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Pathfinder Suggestion #1
Hi guys,
First off, we know that your Alpha 1 release doesn't deal with the paladin, but our group has already started to re-examine 3.5 rules with an eye to improving less than effective rules.
The paladin, in my house rules, fixes a number of issues
1) smite evil is made more effective, compared to class abilities such as sneak attack, or feat abilities such as Power Attack, and scales with other bonuses a paladin might gain as he levels up.
2) the issue of a mount being useful or not was addressed much like how you dealt with familiars of wizards in Alpha 1, offering an alternative. In this case, a cohort at 5th level. Arthur or Roland would have likely appreciate this option.
3) The paladin class overall is weak, compared to a fighter or a barbarian. Coupled with its alignment and multiclassing restrictions, it deserves some excitement at each level, and some powers that are faithful to the paladin in previous versions. So we added auras for a special at-will ability.
Ladies and gentlemen, here is our version of the Paladin ...
PALADIN
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals double damage.
If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.
At 4th level, the paladin’s smite evil attempt additionally counts as a magical weapon for overcoming damage reduction and striking incorporeal creatures, in addition to any properties of the weapon wielded; at 7th level the paladin’s smite evil attempt also counts as a good weapon; at 10th level the paladin’s smite evil attempt also counts as a cold iron weapon; at 13th level, a paladin’s smite evil attempt also counts as a silver weapon. All these properties to overcome damage reduction added to the smite evil attempt only function if the creature struck is evil.
Special Mount (Sp): … If a paladin wishes, instead of gaining the service of a special mount, they may alternately gain the services of a stalwart companion. This stalwart companion works exactly like a cohort gained by the Leadership feat, and might be a loyal human fighter who acts as a squire, or it might be a celestial creature sent from a good plane to assist the paladin; however, the companion must always be Lawful Good. Should the paladin ever lose their status as a paladin, their companion departs. If the stalwart companion dies, another companion can be summoned or retained by the paladin after thirty days or she gains an additional paladin level. If a paladin also takes Leadership as a feat, their effective Leadership score suffers a -2 penalty as they already have a special companion. HR
Holy Aura: At 8th level, a paladin can produce an aura at will, which is effectively an area effect spell centered on the paladin, which affects the paladin and all allies who are within 10 feet, regardless of the range listed on the spell. If an ally leaves the range of the aura, the effect on themselves ends immediately. The aura has an indefinite duration, and the paladin can change the aura to a different spell effect as a standard action, and may only have one aura effect at any given time. They may choose from any of these 1st level paladin spells: bless, bless weapon, divine favor, endure elements, magic weapon, protection from evil, resistance or virtue.
At 11th level she may create an aura and choose from the following 2nd level paladin spells: bull’s strength, delay poison, eagle’s splendor, owl’s wisdom, resist energy (paladin chooses one type for aura), zone of truth.
At 14th level she may create an aura and choose from the following 3rd level paladin spells: magic circle against chaos, magic circle against evil, greater magic weapon, prayer.
At 17th level she may create an aura and choose from the following 4th level paladin spells: death ward, holy sword, and neutralize poison. House Rule
I like the OPs Smite Evil effect- will probably cherrypick it.
Not that keen on the cohort thing because I dont really like cohorts (or other NPC's) - though I think the mount is pretty ordinary too, just dont know what to do with it.
I quite like the Holy Aura idea
here is my House rule:
3rd level add Divine Purge 1/day
6th level replace Remove Disease 1/week with Divine Purge 2/day
9th level replace Remove Disease 2/week with Divine Purge 3/day
12th level replace Remove Disease 3/week with Divine Purge 4/day
15th level replace Remove Disease 4/week with Divine Purge 5/day
18th level replace Remove Disease 5/week with Divine Purge 6/day
Divine Purge (Su): Beginning at 3rd level a paladin can purge certain restrictions from a character. The effect of the purge varies with level.
At 3rd level it acts as a Remove Fear or a Remove Disease,
At 6th level it increases in power to also act as a Lesser restoration or a Remove paralysis,
At 9th level it will also Remove Blindness/Deafness or Remove Curse,
At 12th level it can also act as a Neutralise Poison or a Restoration, At 15th level it can Break Enchantment or Dispel Evil,
At 18th level it can act as a Greater Restoration or a Regenerate (including healing hit points). Also at 18th level it removes all the effects listed under the Heal spell, (though it doesn’t restore hit points as a heal).
The paladin may choose which effect to use or the purge will just work against the most debilitating effect on the character - no material components are required
It is range touch, a standard action, provokes an attack of opportunity
Reason: The current Remove Disease ability is so minor and infrequent it is barely worth having. What a 9th level Paladin can do in a week a 5th level Cleric can do in a day. Giving a limited number of uses complements the paladin’s role a healer warrior though the abilities are generally not available until after the Cleric has already got them. This helps the cleric out so they don’t necessarily have to remember these spells.
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1) smite evil is made more effective, compared to class abilities such as sneak attack, or feat abilities such as Power Attack, and scales with other bonuses a paladin might gain as he levels up.
3) The paladin class overall is weak, compared to a fighter or a barbarian. Coupled with its alignment and multiclassing restrictions, it deserves some excitement at each level, and some powers that are faithful to the paladin in previous versions. So we added auras for a special at-will ability.
I think the Main problem is right here... you are comparing a Class that has casting abilities to classes that don't. Paldins lose some combat ability to recieve Spell casting. The classes you are comparing paladin to do not.
Paladin should be compared to classes of similar balance like Ranger, and combat abilites should be of similar power.
I think your ideas though cool are to overpowering when you bring in the fact that they can also Cast spells and turn undead *At a weaker version though*
Though I like the Mount Idea...
Edit: Though I do think Paladins do need a revamp, especially at high levels. Paladins are one of the few classes that high levels are almost worthless.
I agree - these changes are quite a bit overpowering on the Paladin. Also were you still basing your Smite Evil on 3.0? Paladins get more than one per day. And it *does* scale up nicely, +1 dam per level? That is usually stronger than just "double damage" after the first few levels. One thing about smites is that you can crit and double them, which you can't do with sneak attack, or with the system you proposed (two doublings would be a tripling).
The auras are just too.. blah.
I like the Divine Purge - but ranged touch? Should definitely be touch - Paladins are very hands on.
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All that I can ask is if people are going to do the Paladin Class is that they consider one thing - not all Paladins need top be Lawful Good. This has always been a bugbear of mine since the class first was introduced.
Lets face it, most Law-men are Lawful Neutral. So if we are going to have Paladins (or Anti Paldins) let us not forget our Lawful Neutral brothers who are probably the ones sent on the "not so good-good" missions as infiltrators, etc.
Sorry this may seem a little off topic here as its not about rules at all.
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Hi guys,
One of the reasons I made the changes I did, was to change the paladin class as little as possible. If you start changing the number of smites per day, you end up invalidating other printed paladins out there in adventures -- I was trying to save myself work for not having to rewrite NPCs.
However, if you change the smite mechanic, you end up with a slightly cooler ability. I mean, if you get it once per day to start, it should be a little more dramatic than +2 to hit, and +1 damage at 1st level.
I know the paladin is a spellcaster, but right now, we've had paladins in our group that are just not as effective overall. One of my players rightly pointed out that a multiclass fighter/cleric is more powerful than a cleric at almost every level combination possible -- they get more feats, a slightly smaller BAB, similar saves, more powerful casting and turn undead abilities, and so on.
I'm interested to hear how people think what I've house-ruled is overpowering ...
Paladin or Variant Alignment Paladin works nice as a +1 LA template for any PC similar to the Saint template. The HD, BAB and Saves are not applied just the class specials.
Director of Game Design
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Interesting ideas and you might very well find me stealing a few of them. I had been thinking about upgrading the smite in ways similar to your suggestion.
Holy auras... that seems good to me. I think I need to find a bit more of a streamlined way of using them though. This will go into my "ideas" book.
Keep up the good work.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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In regards to the Paladin, I've been reworking it for my campaign world to be a Prestige Class like Blackguard, and similarly reworking Blackguard to be mostly equal to Paladin(albeit he's a shadowy reflection of the Paladin); where both are now essentially Holy/Unholy warriors of divine orders.
The basic idea is taken from Unearthed Arcana, where you essentially have to be a fifth level Cleric to qualify.
I won't get into the nitty-gritty, but this way, the Paladin gains more spellcasting capabilities, loses a little of the BAB, gets the mount a level later, and loses one use each of Smite and Remove Disease, but the Paladin levels stack with Cleric levels for daily Turn attempts. I've also loosened the Paladin's alignment restriction from LG to LG/LN. The Blackguard retains the Any Evil alignment, however.
By Unearthed Arcana, the Paladin's Spellcasting capability gets up to par with the Cleric's. Personally, I'm uncertain about that, and am considering dropping it to a maximum of 7th spell level.
Interesting ideas and you might very well find me stealing a few of them. I had been thinking about upgrading the smite in ways similar to your suggestion.
How about Smite built more like sneak attack or skirmish, where every few levels, the to hit or damage bonus improves, and its usable every time the character is fighting an evil creature?
Holy auras... that seems good to me. I think I need to find a bit more of a streamlined way of using them though. This will go into my "ideas" book.
I also like the Auras concept. Just a thought - perhaps auras could replace spellcasting for the Paladin. I have always thought of a Paladin as being a wrrior first, and the spellcasting, as limited as it is, never felt "right" to me anyway. Just a thought.
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Holy auras... that seems good to me. I think I need to find a bit more of a streamlined way of using them though. This will go into my "ideas" book.
I'd love to see a more elegant method for auras -- what I did was pick paladin spells that would make interesting auras, and allow a 1st level paladin spell as an aura when the character was eligible for 2nd level spells, and so on.
The main thing I drew inspiration from was the AD&D paladin, who had an aura of protection from evil all the time ...
Interesting ideas and you might very well find me stealing a few of them. I had been thinking about upgrading the smite in ways similar to your suggestion.
Holy auras... that seems good to me. I think I need to find a bit more of a streamlined way of using them though. This will go into my "ideas" book.
Keep up the good work.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
One way to tackle this would be to have an "aura bonus." Whenever a paladin first gets their auras, this bonus would be a simple +1. It would then scale over levels to around +5 at 20th level. The effects of a paladin's aura would be based on this bonus. For example, say you had Striking Aura. This could grant the paladin's aura bonus to melee attack rolls. Shielding Aura could give the same to AC. For balance, these might only apply to undead and evil outsiders. Alternately, the paladin could choose what a kind of foe to apply them against, such as giants, dragons, undead, or aberrations. The danger would be encroaching on the ranger's territory.
You could also have a Healing Aura which granted fast healing equal to the paladin's aura bonus (and perhaps set a maximum number of hit points the aura could heal each day). Resistance Aura could grant energy resistance to one energy type equal to (5 x aura bonus). Lifekeeping Aura could provide the bonus on saves versus necromancy and death effects. You get the idea.
The auras themselves could have a radius based on the paladin's Charisma bonus, a pre-set duration (it could scale with level, or be static; likewise, it could be expressed in anything from minutes to tens of minutes to hours). The number of auras a paladin could use in a day would be a pre-set, scaling number, similar to how smites are currently.* I'd like to see enough auras to choose from that an individual paladin couldn't have all of them, and could thus differentiate himself from other paladins.
Also, the unofficially designated paladin-player in my group has often voiced a desire for some type of flat bonus to attacks and/or damage against undead and evil outsiders. Call it "Righteousness" or something; start with a +2 and add some more as levels increase, perhaps up to +5 at around 20th level. That way, without using any other special abilities, a paladin has an inherent bonus against their classic foes. I would actually suggest adding dragons to the list as well. The chivalric knight slaying the evil dragon is a staple of legend and lore, and who better to pull this off than a paladin? Plus, players want bonuses when fighting dragons (because dragons are a royal pain in the ass!), yet specializing in fighting dragons is rarely a good decision because they are so rare that the specialization would only get used a few times per campaign.
My 2cp.
*As an aside, I'd like to see the uses of smites per day set to 1+ Cha bonus so that you can actually use the things a respectable amount at low levels. Maybe even make smite bonus damage 1d6 + paladin level; this would be significant at lower levels, while fading in importance at the high end of the spectrum.
Ok here is are Paladin changes
1st Smite evil {is usable once per encounter}Aura of good, detect evil
2nd Divine grace, lay on hands
3rd Aura of courage, divine health
4th Turn undead
5th they also gain Smiting charge, remove disease 1/wk, mount
6th Aura of conviction [+2 to enchantment and charm]
8th remove disease 2/wk
9th Aura of determination [+4 to will saves]
10th Holy Smite extra 1d6 damage vs evil
11th Remove disease 3/wk
12th Aura of righteousness[+2 to attack/damage to all allies in 20'1/day]
14th remove disease 4/wk
15th Aura of divine might[[x2 cha mod to smite],holy smite 2d6
17th Remove disease 5/wk
18th Aura of contentment [Immune to mind affecting magic/ability's]
20th Remove disease 6/wk, Holy smite 3d6
Just a quick idea, not sure if it has already been covered but.
I would like to see palidins moved away from a set LG alignments
I would like to see them put into a position where there power comes form, there sense of commitement to a divine power.
I would like to see lawful evil palidins, purging entire city blocks of 'deviancy' in the name of Goodly aligned gods.
To me palidins should be about zelotry and unshakable faith in a god or philosophy. Not 'we are the shining examplers of Lawful goodness.'
To me palidins should be about zelotry and unshakable faith in a god or philosophy. Not 'we are the shining examplers of Lawful goodness.'
Can I ask why? From their first appearance up through 3e, paladins have always been about law and goodness, with goodness being the more important of the two (which is why the commission of an evil act immediately causes the paladin to lose all his special abilities until he atones for it).
To me palidins should be about zelotry and unshakable faith in a god or philosophy. Not 'we are the shining examplers of Lawful goodness.'
Zealotry, btw. :)
An interesting view (see below), but a person that had unshakable faith and zealotry to an evil god would:
a) behave in an entirely different way
b) have entirely different needs in terms of abilities. You could of course adapt the existing abilities (smite evil becomes smite good, for example) but that seems boring to me. If you really want a champion for a non-paldinic deity or alignment: make one.
The blackguard is NOT an example of this, since a blackguard's design goal is to create a "fallen Paladin" (for Eddings fans: Martel).
There used to be a fan based attempt back in the 1st edition days, a document titled "Champions of the Alignments": Eight additional classes each with their own set of abilities. I don't recall the author, unfortunately.
The view that Paladin is about unshakeable faith/zealotry in a god or philosophy is a misconception of the intended spirit of the Paladin. A paladin's goal is to do the right thing. All the time, every time, without exception. In word and in deed. Even to the point of arguing with their deity, if necessary...
The view that Paladin is about unshakeable faith/zealotry in a god or philosophy is a misconception of the intended spirit of the Paladin. A paladin's goal is to do the right thing. All the time, every time, without exception. In word and in deed. Even to the point of arguing with their deity, if necessary...
Very well put.
maliszew and Feaelin:
I will keep this very simple and in point formate to try and avoid rambling.
It boils down to one simple thing. LG Palidins are restrictive.
- just because something has always been one way, does not mean it always should.
-Alignment is a clumsy and childish morality system at the best of times, even before adding class based restriction.
-What prevents LE CG CE NG or any other alignment combination god having a champion that fits with them? What is special about LG?
History is full of people who Beleived they where doing 'the right thing' yet where commiting horrible atrosities. You can tell much more interesting stories when you have options.
For instance, you currently cant really tell stories about palidins who have the 'fortitude of spirit' to order a city block put to the touch, to prevent the spread of a magicial plague to protect the larger population. You can't deal with idea's like power corrupts or religious intollerance.
History is full of people who Beleived they where doing 'the right thing' yet where commiting horrible atrosities. You can tell much more interesting stories when you have options.
For instance, you currently cant really tell stories about palidins who have the 'fortitude of spirit' to order a city block put to the touch, to prevent the spread of a magicial plague to protect the larger population. You can't deal with idea's like power corrupts or religious intollerance.
All these stories are possible in D&D. The only "problem" is that a paladin who torches a city block to prevent the spread of a plague has transgressed the strictures of his alignment and is no longer a paladin. Now, fallen paladins are cool and the blackguard prestige class even gives extra powers to individuals who were once paragons of goodness and have fallen to corruption but the point is they are ex-paladins.
It sounds to me like your concerns have little to do with the paladin class and far more to do with alignment. If that's the case, there's not much to be done, as alignment is pretty central to D&D and I'd be hard pressed to imagine Pathfinder ditching it. So far, the Paizo crew has demonstrated the ability to tell dramatically complex stories within the bounds of the alignment system, so I doubt it's a major issue for them.
oh yeah, i have huge problems with alignment. And paizo have done really well within its constraints.
However, why have either 'alignment paragons' or 'divine paragons' tied only to LG? Surely it makes more sense to have a base class with powers associated with Alignment, which can choose the alignment it is associate with?
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Unearthed arcana has a take on paladins of different alignments that the above poster might find interesting. They seem to stick to paladins falling into one of the extremes still(LG, CG, LE, CE) without being neutral, because their fervor when it comes to their beliefs leads to being that far to one end or another. However it does give a different lineup of abilities based on different codes.
I personally feel that lawful good is the right way to go for the core paladin class, they are lawful due to how stringent they are in their personal code and morals, and their belief(and abilities) focus on serving the people, as does their loss of power should they step away from that.
With that said, I've also always enjoyed the idea of an 'anti-paladin' as we saw in 2e. I think it fits because there can be that same zealotry for evil as there is for good, and while a blackguard is perfect for a fallen paladin, it doesn't account for one who walks forward in darkness not because he has faltered but because he believes it is right. The champion of evil is pretty common in literature as well and it makes sense to be able to play it in D&D. Perhaps something as simple as a side bar or a note pointing out that the aura of good is now an aura of evil and lay on hands does negative energy rather then positive, or the like could allow the adaptation of these kind of villians.
oh yeah, i have huge problems with alignment. And paizo have done really well within its constraints.
However, why have either 'alignment paragons' or 'divine paragons' tied only to LG? Surely it makes more sense to have a base class with powers associated with Alignment, which can choose the alignment it is associate with?
The paladin is an alignment paragon primarily in the sense that a paladin believes and acts according to X, Y, and Z and since X, Y, and Z map onto the alignment called Lawful Good, all paladins are Lawful Good.
To put it another way, paladins are all Lawful Good in the same way that all fathers are male. Being Lawful Good isn't so much a requirement of being a paladin as a fact of being a paladin. Being a paladin isn't a club you join or even a profession you take up; it's who you are.
The paladin is an alignment paragon primarily in the sense that a paladin believes and acts according to X, Y, and Z and since X, Y, and Z map onto the alignment called Lawful Good, all paladins are Lawful Good.
To put it another way, paladins are all Lawful Good in the same way that all fathers are male. Being Lawful Good isn't so much a requirement of being a paladin as a fact of being a paladin. Being a paladin isn't a club you join or even a profession you take up; it's who you are.
Well said, Maliszew.
-------------------------------------------------------------------To somewhat bring the thread back on to topic:
The Paladin and Ranger seem to have a problem in that:
They have spells, which at first seems cool and balances out what they might otherwise have instead. BUT.
My impression is that those spells come too late in the game and are overshadowed by the spellcasting ability of druid, cleric, wizard, sorcerer.
So I wonder: Should the spells be replaced with something else? Should they come sooner, but be slower paced? Do other groups get more mileage out of spells for Rangers/Paladins than we have?
For example, I really like the "holy aura" for paladin ideas, at least conceptually. That is in following with the Leadership nature a paladin is supposed to have.
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I wouldn't mind the Paladin and Ranger losing their spells. It never seemed to be something that I ever got to play with...
As far as the Paladin's identity...maliszew's post hit the nail on the head. "It's who you are"...as a pastor for a number of years this definition fits what one could call a "call to ministry." It is an identity that results in one playing as a lawful good, but that is merely a symptom of the deeper identity...it is not a root cause. Nicely done!
Thanks,
Scott
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1) smite evil: this should be treated much like and very similar to the treatment of turn undead. An ability that when used does damage each time but more vs evil subtypes, Perhaps it should be used much like a turn ability but requires the use of the paladins weapon.
2) a mount: I have always liked this idea but it may need some fixing since it is not always the best one for a game of dungeon delving. As such lets make an item that is powered by divine energy such as a holy sword that way any paladin of sufficient level Has a holy weapon and all truly powerful paladins may have a holy avenger or something equally useful.
3) "The paladin class overall is weak, compared to a fighter or a barbarian." If made wrong I most certainly agree however expanding on the Paladins Aura as others have suggested might be a way to go. Sort of like the Marshal character from the Miniatures guide a Paladin could use his aura to enhance all his allies who are close to him, say 30' and they could get bonuses to attack or defense or healing ect... just by his presence. much like a bards song.
Just my two cents.
The only thing I thought was broken was giving Holy Sword as an aura. Way too powerful.
My thoughts added to above:
I would be fine with seeing spells replaced with auras. Offensive/defensive and utility?
With getting rid of spells though, I would like to see some restorative abilities. Such as lesser restoration, remove curse, remove paralysis, remove blindness etc.(remove disease) as class abilities.
Get rid of lay on hands and wrap it up into the new turning mechanic. Have turning equal to cleric.
Move the saving throw bonus ability up to 3rd level. Reduces 'dipping' into the class.
smiting- keep it but no special thoughts.
alignment- fine either way on this one.
mount- would like to see alternatives here. If you do keep it, please make it a 'real' horse or whatever creature, not some magically disappearing/reappearing thing.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I, too, am of the belief that Paladins are grossly underpowered. I think the Smite needs some beefing up and I really like the idea of Paladin auras. Here's my take on it:
2nd level: Aura of Courage. Same as it's always been. Paladin is immune to fear, allies within 10' get +4 vs. fear.
Then...
8th level: Aura of Clarity. Paladin gains immunity to charms and compulsions. Allies within 10' get +4 vs. charms and compulsions.
11th level: Captivating Presence. All auras' radii increased by 5'.
14th level: Aura of Freedom. Paladin gains the benefits of freedom of movement permanently. Allies within 15' get +4 vs. effects that freedom of movement would protect against.
20th level: Glorious Visage. All auras' radii increased by an additional 5'.
AND: Aura of Righteousness. Paladin gains immunity to death effects and energy drain. Allies within 20' get +4 vs. death effects and energy drain.
Note that all of these auras are always on as long as the Paladin is conscious. I also think that Paladins should get a bonus feat at 1st, 6th, 12th, and 18th level chosen from the Fighter bonus list (including Weapon Specialization, but only in their deity's favored weapon).
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I like what I see so far. I think a little fine tuning and this would be great. I think that maybe you could use less auras and give them ability to project there auras upon their companions. I would think that the Paladin being an Awe inspiring individual, that some of his power would empower you some.
I, too, am of the belief that Paladins are grossly underpowered. I think the Smite needs some beefing up and I really like the idea of Paladin auras. Here's my take on it:
2nd level: Aura of Courage. Same as it's always been. Paladin is immune to fear, allies within 10' get +4 vs. fear.
Then...
8th level: Aura of Clarity. Paladin gains immunity to charms and compulsions. Allies within 10' get +4 vs. charms and compulsions.
11th level: Captivating Presence. All auras' radii increased by 5'.
14th level: Aura of Freedom. Paladin gains the benefits of freedom of movement permanently. Allies within 15' get +4 vs. effects that freedom of movement would protect against.
20th level: Glorious Visage. All auras' radii increased by an additional 5'.
AND: Aura of Righteousness. Paladin gains immunity to death effects and energy drain. Allies within 20' get +4 vs. death effects and energy drain.
Note that all of these auras are always on as long as the Paladin is conscious. I also think that Paladins should get a bonus feat at 1st, 6th, 12th, and 18th level chosen from the Fighter bonus list (including Weapon Specialization, but only in their deity's favored weapon).
Giving this many always on immunities may be a little too strong. I know there has been discussion about turning immunities into large bonuses instead. I would be interested to see some of these ideas incorporated for play testing.
The Fist of Raziel, from the Book of Exalted Deeds, is what levels 5-15 of Paladin should actually have been.
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And here's an ability for Good Paladins, which would make a quest for Good that much more interesting: Moment of Revelation: A Paladin may call upon the Powers of Good to force a foe to face their greatest adversery: their own evil. At the very least, this can confuse a foe. At it's greatest effect, it can end hostilities or even send a foe on a quest for Atonement.
That's a very interesting ability, very similar to the Ghost Rider's Penance Stare. I think it would make for an interesting mid-level ability (perhaps 7th lvl?).
I like it mainly because it has a strong role-playing element tied into it. I imagine it could work very similar to the phantasmal killer spell, in that the paladin can't really see what the recipient of the "stare" sees and there is a Will save to recognize that what he/she is seeing is not real. But rather than inflicting damage, it imposes a condition (say, cowering, for example, if failed or, shaken, if the save succeeds). And of course, the saves would be modified by Charisma. If this is could be made into an aura, that would be even more awesome (and would actually make me inclined to be a little more receptive of the "auras" concept that alot of people have voiced be given to the paladin as she progresses as it has more than just a combat application and it calls to the fore the very qualities that make a paladin a paragon of good). Of course, some foes would be more resistant than others (evil clerics, blackguards, etc.) and they could have a bonus to their saves based on the strength of their own auras or something like that (not sure how I'd work it, but that also has a good feel to it).I think it has potential. I do indeed.
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Varient Paladins in the Core Class-
Why not a Paladin varient for each Alignment? There would be a switch out on certain abilites, and a sub-title. (G Paladin: Cavalier, N Paladin: Myrmeidion, CE Paladin: Despoiler, ect)
My basic take is that the paladin was an iconic fantasy class added based on the concept of the holy, righteous character. It wasn't added into the game so any aligned guys could be powerful champions of their diety (technically, isn't that a cleric?) but was added into the game so that the flavor and story of the holy fighter, filled with righteousness, and willing to throw himself or herself into the potentially fatal battle would be available as a character class. The RPG genre didn't start with assigned roles and such in mind, it started as an opportunity to allow players to pick iconic personae, gave them a conflict, and the rest is up to the group to work out.
Some questions -
o Why would a chaotic or neutrally-aligned character desire, swear to uphold, or even follow an oath? The only alignment I would consider being eligible for the same "deity-champion" is the LE character, and I would see that character being less about following the strictures of the law-binding master as much as "what's in it for me, and how do I break this infernal bond anyways?" <"You don't understand the power of the dark side ... I *must* obey my master!" - Darth Vader>
o What is really so wrong about having a good-only character? The game is full of demons, and evil, and dark-darkity-darkdark guys and gals, can't we have ONE token nice guy?
Sorry for reactivating an old(er) post but I just felt the need to post my wish for the new Paladin:
Since we all know that Paladins need an overhaul, and I am no big fan of all the new core(!) classes in the complete book series,
I really would like to see the Paladin and the Favored Soul merged together somehow.
Personally, i think having paladins be the 'token' nice guy is such a waste.
If i could step in, and turn the Paladin class into anything i wanted. I would completely reflavour them. My biggest influence? The Inquision and the witchhunters of the 40k universe and the warhammer world and perhapes a little of the guardians of the vail from M:tAw.
Powerful, dedicated men and woman, who do what they must for their take on the greater good. People who are willing and able to commit atrocities without flinching, because sometimes, just sometimes, destroying an entire city is the lesser sin than letting it continue to exist.
People who have the courage of their convictions. This is in fact, much closer to the historicial occurances of 'paladins' and monastic knights.
After all, the abrahamic god is considered 'good' yet, it has according to the bible, commited horrible atrocities. I, personally, would like to see D'n'D grow up on this subject to accept that good and evil are not absolute. That one man's evil is another mans good. It would also be cool to see gods be treated as the capricious, spiteful entities which they are in myth.
I know what you mean, man!
Actually I would like to see the "Paladin" be playable for any non-neutral alignment.
The character you were discribing would make a very good Lawful Evil "Tyrant"
I would suggest combine Favored Soul/Paladin, and allow all non-neutral alignments:
Lawful Good (Paladin),
Lawful Evil (Tyrant/Oppressor),
Chaotic Good (Liberator),
Chaotic Evil (Conquerer/Destroyer)
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I like most of the ideas above but think I can add something. What about a weapon that grows in power. Basically stealing the legacy weapon rules for the holy avenger. I have always though that his weapon the true symbol of his faith and don't think he should have to quest for it. As his faith grow so should his weapon's power.
The chart below is taken from the Weapons of Legacy book.
1st cold iron weapon
3rd +1
5th area dispel magic 1/day
8th +2 cold iron weapon
10th greater dispel magic 3/day
12th +3 cold iron weapon
14th +4 cold iron weapon
15th spell resistance
16th break enchantment
17th +4 holy cold iron weapon
18th heal self
19th area greater dispel weapon at will
20th +5 holy cold iron weapon
Just an idea.
@ the OP
Roland actually *had* a special mount. as far as I know, he's the whole *reason* for the special mount's *existence*
I agree we need another option, but I just wanted to nitpick.