Folks can play semantics with our sentiment all they like. The fact still remains, though, that if you can't talk about a subject without lazily resorting to personal attacks on other companies and other members of our boards, then this isn't the place for you. If you feel debate is stifled because you're no longer allowed to blatantly tell someone they're an idiot, then this isn't the board for you.
Good to see ...
Ya know, this whole thread seems so utterly childish to me. If you don't like hanging out at a particular forum you just stop going. But the melodramatics and posturing here is sickening. "I don't like it here anymore so I won't be coming back EVAR... and I'm taking my ball with me!"
...
... nevermind.
For anybody interested in how much moderation we're doing, the Paizo staff has collectively suppressed exactly zero posts today. (This is not a challenge! ;-)
Paizo's heart isn't really into being THE MAN, is it? I guess that's sensible, but I don't know where that leaves people who want to be taking it to you.
Good to see ... *snip*
To be fair, you've quoted them out of order.
Paizo's heart isn't really into being THE MAN, is it?
I have no time to be "The Man".
Good to see ... *snip*To be fair, you've quoted them out of order.
And that makes it seem more ..., what?
Edit: Original post not constructive.
It's called responsibility, people. Freedom of speech != freedom to speak without consequences. No, you are not the victim of a totalitarian thought-control plot. Geesh.
Man, you walk away from the computer for a few days because your boss tells you you really shouldn't be posting at work, and look what you miss.
I skimmed both this thread and the one related to it and I am STILL lost. LEAVING the messageboards over a confusing dust-up with what seems to be a drive by poster? Epic levels of disappointment due to people grumbling and rumbling over a game that isn't even out yet? Hey, I hate 4e, but I'm not losing any sleep over it, and I doubt that anything I have to say about it causes anyone else to either. The only people who make much sense to me are Jade and Aberzombie. Why don't we all just suck down some ice cold diet dr. pepper (have to go on a diet now that I'm married), complain about the version of D&D we dislike, pump the one we do like, roll some dice and do it all again same time next post? To quote my weekly game, "We ain't leavin' 'til (insert DM's name here)'s heavin'!"
And that makes it seem more ..., what?Good to see ... *snip*To be fair, you've quoted them out of order.
It makes his post seem like a reaction to mine rather the other way around.
For anybody interested in how much moderation we're doing, the Paizo staff has collectively suppressed exactly zero posts today. (This is not a challenge! ;-)
I couldn't even get on the site. Give me a chance.
It makes his post seem like a reaction to mine rather the other way around.And that makes it seem more ..., what?Good to see ... *snip*To be fair, you've quoted them out of order.
Ah, so your post was "calling him out". See it almost appeared to me like you were turning a blind eye to it. Almost like that Iraq guy that was saying, "There are no Americas in Baghdad." just as an American tank goes by in the distance. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I couldn't even get on the site. Give me a chance.
Sorry Kruelaid, they said they didn't suppress posts. Posters, on the other hand, they didn't mention:-)
The only people who make much sense to me are Jade and Aberzombie.
True, yet somehow terrifying.
...snipett of my stuff.
I hope you read the rest. It was much better than the first paragraph. ;)
Leaving now... best to leave it alone.
I couldn't even get on the site. Give me a chance.Sorry Kruelaid, they said they didn't suppress posts. Posters, on the other hand, they didn't mention:-)
>:(
Hei Guis Welcome to teh INterNet.
I for one welcome our moderating overloards, and wait for the day when the dissenters shall be crushed and the cunnin spies amongst us extinguished.
I'm of the opinion the only way your gonna loose the conversation here is if you stop talking, I mean if you can't trust paizo to do their best and mod constructively, welll you might want to get off the internet , causes theirs only more where that came from (WotC, Therpgsite, Arguably Enworld, rpg.net).
WELLLCOME TO INTERNET HOW MAY SERVE?
LMAO
I hope you read the rest. It was much better than the first paragraph. ;)...snipett of my stuff.
And yet isn't that the point. That people have been using snide little remarks and that is distracting from perhaps a meaningful discussion? So even if their post contains relevant material, their snide remarks are too disruptive.
And yet isn't that the point. That people have been using snide little remarks and that is distracting from perhaps a meaningful discussion? So even if their post contains relevant material, their snide remarks are too disruptive.I hope you read the rest. It was much better than the first paragraph. ;)...snipett of my stuff.
And perhaps you just saw an example of how the moderators aren't looking to stop you from having an opinion or posting some snark. Josh and Gary have repeatedly posted exactly what it is that raises the moderator red flag. Sure, they probably would prefer that people be a little less abrasive than my initial comments, but are they suppressing posts for it? No. You can see the evidence by the fact that my post is there even after Josh corrected the order in which you quoted us. What does this mean? That maybe, just maybe a good number of people are completely overreacting and these forums aren't going to be any different than they have always been. The Paizo staff just need do to a little cleaning up and make sure everyone is clear on what is and isn't acceptable. That's all.
Personally I think any rules I've seen for the boards, unless I'm missing something, have been common sense. I would also say that when you have members of the community (regardless of how long they've posted, regardless of whether or not they invoke that history of posts as some badge of honor) starting threads to comment on how things have devolved or how they feel the conduct of forum members is making the hosting company look bad, the hosting company would be remiss if they did not take some kind of action.
I also think that if you want to tell someone to take their opinions and put them where the sun doesn't shine (and I don't mean parts of Alaska for eight months out of the year), you should reserve those remarks for a face-to-face discussion. Hurling epithets on the internet is fun if you're thirteen or have the mind of a thirteen year old, but it's pretty cowardly and definitely lacks class. There's a difference between saying,"There will be moderation unless things get more civil" and demanding that everyone hold hands and sing campfire songs and banning anyone with a contrary opinion. If the latter were happening, I would understand writing an open letter and declaring why you want to leave but with things as they are now, I think you're really overreacting, Disenchanter.
Not that you brought it up, but the thought occurrred to me and I want to examine it for a second: if you wanted to start a website or write a pamphlet titled,"Mike Mearls is a (insert unflattering noun, let's go with "doodyhead")" or "James Keegan is a fascist for disagreeing with me" then it's your right as an individual to do so and I would never want to see that right taken away, even if I don't like what you're saying. Freedom of speech is a great thing. However, if you're in a hosted forum where you have been extended the privilege of speaking, without charge, I don't think it's out of the question if the owner asks that you play by their rules. That's what it means to be a respectful guest. Because regardless of any personal ownership of remarks made here, whether you post under an alias or your real name, the entity most likely to be held responsible for your words and your actions is Paizo and if they get a reputation as a site with a lousy, irrational community then fewer people will come to discuss, which means that their own most immediate and useful method of advertisement and sale (the website attached to these forums) will be compromised.
So, what I'm saying is that curbing what is considered deragatory dialogue for the sake of a more pleasant messageboard experience is acceptable to me. I think interpreting the First Amendment as "the right to call someone a "faggot" on a messageboard" (not that you are) cheapens a wonderful thing. People should exercise their rights, but they should also be held accountable for what they do with them and I think being banned or censored is the internet messageboard way of being held accountable.
Okay, I'm off my soapbox now.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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What James said.
I like a good conversation and value a good argument. I oppose those things that reduce the possibility of our having those arguments. Censorship should be feared when it reduces the possiblity of our engaging in provocative dialogue. It should be valued when it increases those opportunities.
Wow. A girl posts just on her own blog for a few days, and everything goes to heck.
I have been reading things online for years, and never posting. I have loved the Paizo boards since they opened, but I never posted. Then, one day, I decided these boards were civil and smart enough I could taker the risk. I could post one little thing.
That was more than 300 posts ago, and I still like the boards.
BUT
Some things were getting out of hand on the 4e boards. I stopped going to them after feeling like I was becoming part of the problem. I think gentle moderation is called for, and I understand Paizo only has limited time to make that effort. I'd much rather a post be deleted without notice (even my own) than a single product I can GAME with be delayed.
I, at least, will try to increase my support of Paizo, both with purchases and with posts, in an effort to show this is still a good, open, friendly board where worthwhile rpg disucssion can take place.
And I want to thank Lisa, Erik, Mike Vic and everyone else at Paizo for letting us have this conversation in their living room. I hope we can remeber we are guests here, and act appropriately.
I posted on the thread that originally snapped those camelly vertebrae saying that I wanted to see moderation engaged.
I don't regret posting that, and (although I'm sorry that modding had to occur) I'm glad that it's now happening. This isn't because I'm a big fan of moderation. I'd rather we didn't need it. But it was becoming a big problem for me that I couldn't post anything, or even read anything, about 4E without someone in the thread being called a shill, or a troll, or an idiot.
Some people have now said they're leaving the boards, and Paizo, because they can no longer express their dissatisfaction in any manner that they please.
Fair enough. Everyone has to draw their own line.
I'm hopeful that in the next week or so all this kerfuffle will settle down, we won't need moderation any more, and everyone can get back to having fun.
I don't think I'm being unduly optimistic.
Just two points,
First this board has always been moderated, the only thing that has changed is that the line has shifted slightly. For example I can't say F~&+, shit, drongo* or cock ** the board just wont let me. Plus I bet that a post with a link to my personal collection of naked photos of Piazo staff members*** would not last real long ..even a year ago. What is regarded as civil behaviour is one of those community consensis thingimebob dokickys. Values are not universal and this board holds an international community.
Which leds me to the second point, who decides where the line is? Why that would be Piazo the mob that own the place. 'Cause even those among us who hold the freedom of speach as sacred must recognise that property rights**** are just as important. You can say what ever you like but if I find it offensive then you aint gonna say it in my lounge room. Make no mistake this is Piazo's turf, they are welcoming and let all kinds of vagabonds and swags sleep on the floor, but this is still their turf. I bet Piazo even have a chunk of paper on file that says they own this place. If people want to say things that the Piazo crew find offensive then you will have to find a public place to do so. Now that maybe difficult with the increasing privatisation of public space*****.
The Troll
* Cool I can say drongo
** This makes it difficult to hold a conversation about male chickens.
*** I'm still trying to get Jason to sign his.
**** The thing about rights is that they valid only until they bump into someone elses rights. A distance of not much further than my nose I've found.
***** OK I'll stop there that's another rant.
this board is so emo...Did you just insult me??!?!? ;-)
Maybe Paizo should do what we did on Nutkinland way back in the day and set up an Angry Chair. You get access when you want (if you want) and inside that forum people say what they wish. Then you put that forum away in the corner and people can go vent and it doesn't hurt discussion in any way.
Its called the Rant thread - it's like 800 pages long.
Its called the Rant thread - it's like 800 pages long.this board is so emo...Did you just insult me??!?!? ;-)
Maybe Paizo should do what we did on Nutkinland way back in the day and set up an Angry Chair. You get access when you want (if you want) and inside that forum people say what they wish. Then you put that forum away in the corner and people can go vent and it doesn't hurt discussion in any way.
Is it? Haha, sorry. I must have just been scrolling past it. Thanks. :)
...And the moral of the story is, the camps will NEVER agree.I'd argue that they CAN'T agree until they get their hands on physical product.
Until then, the "leaks" will only serve to support the bias of whomever reads them - pro or against - and they'll bring that bias to any conversation, since they're only going on emotion and partial information.
Even the physical product will probably just serve to support the bias of whoever reads it. The fence sitters will have something that allows them to make up their mind however.
Even the physical product will probably just serve to support the bias of whoever reads it. The fence sitters will have something that allows them to make up their mind however....And the moral of the story is, the camps will NEVER agree.I'd argue that they CAN'T agree until they get their hands on physical product.
Until then, the "leaks" will only serve to support the bias of whomever reads them - pro or against - and they'll bring that bias to any conversation, since they're only going on emotion and partial information.
And there's nothing wrong with taking your time and seeing how it goes. If I had a 3.5 game running, lots of material, an entire Pathfinder series to run, and no money hidden away under the bed, I'd wait a bit myself. Let the dust settle, let my group finish what they're doing and get an HONEST look at the game without hype from either side. And then make the choice. I think that's a very smart tactic to take.
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Man, you walk away from the computer for a few days because your boss tells you you really shouldn't be posting at work, and look what you miss.
I skimmed both this thread and the one related to it and I am STILL lost. LEAVING the messageboards over a confusing dust-up with what seems to be a drive by poster? Epic levels of disappointment due to people grumbling and rumbling over a game that isn't even out yet? Hey, I hate 4e, but I'm not losing any sleep over it, and I doubt that anything I have to say about it causes anyone else to either. The only people who make much sense to me are Jade and Aberzombie. Why don't we all just suck down some ice cold diet dr. pepper (have to go on a diet now that I'm married), complain about the version of D&D we dislike, pump the one we do like, roll some dice and do it all again same time next post? To quote my weekly game, "We ain't leavin' 'til (insert DM's name here)'s heavin'!"
I was going to post something similar to this...so...umm...ditto what you said.
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I'm hopeful that in the next week or so all this kerfuffle will settle down, we won't need moderation any more, and everyone can get back to having fun.I enjoy having boards where people use the word "kerfuffle."
How about "hullabaloo"?
I have mixed feelings about the whole censorship thing. The 4e threads are sort of a category in themselves, but a lot of people feel the need to vent. Some of it ain't pretty, and most of it is just empty rhetoric as we still don't actually know what those rules actually say. But nevertheless a lot of people feel the need to express themselves. Where people overstep the line (like Razz with his Nazi fetish - at least, I think it is Razz) they are generally picked up by other members of the boards and told to moderate. Personally, rather than censor them, I would prefer if Paizo added a sticky or something saying that the views expressed are those of the individuals and not those of the company, that people should play nice, warn others that it can heated in there, and then leave them to it. Anyone interested can take part, or read in horror, but they have been warned. They can then ignore it too, like a lot of people.
I am also a bit disturbed that the censorship thing seems to have been driven by the marketing guy, Joshua. Now, I am sure Joshua is a fine upstanding man. But if the reasons for clamping down on debate - even futile, bad-tempered debate - are actually more driven by considerations of sales and branding and not simply a desire to have everyone hold hands and sing on a hillside while dressed in white smocks, then that means that the Paizo website probably has changed in a subtle but fundamental way. I fully appreciate that Paizo is a business and wants to maximise profits, and having a corner of the boards, one of the main ways that the company interfaces with its customers, dominated by argumentative fanatics could put that in jeopardy. But, if my intuition is true, it does move things on from where you could post what you wanted, ruled only by considerations of what you considered to be in appropriate taste. Again, I'm not picking on Joshua, as this a development in the company as a whole as it becomes less of a "hippy start-up" and becomes more professional in the way it deals with its customers and brand.
Or I could be talking crap.
Because regardless of any personal ownership of remarks made here, whether you post under an alias or your real name, the entity most likely to be held responsible for your words and your actions is Paizo and if they get a reputation as a site with a lousy, irrational community then fewer people will come to discuss, which means that their own most immediate and useful method of advertisement and sale (the website attached to these forums) will be compromised.
I would chime in here as well. One down side of the Internet, and one reason I have left other boards is that people use their anonymity to post hurtful remarks almost without a thought. Now, I am not saying anyone here is doing this, but for those of us who take flaming personally (which I have to say I do) it can be distressing when you attempt to further a debate on an issue and your thoughts are derided in a juvenile manner. I have seen people on other boards lambasted for thoughts, opinions, spelling, grammar, etc. etc. all because they disagreed with the other posters.
One reason I have been frequenting these boards since I came to know them after the Dragon/Dungeon cancellation is that for the most part the posters seem rational, smart people who enjoy a game I do. This follows no matter which edition you are swearing allegiance to. I also enjoy the fact that almost everyone involved in Paizo takes the time to post themselves, something you rarely see on other boards. If they feel they need to moderate, then that is their right. Those who post First Amendment fears need to recognize that we are guests. Guests have certain obligations to their host. You wouldn't go to a friends' dinner and shout obscenities at another guest when they disagreed with you about a point of political policy would you? If you would, I'm certain your host would moderate your @ss right out the door. As far as I can see you can discuss calmly everything you want here still, you are just banned from making insulting remarks. I find the old posting rule: 'If you are uncomfortable saying it to someone's face you shouldn't write it' is a good rule of thumb.
Now I also understand the slippery slope argument, but I have faith in a group like Paizo to be able to restrain themselves from blanket censorship. If they slide too far down the slope they will lose posters, and this is obviously not their intention. I'm sure that the community can learn to self-moderate itself without a resort to heavy-handed tactics. I would hope that we can all come together as D&D gamers of any edition and try to have a good time here.
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I'd like to add that we should all be appreciative of Paizo's patience to date, I'm not an American so I don't understand the way people equate Freedom of Speech with intolerance of the opinions of others, or deliberate rudeness or bad manners.
Oops losing the point already.
All I'm was trying to say is thanks Paizo for producing a great product and also maintaining what is generally a friendly and welcoming online community, I've only been a customer for a short while but regardless of which way the coin falls with D&D hope to be with you for many years to come.
Later Days ;-)
James Keegan, that is an excellent post!
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...I'm not an American so I don't understand the way people equate Freedom of Speech with intolerance of the opinions of others, or deliberate rudeness or bad manners.
Thanks for your views Horus. I love leaving the US and all of its internal angst and customs and visiting people in other parts of the world. It makes me both proud to be an American and gives me a much needed view on the US from other people's perspective. International travel with a stay in a non-western country should be mandatory for all Americans, a sort of pilgrimage everyone here is required to make before gaining the right to vote. It would change opinions here in a fundamental way. Anyway...
If it helps understand the intolerance/rudeness issue, there has been a growing movement in the US over the last 30-40 years for every individual or sub group to "exercise their rights", regardless of two critically important issues: the actual meaning (or even existence) of the Right in a legal sense and any sort of responsibility that goes along with the right. What you see in these forums are aspects of these failures. The mistaken belief that someone has the right to say what they want regardless of it's implications to others (a failure of responsibility to exercise rights properly) and an over sensitivity to any slight, real or imagined (a failure to understand that no Right exists that guarantees you are going to be happy all the time with the outcome of an issue). It can be argued that rights are at the very center of a deeply divisive ongoing political debate in this country; many of the topics that are reported on the news can be distilled down to this basic issue of a failure of understanding one's rights and taking responsibility for one's rights.
That is my view at any rate. I hope it helps shed at least a little light on this topic.
... there has been a growing movement in the US over the last 30-40 years for every individual or sub group to "exercise their rights", regardless of two critically important issues: the actual meaning (or even existence) of the Right in a legal sense and any sort of responsibility that goes along with the right. What you see in these forums are aspects of these failures. The mistaken belief that someone has the right to say what they want regardless of it's implications to others (a failure of responsibility to exercise rights properly) and an over sensitivity to any slight, real or imagined (a failure to understand that no Right exists that guarantees you are going to be happy all the time with the outcome of an issue). It can be argued that rights are at the very center of a deeply divisive ongoing political debate in this country; many of the topics that are reported on the news can be distilled down to this basic issue of a failure of understanding one's rights and taking responsibility for one's rights.
Q. F. T.
Astoundingly well-put. I've been a lurker on these boards for a while now, and you're the first to inspire me to post. I think I've disagreed with many of your other posts, but on this issue I absolutely agree. In fact, we wouldn't even be having the current problems on this board if everyone understood this simple concept.
Well said, sir, and thank you for saying it.
Ya know, this whole thread seems so utterly childish to me. If you don't like hanging out at a particular forum you just stop going.
Sure, we could just shut up and go instead of letting people know our opinion. I wasn't aware that our opinions were worth less than yours.
If that's Paizo's will just say the word.
Of course, I'll be taking my business with with me. I just thought that Paizo would rather have my opinion, and my money, than have me shut up and go.
Haven't Josh and Gary said repeatedly that they will be mellowing out the moderation over the next little while?
The speed with which posters are ready to turn their back on Paizo because of this is really eye opening.
<other good stuff>
Please give us some credit.
I think we've earned it.
--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC
The part that stands out to me is where you state that it is eye opening how quickly posters will turn their backs on Paizo.
Now, I am one who is not going the 4E route. I do not post very often at all, but I regularly visit the boards and read a lot of threads. It worries me that this one small statement is, in actuality, a great big concern for you at Paizo. This one point is a huge deal for you as a business. If people are willing to turn their backs on you for something like this without earlier provocation, how many more will go once the decision is made on which system to use?
All you can go on right now is a small sampling of people who have responded to your inquiries, and whatever other market research you are currently doing. I worry that the response to this will necessitate a fundamental change in how you are considering changing your business model. I would love for Paizo to stick with the current rules system for selfish reasons. I'm not changing, so I don't want you to change either.
I guess my point, if I really have one other than rambling, is that I hope the response to this by some posters does not have a huge impact on how you view your audience/customer base. I know that you will make whatever decision you believe to be right for the company, and I hope that my selfish wishes will come true, but I also worry that responses like these from your customers will color your decision somehow and make you lean towards not taking a chance and breaking away from the pack.
I can't believe people are still yapping about this. Yeesh. Much ado about nothing.
I just thought that Paizo would rather have my opinion, and my money, than have me shut up and go.
We certainly want your opinion. We value the opinion of all of our customers and our history on these boards and our history with our products SHOWS that we value opinions.
What we don't value are people personally attacking one another. Its not the spirit of these boards and never has been. We'd like the 4E forum to be just as nice a place to hangout and talk as the d20/OGL forums or the Pathfinder forums.
I am also a bit disturbed that the censorship thing seems to have been driven by the marketing guy, Joshua.
What bothers me about this statement, Aubrey, is it doesn't allow me to just be some guy who works for Paizo who didn't like that the 4E sub forum was turning into a place that very few people wanted to visit. (Which is the truth.) You may see this as censorship, I see it as us asking people to play nice.
These are the days when I hate having "marketing" in my title. I'd like to be known, instead, as the the Director of Telling our Customers About our Cool Products.
I can't believe people are still yapping about this. Yeesh. Much ado about nothing.
It's dead, Jim........
** spoiler omitted **
OH NO! Joshua is a WotC mole! This is the proof! He used the word COOL!
[/attempt to stoke the paranoia further]
just kidding, of course. But the discussion on the 4e board moderation sometimes verges on the absurd, so why not go over the top ;-)
Stefan
Smurf.