanna cookie
Contributor
|
If you decide to cherry pick rogue, you have to wait until 4th level to get your next skill and wizards will not have spellcraft or knowledge (arcana) as a class skills until then. Same with clerics and the skills they would need. Ride will not be a class skill for fighters.
Is there anything to prevent a PC from starting as rogue and taking spellcraft as cross-class, and then when they level up and take a level of wizard it becomes a class skill? Even if there is, taking it at cross-class level for three levels is not really a big difference (compared to the difference of 8+ skills versus 2+ skills). Especially when for one of those levels you are a rogue with no spells.
My new feeling is that if something like the current skill system is used, all classes should get four skills, and rogues should gain new skills faster (possibly including their first bonus skill at 1st level).
I also favor the idea of spending half a skill slot for a 'hobby skill' that acts like a cross-class skill.
RS i've been preaching pretty hard i guess for 4 skills for every one and 6 for bard/ranger and rogues with rogues gaing 2 skills instead of one at 4/8/16/20 level ...someone gonna hit me with something soon lol
First off, I think customization is very important for a hobby game such as this, but I also crave a more simplified and, frankly, efficient use of systems. I hate adding a few ranks in cross-class skills for fluff, only to find that my 'fluff' is either completely useless for the game or made obsolete by someone who takes max ranks in it.
I like what the World of Darkness system uses; you fill in dots, and however many dots you have mens you add another die to your pool. If we adopt this process for skills, saying that each dot equals, for the sake of example, a d6 you add to the skill roll. This not only allows a higher degree of customization for the character, it also adds a higher level of probability to skill checks.
well man thats just way to diff from 3.5 to be used for pathfinder.
I fail to see how this is much simplier than generating NPCs in 3.5. For 3.5, let's take a human fighter with a 13 INT. Basically pick 3 class skills and max them out regardless of hit dice. 1 hit dice, they have 4 ranks, 8 hit dice they have 11 ranks. Seems pretty simple. Now take the Alpha, well it starts off exactly the same at 1st level (the +3 seems a bit strange at this point, why not just use hit dice). Now let's jump up to 8th level, well now we have to pick ... 1 for 2nd level and 1 for 4th level and 1 for 6th and 1 for 8th, so now we have 4 more skills to train. Now I'm not going to suggest that is hard to do, but still it is more work generating an NPC than 3.5 for skills.
The only thing that might complicate 3.5 is when someone increases their INT score, as this can allow more skill points. A quick scan through Alpha, it does not say anything about what happens to skills when your INT increases.
ok lets see if it is harder
15th level human fighter int 12+1
*3.5 skills 7 possible skp 72 so that's 4 maxed out at level 1 so doing it fast he only has 4 skills maxing em would be +18 i need a calculator for that and you have 4
*alpha you get 3 at fist all at +3and one at every even that's 7 more all at +3+15 so that's 10 at +18 but if we only have 7 skills 3 are cross so there at a +3+7=+10 so 7 at +18 3 at +10 humm no calculator needed there
now rogue
*3.5 same set up int 12[+1 human
we get 9*4+4 that's 9 maxed out then 10*14 that's 140 more skp divide that by 9 is hummmmm 15.55555555555555555 so that's hummmm 9 *15 is 135 so you get 9 skills at +15 and one at +5
*now alpha
that's 9 +1 for human at +3 and 7 more at +3 so that's 17 at +3+15=+18
humm didn't need a calculator there
so yeah I can see how 3.5 and alpha are just as fast for making chars..sorry nice try press man no go though alpha is the clear winner here.
I fail to see how this is much simplier than generating NPCs in 3.5.
I'm not here to argue with you, but go make 5 x 5th level characters for each system, alternating, using pen, calculator and pencil only. By the fifth pair I think you will see what the 'no points' crowd is yammering about.
It is simpler, for better or worse.
|
|
I'm not here to argue with you, but go make 5 x 5th level characters for each system, alternating, using pen, calculator and pencil only. By the fifth pair I think you will see what the 'no points' crowd is yammering about.
It is simpler, for better or worse.
It's exactly the same, if you want it to be.
Under the skill ranks system there is *nothing stopping you* from just maxing out 8 skills with your Int 10 Elven Rogue. Boom. She's done.
Ooh, now the Barbarian, also Int 10, but Human, so he can max out *five* skills. Gosh, that was hard. I have to lie down...
Or, you can take a few skill ranks out of one of those skills and put them somewhere else, because this character is supposed to be from a family of horse merchants, and you want some Handle Animal and Ride in there. Also fast and easy and you *don't have to do it.*
If I want to use max ranks in X class skills, *I can already do that!*
The skill ranks system includes the option to just max out X skills, free of charge. Forced ranks restricts choices and is sounding increasingly complex with this 'add skills as you level up' concept.
Heck with complexity. I don't need that slowing me down!
set look at my post man you will see the difference in the too systems. I did 15th level human fighter and rogue with 3.5 and alpha . One system I had to use a calculator with it wasn't alpha.
|
|
set look at my post man you will see the difference in the too systems. I did 15th level human fighter and rogue with 3.5 and alpha . One system I had to use a calculator with it wasn't alpha.
15th level Elven Rogue, Int 10, Dex 20, Wis 10, Cha 14, Elf. 8 SP / level (x4 at 1st level).
Pick 8 skills, max them.
Acrobatics 18 (+23), Stealth 18 (+23), Disable Device 18 (+18), Sleight of Hand 18 (+23), Notice 18 (+18), Use Magic Device 18 (+20), Bluff 18 (+20), Gather Information 18 (+20)
Done. The most time spent was finding the darn SRD, which I should have bookmarked by now.
Want him to have Int 12? Add Knowledge (local) 18 (+19) and add one to his Disable Device modifier.
Want him to be Human? Add Disguise 18 (+20).
It's easy as pie to use skill ranks to copy the Pathfinder system.
set look at my post man you will see the difference in the too systems. I did 15th level human fighter and rogue with 3.5 and alpha . One system I had to use a calculator with it wasn't alpha.15th level Elven Rogue, Int 10, Dex 20, Wis 10, Cha 14, Elf. 8 SP / level (x4 at 1st level).
Pick 8 skills, max them.
Acrobatics 18 (+23), Stealth 18 (+23), Disable Device 18 (+18), Sleight of Hand 18 (+23), Notice 18 (+18), Use Magic Device 18 (+20), Bluff 18 (+20), Gather Information 18 (+20)
Done. The most time spent was finding the darn SRD, which I should have bookmarked by now.
Want him to have Int 12? Add Knowledge (local) 18 (+19) and add one to his Disable Device modifier.
Want him to be Human? Add Disguise 18 (+20).
It's easy as pie to use skill ranks to copy the Pathfinder system.
not for me I cant do math in my head well at all you went the say way and didnt start with any modifiers not a bad ideal really but it took me at lest 10 mins to start with a Int 12 human and a calculator with 3.5 alpha it did not that to me speaks load and clear . so if that works for ya cool but for some folks like me the math takes a while. oh and ya was off by 1 skill point.
ok lets see if it is harder
15th level human fighter int 12+1
*3.5 skills 7 possible skp 72 so that's 4 maxed out at level 1 so doing it fast he only has 4 skills maxing em would be +18 i need a calculator for that and you have 4
No offense, maybe it is because I just got up, but I am having a really hard time understanding you here. I don't know what you mean by (7 possible skp 72 so that's 4 maxed). I'll assume you are discussing a human 15th fighter with an INT of 12. Ok, so has maxed out skills of 2 from class, 1 from INT, and 1 from being human. Pick four class skills and max them so each has 18 ranks (level plus 3). By the way, this number of max skills (at first level) and the number of ranks in each is EXACTLY the same for alpha.
*alpha you get 3 at fist all at +3and one at every even that's 7 more all at +3+15 so that's 10 at +18 but if we only have 7 skills 3 are cross so there at a +3+7=+10 so 7 at +18 3 at +10 humm no calculator needed there
So now with alpha, I guess. Let's see, starting at first level, see above, pick four skills to train. Now raising to 15th level, let's see ...2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 13th, 14th ... 8 more skills to train. Well there are a total of seven class skills for fighter, he probably has already picked four at first level, so pick the other three and then pick five more to cross class. Maxed out "ranks" for class skills are 18 for cross-classes are "9". So not much harded, you just have to add in eight more skills than you did for 3.5 (*cough* power creep *cough*). By the way, if in the 3.5 situation you wanted to instead max out a cross-class skill, the number of ranks would have been 9, just like with Alpha.
now rogue
*3.5 same set up int 12[+1 human
we get 9*4+4 that's 9 maxed out then 10*14 that's 140 more skp divide that by 9 is hummmmm 15.55555555555555555 so that's hummmm 9 *15 is 135 so you get 9 skills at +15 and one at +5
... Yeah, again, not quite following. So 15th level human rogue in 3.5 with INT 12. Ok, so he gets to max out 1 extra for INT and 1 extra for being human, which means he can max out 10 total skills. Max ranks at 15th level is 18 (15+3) for class skills and 9 for cross-class skills. Pretty simple.
*now alpha
that's 9 +1 for human at +3 and 7 more at +3 so that's 17 at +3+15=+18
humm didn't need a calculator there
Again, it starts off the same, you get 10 skills to train at first level, and then you need to train 8 more skills (see fighter example) as you level. So in the end you need 18 skills maxed out, so you need to pick 8 more than you did for the 3.5. The "max skill ranks" is 18 for class and 9 for cross-class.
so yeah I can see how 3.5 and alpha are just as fast for making chars..sorry nice try pres man no go though alpha is the clear winner here.
Well since I'm not really understanding what you did, and I got the exact results without a calculator, I would suggest pulling back on the Differential Equations and try to get back to working with the Natural Numbers.
|
Skill points are okay in theory but the actual rules application is disjointed. Some classes get far too few points - clerics in particular. Then there is the problem of min/max.
If Pathfinder returns to skill points i suggest giving each player two allotments of points at each level. The first would be for class skills and the other for pursuits like craft, knowledge, profession and the like.
oh and ya was off by 1 skill point.
Uhm, no he wasn't. That +1 he added to Disable Device comes from the fact that the skill works with INT, which he raised to 12 before, so the ability bonus goes from +0 to +1. :)
Skill points are okay in theory but the actual rules application is disjointed. Some classes get far too few points - clerics in particular. Then there is the problem of min/max.
How does Pathfinder address either of these? Those classes that get "too few" still get too few trained skills (as compared to the other classes) and Pathfinder only allows min/maxing. You either have a skilled trained or you don't, that is the essense of min/maxing.
ok press man I'll try to explain this later I need to crash sorry for not explaining things more clear I am running on 3 days straight of no sleep because of prescription that makes me so freaking hyper I just want to jump a car over something.so I haven't been explaining things so well it made since to me but now I see how it kinda looks disjointed and doesn't make much since outside my head tonight or tomorrow I'll try and explain it better. I will say that I find the alpha method easier for me personally but its cool that yall can do the skills in your head I do not have that gift so I find the more streamlined less math intensive method to my liking.so I will post later after this gods forsaken med's have worn off gods I hate pills so much.
We can have a Skill Point based system and still have quick NPC/PC High-Level creation. *Nod to Kirth Gersen*, who's put the main ideas in a few threads already.
1) Cross-class skills cost 1 point.
2) Backdate Int Bonus increases.
3) Characters can save skill points they don't spend.
4) Keep cross-class maximum ranks (half of class skills).
By eliminating the odd cost for cross-class skills and backdating the Int bonus (like we currently do for Con & HP), we remove two of the biggest obstacles to tracking skill point costs. Further, by allowing characters to save skill points this creates a system for High-level characters to find the total number of Skill Points they should have and spend them all at once, no need to figure out where and when you actually would have needed to take the skill. The only issue is to keep an eye on class and feat perquisites to make sure they are(and could have been) met.
If you have multiple classes #4 works just like 3.5 does. All class skills on all classes you have, can have maximum ranks. Without the cost associated with Cross-Class skills(#1) there isn't a reason to hoard skill points(#3) until they become class skills through multi-classing.
Using this system I created the skill set for a 20th level Fighter 5/ Wizard 5/ Rogue 5/ Cleric 5 with minimum Int(13/+1) for casting in under five minutes, although I admit to using a calculator to keep my addition straight. He should have 99 skill points to spend. Any skill on the Fighter/Wizard/Rogue/Cleric lists can have a max rank of 23, while others are limited to 11. He could have 4 class skills at max ranks with 7 left over skill points(to save or spend).
[(2*4) 1st Fighter, (2 * 4 Lvl) Fighter, (2 * 5 Lvl) Wizard, (8*5 Lvl) Rogue, (2*5 Lvl) Cleric, (19*1)+(4*1) 99 skill points to spend on skills. (8, 8, 10, 40, 10, 23).
Whoops, miscounted on my trained skills (I told you I just woke up), though I would agrue that just shows that for a straight class Alpha can be more complicated than 3.5 for skills. Here are the comments corrected:
So now with alpha, I guess. Let's see, starting at first level, see above, pick four skills to train. Now raising to 15th level, let's see ...2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th ... 7 more skills to train. Well there are a total of seven class skills for fighter, he probably has already picked four at first level, so pick the other three and then pick four more to cross class. Maxed out "ranks" for class skills are 18 for cross-classes are "9". So not much harded, you just have to add in seven more skills than you did for 3.5 (*cough* power creep *cough*). By the way, if in the 3.5 situation you wanted to instead max out a cross-class skill, the number of ranks would have been 9, just like with Alpha.
And
Again, it starts off the same, you get 10 skills to train at first level, and then you need to train 7 more skills (see fighter example) as you level. So in the end you need 18 skills maxed out, so you need to pick 7 more than you did for the 3.5. The "max skill ranks" is 18 for class and 9 for cross-class.
I accidentally listed 13 as a level to get another trained skill originally and thus my count was eight when clearly it should have been seven. I apologize for anyone I confused.
|
|
We can have a Skill Point based system and still have quick NPC/PC High-Level creation. *Nod to Kirth Gersen*, who's put the main ideas in a few threads already.
1) Cross-class skills cost 1 point.
2) Backdate Int Bonus increases.
3) Characters can save skill points they don't spend.
4) Keep cross-class maximum ranks (half of class skills).
I like this. The only real difference from what I proposed as the system that should be used is that it keeps the cross-class skills capped. I'm actually okay with that. I wouldn't mind seeing no class/cross-class distinction, but I think that is probably an important aspect to many people.
So, just a few adjustments to which skills go where, and that would be a great, ultra quick system.
For skill points to work quickly, the only thing that needs to be done is be able to calculate the total number of points at any level and spend them. If there is no difference to when you can spend skills between a Rogue 1/Fighter 1 and Fighter 1/Rogue 1, the system is simple.
For that reason, I think that the number of skills shouldn't be multiplied at 1st level, but every class can get a higher number per level, evening out in just a few levels (usually between 3-6th, but as late as 9th for extremely high Int Rogues).
Seconded.
Wait, someone already did that, I think. Twohundredfortiethed.
Hey press man I know I confused ya a bit let me see if I can make some since out of my ramblings from this morning .now when ever you see ummm that means I have broken out a calculator
[quote=]15th level human fighter int 12+1
*3.5 skills 7 possible skp 72 so that's 4 maxed out at level 1 so doing it fast he only has 4 skills maxing em would be +18 i need a calculator for that and you have 4
****Ok a 15th level human fighter with an INT mod of +1
under 3.5 he has 7 class skills with 72 skill points now my math was3x4+4 is 16 divide that by 4 which is the max rank you get 4 skill so are fighter has 4 skills. lets say climb,jump.ride and swim .now you add for 14 levels that is 3+1 x14 making that ummm 56 more points and dividing 56 by 4 we get ummm +14 so adding +14+4 we get
climb+18
jump+18
ride+18
swim+18
**** Ok now alpha
15th level human fighter with a INT mod of +1
you get 3 skills at 1st level I did forget the extra one for being human so that is 4 lets say there are climb,ride survival and swim each being at 3+1 for level so that 4 skills at +4
now we add in a new skill for levels 2/4/6/8/10/12/14 that is7 new skills lets take
craft,handle animal,Intimidate,Knowledge (dungeoneering,Knowledge (engineering and two cross skills ,sneak and perception{it should be though}at +3+level and 3+1/2 level
climb+18
ride+18
survival+18
swim+18
craft+18
handle animal +18
Intimidate+18
knowledge +18
knowledge+18
sneak+10
perception+10[quote=]now rogue
*3.5 same set up int 12[+1 human
we get 9*4+4 that's 9 maxed out then 10*14 that's 140 more skp divide that by 9 is hummmmm 15.55555555555555555 so that's hummmm 9 *15 is 135 so you get 9 skills at +15 and one at +5
Now 3.5 15th level human rogue INT mod of 0 just to keep my math right with earlier since I messed it up and you are right with 10 its easy but I was not aiming for 10 since that does not show the flaw.
29 possible skills. so 8x4+4 36 divide that by 4 and you get 9 skills at +4 hide ,move silently spot,search,open locks ,balance,escape artist, climb and gather information at+4
now add in the other levels that 8+1 making it 9 x14 that is ummmm 126 skill points dividing that by 9 is ummmmm +14 not sure how i got the wild odd number this morning i was hyper and sleepy odd mix there.
so that is
hide+18
MS+18
spot+18
search+18
open locks +18
balance+18
EA+18
climb+18
gather Information+18
now I will admit I made a mistake in my math this morning but that goes to show just how math intensive 3.5 is for some of us.
[quote=]*now alpha
that's 9 +1 for human at +3 and 7 more at +3 so that's 17 at +3+15=+18
humm didn't need a calculator there
***Alpha now
lets go human 15th level rogue no Int mod snce I messed that up on the 3.5 onethey have 21 possible skills.8 skills +1 for human that's 9 lets take.
acrobatics,climb,deception,stealth,theft,Escape Artist
, Intimidate , Knowledge (dungeoneering and appraise at +4
now they get 7 more skills one at 2/4/6/8/10/12/14
lets take Linguistics , Perception, Perform ,profession and 3 cross skills Knowledge (nature)Handle Animal Heal ant 3+ leve and 3+1/2 level
that is
acrobatics+18
climb+18
deception+18
stealth+18
theft+18
Escape Artist+18
Intimidate+18
Knowledge (dungeoneering+18
appraise+18
Linguistics+18
Perception+18
Perform+18
profession+18
Knowledge (nature)+10
Handle Animal+10
Heal+10
now for me the alpha math was much easier and I needed nothing but the book and my fingers to pick skills. were with 3.5 I have to have at the very lest pen and paper. now for thous of you that can do all that math in your head great but some of us can not and alpha speed my NPC making up by at lest 50% no kidding it really did much less making char's
I would also like to point out I really blew the math this morning but that makes it even more clear to me that an alpha like system is needed does it need some work some yes is it faster then 3.5 yes will every one like it no. does every one like 3.5 system no.
Now I will say I would like to keep skill points in a side bare as an option for thous that love them but I do think the alpha system should be default for ease of use and speed of creation. I even have one player who always had issues with skill points forgetting this or that or messing his math up he was able to use the alpha with ease and loved it.
|
|
[My suggestion (and I'll just keep beating this drum) is to make skill points worth more, somewhere between +2 and +5 each, and then reduce the total number of skill points accordingly. If they're +2, then halve the total. If they're +5, then 1/5th the total (or thereabouts, the total number of skill points is pretty arbitrary right now anyway). This will simplify the skill-buying process a lot. Think about it. If skill points are worth +2 each, then you're doing exactly half the math of distributing them.
Dunno why I'm the only one who thought of this!
The reason I'm not beating that drum with you is that it gives you half as many options. The worth of a skill point is nearly irrelevant - but the number of skill choices is important.
Let us say that I normally have 4 skill ranks each level. If I received 2 skill points (each worth 2) instead of putting them in four different skills, I could only put them in two different skills (but with twice as many ranks). Now, if I alternate skills this might work, but it kind of gets wonky.
Try it out. Choose any class, but try to divide your skills over 7 skills in some variation.
Hey press man
Yo, and it's pres man (one s), thanks.
Look dude, you are just making it more complicated than it needs to be. Here I'm going to pick the skills for a 15th level human fighter with a 12 INT. Comments in [].
Skill Points at 1st Level
(2 + Int modifier [this is the number of skills that I'm going to max]) ×4 [each skill gets 4 ranks = 1st level + 3]. [Humans get 4 skill points at 1st level, notice this equivalent to maxing out one additional skill]
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
2 + Int modifier. [same as number of skills I maxed at 1st level, I can continue to max them, each increasing by 1 point per level, i.e. ranks = HD + 3] [Again humans get an additional skill point each level so that their one additional maxed skill can continue to be maxed]
I pick four skills [2 from class, 1 from human, 1 from INT]:
*Climb
*Handle Animal
*Intimidate
*Jump
All skills have ranks = HD + 3 = 15 + 3 = 18
Notice, not once did I calculate the total number of skill points, though that is easy to do now 18*4 = 72 (I did use a calculator, but mainly because I was lazy and this was a meaningless calculation), nor did the fact that fighter having 7 class skills even become an issue.
Now let's look at the Alpha Rules:
At first level a fighter gets to train 4 skills, 2 due to class, 1 due to human, and 1 due to INT 12. Notice this exactly the same number of skills I trained above. Now look at how you roll the skill checks for this class:
Trained Class Skill 1d20 + Character level + 3 + ability modifier + racial modifier
Notice the bolded part, that is the exact same as the number of ranks in 3.5 (for a single class character) = HD + 3. So it is no harder to calculate the skill level for those four initial skills in either system. It is the exact same thing.
But now in Alpha, we have to train another 7 skills. We can pick the rest of the class skills and then cross class the rest. Again this is not any harder, but it does add in additional work. See with 3.5, if you are just a single class character and you max out a few skills, you are basically done at 1st level with your skills, you just have to just remember that your number of ranks is your level + 3 (again this is the same in Alpha).
Now, 3.5 skill points can be more work if you multiclass, or raise your INT, or want to split up your skills into a lot more skills that are not maxed out. But the point is, none of that is actually necessary (well the INT thing might be for Wizards).
Hey press manYo, and it's pres man (one s), thanks.
Look dude, you are just making it more complicated than it needs to be. Here I'm going to pick the skills for a 15th level human fighter with a 12 INT. Comments in [].
Skill Points at 1st Level
(2 + Int modifier [this is the number of skills that I'm going to max]) ×4 [each skill gets 4 ranks = 1st level + 3]. [Humans get 4 skill points at 1st level, notice this equivalent to maxing out one additional skill]Skill Points at Each Additional Level
2 + Int modifier. [same as number of skills I maxed at 1st level, I can continue to max them, each increasing by 1 point per level, i.e. ranks = HD + 3] [Again humans get an additional skill point each level so that their one additional maxed skill can continue to be maxed]I pick four skills [2 from class, 1 from human, 1 from INT]:
*Climb
*Handle Animal
*Intimidate
*JumpAll skills have ranks = HD + 3 = 15 + 3 = 18
Notice, not once did I calculate the total number of skill points, though that is easy to do now 18*4 = 72 (I did use a calculator, but mainly because I was lazy and this was a meaningless calculation), nor did the fact that fighter having 7 class skills even become an issue.
Now let's look at the Alpha Rules:
At first level a fighter gets to train 4 skills, 2 due to class, 1 due to human, and 1 due to INT 12. Notice this exactly the same number of skills I trained above. Now look at how you roll the skill checks for this class:Trained Class Skill 1d20 + Character level + 3 + ability modifier + racial modifier
Notice the bolded part, that is the exact same as the number of ranks in 3.5 (for a single class character) = HD + 3. So it is no harder to calculate the skill level for those four initial skills in either system. It is the exact same thing.
But now in Alpha, we have to train another 7 skills. We can pick the rest of the class skills and then cross class the rest. Again this is not any...
Cool one s got ya seen it wrong. and yeah your version works out pretty much the same as alpha in a lot of ways.Truth me told I am not good with math and I have never thought of doing it that way. but it pretty much is the same.and yes seeing how you did it I made it a lot harder but seems I am not the only one who did that don't make me feel as bad lol. Still for me I like the alpha way but wish your's had been in a dmg side bar it would have helped alot.
Here is a thought. Just convert the current system into a skill system.
You about eliminate cross class skills by getting rid of the cross class max rank. I believe this would equate to you being able to spend 2 points in a cross class skill at each level for a full rank.
Keep the skills with the new addition for the most part (I don't like the fly skill really).
That way skill points should be fine, and if they don't want the complication then they can just go with their simplicity.
Just adding my group's opinion to the mix. We managed to squeeze in a game over the Easter Weekend (Lords of Oblivion - we're nearly through it now!) and after having a look through the Alpha rules, the party rogue said '...but I need my skill points - how else can I keep making DC 45 rolls?'
After further (serious) consideration, the general concensus was that nobody had any real issues with tracking skill points the way they currently do - most of us can count to 20 without taking off our shoes, so its not that big a deal.
Reggie
I like the new system. Anything to streamline where possible while retaining depth is a good thing, in my opinion. I've heard they are already considering revising it based on the responses. If so, I hope they can find something a bit more streamlined and elegant than simply changing it back to the way it was. (Although, I guess I was never bothered by it before, it was just time consuming to create NPCs, so...)