I will happily admit that I steer clear of these forums; the level of disagreement between the lovers and haters of the new edition borders on fanaticism. With that said however, why cease giving Paizo your patronage simply because of this subset of forums that was created to isolate the inevitable flame wars? If this is what you have looked at to evaluate the "quality" of Paizo’s fan base, then your experience is shockingly small; I have always found this board to be populated by some of the most intelligent and insightful gamers on the web.
On the flip-side of the coin, if you are turned off by personal attacks, then why are you planning on buying 4E from Wizards of the Coast? Those boards are vicious; in my experience anyone who even thinks of whispering that the new edition will not be the reincarnation of Christ is shot down with numerous personal attacks question everything from their lineage to mental facility.
Yes, there is a large amount of 4E hate that occurs in this forum, but that is true in my experience because this is one of the few places that such haters can come without being jumped on by a huge number of 4E fans. That means that those who are sceptical of 4E tend to migrate here and that attracts both the best and the worst types. Another thing that goes on is a sort of reverse of the trend where 4E haters who felt attacked and beat-upon in other forums come here and vent their frustration on any 4E fan they come across. While this is inexcusable it should not be worth your ignoring paizo as a company or their community as a whole.
So, if you decide to stick around, then welcome, please do not judge us by this 4th Edition forum. It strikes me that it is like going unarmed into a cities worst district and then claiming that said city is a dump even if everything else is sparkling clean and crimeless (admittedly an exaggeration).
CEO
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Thanks for posting your thoughts. I have to agree with a lot that you have said. Before the 4th edition announcement by WotC, these messageboards were known to be the most friendly on the web. It was a great community of folks who all loved to roleplay. The 4th edition announcement has divided the community and caused a lot of angst and anger on both sides of the issue. Personally, I have asked for a more civil discussion on both sides, with some success. But it seems that the upcoming edition change has set people off in a way that I have never seen before in my 25 years in this industry.
Most of my staff doesn't read the 4th edition forums any longer, because of the negativity portrayed there. We've discussed taking steps to force more civility, but really don't like to take such draconian measures. We were hoping that our community leaders would step in and help keep things on an even keel, but I think that even many of them are skipping the 4e forums.
I am hoping that a time will come when the angst will have subsided and 3e and 4e fans can live together in peace and harmony. I think that 3e makes the perfect game for many folks, and can totally understand why many other people are excited about 4e. There is nothing wrong with liking one over another, just like it isn't wrong to prefer True 20, Castles and Crusades, RuneQuest, or any other RPG. I really don't understand why one person choosing 3e over 4e is such a threat to the 4e devotee and vice versa. It is a personal decision and should stay personal, IMHO. My mom always told me that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything. I wish more folks would listen to that good advice.
In closing, I hope that each of us can help make these messageboards the wonderful place that they once were. There are still parts of these boards where creativity and sharing are commonly seen. Where folks care about each other and have gone to great lengths to help each other. That is the part of the Paizo community that I love. Think twice before posting something negative, attacking somebody, or posting in a disparaging way. Together, we can wipe away the "Late Unpleasantness" and get back to what we all love. Roleplaying and gaming in general.
Thanks for listening.
-Lisa
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Rhavin has a good point. You shouldn't judge the Paizo community by looking at this particular subset of the forums. Before you really turn your back on Paizo products you should at least take a good look for example at the Rise of the Runelords threads where you could see just how creative and helpful this community is when the subject is not the new edition. :-) I'm sure that the positivity you find there would easily balance the negativity you found here and were offended by. And when these two "poles" are balanced you should maybe reevaluate your decision of not buying Paizo products which - rest assured - are downright awesome.
BarelyCoherent, Lisa, thanks for your measured words.
Could you close this thread now and make it a sticky in the 4e forums as well? Perhaps it would help to have a permanent reminder that paizo stands to lose customers if this 4e ranting continues. And I don´t think that anyone caring enough to post here wants to hurt paizo.
Stefan
BarelyCoherent and Chrischie,
I'm baffled that you would make a decision to not buy the awesome material that Paizo publishes because of a subset of their messageboards (as several people above me have already pointed out, the 4e forum really isn't in any way indicative of the rest of the messageboards).
While I fully agree that the vitriol (from both sides of the aisle, mind you, although granted it's probably 60%-40% anti-4e/pro-4e) is highly unbecoming of some of the posters, it also shows to me that Paizo isn't afraid to let people voice their opinions.
If people outside Paizo.com refer to these boards as "thought poison" that, to me, also shows that they lack the perspective of all of the boards, not just a very small subset of them.
Again, if you want to miss out on the awesome Pathfinder stuff, because of people not related to the company, people you are completely free to ignore, then it's really your loss. :-)
I hope you both reconsider your stances and gives the rest of the boards a lookover and judge the materials Paizo publishes based on its own merits, not the messageboards.
Hi BarelyCoherent, and thanks for sharing your thoughts.
First of all, let me say that I wholeheartedly agree with you when you point out that personal insults and slandering posts with no content (à la "This makes me ill") have no place here, or in any constructive discussion. I am still very uncertain about 4th edition and I am looking forward to reading interesting, constructive discussions where opinions are developped, explained, and shared.
That being said, I would like to point out three things that perhaps you might want to consider.
1. For an unmoderated board, I think that the Paizo boards are not doing too bad, and that speaks well for the quality of the majority of the posters here. 4E threads on other boards are full of moderator edits, warnings, and bans ... and they still contain a lot of messages devoid of interesting content. Sure, there are a few - let's say - perhaps less mature or vehemently opiniated posters who sometimes write gut-inspired posts that would be better left unwritten, but you can still find high quality discussions and several posters who can share their opinions in a civil way around here. You might simply do what I do and just skip/ignore posts with no interesting contents.
2. In my experience, I have found that what you describe here also exists in other major boards (especially on the ENWorld and WotC boards you cite). I have tried asking 4E questions and sharing my doubts about some of the new rules on ENWorld. I expected to get answers from people who agreed and disagreed with me, I expected to get different opinions and comments ... but I only got condescending snarky comments from fans who are apparently unable to accept that some people still have doubts about 4E. And the emptiness (content-wise) of many threads on the WotC boards also incites me to stay away from there. So, as far as the "aggressive" tone, I think that it is quite unfair to single out Paizo boards ... the only noticeable difference between these boards and the other boards cited above is that the major trend is anti-4E here and pro-4E on those other boards.
3. I believe that you make a mistake in basing your decision about Paizo products (or even about Paizo) on what you read on this specific forum, for two reasons.
3a. First, I believe that you are focusing on a very small part of the forums - that is, this 4E discussion board. If you take a look at the other forums (e.g., the forums discussing Golarion, the adventure paths, the GameMastery modules, ...), you will find a large number of posters who are more than ready to help each other, share advice about how to play/enhance the modules, share props and handouts, and so on. There clearly is a lot of hate and strong opinions here but this is very specific to the 4E forum (which is only a small part of the whole Paizo forums).
3b. Second, I believe that it's unfair to judge the quality of a product made by a company by the posts found on its forums. If I could give you only one advice, it would be to download the two (free) players' guides for the Adventure Paths and read them. I would bet that taking a look at them will make you completely forget your negative impression based on the forums! There's nothing that could speak better about the Paizo products than ... the products themselves.
Here's to hoping that you'll stick around Paizo forums (just ignore the 4E boards if you want) and check out those modules ! It would be a shame to miss out on those just because of some unpleasant posts, really.
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Honestly, seems to me if you don't like what's happening in the 4th edition forums then it's best to steer clear. I'm not quite sure why this might sour you on Paizo's products. The boards are a free service provided to the community, seems that if you don't really like whats happening on em then just not peek in. I wouldn't let it get to ya, and if you've been happy with the products then no reason to let the boards make ya not want em.
I'm not excusing any sort of behavior, but ya also gotta understand that people are pretty fired up about this issue. To that end, I would step back and keep that in mind when you read the 4th ed posts.
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If i would buy Rise of the Runelords and i want to convert it to 4e. Maybe i will have a question about that. I went to this place an ask what will the answer be? "Go away WoW-Jerk"?
You seem to have chosen to pick out the anti-4e posters and ignore the pro-4e posters. You would, more than likely, get helpful comments from the pro-4e posters and those who have chosen to remain utterly neutral until the material is actually in hand.
I would like to point out that most of the vitriol being hurled about is due in large part to the fact that no one has seen the rules. People are reading things into the pieces released by WotC, and without anything concrete, the only debate that can currently occur is discussion (and tactless argument) over these fragmentary and ill-explained pieces that have been gleaned.
Once 4e is released, then you will likely find that quite a large number of the people ranting against 4e have gone to a different part of the board and that this section is actually helpful. To judge the future state of the 4e forum post-release by the hysteria pre-release is not advisable. People are prone to mob mentality and being ruled by their emotions.
3a. First, I believe that you are focusing on a very small part of the forums - that is, this 4E discussion board. If you take a look at the other forums (e.g., the forums discussing Golarion, the adventure paths, the GameMastery modules, ...), you will find a large number of posters who are more than ready to help each other, share advice about how to play/enhance the modules, share props and handouts, and so on. There clearly is a lot of hate and strong opinions here but this is very specific to the 4E forum (which is only a small part of the whole Paizo forums).
Specifically, a percentage of 503 threads, against the 20000+ threads of the other sections of the forum. Again, people in general tend to prone to irrational behavior and mob mentality, and this will almost certainly die down to a bare minimum, if anything at all, once the actual rulebooks are released. To accuse Paizo of failure to moderate a board that is provided for free to allow open discussion without having heavy-handed moderators in the middle of it all is patently unfair to Paizo itself. Similarly, it is unfair to lump all posters into an anti-4e crowd when a sizable majority of us are either neutral, withholding judgment, or actively avoiding the negative threads and/or the entire forum because there is no concrete material to debate until the rules are openly available.
This is, in a sense, similar to me saying that I hate all French-speaking people because the inhabitants of Paris are jerks.
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I think it is a great pity – both for Paizo and yourselves – if you choose to pass on these great products, and the fantastic world that the Paizo crew and this community are building here, due to the poor behavior and frankly quite juvenile antics of a relatively small section of this community, generally confined to one section of these boards.
As others here have done, I would encourage you to explore other areas of these boards, where ideas are exchanged and discussed in a (generally) civil and friendly manner. There is a lot of good stuff going on here, if you avoid (as I try to do) getting bogged down in the 4e forums.
Yes, there is a lot of hate and vitriol there – I’m not happy about it myself, but I’m waiting to see things calm down once there is more certainty and solid information about the new edition. I think it is, perhaps, shortsighted to make purchasing decisions as you seem to have done, without doing the same (and here I am talking about Paizo’s products, not that you should not decide on 4e now).
Despite the fierce and often non-constructive debate, I am glad that Paizo has decided not to take a heavier hand in moderation. It’s one of the things I value about these boards, the ability to actually discuss and voice one’s opinions – even if they are not the ‘popular’ opinion – without being censored. I think for the most part that has led to a lot of good things here, and a very strong community. The 4e section of the boards is an exception to that.
Obviously 4e is a very emotional issue for a lot of people – from the rabid anti 4e quarter who make stupid and flaming posts, to the people who decide not to support a company because their boards appear anti 4e. Both sections of the community, I believe, are acting hastily and somewhat foolishly, without all the facts before them.
@GentleGiant
Yes it is my loss but sadly paizos loss too.
I don't feel welcome here because of all the trouble about 4e.If i would buy Rise of the Runelords and i want to convert it to 4e. Maybe i will have a question about that. I went to this place an ask what will the answer be? "Go away WoW-Jerk"?
There was a point where i would run my 4e game in Golarion. Now i have preorderd the Realms Setting book for 4e. :(
As Kassil also writes, after 4e has been released I think the 4e section of these boards is going to change dramatically in nature.
After the new books have been released I'll bet that lots of people will want to convert the 3.5 adventure paths to 4e and you'd be able to find lots and lots of great advice for doing so.I think 99% of the dissenting voices stem from the fact that they're actually scared that Paizo might go entirely 4e and thus won't produce any more Pathfinder goodness for 3.5. Their written words might say otherwise, but I truly believe this is the deep down fear that drives most of the anti-4e crowd.
And should a troll (whether a anti-4e or a pro-4e specimen) jump into a constructive 4e thread, the best weapon for defeating them has always been to ignore their posts. Unlike in the actual game, fire is actually the worst weapon to use against them. :-)
Again, try to travel outside the 4e section of the boards and I'll bet that you'd feel more than welcome!
Kassil,
Hear, Hear!
That was a wonderful response. The 4e thread just goes back and forth without adding anything. There is just too little information out there.
The information that is out there:
1) Still no GSL (right?).
2) Still no decision from Paizo.
What I do find baffling is that the OP holds Paizo responsible for the free speech of others, and takes it out on them by not purchasing the fine products Paizo offer.
@GentleGiant
Yes it is my loss but sadly paizos loss too.
I don't feel welcome here because of all the trouble about 4e.If i would buy Rise of the Runelords and i want to convert it to 4e. Maybe i will have a question about that. I went to this place an ask what will the answer be? "Go away WoW-Jerk"?
There was a point where i would run my 4e game in Golarion. Now i have preorderd the Realms Setting book for 4e. :(
I'm sorry to hear that your question was answered by someone with no class. But all of us want to know what's happening with Paizo in regard to 4E, and it's neither the fault of the posters nor the fault of Paizo that this decision is not yet made.
If you spend a little time looking at threads that don't deal in 4E vehemence, like the Pathfinder threads which are many, you will find that there are a lot of nice people here, and we are far more numerous than those who are quarrelling.
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If i would buy Rise of the Runelords and i want to convert it to 4e. Maybe i will have a question about that. I went to this place an ask what will the answer be? "Go away WoW-Jerk"?
No it won't. People who dislike 4E for whatever reasons won't normally chime in your thread to say so (as long as said thread isn't about how wonderful 4E is and how much superior with regards to 3E - both may be true, but that is still to be seen).
To give you an analogon: Most of the posters here at Paizo seem to dislike the Eberron campaign setting, which is my favorite setting at the moment (ok, one of two, I love my Golarion very much). There have been arguments because off this, when an Eberron fan became to vocal about why Eberron was the best setting of all times and so. Still, I have never been attacked solely on the fact that I love Eberron and dared to ask an eberron-related question.
I totally understand why you dislike what you see in the 4E forums. As a matter of fact I tend to stay away from them (as others do) most of the time and feel kind of offended that you project the behavior of a vocal but not representative minority onto the whole Paizo community.
This most probably won't change your decision regarding Paizo products. Which surely means a loss to Paizo. But as you stated before, you lose as well, and, if I'm allowed to say so, you lose for the wrong reasons.
Best regards,
Wormy
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I think 99% of the dissenting voices stem from the fact that they're actually scared that Paizo might go entirely 4e and thus won't produce any more Pathfinder goodness for 3.5. Their written words might say otherwise, but I truly believe this is the deep down fear that drives most of the anti-4e crowd.
As someone who is neither pro-4e nor anti-4e, I have to say that I strongly suspect you are correct; by the same token, I suspect a number of the people expressing a strong negative toward those who are preferring to remain 3.5 is because they're worried Paizo might choose to remain entirely 3.5 and deprive them of a 4.0 version of Pathfinder. No matter what, the real loser of this little war is Paizo, as the zealots on each side are going to feel slighted no matter what Paizo's final decision is, with those who feel slighted dropping their subscriptions in protest.
Given that I'm not likely to play 3.5 or 4.0 anytime soon, my interest in the Pathfinder world remains in the setting itself, independent of the rules, and I'm perfectly willing to offer help to anyone who has conversion questions as long as I have the material at hand to do so.
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@Mothman
I see your point but i don't seperate der board and the company.
In my specific opinion, this is a mistake, as it is much like hating all French-speakers because you don't like Paris, or hating Americans because a New Yorker was rude to you. Paizo has not gone and announced that 4e-haters have free reign and 4e-lovers will be banned. They have, in fact, asked that the discussions be kept civil, while trying to remain neutral so as not to stir up people screaming about favoritism. They literally cannot afford to play that game, especially at this point in time, since they don't know as of yet if they'll be able to deal with the GSL, because it hasn't arrived yet.
This is not about opions or criticism. That is ok and a good and important thing. But this whole subborad ist about a very aggressiv animosity against everything that has something to do with 4e.
First: if it isn't about opinions and criticism, then what the heck is it about? I thought the opinions of the anti-4e posters was what the problem was.
Second: As pointed out in the various posts you skipped past while replying to Mothman, the anti-4e posters are a very small section of the posters on this forum, whose opinions you are unfairly applying to all of us. There are a fair number of pro-4e posters (crosswiredmind immediately springs to mind) who make positive comments about the subject, and a much, much larger portion who just aren't getting involved because we don't have the facts about any of the rules. At the moment, the aggressive animosity you speak of is largely the fear of the people who are worried about all of their products and materials suddenly being 'worthless' - irrational, but then people tend to be. Given that you won't have the rules to convert RotRL or CoCT to 4e until the rules are released, I do not see why you feel that the current bickering is going to result in people calling you a 'WoWjerk' when the rules *are* released and people suddenly have said rules to occupy them as opposed to the poorly-handled public relations efforts of WotC. By then the issue of which direction Paizo will be going should be settled and much of the debate will have died off because whichever side was offended by the decision will have packed off and left, leaving the mature and rational people to further the discussions.
..and I've been trying to quit my 4e commenting habit...
OK, I agree with GentleGiant here. I'm not pro-4e, I'm actually a little scared of it... but I'm certainly not going to try to shut down a thread about how to convert Rise of the Runelords to 4e... I think that would actually be a reasonable challenge!
Blaming all of the Paizo board members for the (true, very vocal) people who are very anti-4e is like my mother refusing to watch anything on TV because "American TV is garbage" (no, I haven't convinced her to watch Firefly yet, I'm still trying). If you label things and if you stick in your heels and refuse to budge, it just makes you look silly.
Think of it this way- we're a great school, with fantastic extracurricular activities (seriously, just have a look at the massive variety of reader feedback on the Rise of the Runelords books- player created handouts, special character sheets, review/comments on modules, etc), excellent teacher feedback (though don't ask Mr Logue about his magazine collection, it's creepy), great student-student relations... and you're refusing to buy our stationery because of the bunch of bullies who sit in the corner and make nasty jokes about another school?
There are people working on conversion of RotRL to True20... whatever that is. I think I may even have commented on one of those threads. I've been making custom miniatures of some of the special characters from RotRL from Fimo and posting pictures. People are posting their progress and how to deal with tricky situations. People have been making extra encounters to add detail to certain areas... what's not to love?
Edit: Oh, and by the way, I've tried WoW. It wasn't really my thing. I've since tried RF Online, and I'm still playing that a week later. Maybe I'll even like 4e?
.. with fantastic extracurricular activities ....
Don't forget the amazing pbps.
There are people working on conversion of RotRL to True20... whatever that is. I think I may even have commented on one of those threads. I've been making custom miniatures of some of the special characters from RotRL from Fimo and posting pictures. People are posting their progress and how to deal with tricky situations. People have been making extra encounters to add detail to certain areas... what's not to love?
About that... ¿Will The pdf conversions of Pathfinder to True20 continue if Paizo chages the first to fourth edition based?
I think that some of the dislike with the fouth in this forum comes from the fear of Paizo changing to fourth (almost it is my case, I don't hate the fourth but i must recognize that it isn't a game for me, but I love the pathfinder line and all of Golarion material). This not justify the "insults" but explain the animosity.
Please excuse my poor english.
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Paizo's big problem is that they don't censor their fans? They have the perverse lack of taste to allow people to voice both positive and negative opinions about a subject? Wow, then you definitely shouldn't buy any of their products- even if it's for a different game than the one discussed on the offending part of the board, and even if they didn't make any of the offending comments themselves. The nerve of them to give people the freedom to speak their mind. From what I hear, people aren't allowed to say mean things about 4th edition on ENworld and WotC's website, so maybe you'll be more comfortable with...I'm having a hard time thinking of a nice word for fascists. Oh well.
Patient : Doctor, it hurts when I do this.
Doctor: Stop doing that.
If reading about other people's opinions on the upcoming edition gives you so much angst, then just stop doing it.
Problem solved.
And kick-ass, undead mascots...... with fantastic extracurricular activities ....Don't forget the amazing pbps.
Now I feel bad about changing my avatar...
These boards have become appallingly bad. Here's just a quick selection of comments:
From what I hear, people aren't allowed to say mean things about 4th edition on ENworld and WotC's website, so maybe you'll be more comfortable with...I'm having a hard time thinking of a nice word for fascists. Oh well.
These 4E designers must be either lazy or stupid. Or both.
I wouldn't take any comments from Necromancer Games seriously. Their products usually lack in both quality and design.
... it must be hard on you to have something you care so much about be kicked in the teeth and not be able to respond. Sorry about that.
Those spells are from This Page. Looks legit. And the art looks crap.
Dead Horse Sh!T! It's all Drek! Created by lies, Shrouded in Secrecy
This smacks of a lack of individual thought, a rote copying of what is read elsewhere. No wonder the MM design rules confound you ... Atop that, you bring flawed arguments from another board from others that suffer from the same malady as you do to this board in an effort to make your point since you cannot apparently expend the effort to construct a valid point on your own ... At the very least this approach reveals your apathy toward the topic and at the worst is intellectually dishonest.
That's with 3 minutes of looking. That last quote is actually from someone arguing the quality monsters produced by Necromancer Games proves the 3.5 monster creation rules are just fine and don't need any help. And they're arguing on the "Clark Peterson on 4e Monster Design" thread.
This board has been sliding rapidly to the gutter for months. The most frequent posters are so angry and so bitter they've just about driven everyone else into lurking, so they spend most of the threads cattily posting information about 4e and how much it's going to suck. They discount information from WotC because they're all corporate shills, they discount information from freelancers because they're all planning to write for WotC, and they discount information from playtesters because their reviews are too positive, so WotC is probably censoring them.
Does this board reflect badly on Paizo? No, but it's probably hurting them in the PR department. If someone's interested in 4e, and they're interested in Paizo's opinion of it, they're likely to check in here. And the take away is that Paizo's fanbase is rabidly anti-4e, which probably means Paizo is too.
As others have said, once Paizo decides what it's doing, a lot of the angst will probably go away.
Also, I would NOT say Paizo is blameless in the way this forum has gone. The threads that are in here STARTED by Paizo staff are designed (albeit unintentionally, perhaps) to pit the 3.5 faithful vs. the 4E faithful in an attempt to help Paizo decide which way it goes.
The fact that Paizo folks are avoiding this forum is rather remarkable (and quite disappointing) in light of the above.
I will say this, though, based on the polls, if Paizo doesn't at least have some 3.5 support after 4E comes out, then such threads were apparently a complete waste of time.
@GentleGiant
I went to this place an ask what will the answer be? "Go away WoW-Jerk"?
This is precisely the reason I stopped frequenting the WOTC messageboards. I could write a positive post and receive nothing but ridicule in return. My point is that regardless of where you go you will run into some posters who behave this way, be it Paizo, WOTC, or other site you choose to visit. It is difficult to be "tough" and handle comments by people. I have been displeased by a few here as well. What I have learned to do is skip reading the posts of certain individuals who like to argue, put down, and otherwise be less than friendly to me. Fortunetly, in my opinion the far greater number of people on Paizo do not behave this way. If they did, I would leave that message board as well. I do avoid getting drawn into debates even if I am tempted to post (one needs to control themseleves).
What I learned from visiting message boards is that the gaming communty is actually a lot different than I realized. I always thought everyone was just like me (more or less). I had not realized that such a large assortment of people exist. I must admit that much of what I have learned about the RPG industry and the various sorts of fans has placed a considerable damper on my ability to enjoy certain games. As a result though, I continue to communicate with those I seem to share similarities with and pass on those that I don't.
Example: I grew up on D&D and have played one other game extensively as well. As much as I have enjoyed D&D over the years, it isn't something I want to continue with all that much in the advent of 4th edition. What some people decided was "unfun" was FUN to me and my group. What they decided was fun I feel is "UNFUN". I will spare you the details because they are not central to the topic. What matters is that D&D is no longer fun for me because of changes that have occurred. It has hurt me enough to no longer enjoy 3.5 as well (despite that I pretty much like the system for the most part. As a result I have moved on to other RPG opportunities. D&D is not everything in the world of gaming. I'm sure eventually I will play and enjoy the game again, thus I retain my collection of 3.5 books and my wonderful World of Greyhawk.
To concentrate on just one topic such as 4th edition will just eat you up inside if you let it (whether your for it or against it doesn't matter). Being on either end of the spectrum will cause you hurt. If your for it, it hurts that others don't want to see it and will disagree with your favortism towards it. If your against it, it pains you to see WOTC change the game from what you are familiar with and grew up on. Regardless it is painful to see other posters disagree with you. When I get this way (hurt, to riled up etc. I take a time out. Slowly you will find the balance necessary to move on and enjoy the game of your choice. In the meantime you'll learn whom to avoid, what thread sections to avoid, and where your friends will be, whether it is pro 4th edition, anti 4th edition, Paizo, WOTC, Canonfire, Enworld, etc. The messageboards and RPG industry is big enough for everyone. You just need to find the little corner that your comfortable with.
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This is precisely the reason I stopped frequenting the WOTC messageboards. I could write a positive post and receive nothing but ridicule in return. My point is that regardless of where you go you will run into some posters who behave this way, be it Paizo, WOTC, or other site you choose to visit. It is difficult to be "tough" and handle comments by people. I have been displeased by a few here as well. What I have learned to do is skip reading the posts of certain individuals who like to argue, put down, and otherwise be less than friendly to me. Fortunetly, in my opinion the far greater number of people on Paizo do not behave this way. If they did, I would leave that message board as well. I do avoid getting drawn into debates even if I am tempted to post (one needs to control themseleves).
Well said, Eileen. Well said.
BarelyCoherent,
I must say, I found your post baffling. The very reason I first came here is specifically because I found the Paizo boards to be a bastion of civility and free thought in a sea of less welcoming and less balanced messageboards. There are a lot of really smart, interesting people here and they are usually far more polite than a couple of well known message boards with which I am familiar. Plenty of people disagree with me here, but they usually do so by setting forth their reasons for doing so. If there is a more civil, more welcoming and more thought-provoking messageboard somewhere, that would be news to me. I think this is one of the greatest RPG communities around. However, (in true Paizo messageboard form) I will acknowledge that you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I will not disparage you for differing with my own reasoned conclusions.
I do find it somewhat concerning that all of your examples of rude behavior are of the anti-4th edition camp. I do not know if it was intended, but the implication is that pro-4th edition folk are nice and anti-4th edition folk are rude. It is my opinion that there have been offenders in both camps. Yes, some anti-4th edition folk (here and elsewhere) have suggested that 4th edition fans are hyeractive, ADD addled, Pokemon-loving, MMORPG griefers. However, it seems that just as many pro-4th edition fans (and to some extent, WOTC themselves) have disregarded the opinions of the anti-4th edition camp as the old-fashioned, rigidly nostalgic ramblings of "Grognards."
I am a bit concerned that you would choose to purposefully not do business with Paizo specifically because they allow the debate to be waged, unfettered by iron-fisted moderation. If they have a fault, it is in allowing too much freedom. But I would submit that by allowing more freedom, by hearing more from both sides, one is better able to make an informed decision about what he or she personally believes. And in so doing, I believe Paizo does this community a great service and one for which I am grateful. I hope you will stick around these boards and give the community the chance to change your mind.
Whichever way one leans, there have been some embarrassing attacks on both sides. The problem is that we all love this game. And we all have strong opinions of how it should be. The 4th edition fans are excited that the game is changing in ways that make them happy. But the anti-4th edition folk are concerned that their favorite hobby seems to be changing in such a way as to become nearly unrecognizable. Surely both points of view have merit? And, indeed, such is the brilliance of Paizo. They value the merit of informed debate. I'm not familiar with anywhere else where one can so readily find proponents from both camps who speak their minds.
Although he wasn't talking about D&D, I still agree with Judge Learned Hand who once wrote that "the truth is more likely to be gathered out of a multitude of tongues rather than through any sort of authoritative selection. To many this is, and will always be, folly, but we have staked upon it our all."
@Mothman
I see your point but i don't seperate der board and the company.
I will go and pick up 4e so i'm looking for a setting. So i found pathfinder and Golarion. At that point i went to the 4e-subboards and read through the threads. At that point i learned, that i'm not welcome here. So Pazio runs this boards it is theirs. Here is the support for Pathfinder and if i'm not welcome here why should i buy the books?
And this is how the WOTC boards made me feel. So where does that leave us? It left me no longer wanting to play D&D at all. I still visit about it, but now I don't buy anything at all and I haven't played for months on end. What did this attitude/feeling get me....a lot of empty hours and bitterness. I wish I had curbed my thinking better at the time. Now I found a solution that works for me and hope to be playing a RPG again soon. Allowing the very hate you and the OP are complaining about is now eating you up. Nothing positive to gain here through this for anyone involved, you or the gaming companies. Time to turn the switch from off to on.
There are a lot of really smart, interesting people here .....Why thank you, but you forgot "charming", "debonair", "kind", "generous".....
Yes, but based on your avatar I wouldn't include handsome. (smiles)
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A slight threadjack if I may WormysQueue, but one that might be relevant to the subject at hand.
To give you an analogon: Most of the posters here at Paizo seem to dislike the Eberron campaign setting, which is my favorite setting at the moment (ok, one of two, I love my Golarion very much).
I’m not sure that is quite accurate, that most posters here dislike Eberron. A lot do, a lot don’t. I think the problem is that the haters form a very vocal minority (whether that’s a large or small minority I’m not sure).
I think to some extent the same thing is happening with the 4e debate. Sure, there’s been a lot of emotion, a lot of angst, a lot of chest beating, but I’m not convinced that most people here hate 4e. A lot are undecided, a lot plan to stick with 3.5 (or an older edition) because they like the older edition rather than because they hate 4. A lot are just getting caught up in the emotion, or reacting to others emotion on the subject.
I think the actual 4e haters are in the minority – but unfortunately they are a very vocal minority, and there is also a perceived (and sometimes actual) support from the undecided camp and the 3.5 loyalist (as opposed to 4e hater) camp.
Still, I have never been attacked solely on the fact that I love Eberron and dared to ask an eberron-related question.
This is where the difference lies; at least some people here do appear to be attacked (either overtly or covertly) because they love 4e. That may not be the root cause, but to a visitor reading an argument on a thread (that actually may have had it’s origin in another thread begun months ago), that’s how it will appear. And that’s what I would like to see stopped.
I support anyone’s right to voice praise or criticism about 4e or 3.5 or Golarion or whatever they like (although I sometimes question the relevance of doing either in the case of 4e when there is so much we really don’t know); but the line should be drawn at leveling personal criticism or abuse at other posters. Discussion, great. Debate, fine. Disagreement, healthy. Flame wars should have no place here.
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Yeah und people who worte things like that
Paizo's big problem is that they don't censor their fans? They have the perverse lack of taste to allow people to voice both positive and negative opinions about a subject? Wow, then you definitely shouldn't buy any of their products- even if it's for a different game than the one discussed on the offending part of the board, and even if they didn't make any of the offending comments themselves. The nerve of them to give people the freedom to speak their mind. From what I hear, people aren't allowed to say mean things about 4th edition on ENworld and WotC's website, so maybe you'll be more comfortable with...I'm having a hard time thinking of a nice word for fascists. Oh well.
Yes ... that post probably wasn't very helpful to the point that most of us are trying to make.
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And this is how the WOTC boards made me feel. So where does that leave us? It left me no longer wanting to play D&D at all. I still visit about it, but now I don't buy anything at all and I haven't played for months on end. What did this attitude/feeling get me....a lot of empty hours and bitterness. I wish I had curbed my thinking better at the time. Now I found a solution that works for me and hope to be playing a RPG again soon. Allowing the very hate you and the OP are complaining about is now eating you up. Nothing positive to gain here through this for anyone involved, you or the gaming companies. Time to turn the switch from off to on.
Sorry to hear of your bad experience Eileen. Hope that your solution for more RPing works out and you're having fun with it again soon!
Yeah und people who worte things like that
offending post snipped
I have to agree that posting stuff like this is not very helpful, especially in this thread, and seems to support your impression of these boards being rabidly anti-4e and even resorting to ad hominem attacks, without any discernible provocation. But if you take the number of sensible posts on this thread and compare it to the number of "other" posts, I still think that the sensible posts are in the majority. Please don´t let some spoilsports ruin your fun, and try to ignore these kind of posts, as you have to on nearly every messageboard out there.
Stefan
Sigh..
There are neutral folks, as someone mentioned earlier. And there is an effort made, even in the 4th Edition Boards, to encourage civil discussion. To engage the topics that are actually brought up.
Sometimes it's like swimming upstream I realize.
I've been saying lately, that the delay in the GSL is almost as damaging as whatever decision will actually be made, either for 4th Edition, or against it.. Stuck in limbo like this is worse, because it has brought us to this place.
I regret that the community has inadvertantly chased off potential customers.
Of course, the upset posters do have a responsibility to seperate what is said by fans and the actual Paizo products themselves. Punishing the company won't change things.
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Uhh, this discussion is kinda sad...
Im totally undecided on 4E at the moment (with a tendency to stick with 3.5) and I usually avoid most discussions on the topic.
I too sensed the negativity in those threads and there are some posters that just don't know how to lead a civilized discussion.
But this can't be said about the mayority of the ppl posting here; not even in the 4E threads.
I rarely open one of the 4E threads (only when I'm seriously bored...) and thus I have a completely different perception of the Paizo boards.
I never found a community like this on any other board (be it RPG-related or something else).
I never experienced unfriendly answers or being made fun off or whatever the OPs stated.
Whatever I'm asking or like to discuss; usually I get quick responses and usually quality-responses and advices too!
And, as Wormy already said, it doesn't even matter, which system or CS you favor. Even ridiculous posts that pop up from time to time are answered in a most civilized manner.
I'm stunned that the perception of a community can vary that much!
Okay, I have to admit that I maybe wouldn't have checked out these boards when my first contact would've been within the 4E forum. I can understand that. People are fast on opinions...
But I'll assure you, that these guys are a minority within the community. And the reaction of the staff shows, that it is a minority that isn't beloved by the Paizo staff too!
Look how active these guys (and girls) are on the topics in other channels.
There's no day passing by without James or Mike or someone else posting in a variety of threads.
And then look how many posts by the staff you'll find within the 4E channel. Zero.
But what do you guys expect Paizo to do?
Closing the 4E channel?
This doesn't seem to be an option, because there's a need to discuss this topic. These topics would then be posted in the D&D channel or somewhere else.
I think it's good (in a bad way, of course...) that all the negativity stays in the 4E channel and doesn't spread to the rest of the boards.
And it sure doesn't, because I read it every day and can assure you, that outside of the 4E channel, you'll find a friendly, dedicated and helpful community you'll rarely find on other boards.
All i can say is...wow.
I've been playing the game in one incarnation or other for a long time and have been dubious with each change. More for pocketbook reasons of having to possibly replace my libraries than any worry about gameplay. I don't know if I'll like 4e or want to pretend i never heard of it. I DO know that it seems to be a completely different game than the one I've been playing. Not saying that it is, or that different is bad, just that it seems that way. And different is just that, different.
People are free to like what they will, play what they will, but no matter the opinion there will always be SOMEONE out there who dislikes what you do. Theres an old saying "opinions are like rear ends, everyone has one and they all stink (to someone)"
Take this for what you will from a semi-permanent lurker on these boards but a subscriber thats been with Paizo for a long time. The products are great, regardless of edition the story, backgrounds, setting and artwork are top notch. The quality of the forums might be debatable but you can't argue with the work produced by the company. I'm not sure if i will play 4e, 3.x, a homebrew with the best of both, or both systems. However I do know that i will continue buying paizo for inspiration for my campaign in any incarnation.
Avoid the forums if you must in order to maintain sanity, but I'd give the products a try.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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OK, I'm going to admit that I was a poster in some of the 4e Threads that maybe got a little to vehement in some of the things I said. I got a little carried away and fired up, but I have avoided the 4e Threads for quite some time now.
That being said, there are a couple of reasons why I have stuck around here and have given Paizo my Patronage.
BarelyCoherent: I was alot like you (slightly older) in that I too got out of D&D sometime towards the end of 2e and completely missed 3e altogether. Do you know what brought me back to the game and has made me spend (quite literally) Thousands of dollars on 3.5 products in the last 2 years?
Paizo!
I picked up a copy of Dungeon from my local newsagents because it came with a poster map (and because I got hit with a wave of nostalgia). I picked up a copy of Dragon the following month and was impressed by the quality of both, so I started buying them on a regular basis again. Of course I couldn't understand the stats of anything (well, barely) and so I picked up a copy of the 3.5 PHB. It kinda snowballed from there. It actually took me a while to come to www.paizo.com (I think it may have been to buy the STAP Player's Guide, my first purchase here). It took me even longer to start posting on the boards (I did lurk for a while). Not once in 320 Posts (this will be 321) have I EVER felt that I am not wanted or felt insulted on these Messageboards. I have posted on the WoTC Boards I think twice in comparison and have felt belittled by the replies to my rules questions on both occasions. Not once have I had anything but positive input from any questions I have had or Threads I have started. I don't visit the WotC boards anymore as a result, but 321 posts later I am still here! I still buy WotC products (I Love the Eberron Setting and have every Sourcebook/Adventure and a half dozen novels), but the majority of my gaming budget is spent here on Paizo because I truly believe that they have THE Best quality 3.5 products around. Paizo's Customer Service it must be said is also without peer (Shout Out to Cos and Corey).
But I digress. Back to the Original Topic...
Personally I do think that people are carrying the vitriol regarding 4e a little to far. I do however think that people are entitled to their opinions. Isn't one of America's big "Things" (I am not American by the way) the Right of Free Speech? Other boards do carry the same kinds of sentiment that you are seeing here, but the majority of it is censored or deleted (WotC is a big player in this scene). You do seem to say that all of the ahte/malice/flames comes from the anti-4e crowd (of which I am nominally a member. I won't convert, but I will buy the Core Books and Campaign Settings). I think it was GentleGiant who pointed out that both sides are to blame here, but that the anti-4e people are definately in the majority. I think that the reason for this is because this is a non-censored forum where people can vent without fear of being... well for want of a better word censored.
At this stage what has been going on is nothing more than back and forth banter about why said person does/does not like 4e. Yes it does get out of hand, but at it's heart that's all it really is just banter.
Lisa stated that she considered forcing people to be civil, but didn't want to be that harsh (Draconian I think she said, probably Sivak). I applaud her on this. Paizo may not be proud of some of the things on their boards, but at least they have the guts to let people figure things out for themselves.
I will agree with other posters here on 2 final points before my ramblings will come to an end.
1. All of the bad feelings will die down after 4e is released. There will still be pro and anti-4e posters, but the vitriol will have died down and they will once again become civil to one another. If you look at some of the 4e threads I think you will find that people who post and play together amiably and in some cases quite personally in other threads have widely varying opinions about 4e.
And finally
2. Why should you judge Paizo because of the opinions of the people who play/use their products? That's kinda like saying "I'm not going back to that Restaurant because even though I love the food and the staff are the best I've ever seen, some of the people who eat there are rude slobs".
Cheers
Craig
EDIT: Wow, it took me approximately 1 hr and 45 minutes to compose this post. When I started writing this Wormy's was the last entry and Chrischie's came in just 7 minutes later.
Sorry to hear of your bad experience Eileen. Hope that your solution for more RPing works out and you're having fun with it again soon!
Thanks for your support Mothman. Actually the fun has started, it just starting out slow. Been playing RPG to long to quit now. Just needed to find new direction and interest which resulted in me writing my own RPG based on the Legion of Super-Heroes. Point being, that the energy and positive thoughts are there once again.
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The very first time I found/posted here I saw the 4th ed rederick and thought it was silly. I posted a message about how edition doesn't matter and got overwhelmed by the pro/con debate. Since then I have avoided the back and forth leaning on an ancient online phrase. "Arguing on the internet is like being in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you’re still retarded."
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If i would buy Rise of the Runelords and i want to convert it to 4e. Maybe i will have a question about that. I went to this place an ask what will the answer be? "Go away WoW-Jerk"?
Has anybody actually, on these boards, told you to go away? Your use of verb tenses is a bit disjointed but I sense you are posing a hypothetical. Are you seriously saying you don't feel comfortable asking a question because you may hypothetically be insulted? My advice would be - you should always assume the best of people. You will be proven wrong at times; but you will be a happier person. If you want, in the future, to convert RotRL to 4e, ask away, and I bet you would get lots of advice (when the time came).
RotRL Spoilers:
I have basically decided 4e is not for me but have thought about what a conversion might look like. The initial assault would have many more goblins (up to 300) and would probably come from the glasswork factory, meaning hypothetically the PCs could do the raid, the factory and the catacombs of wrath in a single day. They would uncover Tsuto's work and have a bead on histletop that first night. This would greatly alter the story but 4e seems to be about faster game play so there you are. Likewise Thistletop would have a hundred or more goblins and the attack on Sandpoint would be much more imminent.
There you go, free advice on conversions. :)
I would just like to voice my support of the opinions Kassil has expressed here. I'm one of those people who is neither pro- nor anti-4E; I believe that I can't make any sensible decision about whether I want to play the game until I've read the rules. Like Kassil, I feel that there are a lot of us about, and we generally don't spend much time in the 4E section of these boards (unsurprisingly).
I've found the contributors to the other areas of Paizo's boards to be, in the main, thoughtful, amusing, helpful, and genuinely caring - which has made the boards a place I visit often, and a community I want to be a part of. I believe this behaviour is, in no small part, inspired by the Paizo staff who visit these boards regularly and display exactly those attributes. They also produce beautifully-crafted gaming materials, made with care and dedication. I'd encourage anyone who values these things to stick around.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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No matter what, the real loser of this little war is Paizo, as the zealots on each side are going to feel slighted no matter what Paizo's final decision is, with those who feel slighted dropping their subscriptions in protest.
Given that I'm not likely to play 3.5 or 4.0 anytime soon, my interest in the Pathfinder world remains in the setting itself, independent of the rules, and I'm perfectly willing to offer help to anyone who has conversion questions as long as I have the material at hand to do so.
I would tend to agree with you on this point to a degree Kassil. I would probably drop my Subs, but not in protest if the Paizo went with 4e. I wouldn't drop them straight away mind you. I would stick around for at least 1 AP and a couple of Modules (Chronicles/Companion notwithstading) to see how much of them I could actually use with 3.5. I fthe answer was alot, then I would kepp my subs, especially if it meant supporting Paizo. Either way, I would still remain a part of the comunity and continue to purchase products from their shop. Just because I personally am not happy with their decision to go 4e (if that is what they choose to do), doesn't mean I don't like Paizo as a Company, or it's Staff as People/Gamers. I like to poke a bit of fun at Mike (McArtor), but only because I like him and his work (sort of like teasing the girl you have a crush on)... err don't take that out of context there Mike; I don't have a crush on you.