First, let me state a few things that I will never be able to stress enough through this media.
1)I do not blame Paizo for their actions, nor do I fault them for it.
2)I do not encourage, nor advocate personal attacks.
3)I can never, never, never express just how angry I am now. Written words will never convey it.
I hate what has become of the Paizo forums. I really do. And the moderation hasn't even really gotten heavy handed yet. But the snowball has been thrown onto the mountain side, and it is only a matter of time before the avalanche falls.
I have seen it before, and I see it starting once again. Once forum “rules” are posted, everyone thinks they have the right to interpret them as they see fit. And worse yet, to try and enforce them every chance they get.
And if that wasn't enough, everyone will start posting while walking around eggshells and wrapping their figurative hands up with twelve pounds of gauze on each hand to keep from hurting each other. Gone are the days of truly honest discussion.
It is a sad state of affairs. And worse than that, those posters that “won” this victory will take it upon themselves to enforce their vision of how these forums should be conducted.
I hate the feeling that I have a knife to my throat waiting to cut the life out of me if I should post something, somewhere, that someone might find offensive. Before someone thinks I am being overly dramatic, my posts are my words. My words are me. Cutting my words out, is cutting me.
I despise the feeling that I am being “punished” by other peoples actions. You want to punish me for something I have done? Fine. Be my guest. No matter how much I may not like it, I can't fault you for that. I really, really, really HHHAAAAAATTTTTTTTEEEEEE being punished for other people. You have no idea how much I despise that.
The reason why? I would never be so damn arrogant to force others to live to my ideals. And I really hate (yes, I have grown tired of trying to stress that word) others forcing me to live to their ideals. EVEN IF I AGREE WITH THEM!
Putting a pretty face upon the ugliness of humanity doesn't make the ugliness go away. All it does it force that ugliness to fester, and breed, and grow stronger.
I personally don't get along well with Sebastian, or Crosswiredmind. But making me pretend that I love them is a disservice to me.
Right now, I have lost all interest in Paizo as a company. It isn't that I am considering withdrawing my subscriptions to spite them. It isn't that I am trying to get revenge. It is that I have lost all love for the company.
And if that wasn't enough... It is because of other peoples actions. Not even Paizos. So that increases my hatred in general due to making me a hypocrite against my will.
In an effort to keep from burning this place down with my flames, I am going to stop visiting for a while (to which there is much rejoicing). If I never post again, it will be because I can't stomach the hatred and loathing I feel every time I go to click on the Paizo link.
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I hear ya. I did not want it to come to this either. You have actually been quite civil. You may be blunt, but I never felt insulted when we disagreed.
But the rules are here now and people will walk on eggshells for a little while. The rules are actually not that restrictive but I understand why the would rub you the wrong way.
I hope you stay for a while longer to see how it all plays out.
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You will be missed, Don and I understand exactly what you are saying. The shame of it is that most of the people screaming for moderation are new arrivals to the site within the past several months.
It's called JOINING a community, not ALTERING it to fill your personal desires or the same roll as every other messageboard.
When Paizo's Messageboards becomes just like WOTC's Messageboards or ENWorld's messageboards, I will be posting a similar post for my final post. I do see it coming quickly though now that the guantlet...or rules have been thrown down.
I hope Paizo fixes this. I would hate to see this community become another vanilla messageboard where opinions can't be shared unless they are all P.C. and conformist.
I think Paizo made a mistake in allowing this to happen. (Is this a comment that will someday be deleted? Editted? Slap-on-the-wrist?)
I'll miss ya too.
This is the sort of thing that made me get frustrated on the EN World board yesterday.
Just take a few days off and then come back. You might find a nice weekend does wonders for the spirit, and who knows..? Maybe the GSL will be out by then. I generally believe WOTC that it won't be much longer. I don't see how it could be otherwise, honestly.
It will be over soon, and things will calm down again.
I'll miss you as well Disenchanter. On most of the 4th ed. threads I would skim over others to read your posts. I understand if you hand to leave, but try taking a week off or stay away from the 4th ed. or off topic areas. Hopefully it'll be over soon.
Fizz
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You've always been polite to me!
Welcome back, in advance, for when you're feeling better.
I too, feel bad about witnessing that train-wreck of a thread, despite not being involved, since it seemed obvious to me that the original poster (whose name escapes me, since he only ever posted the once) was nothing but a troll.
I was tempted to call him on his story, which was full of holes, but saw that the moderation had started, and thought better of it. No good could have come of it, and may even have exacerbated the situation.
Nonetheless, this board is the best there is, even with slight moderation, which, as far as I am aware, is only occurring on that one section. No reason not to visit any of the other great threads and keep in touch with the helpful, friendly, and insightful posters there.
EDIT: Beaten to the post by five of those same helpful, friendly, insightful posters.
Some of whom are on opposite sides of said debate to Disenchanter, yet are obviously sad to see him upset.
Thus proving that 'Barely Coherent' (I did remember his name after all!) doesn't have a leg to stand on, after all.
Disenchanted?
I'm gonna say i am also disappointed . I saw the thread but saw no point in posting to it. I am anti-4e myself and may have some posts vanish I don't know really.I didn't want to see it come to moderation but it has I think the hurt feeling may lessen in time but the community has been split and I think that split is there to stay even after the release of 4e.It would be sad to loose a regular poster over this I hope you find your way back here.
Just remember, even if an insult isn't posted doesn't mean it wasn't made. And, even if you didn't read it doesn't mean it wasn't directed towards you.
Since this seems like the place to post it....
I suppose I'm writing this to Joshua Frost, Gary Teter, and Paizo in general.
I am not a fan of 4E, so that might have some bearing on my opinions (and they are of course only opinions). I strongly dislike the abandonment of thirty years of game history, the willy-nilly destruction of fluff/flavour that has defined what I knew as the D&D world since I started playing in 1982. I dislike the healing surges, the removal of save of die effects, the tripling of hp at first level, etc. In fact, with very few exceptions (consolidation of some skills, and a few other bits here and there) I can't say I have found much of anything to appreciate about this latest "edition" of Dungeons and Dragons.
On the other hand, I loathe what has happened to the 4E portion of the boards; the vitriol, name-calling, threats of spitting on people fer crying out loud, a suggestion (thinly veiled as second-hand, something-someone-else-said-but-I'm-throwing-it-out-for-consumption) that 4E contributed to E.G.G.'s recent death, the list goes on and on. I despise the personal insults, and the bile being launched against WOTC employees, for no other reason than they are altering a game to suit their needs. For f***s-sake, people, can we not act like reasonable humans, and not a bunch of wankers?!
But. BUT!
After my son was born in August, I had almost a month straight of no computer access due to the rigors of parenthood. When I returned to my two favourite message boards, EN World and Paizo, the former had changed dramatically, horribly. I no longer felt like a member of the community...people were being banned and strongly encourage to not post anything critical (even in a constructive way) of 4E, and in general it seemed like an entirely different, and much, much less pleasant place to be.
Somehow, the overall atmosphere and timbre of the place had altered, and it really did not feel welcoming at all. And while it has gotten slightly better over the last few weeks, I really don't go there much anymore....I don't feel connected to it anymore than I would checking into CBC.com when I check in there for my news. There's no feeling of being a part of a group of like-minded hobbiests, who may differ on points of rules, and so on, could get along relatively well beyond that.
And I see the same thing happening here, right now.
It sounds stupid, I know....I mean, how can simply asking people to not be rude, insulting knobs possibly be a bad thing?!
And yet, I have noticed a change in tone, and not for the better, a sense that something that was such a wonderful part of being on Paizo's messageboards (and they absolutely are your messageboards to police/moderate as you see fit), the sense that only the most extreme stupidity would result in some hand-slapping, that we could all feel a little freer, a little more open than we could on other sites. Am I dismayed that some people took that too far? Yes, absolutely, but do I think that this is the way to respond? Nope.
And I don't have a solution.
I just know that this is somehow, inexplicably, on some ineffable gut-level, not feeling like a place I want to check into today, not feeling like a place I want to do business with. And while some may chime in and say that people who want to be rude can let the door hit them on the way out, that they're not the sorts of customers Paizo needs. But I've never been rude, and I don't condone the behaviour that some (very FEW) posters have engaged in (quite the contrary, as I previously indicated). I'm just a polite, ex-pat Canuck, who happened to fall in love with Paizo's products, and the atmosphere of their boards, and who now finds that atmosphere curdled and unpleasant.
I can't tell you why, but despite the best intentions behind this move, I must state my unequivocable reservations about it.
I know that doesn't make your jobs any easier, but the powers-that-be need to know this sort of thing, because it is what keeps (or alternately "fires") customers.
Best of luck in the coming weeks, ladies and gents, I get the feeling that you'll need it regardless of which edition you decide to go with.
Cheers (and with greatest sincerity),
Colin Lloyd
edited because I had originally said only "gents" and somehow forgot the incredible Lisa Stevens, as well as Cory in Customer Service who likewise rocks hardcore ;-)
CEO
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I am hoping that we can get back to the way our messageboards were before the whole 4e schism. Perhaps I am being naive, but I am hoping that moderation will become something that happens only rarely. Just to let people know, we HAVE moderated in the past. It just wasn't very often and probably wasn't noticed that much. The 4e threads have gotten toxic. We needed to fix this. If we get back to good old fashioned discussion, then you won't notice that there is moderation, because we won't need it.
Feel free to like or not like a game, a decision by a company, whatever. But do it without attacking people or making disparaging comments. You can talk about why you think that the powers of 4e make it feel like WOW to you. You can talk about how 3.5 bogs down at high levels. Just don't say it in a way that feels like you are attacking somebody or some company, or making it sound like they are retarded or eat feces. You can get a point across without being mean about it. Really, you guys are THAT good. I believe in your writing prowess.
You guys know that I have always been an advocate for free speech. I really believe in letting people say their piece. I just want it done in a respectful and civil way. I fought against using moderation on the 4e boards, and got us to compromise by putting my sticky asking people to be civil. But that obviously didn't work. So now we are trying this. I don't like it much, but I like the way our 4e boards have been going even less. So we are going to try this as the lesser of two evils and hopefully get back to the cool messageboards that we were. Take a look at the Rise of the Runelords boards to see how cool this place can be. They have been invaluable for me as I prepare to run that as my next campaign. Goblin song mp3...priceless!
-Lisa
*sighs*
bye man, hope you make it back soon
It's too bad that folks are leaving these forums for whatever their reasons are. I would encourage those who are considering leaving and read this post to reconsider. I know that I speak for a segment of long time readers and posters to these forums (like myself) when i say that I'll be glad when everyone gets a chance to finally see all of the core material for 4e and gets a chance to playtest the game. I believe that, while it is not too soon to discuss everything that has been discussed in these forums regarding the upcoming edition, it is very much premature to invest personal feelings in 4e and/or divest them from whatever game one enjoys currently playing.
I have specifically stayed away from the 4e forums - i believe this is my third or fourth post in these forums since they started. Why? Because I said my peace the first post regarding the edition, made my viewpoint clear and let it be done. I'd suggest that one can categorize different approaches to the release into several categories and points of perspective...this has been done many times by different folks who are aware of the different viewpoints one could take on the upcoming edition. Paizo has taken polls on it.
Within most other Paizo community forums here, the topics discussed focus on gaming advice, alternate rules systems, game theory, off topic stuff, etc. With 4e most of us are in a camp. You may never buy a 4e product, you may buy everything, you may be waiting and gathering information. Perhaps one could argue that heated debates on pro vs. con will help sway anyone who is still undecided. Other than that, all the chatter is either a bunch of "togethers" bobbing their heads in agreement or "dissidents" throwing stones across a fence.
What's the point?
What it has done is made me and others who were used to engaging in thoughtful discourse on any given topic not contribute to overall discussion. That is a community loss. It is also, in my opinion, a silent acceptance that the behavior that has gone on for months in the 4e forums is acceptable. It is not. Those of us who feel similarly should lead by example and not go away like i have, until now. When the CEO of the company that is hosting the forums has to stickey a thread regarding the behaivor of the guests to these boards everyone needs to stop and listen...and think. It is an embarassment for me to even see that the postmaster general has to moderate...why? Because those of us who have been here for a long time recognize that the extent of the problems in 4e threads is a first on these boards.
I would urge all of us to consider why and how these boards are being used especially with a topic that is obviously very sensitive to our entire community right now.
As ever,
ACE
And...in the 10 minutes it took me to write this, Lisa said many of the same things. <shrug> In short: "What she said."
As ever,
ACE
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I know that Lisa Stevens and the folks at Paizo have started moderating these boards with good intentions. However, the one-sided, overly harsh moderation seen here recently can be seen as nothing more than unneccesary censorship. I no longer feel welcome to express my views here, so there is no point in me frequenting these boards any longer. The whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth, and I no longer want to support these boards or Paizo as a company. Farewell.
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I will continue to buy Paizo stuff (at least while they are 3.5 or Edition-neutral), but it feels like dark times are ahead here. I'm sure this is how it started on that other board (that I won't name for fear of having my post deleted). Things do feel different here now. It is only light-handed at this point, but that is how it always starts. People ARE walking on eggshells now, and that is the antithesis of how one should feel when posting on a board. We feel we have to keep our emotions in check now and that is, put mildly, a bummer. While it is wrong to insult game developers, shouldn't we be able to question their ability or judgment?
Question. Was it really this bad during the change from 2nd to 3rd? From 3rd to 3.5? I know message boards were still in infancy or nonexistant at that time, but there was a backlash. Was it this strong? Could the vitriol and toxicity be signs of just how angry people are at this edition change? Is this proof of how bad an idea it all really is? I don't know for certain, but the one place that a lot of us could come to and vent has just been shut down. Tore down Paradise and put up a parking lot. The real bummer is there are already plenty of places the pro-4th Ed crowd could go and gush. Now they have another, while the grognards have to button their lips. Yeah, I'm whining, I know. Sorry, but I can't scream anymore; it might get me deleted.
I appreciate Lisa coming here and trying to put a positive spin on things; but it doesn't change the sadness I feel.
Looks like we need some other option. Is there another board or place we can go where moderation won't interfere with opinion? There's that Circvs Maximvs place, but it seems awful pro-4th there as well. Anyone got an other ideas? If I knew how to do it and had the webspace; I'd set up a haven board for the unhappy grognards to vent in. Maybe the 3.75 Point of Light site? I think it's important that we get someplace set up.
Wow, it's really a sad day. I imagine we are going to lose a lot of good posters over this.
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Senior Software Developer
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Sorry, but I can't scream anymore; it might get me deleted.
Sure you can, and no it won't get you deleted. Going forward, we're only moderating for insults and over-the-top crap. Yesterday we cleaned up a bunch of stuff that we'd probably let stand a few weeks from now if all goes well.
I really, really don't want to be moderating anything. I think a huge part of why our messageboards are awesome (except the 4th ed. forum) is that we don't do a bunch of moderation. We depend on the community to enforce its own standards of behavior, and except here, that has worked well.
When I'm moderating, I'm not coding new features for the site, and that makes me a sad postmonster.
Thank you Lisa. I appreciate hearing your concerns, and I also hope that things will eventually return to normal.
I'm confused.
We've asked folks to be civil in 1/38th of our messageboard and people are fleeing for the hills? After we asked nicely for folks to be civil, they continued to be less-than-civil, so we cleaned up 1/38th of our messageboard and asked everyone to please rethink their approach to lacking civility in that 1/38th of our messageboard. Yes, that means light moderation. On 1/38th of our messageboard.
I'm sorry to see everyone go. I'm also sticking by the fact that if you can't talk about 4E without personally attacking other members or insulting other companies in the industry, then this probably isn't your board.
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It's too bad that folks are leaving these forums for whatever their reasons are. I would encourage those who are considering leaving and read this post to reconsider. I know that I speak for a segment of long time readers and posters to these forums (like myself) when i say that I'll be glad when everyone gets a chance to finally see all of the core material for 4e and gets a chance to playtest the game. I believe that, while it is not too soon to discuss everything that has been discussed in these forums regarding the upcoming edition, it is very much premature to invest personal feelings in 4e and/or divest them from whatever game one enjoys currently playing.
I have specifically stayed away from the 4e forums - i believe this is my third or fourth post in these forums since they started. Why? Because I said my peace the first post regarding the edition, made my viewpoint clear and let it be done. I'd suggest that one can categorize different approaches to the release into several categories and points of perspective...this has been done many times by different folks who are aware of the different viewpoints one could take on the upcoming edition. Paizo has taken polls on it.
Within most other Paizo community forums here, the topics discussed focus on gaming advice, alternate rules systems, game theory, off topic stuff, etc. With 4e most of us are in a camp. You may never buy a 4e product, you may buy everything, you may be waiting and gathering information. Perhaps one could argue that heated debates on pro vs. con will help sway anyone who is still undecided. Other than that, all the chatter is either a bunch of "togethers" bobbing their heads in agreement or "dissidents" throwing stones across a fence.
What's the point?
What it has done is made me and others who were used to engaging in thoughtful discourse on any given topic not contribute to overall discussion. That is a community loss. It is also, in my opinion, a silent acceptance that the behavior that has gone on for months in the 4e forums is acceptable. It is not. Those of us who feel similarly should lead by example and not go away like i have, until now. When the CEO of the company that is hosting the forums has to stickey a thread regarding the behaivor of the guests to these boards everyone needs to stop and listen...and think. It is an embarassment for me to even see that the postmaster general has to moderate...why? Because those of us who have been here for a long time recognize that the extent of the problems in 4e threads is a first on these boards.
I would urge all of us to consider why and how these boards are being used especially with a topic that is obviously very sensitive to our entire community right now.
As ever,
ACE
Well said Ace. As always, your posts are well thought-out, well written, and courteous. You never come across as condescending. That's why I always take the time to see what you have to say.
For those leaving, consider: I am one of those who (rightly or not) had posts deleted. I am staying, however, because I consider this to be an important element in my life. I enjoy this place and most of the people, even if I don't agree with them all the time. I would urge you to reconsider leaving. Instead, stay and help us make this place even better.
Dis, you'll be missed. Whenever I saw that black faced flaming head, I knew I was gonna read somethin good. And while you often played hardball, I don't remember you ever throwing any pointed insults.
Cory, Kevin, I'm not as familiar with your posts, but still sorry to see you go. If you truly must find a new home, I wouldn't advise Dragonsfoot. (A similar post over on ENWorld had an anti-4E'er heading over to Dragonsfoot to try and get a 3E section going ... he said it was like jumping into a volcano!)
Cheers! :)
I'm also sticking by the fact that if you can't talk about 4E without personally attacking other members or insulting other companies in the industry, then this probably isn't your board.
Respectfully, how does one insult a company? Is all criticism of WOTC now prohibited?
Is all criticism of WOTC now prohibited?
Come on, seriously?
You can critique all you want. We've stated this at least six times on these boards since yesterday. Matter of fact, you're critiquing Paizo right now and I'm not moderating you.
You can say, "I think Company A has done a terrible job with their PR re: the new edition."
You can say, "I think Company B shouldn't moderate at all."
You can say, "I disagree with Company C's decision to make their own game."
Those are criticisms and you don't see those listed in the rules for this particular forum.
You can not say, "I think the Company A designers are [expletive]."
You can not say, "Company B's a bunch of [expletives] for moderating their boards."
You can not say, "The Company C guys are idiots for not supporting 4E."
I can't understand how the rules of this sub-forum are at all confusing.
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There is something that I am not sure some of you understand regarding moderation and internet community. When we see posts like the one from Disenchanter here, we are not seeing a "my way or the highway" approach nor are we seeing a sour grapes response to suddenly having rules applied. I have seen sentiments like "well if you don't feel you can abide by the (completely fair and understandable) rules, good riddance" and the like in another thread here, and those that have this feeling are missing the point.
Disenchanter and others have left because seemingly innocuous changes regarding moderation can quickly spiral out of control and the community becomes one of generic discussion lacking in passion and conviction. Yes, at times passion and conviction can cause things to be said that are otherwise impolite or antagonistic, but there is at least a soul and vibrancy to the conversation. I know that you, good reader, are possibly saying to yourself "What does comparison to nazi's, feces or the like have to do with vibrant conversation?" And you would, at least in part, be right. But then again there is no denying that the point expressed is vibrant or passionate. If these ideas are moderated without significant care into non-existence, then slowly (or quickly depending on the nature of the moderators and the rabidity of the self-anointed community watchdogs - and these are already here snarling at some of us at the ends of their chains), the soul of the discussion fades away. Those of us that have seen it would rather quit early than watch something they care passionately about fade into the vanilla churn that makes up many corporate-sponsored forums.
Yesterday I canceled $160 or so dollars of preorders with Paizo as a sign to them that while almost-customers can come here and complain about the boards, real paying customers are here as well and matter. I posted and then deleted a cancellation of all my orders and subscriptions this morning (and I have been a loyal customer since 2004) when I heard that posts were being deleted without notice. I deleted my cancellation request before Cosmo could process it at the advice of a few posters here that asked long time Paizo members to take a wait and see approach. With Gary Teter's assurance that posts will not be deleted without cause given (and Paizo has done nothing to cause me to ever doubt their word), I remain a Paizo customer and will remain present on these forums.
Should things change and the moderators or worse yet the self-promoted thought police begin to drain the life from this community, then I will go as well and take my business elsewhere; I cannot see supporting something that has no meaning to me.
I personally think you're overreacting here, Disenchanter. It would be very sad to see you go. I can't help but think that you're leaving not because of what might get moderated as on the PRINCIPLE of it all. Which I think it kind of like shooting yourself in the foot since I know you love Paizo. I hope you take a break and come back recharged. I think Watcher has the right of it.
As to the rest of the thread, it seems like people are under the impression that only the anti-4E crowd is being moderated. I don't see that at all. Personally, I'm sick of pro-4E this and anti-4E that, or even "fence-sitters". Stupid labels that we don't need.
If someone doesn't like something about the new edition, or even that the new edition exists, or that it chose now, the height of the 3.5 Golden Age, to come along and wreck things, or that it was done only because WotC ran out of ideas for 3.5 books and had to keep their release schedule going, none of those things mean that you will be moderated or have your posts deleted.
Insulting each other, or needlessly insulting other messageboards or companies in the industry (don't you think that Paizo's staff might know some of those guys and consider them friends that we're talking badly about?) are the things that will get a post moderated. Is insulting someone really the only way we can get our point across?
And they've even said that it will lessen up in time! This is only for one sub forum and I imagine that they're hoping to just get us in the practice of being civil to each other.
I don't know. I respect peoples' right to get upset if they want, but I can't help but think that they're not giving Paizo, the company they've come to trust, enough credit. If asking for people to be civil can destroy someone's impression of Paizo and the people who work there, then I don't know what to say.
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We've asked folks to be civil in 1/38th of our messageboard and people are fleeing for the hills? After we asked nicely for folks to be civil, they continued to be less-than-civil, so we cleaned up 1/38th of our messageboard and asked everyone to please rethink their approach to lacking civility in that 1/38th of our messageboard. Yes, that means light moderation. On 1/38th of our messageboard.
I agree, the 4E message board was a tumor to the boards in general, and needed cleansing, and personally, I would prefer that it went away completely. Yes there were certain points that I corrected when I saw things misrepresented (even once that I misquoted something from D&DXP last year), but at this point I feel I could look at the avatars of those posting and the title of the thread there and know the gist of what is being said.
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I personally think you're overreacting here, Disenchanter. It would be very sad to see you go. I can't help but think that you're leaving not because of what might get moderated as on the PRINCIPLE of it all. Which I think it kind of like shooting yourself in the foot since I know you love Paizo.
This point of view is exactly what I am speaking to in my post above. It is because people care about the community (in this case Paizo) so much that they do not want to watch it implode. And it very easily can implode. Principles are important to some people, even if they drive someone to make a decision that is seen as non-advantagous in the short term. I too will miss Disenchanter, but I fully understand his point of view and wish him and the others that will be departing the best.
And gents/ladies that are leaving, if you find a new home, let me know.
You will be missed, Dis.
However, I support Paizo in their decision. Moderation can be quite necessary to civil discourse on the internet, due to the well known formula that Normal Person + Anonymity = Jerk. The other forum I am active in is MTGSalvation, which is heavily moderated. This has taught me that as long as the moderators themselves are not jerks, and that they deal with 'back seat mods' appropriately, moderation goes a long way toward keeping messageboards viable. At this point, I trust Paizo's staff implicitly. So I trust their ability to be fair moderators.
To anyone who is leaving, I hope you will reconsider your decision once 4E is out and the dust has settled (one way or the other.) Otherwise, remember that you will be missed.
I can't understand how the rules of this sub-forum are at all confusing.
I was just seeking clarification on what I could or couldn't post. You certainly clarified for me. Thanks?
Thanks?
You're welcome!
I can't understand how the rules of this sub-forum are at all confusing.
With all due respect, the only difference between the first set of examples and the second is the use of swear words, which are already filtered here if I'm not mistaken.
When you're enforcing the line, it's pretty clear in your mind. Those of us on the receiving end can't see your line, and so it's confusing to us.
If someone where to say that "Designers X, Y and Z are lousy designers because of [cogent reasons a, b, c]", is that a personal attack or a reasonable argument? I bet even the Paizo staff couldn't agree on the answer.
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I think this is funny. Someone new to the boards posts a couple days ago that he doesn't want to post here because the posts are to over the top and people rant about how he was over reacting. Now a couple posts are deleted and the same people that ranted about the new comer overreacting are calling it quites.
The one question I want to ask. Of the people that are leaving did any of your posts get deleted? If not then whats the problem? If so then you have only yourself to blame for the moderation on the boards.
I personally think you're overreacting here, Disenchanter. It would be very sad to see you go. I can't help but think that you're leaving not because of what might get moderated as on the PRINCIPLE of it all. Which I think it kind of like shooting yourself in the foot since I know you love Paizo.This point of view is exactly what I am speaking to in my post above. It is because people care about the community (in this case Paizo) so much that they do not want to watch it implode. And it very easily can implode. Principles are important to some people, even if they drive someone to make a decision that is seen as non-advantagous in the short term. I too will miss Disenchanter, but I fully understand his point of view and wish him and the others that will be departing the best.
And gents/ladies that are leaving, if you find a new home, let me know.
I know what you're saying, I think it just frustrates me that there's no fast forward button because after a few days I think things will be back to normal, minus maybe the "peaks" from some of the argument mountains (how's that for not making sense). It's doubly frustrating that someone like Disenchanter will be leaving over what MIGHT happen. I just wish he'd give it a week, contemplate his navel (it helps), and come back. Ah, well.
If I didn't express it before, Disenchanter, I'm very sorry to see you going and I wish you well wherever you go (and hopefully that's back here).
** spoiler omitted **
If someone where to say that "Designers X, Y and Z are lousy designers because of [cogent reasons a, b, c]", is that a personal attack or a reasonable argument? I bet even the Paizo staff couldn't agree on the answer.
It's easy. Question the design decision or direction and not the deisgners themselves. It cannot be taken as a personal attack and leads to a much more fruitful discussion. Odds are not very many of us know the designers personally and therefore aren't in a position to make statements about them personally.
If someone where to say that "Designers X, Y and Z are lousy designers because of [cogent reasons a, b, c]", is that a personal attack or a reasonable argument? I bet even the Paizo staff couldn't agree on the answer.
Gary and I would both agree that your above example is criticism and we're not in any way whatsoever interested in moderating criticism. Nothing you said in there was disparaging toward a person, company, or other messageboard. Though I think you're getting awfully close by even citing specific designers. I'd refrain from that and instead just say I don't like design choices X, Y, X for reasons A, B, C.
My examples above used swear words only incidentally. The heart of each example was that one spoke to the merits (or lack thereof) of a decision, while the other flung insults at the individual or company.
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If someone where to say that "Designers X, Y and Z are lousy designers because of [cogent reasons a, b, c]", is that a personal attack or a reasonable argument? I bet even the Paizo staff couldn't agree on the answer.
How about "The design is lousy because of reasons A, B and C."
point across in a respectful manner.|
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If someone where to say that "Designers X, Y and Z are lousy designers because of [cogent reasons a, b, c]", is that a personal attack or a reasonable argument? I bet even the Paizo staff couldn't agree on the answer.It's easy. Question the design decision or direction and not the designers themselves. It cannot be taken as a personal attack and leads to a much more fruitful discussion. Odds are not very many of us know the designers personally and therefore aren't in a position to make statements about them personally.
EDIT: Mr frost, you have already answered my post, so I have removed it.
Instead, may I just say That Paizo designers A,B, and C are great due to cogent reasons x,y, and z.
:)
Just for the sake of argument (ahh how I love it!), when we state that a designer is lousy for x,y, or z cogent reason, we are commenting on them PROFESSIONALLY, not personally.
Indeed, but taking the designer out of the statement keep anyone from assuming or misunderstanding your intent.
If someone where to say that "Designers X, Y and Z are lousy designers because of [cogent reasons a, b, c]", is that a personal attack or a reasonable argument? I bet even the Paizo staff couldn't agree on the answer.How about "The design is lousy because of reasons A, B and C."
point across in a respectful manner.
Truer words were never spoken. If you want to criticize a product, choose your words carefully. If you want to criticize a person (specifically someone you've never actually met or know personally) then hit the "Cancel" button.
Self-censorship is a good thing. Its what keeps a lot of married men married, after all. :-)
Greg
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Indeed, but taking the designer out of the statement keep anyone from assuming or misunderstanding your intent.
Just for the sake of argument (ahh how I love it!), when we state that a designer is lousy for x,y, or z cogent reason, we are commenting on them PROFESSIONALLY, not personally.
I really don't care if people jump to assumptions or misunderstandings of my posts or meaning. We as a society should not be so thin skinned that we have to engage in verbal gymnastics to avoid any possibility that something we say could remotely be construed as an insult.
That way leads madness.
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If someone where to say that "Designers X, Y and Z are lousy designers because of [cogent reasons a, b, c]", is that a personal attack or a reasonable argument? I bet even the Paizo staff couldn't agree on the answer.How about "The design is lousy because of reasons A, B and C."
point across in a respectful manner.Truer words were never spoken. If you want to criticize a product, choose your words carefully. If you want to criticize a person (specifically someone you've never actually met or know personally) then hit the "Cancel" button.
Self-censorship is a good thing. Its what keeps a lot of married men married, after all. :-)
Greg
Many people seem confused here. When you criticize a designer for a product, you are criticizing them professionally not personally. You don't have to meet a person to know that you think their book was junk.
And the idea of having to choose your words carefully at all times in an online forum is silly. This is a place for the free exchange of ideas. Moderation can be useful but is inversely related to the health of the exchange.
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First, let me state a few things that I will never be able to stress enough through this media.
1)I do not blame Paizo for their actions, nor do I fault them for it.
2)I do not encourage, nor advocate personal attacks.
3)I can never, never, never express just how angry I am now. Written words will never convey it.
Being one of the persons that have been moderated, I understand why, and I hold no grudge against Paizo whatsoever. Even if I did not mean it as a personal attack I easily see why it would have been perceived as such.
The trend was clear to me, and my words were clumsy. I would have been wiser not to post.
While I stand by my opinion on the point I wanted to do back then, I see no point in adding more fuel to the fire, as things are bad enough now.
Many people seem confused here. When you criticize a designer for a product, you are criticizing them professionally not personally. You don't have to meet a person to know that you think their book was junk.
But it's simple. If you think the book is junk say "the book is junk". Don't say "he's a lousy designer". Stay on topic. In the end, it's not about the people, it's about the product.
And the idea of having to choose your words carefully at all times in an online forum is silly.
Why should an on-line forum be any different than your everyday life? Do you tell your boss exactly what you think of him or her, whenever a thought pops into your head? Do you stop people in the street and tell them you think their outfit looks stupid? Then why do it on-line?
This is a place for the free exchange of ideas.
No, this is Paizo's corporate web site. They allow people to speak their mind within reason. If you want free exchange of ideas go to the nearest public square. Seriously, this is their home, not yours.
Moderation can be useful but is inversely related to the health of the exchange.
Only if you think your posts will get moderated. I don't worry about it so much, but then, I don't want to offend, so I always try to choose my words as best as I can. (I usually re-read my posts 3 or 4 times before posting, for example.)
Greg
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Moderation can be useful but is inversely related to the health of the exchange.Only if you think your posts will get moderated.
Ahh yes, the "Why would you be under investigation if you didn't do anything wrong" argument. I won't even bother to point out why this is a dangerous line of reasoning; that exercise is left to the reader.
Ahh yes, the "Why would you be under investigation if you didn't do anything wrong" argument. I won't even bother to point out why this is a dangerous line of reasoning; that exercise is left to the reader.
Moderation can be useful but is inversely related to the health of the exchange.Only if you think your posts will get moderated.
Sorry, I misspoke. My point was that the "health of the exchange" results from unclear language. If you are worried that your posts are worded such that you may get moderated, chances are you are not speaking clearly enough. The rules are clear - don't insult people. If you are not trying to insult but are worried that you may get moderated, try improving your language.
Most post was about one's fears, not about one's guilt.
Two completely different things.
Greg