No matter what, the real loser of this little war is Paizo, as the zealots on each side are going to feel slighted no matter what Paizo's final decision is, with those who feel slighted dropping their subscriptions in protest.I wouldn't say protest.
What use is a product that's written for a game you don't play? In the case of adventure modules, no that much.
I know that's the case for me.
So if they make the "wrong" decision, my subscription(s) will have to be cancelled, sure. But not in protest, but out of necessity. No hard feelings. Paizo has been far to well to us for hard feelings.
QFT!
Edit: Personal issues that recently happened to me caused me to cancel my subscriptions. I currently dont have the money to keep them. I plan on comming back once on my feet again.
If I still had my Pathfinder subscription though I would cancell if Paizo switched. Not out of protest or malice. But because they switched to a game I dont play.
Patient : Doctor, it hurts when I do this.
Doctor: Stop doing that.
Reminds me of that joke:
"Doctor, I get those backaches whenever I stick my right arm out diagonally up and out behind me, then do the same with my left arm, and then wheel them both forward."
"Then don't do it."
"How am I supposed to get into my cloak?"
There are a lot of really smart, interesting people here .....Why thank you, but you forgot "charming", "debonair", "kind", "generous".....
You forgot "humble"
As you're almost certainly well aware
Am not. I avoid those boards like a plague ever since I've been been flamed and my reports falling on deaf ears (there was one case where my report about someone obnoxious on enworld was discussed on their chat and people made fun of me because of "whining"), but I've been banned - without warning, but with a condescending comment from the mod - for something they interpreted as a personal insult against wotc and every single poster.
When even Paizo staffers are avoiding a section of their own boards because of the tone there, I'd have to say I think they should probably do something about it rather than avoiding the issue.
To throw your line back at you: "as you're almost certainly well aware..." Paizo isn't avoiding it because of pro 3.5 people, but because of people on both sides.
And so far, the 4e camp is leading on the "if you don't like my edition, shut up and go away" game here.
Again, no one is advocating censorship or banning anyone because of their opinion.
What I *am* advocating is ad hominem attacks be called out and shut down.
Really, the two aren't even close. There is no "freedom of speech" issue here. Everyone should be allowed to freely express their opinions. They shouldn't be allowed to be a!!%#%%s.
Is there a complication here I'm missing?
What, in your opinion is an ad hominem attack? I would think it is fairly narrow - a direct attack on the person rather than the person's words or point of view.
Direct rebuttals, countering a strong opinion with another strong opinion, and posts that make the reader "uncomfortable in their frankness" are not ad hominen attacks at least as far as I understand the definition. Furthermore, if a poster chooses to rely upon their person, professional experience, or reveals the methods of their thoughts as justification for their point of view in a debate, then these are also subject to discussion and even rebuttal since the OP has clearly decided to make personal issues public.
Of course, there are certainly some that feel that any post that one finds personally offensive or elicits strong emotion in the reader is an ad hominem attack. Since you are advocating for this form of moderation, please tell us what you would find acceptable and what would not be acceptable.
Person 1: I like A, B, and C about 4E.
Person 2: 4E is clearly designed for morons, children, etc.Person 2 makes not attempt to address A, B, or C. He indirectly calls Person 1 and idiot (attacking the person, not the message; an ad hominem attack). There are many threads that follow nearly this exact pattern.
An appropriate response would be: I do not like A, B, or C. Here is why: blah blah blah. Let's leave off the implicit "and you must be stupid if you disagree." That isn't strongly stating your opinion; That is being an @$$clown.
Note this cuts both ways...calling someone a "grognard" isn't an argument.
I want to say thank you to the Original Poster, BarelyCoherent, you have stated my feelings about this section of the Paizo forums much better then I could have.
I want to also tell Lisa Stevens something. I am a Paizo customer because of one thing: The message on your answering machine. The fact that your automated customer messaging system has a joke about kobalds? It's priceless! (If you have not heard it, call their customer service department. It's well worth it.) I once seriously confused your phone guy by calling the customer service line just so that my friends could hear the message.
I felt that Paizo was truely the kind of company I would love working at. The 4E section of the forum has become a betrayal of all that. It has become so bad that it is seriously hurting Paizo's reputation.
If I could reach the WotC or ENworld boards from work on my lunch break, I would not return to Paizo's boards until after 4E is out, which is a real shame because I used to really love these boards.
I don't care which side of the arguement you are one, or how correct your arguments may have been. The level of discourse here has become so steeped in bile and anger over the new edition that it has driven the people who work at Paizo out of this section of the board. It is so bad that they are considering censorsing the board to stop it. That comes form the CEO of Paizo herself.
Please think about that before you attack someone, including WotC, on this board. You may not like where 4E is going, and that is fine. I do not love everything I have heard, but we should be able to have a discussion about the new edition that does not hurt Paizo in the process.
And so far, the 4e camp is leading on the "if you don't like my edition, shut up and go away" game here.
KaeYoss, as much as I'd like to join in, I'm not. Infact I'm going to say, lets keep the finger pointing to a minimum.
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So let me get this straight. Either the OP is saying:
"You guys say nice things about 4e or I'm going to hurt your company, and through them your messageboards."
Or the OP is saying:
"I am posting a bribe to Paizo , via my patronage, to call for them to police up their message boards and make people stop saying what I don't want to hear."Is that close ? Because it's what I read in post#1 of this thread.
Thats how I read it. Also it sounds like the OP never bought a paizo product all through 3E, but now wants to buy 4E products from a company that hasn't decided to go with 4E, and threatening not to give possible future patronage to Paizo. Wierd.
I have dropped a lot of dough in Paizo's lap and every RPG decision that they have made, I have supported with my dough. Almost the day that they announced Pathfinder, I was on board and I subscribed ASAP. I have followed them and helped them with my money and my opinion(hopefully). To threaten to not buy products from a company you have not bought products from is ridiculous.Also- I have gone to WotC's boards to ask simple questions like "what spells would fit the flavor of XXX character with XXX background" and promptly had 15-20 different posters challenge if I knew how to make a spell list, if I was a lazy ba##ard for not wanting to make a list, a liar for not wanting to post my list for critique and then the thread devolved into me just getting beaten for 3 pages. Not a single moderator jumped in on those attacks even though I alerted them. Wanna know why? They didn't care. WotC's boards are notorious for the vicious, passive-aggressive, debate club tactics of the posters there. Yet the only thing the posters really respond to is if something negative is said towards the company or 4E.
That messageboard is no different, they just have a different fanbase that has a different opinion. If you share the same it is lovely, but if not, you are a target and you will be ripped up, editted and maybe booted off for expressing an opinion adverse to their own on 4E.
You threaten Paizo with not buying $100 worth of stuff, don't worry, I'll cover that lose as will everyone else who values their opinion without being editted or having to follow the herd.
I certainly won't begrudge someone for liking 4E but I hate it. I am glad that Paizo lets me display my dislike. I value that freedom and have much respect for Paizo for allowing me to display it.
Wow, people are asking "why hasn't the OP reacted" when he only posted a few hours ago? Some people don't check boards that frequently.
Let me also ask this. Why is it important to be able to wrangle about other message boards here? Why not enjoy what's here, and leave the issues at the other boards?
Turning to the gnawing question that the discussion raises, if moderation isn't the answer (and I don't agree by the way), then what is? The current solution isn't working for a statistically significant percentage of the board member population.
Civil discourse, has at its heart, two parts: being civil (in this context #7) and discourse.
No today i was only called fascist on page one of this thread. ;-)
With respect, Crocodile did not call you a fascist, he called those who moderate/control the ENworld and WotC's websites fascists.
As you're almost certainly well aware, there are some people on both the Enworld and WotC forums who are strongly anti 4E. Oddly, they seem to be able to continue posting despite this. Perhaps it's because they manage to do so in a civilised manner, without resorting to personal insults, ad hominem attacks, and repeatedly spamming threads. When even Paizo staffers are avoiding a section of their own boards because of the tone there, I'd have to say I think they should probably do something about it rather than avoiding the issue.
It's important to note these people are also thick skinned as they have to deal with personal insults and ad hominem attacks on them (at least on the WotC boards; I only occasionally skim Enworld) that have driven others away.
In addition, while Paizo staffers tend to avoid the 4e section of these forums (for now), it is common to find them posting on the rest of the forums. They are VERY friendly and available. Compare that to WotC staffers being scarce on their forums due to the hostility there.
Woooo! High-five my pessimistic spirit-brother! Plan for the worst! That way you're either prepared or pleasantly surprised.
*Returns high-five*
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Patient : Doctor, it hurts when I do this.
Doctor: Stop doing that.
If reading about other people's opinions on the upcoming edition gives you so much angst, then just stop doing it.
Problem solved.
That is not good enough. Lisa's comments are not about people leaving because of the 4E bashing. She and many of us here want the signal to be boosted and the noise to subside. She wants a return to a welcoming an cooperative community.
Ignoring the problem is not a solution.
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And this is how the WOTC boards made me feel. So where does that leave us? It left me no longer wanting to play D&D at all. I still visit about it, but now I don't buy anything at all and I haven't played for months on end. What did this attitude/feeling get me....a lot of empty hours and bitterness. I wish I had curbed my thinking better at the time. Now I found a solution that works for me and hope to be playing a RPG again soon. Allowing the very hate you and the OP are complaining about is now eating you up. Nothing positive to gain here through this for anyone involved, you or the gaming companies. Time to turn the switch from off to on.
I will admit I haven't read the rest of this thread yet but I wanted to comment on this without unduly influencing my thoughts on this matter.
I can sympathize and agree with this. My 3.5 Ptolus games haven't been quite the same. Its odd, all the arguing on this board with the draconian moderation I have seen on others has just made me sick of the whole hobby in general.
I am certain there are times when I have been antagonistic and rude. Eileen, I want to apologize for anything I have said that has offended you. I really think it all stems from fear.
I have hovered on both sides of the fence (thus contributing to arguments on both sides) but I am going to be honest, 4e scares me. For the first time in my life I truly feel like the game I love is going to pass me by. I have played the game since I was 8 years old and never in the 23 years since have I felt the game is moving past me. 4e makes me worry that it is. No one wants to feel left behind and no one wants to be told the thing they liked so much is somehow wrong.
Of course the logical side just says don't worry about. It tells me I can play whatever game I want. Sure, support might dwindle but I was always pretty good about cooking up my own stuff. But then I just get afraid of silly things like finding players again if I ever need to. So the wheel just turns.
So yes, I'm afraid. And I think that fear is what causes me to cycle between excitement for 4e and outright dislike for the change over. And this fear is infecting my 3.5 games. It is this fear that causes me to react strongly. It is a reaction I need to moderate and I think I have done a good job so far.
But I can see where all of this is affecting your game because it is doing the same thing to mine.
For all who yell about Freedom of speech an so on. Your freedom ends at that moment when you attack your opponent in a discussion personaly and not his arguments.
Uh... Pardon? That's being a jerk-face, which is still technically covered under freedom of speech last I checked.
Patient : Doctor, it hurts when I do this.
Doctor: Stop doing that.
If reading about other people's opinions on the upcoming edition gives you so much angst, then just stop doing it.
Problem solved.
That is not good enough. Lisa's comments are not about people leaving because of the 4E bashing. She and many of us here want the signal to be boosted and the noise to subside. She wants a return to a welcoming an cooperative community.
Ignoring the problem is not a solution.
Agreed.
Considering the feelings of others when posting isn't "censorship;" it's empathy. Is it possible to carry it too far? Of course. But when we're telling people that they are morons because they like something (and everyone thinks that is OK), then we have a problem.
CEO
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The fact that Paizo folks are avoiding this forum is rather remarkable (and quite disappointing) in light of the above.
I will say this, though, based on the polls, if Paizo doesn't at least have some 3.5 support after 4E comes out, then such threads were apparently a complete waste of time.
Dave:
Give us just a little more credit than that. :) If we start a thread to get your input on something, it would be rather silly to not read that thread, even if it is in the 4e forum. Of course we read those threads where we have asked for an opinion. I was just referring to the overall 4e forums.
-Lisa
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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For all who yell about Freedom of speech an so on. Your freedom ends at that moment when you attack your opponent in a discussion personaly and not his arguments.Uh... Pardon? That's being a jerk-face, which is still technically covered under freedom of speech last I checked.
To be clear, First Amendment Freedom of Speech is not involved in any way, shape, or form in these message board discussions. The First Amendment imposes a restriction the government's ability (and a few very specific government-like entities) to suppress speech. There is no protection for speech on a private forum, such as this.
Of course, if what you're saying is that we should respect the concept of Freedom of Speech and apply it to the boards, that's an entirely different kettle of fish.
Through the flower he call me fascist, because i shold go to enworld or wotc boards where the "fascits" are if i don't like the paizostyle of this board.
For all who yell about Freedom of speech an so on. Your freedom ends at that moment when you attack your opponent in a discussion personaly and not his arguments.
Suggestion: start a thread on the 4E boards that discusses some aspect of 4E without slamming 3.5. As someone who recently posted their 1000th post, I can tell you that that is the fastest way to draw fire. I recently had a thread going about why I won't be converting. Many of the pro-4E crowd said that my reason are solid and understandable. I went out of my way to make sure that nothing I said in that post could not be construed as a slam on anyone or on any company.
I have also noticed that you have not posted on any of the boards besides the 4e boards. If you're so interested in Paizo products like you say you are, why not start a thread on how XXX piece of Paizo's world might work in 4E that doesn't have a straight/simple conversion? Why not discuss the setting on the Pathfinder Chronicles forums?
I haven't read through all of the posts, so I'm sorry if I repeat already offered sentiment, but I find these boards to be far more pleasant than some other boards I've posted to.
While some posters do tend to be hyperbolic in their posts, and sometimes hit below the belt, I find that most posters are civil and mindful of others.
That said, the back-and-forth nature of A LOT of 4th edition posts can be frustrating (which is why I've hung back from the pro- and anti- 4th edition threads lately) but I don't think Paizo should take the heat for this. If anything I think the Paizo staff who have posted have managed to rise above the nonsense and have offered insights into their thought processes without attacking 4th edition, WotC and/or the fans of 3.X or 4th edition.
Until Paizo and other 3rd party publishers decide what edition they're going to run with, I expect that a lot of posters will be anxious. Their posts will reflect this and will most likely be posted in support of having the edition they support supported by Paizo. As Tom Petty says, "the waiting is the hardest part"... especially when we're waiting to see if our favorite version of the game will meet with support from their favorite 3rd party publishers.
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For all who yell about Freedom of speech an so on. Your freedom ends at that moment when you attack your opponent in a discussion personaly and not his arguments.
Respectfully, I must disagree.
Freedom of speech means you can present your opinion without being penalized (by a government). It does not allow a person to say false things. If you wanted to say mean things about my taste in games, clothes, music, hygiene, etc, that is protected by freedom of speech (again only from intervention by governments, not corporations who allow you to use their message boards). If you want to accuse me of doing horrible things to children, animals, women, etc, then you would be liable for slander/lible and cannot claim freedom of speech.
Ad hominem attacks are, in my opinion, distasteful. I do not endorse insulting a person rather than debating his position in an argument. But that does not mean that a person who has engaged in ad hominem attacks has lost their right to speak their minds.
FP
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For all who yell about Freedom of speech an so on. Your freedom ends at that moment when you attack your opponent in a discussion personaly and not his arguments.Uh... Pardon? That's being a jerk-face, which is still technically covered under freedom of speech last I checked.To be clear, First Amendment Freedom of Speech is not involved in any way, shape, or form in these message board discussions. The First Amendment imposes a restriction the government's ability (and a few very specific government-like entities) to suppress speech. There is no protection for speech on a private forum, such as this.
Of course, if what you're saying is that we should respect the concept of Freedom of Speech and apply it to the boards, that's an entirely different kettle of fish.
Beat me to it, I join in the opinion
Of course, if what you're saying is that we should respect the concept of Freedom of Speech and apply it to the boards, that's an entirely different kettle of fish.
Yeah, that one.
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For all who yell about Freedom of speech an so on. Your freedom ends at that moment when you attack your opponent in a discussion personaly and not his arguments.Uh... Pardon? That's being a jerk-face, which is still technically covered under freedom of speech last I checked.
Chrischie might not be American. 'Freedom of Speech' isn't exactly a universal thing. It's possible that posting something that isn't nice might be illegal where they live. Also what has already been pointed out, our 'freedom' to 'speak' here is exactly what Paizo allows us, no more. If they want to shut down the board entirely, we've got no legal recourse other than to say, 'well, darn!'
The example given, attacking a person instead of an argument, does suit the 'rules of debate,' but I don't think they are enforced by any legal entity. Five minutes of political discourse will verify that, since it's all about attacking the candidate and ignoring their positions! :)
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I agree. It feels like some people have joined these forums in the last few months just to stir things up, on both sides of the debate, but more on the pro-4e side than not. And in doing so they reduced the enjoyment of the whole of the messageboard here.
That would be the spindoctors at work. Hats off to the OP, brilliant job.
Let me let you in on a little secret as to why so many people are pissed off about 4E. Take a pile of money, say about $8000. Now let someone arbitrarily decide that that money is now worthless because now the curency of the land is monopoly money, and you're SOL. You would be angry. That's how much my wife an I have spent in books.I dont agree with this analogy. No one is forcing us to change editions. We can keep using those 3rd edition books for years to come (and we will).
But there is a considerable amount of presure to leave 3.5 completely unsupported and convert everything to 4E, which Wizards has already said will not be compatiable with 3.5. Which means that unless you wan to spend a buttload of time creating you own conversion, and rewriting every game, 4E becomes the only option. (I'm more than stuborn enough to make conversions.)
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I think Paizo would rather hear why they lost the sales they would have gotten from me than to have me quietly walk away and just not consider their products again. And so maybe when Paizo is considering the reaction on their forums to 4e, they might consider that some of the people who were excited and might follow them if they went to 4th ed might not be speaking up because of the sort of reception they get on this forum. I know that the atmosphere here has already cost them one customer. I doubt I'm alone.
You know, it never occurred to me until this thread started that people would not shop at Paizo because they couldn't come here and cheer for 4e. Earlier today I laughed at the idea, then I saw Lisa's posts and a few others posting about how Paizo is losing sales because people feel threatened.
So, in a sign of solidarity, I want Paizo to know that I am canceling $200 of my pending orders (please see thread in Customer Service above) because they gave even the slightest nod to those complaining here that the 4e boards are not all to their liking. Hopefully this small sign will indicate to Paizo that if they cowtow to the pro-4e crowd they will lose sales as well.
That is all, carry on.
QFT blackdragon, QFT.
Um..I have know idea what this means. Sorry, I don't text or IM.
QFT blackdragon, QFT.Um..I have know idea what this means. Sorry, I don't text or IM.
Quoted For Truth
QFT blackdragon, QFT.Um..I have know idea what this means. Sorry, I don't text or IM.
Quoted For Truth.
It means he totally agrees with you word for word.
To be clear, First Amendment Freedom of Speech is not involved in any way, shape, or form in these message board discussions.
Acknowledged. I am for the concept of free speech being applied to these boards. I want the freedom to call someone a doody poo poo head. Not every thought has value. If you start preventing some thoughts, we may miss out on some that do have value.
Yes, there may be a lot of ‘noise’ on the 4e threads. But if you start shutting it down, what happens when someone decides all your posts are ‘noise’?
Censorship is a slippery slope despite best intentions.
What, in your opinion is an ad hominem attack? I would think it is fairly narrow - a direct attack on the person rather than the person's words or point of view.
Direct rebuttals, countering a strong opinion with another strong opinion, and posts that make the reader "uncomfortable in their frankness" are not ad hominen attacks at least as far as I understand the definition. Furthermore, if a poster chooses to rely upon their person, professional experience, or reveals the methods of their thoughts as justification for their point of view in a debate, then these are also subject to discussion and even rebuttal since the OP has clearly decided to make personal issues public.
I Agree. An compared to some message boards I've been on, Paizo's has personal attacks to a minimum. But I feel that if you a bold enough to put your thoughts and ideas into a public forum, you had better be prepared to defend them if you want them to be seen as relevent.
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Go away, Eberron-jerk. You freaks disgust me!
By the way; I LOVE WoW ^-^.
P.S. Even if Paizo goes the 4E route and I'll decide against it, I'll gladly buy their adventures, knowing well that if I adapt them to 3.5, I'll have a better game experience than with most adventures from their competitors.
They are that good.
Well, I'm going to speak up, as vitriolic as it may be.
Let me begin by stating the following caveat.
Wizards of the Coast is incompetent. That is correct. Wizards of the Coast is completely and totally incompetent.
They have:
[[Excellent points]]
[Salute] Very nicely done. Well said. [/Salute]
*sigh* It has already begun.
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There is a lot here. I can't imagine this thread won't be the breaking point for the 4e board.
Awhile ago I tried to just take a break from the 4e portion of the board and discuss other topics that interested me in other parts of this fantastic community. For some reason I just kept coming back. Maybe I like train wrecks. I don't know.
In any case, I think it is wise to just step back and breathe. I am going to go read about Pathfinder, perhaps chime in on some threads in the 3.5 boards, and just forget these boards are here.
I get wound up way too easily. My emotions often get the better of me. I know I need to moderate my tone and the substance of my posts when they deal with something I have a strong connection to.
So I plan on grabbing some lunch, eat, and then head over to the other boards to read about the game I love and the fantastic support Paizo is showing it.
Keep this thread on topic.
To Those posters who expressed dissapointment in the messageboards.
You have some excellent and salient points. While I do not post frequently I have loitered for a few years now. I agree that the level of vitriol has increased and Lisa is correct in pinpointing the 4E announcement as the start.
However, after the initial shock (I probably over reacted myself)a lot of us now post less frequently as we see less interesting threads to post in. I guess what I'm trying to say is this..
If you want civil boards and interesting threads there are people out here in the paizo community who want the same. We are all guilty of not stepping forward and delivering what we want recently, for my part I appologise for my inaction. It seems to me you guys are just the sort of posters we need and want. Just like Democracy, you have to be involved to make a change. Be involved.
I hope you will stick around to have a conversation with those of us who wont flame you for loving 4E even though we personally may prefer another edition (you may even change my mind). I know several posters who love 1E and AD&D who have never, to my knowledge, been flamed so it is possible.
Yours
Elcian
Keep this thread on topic.What was the topic again?
Seriously? :-/
So it's not just the mechanics. It's the rude marketing schemes, the blatant disrespect for tradition, and the rudeness on the part of wizards, as well as their tolerance for it on their own boards, that has made me anti-4e. In fact, the mechanics, I have argued several times on the boards, will sink or swim on their own.
But whatever else this game is, they have LOST the ethical right to call it "Dungeons and Dragons."
Well said.
Freedom of speech means you can present your opinion without being penalized (by a government). It does not allow a person to say false things. If you wanted to say mean things about my taste in games, clothes, music, hygiene, etc, that is protected by freedom of speech (again only from intervention by governments, not corporations who allow you to use their message boards).
And of course one of the huge debates over "free Speech" is what that means exactly. Some people believe "you can say whatever you want". Many constitutional theorist/historians/lawyers whomever all debate the truth here. Many believe that it is only protects "you can say what you want about the government." Meaning the government can't quiet people's right to disagree with how the government is run and it's policies. It doesn't protect just saying what you want. Again this an almost constant debate.