One of the things that I have noticed with the folks with which I play DND is general apathy about 4E. I play with two non-overlapping groups totaling more than a dozen folks, and most of them know relatively little about 4E and have no real interest in finding out more. This is especially true with my oldest gaming group. This is a group of folks who played DND since first edition but drifted away during late second and came back under third. We now play 3.5E. While I read all the updates on 4E (and find alternating things I like and things I dislike about the changes), the rest of my friends just don't seem to care that much. They like 3.5E and aren't interested in really learning about 4e. They know about it (from me or from coming across discussions of it in other places they visit on the web), but they just don't seem either excited or upset. They just don't care that much. At most, I think they will take some 4e ideas and house-rule them in to our 3.5e game. Maybe there will be a total switchover at some point in the future, but it doesn't seem to be something that will take place very soon.
My question: is this experience unusual? Is everyone in your group reading the updates and news on 4E and divided into love/hate camps? Or are my friends more the norm? Reading the boards, I get the feeling that everyone has strong opinions about 4e, but posters are a select breed of course.
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My question: is this experience unusual? Is everyone in your group reading the updates and news on 4E and divided into love/hate camps? Or are my friends more the norm? Reading the boards, I get the feeling that everyone has strong opinions about 4e, but posters are a select breed of course.
I play with two regular groups.
The first group is my home Greyhawk group. They could care less about 4e as well and pay no attention to the new announcements. They're having fun with 3.5 and won't be switching.
The second group is the local RPGA group. They're obviously much more involved since 4e means the end of our beloved Living Greyhawk campaign. Out of this group of just under 20 folks, there's only 2 strong pro-4e guys. There's also only 3 strong anti-4e guys and another 2 that just can't switch to a new edition for monetary reasons. That leaves over half the group in the "wait-and-see" crowd. And all of us try to keep right up on the latest news on 4e.
My team is looking forward to 4e like Statesiders look forward to local elections in Timbuktu. Barely heard of it and not interested (especially after one asked if it would use 3e stuff and I told them WotC doesn't advise us to.)
Of the people I game with regularly (around 10 people), none are really interested. A few would play it if someone else ran the game, but most likely would not by the books. Since I am one of the regular GMs, this is one of the reasons I am not switching to 4e.
The one guy I knew who was pro 4e has since become anti 4e due to the some of the changes. He is currently hyped about Iron Heroes after I showed him the rules. The feel of the book is what he wanted (lower magic and more emphasis on the character) and it is fully 3.5e.
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My question: is this experience unusual? Is everyone in your group reading the updates and news on 4E and divided into love/hate camps? Or are my friends more the norm? Reading the boards, I get the feeling that everyone has strong opinions about 4e, but posters are a select breed of course.
No strangeness at all. Me and my players (from two gaming groups) are pretty much in the same situation, but it's only me who quasi-regularly posts in various forums out of 14 different people.
Moreover, after an interested start about all things 4E (but with no intention to switch), I'm drifting towards boredom regarding this matter. Probably because I've realized that it'll not fit snugly my gaming tastes - too many changes about game balance or house rules would be needed to retro-engineer the 4E ruleset - so I'm fine leaving it to players who can appreciate those rules and having fun with them.
You play 4E and you're happy? Fine for me.
I play 3.X and I'm happy. Fine too.
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My question: is this experience unusual? Is everyone in your group reading the updates and news on 4E and divided into love/hate camps? Or are my friends more the norm? Reading the boards, I get the feeling that everyone has strong opinions about 4e, but posters are a select breed of course.
No : judging from the players around me :
Most don't care. They want a fun time around their friends.
The ones that made some research about it are in the hate camp.
Except for three RPGA rules lawyers that are in the love camp (that's out of some 25+ players). but they probably signed for playtesting just so that they can rub their rules knowledge in our face once again, and we don't care over much if we lose them.
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I'm mostly in the apathy crowd. I have no real need to change. Am happy with 3.5 and have very few house rules. I am not completely against 4E and have been waiting for the sale to be made, for the designers to show me a compelling reason to change and so far I'm just not seeing it. In fact its the opposite. I'm seeing that with 4e, I'm going to need houserules. I doubt I want to use the game as presented.
My question: is this experience unusual? Is everyone in your group reading the updates and news on 4E and divided into love/hate camps? Or are my friends more the norm? Reading the boards, I get the feeling that everyone has strong opinions about 4e, but posters are a select breed of course.
Out of my weekend group, I'm the 1 guy who's anti-4th edition based upon the the information I've gathered about it and WotC's DI.
4 other guys are pretty neutral about it, not bothering themselves with the details and waiting for the books to come out before forming an opinion. We play Iron Heroes as one of our regular games, so 2 of these 4 guys are resigned to the "fact" that it'll play more like Iron Heroes than 3.X.
1 other guy hates change. He hated the switch from 2nd edition to 3rd edition UNTIL the rest of us won him over. He hates 4th edition, sight unseen, and wouldn't bother reading up about.
Only 1 of the 6 of us has ANY interest in subscribing to DI....
Hope that answers your question. Seems like our groups are somewhat similar.
Out of the people I've talked to, no one's really that interested. Of course, the several hundred dollars worth of books and minis - maybe close to a thousand dollars - who knows - will not easily be replaced. So, the consensus is: it won't. There's no need for a 4th edition in our eyes. No need to start over when we have years and years of DnD left to do. I mean, we haven't even tried some of the other great systems out there -Blue Rose, Iron Heroes, Castles and Crusades - or campaigns like Ptolus. We average a year a campaign, give or take - so I can't see any change any time soon, even if I run a game and play in a second. In addition, as an over 2 dozen year gamer - I'm not enamored with what I'm seeing anyway. It's not the next step, it's a new step - and one I'm sure wasn't intended for the long-timers like me anyway.
Ive quizzed two of my friends on it. Opening a portal to baator and throwing all developers current work for 4th Ed into the hells with a stern "don't mess with our damned hobby" is pretty much the feeling given off. They will not be using 4th ed and consider it a sick joke.
They also feel that 3rd editiion just needed some changes that would have worked with current lore, more adding in common homebrew type stuff. Also they are not willing to start over when they have already bought a lot of 3.x books. They where expecting a gap like that of AD&D and 3.x to be honest.
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The demise of the Magazines got me involved in the boards in the first place. I was checkng the website regularly to find news of what was coming. I was on the boards both here and at WotC. So, I have been looking at the news and been following 4e the whole time.
My group on the other hand does not really care. I tell them some change and they yawn. There is only one player who pays any attention at all.
I run a game with nine players and play in a game with five players. I don't think the smaller group would even know about 4e unless I mentioned it to them. They pretty much use the core books and leave it at that. The larger group is aware of 4e, checks news about it every so often, but is largely apathetic about it. If I switch my game to 4e, they'll follow. If I don't, they'll be perfectly happy continuing with 3.5. Personally, I was very curious following the announcement and the stated emphasis on streamlining the system and roleplaying. Since then, I've actually grown quite apathetic about 4e based on everything "official" I've seen. At this point, I'm actually more tempted to switch to something like True20 or one of the other oft-mentioned alternatives than 4e.
IME, there are two camps:
Camp 1: Those that actively hang out on RPG message boards and those that DM, hate it (I'm sure there are those that love it, but I have yet to encounter them).
Camp 2: The casual gamers (those that are leveling up their character when you arrive to game because they didn't take 20 minutes out of their life to do it during the week) know enough about the game to know its not for them. So yea, apathy is a pretty good description of them.
ours is a small group just 5 people. im the dm and only one that posts online ..but a 3 dont care and see no need and one just said no when he frist heared of 4e.. i was wait and see back then and asked him why he siad i like what where useing i dont see a point in learning a new system so no. works for me
Of my group, I'm excited. One is mostly favorable but doesn't like how his 3.x books will become obsolete with 4.0 (and he has spent a lot of money). I think another player is "wait-and-see" and the rest just don't care that much. I think in my group it really depends on the DM and what he feels like playing, and they're just not that concerned with what system it is.
I believe there is far more apathy for 4th Edition than anyone accounts for.
In my group, I am the only one who gives a damn about 4th one way or the other. And while I don't blindly accept everything spouted from WotC employees, I wouldn't even call my self anti-4th Edition. At least not in the stricter sense.
But since I question the logic, and sometimes the rational, of just about everything we have heard to date, I'll accept the "4th Edition Hater" tag if it makes it easier for others to ignore any intelligence that might be hidden in my posts.
The second group is the local RPGA group. They're obviously much more involved since 4e means the end of our beloved Living Greyhawk campaign.
Interested point and maybe no one has noticed on its deep: RPGA will switch so all of those who stick with 3.5 won't be able to participate in any RPGA event unless they switch too.
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Interested point and maybe no one has noticed on its deep: RPGA will switch so all of those who stick with 3.5 won't be able to participate in any RPGA event unless they switch too.
The second group is the local RPGA group. They're obviously much more involved since 4e means the end of our beloved Living Greyhawk campaign.
If the living campaign for the Forgotten Realms is as good as Living Greyhawk then lots and lots of people will be switching to 4E whether or not they play it at home.
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If the living campaign for the Forgotten Realms is as good as Living Greyhawk then lots and lots of people will be switching to 4E whether or not they play it at home.
Interested point and maybe no one has noticed on its deep: RPGA will switch so all of those who stick with 3.5 won't be able to participate in any RPGA event unless they switch too.
The basis of this statement is flawed. It presupposes that Living Campaign members all play for the same reason. From my understanding of the living Greyhawk community, one segment plays to be in a Living Campaign, and an additional segment plays mainly because it is Greyhawk.
Group 2 will not be served by Living Realms, and likely WILL not be switching to 4ed because of their RPGA campaign.
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I've encountered three different groups, and different opinions in each.
Group 1 is my group back in Windsor. Out of 7 people, myself and another follow what's happening. Another one is dead set against it no matter what (He was a hardcore gnome player, I wonder why he doesn't like it). The rest don't care and don't care to change unless they have to.
Group 2 is the group up here where I'm living right now, in the bitter cold middle of Ontario. They honestly don't care and just started playing last year. They'll stay 3.5 if they keep playing, and don't really know anything about 4th edition.
The most interesting group I've found was south of here, in Aurora (isn't it great I point out these places like people know and care where they are?). Basically, when I brought it up, the store owner mentioned that he was annoyed that his stock was now obsolete, but otherwise thought 3.5 was bad and needed to be replaced. I started to ask him what he liked about the changes he had heard, and he mentioned some. When I mentioned some points (such as the changes in saves, the changes in abilities and the changes in races), he was oblivious. It was especially painful when he viewed the stat card for the demon, noting quite a few points that he didn't like. I felt bad myself, as if I had told him that the Easter Bunny and Santa didn't exist. Oh, and his parents hate him too.
Kia Ora from New Zealand...
5 guys in our group, 2 regular DMs, currently 1 running AoW at the moment and it is taking a while (2-3 hours, once per week).
4 of us are wait and see, we're interested in rules and are intrigued what the final thing will look like. But we're all very happy with 3.5 and aren't considered changing in a hurry.
1 just built a new house and is not spending any money on non-essentials at the moment.
None of us are bothered about changes to fluff as none of us are hard core about that stuff, playing either homebrew or published material as written mostly.
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@Marnak - In your December post you said, "I will buy 4E materials when they are published." I feel the publishers of this so-called next edition are counting on your players to feel generally unbiased. Unlike other edition releases, this is an hisoric moment when we need players of the game to become very informed. I believe that company is counting on the masses not saying anything, not speaking up.
Gamers Don't Let Gamers Fall Into 4E Apathy!
I believe the PAIZO fans that post on these threads are very informed, and many feel they need to be because some heavy handed propaganda is occurring (a la change-justifications found in Races and Classes) in hopes of persuading the players of dungeons and dragons to believe that their new product is "the same game." It will be sold as Dungeons & Dragons but it is not the dungeons and dragons many have played for 30+ years.
To be sure, the six players who've participated in my recent weekly 1.5 year campaign are informed, and they echo the sentiments that Wizards of the Coast have lost touch with their customers. These six players were disgusted with the youtube video from Gen Con—all six players felt Slavisec looked like a nervous liar. Still grieving the loss of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, we then all began experiencing a series of dislikable "leaks" from the WOTC ivory tower about just how much the new game will be a departure from the game we enjoy. To the point of this thread, armed with information it was just impossible to remain apathetic in any way.
For those who think this is about love/hate—please please think again. This is not about irrational *hate*. WOTC owns a trademark game name, but they don't own dungeons and dragons any more than the NFL owns the sport of football. I urge you, Marnak, to inform your players about this hijack of our traditions. The Great Wheel exists, eladrins are not elves, dragonborn are not core, tieflings are far more discrete in appearance, gnomes exist, elves live for a thousand years, 1000 years have not passed in the Forgotten Realms, etc. As fans of the game we should have an opinion, because any "4E Apathy" is a sin of omission.
It is a shame that players have been put into this situation by that company, but we must stay informed, continue these thread discussions, and share our views (yes, Crosswired, I respect your right to have a different opinion).
Those who stay informed have a duty to inform our gaming groups about what is happening in our industry! In every case, fans of dungeons and dragons and its traditions cannot and should not allow "4E Apathy" to set in. I believe that may be just what WOTC is banking on.
Pax Veritas: I am a player in both campaigns (though I have been a DM in the past), so it is not up to me about the system that we play. However, what I meant my post to indicate is that my campaigns ARE NOT going to change to 4E anytime soon. The DMs and the players for the most part are apathetic, which means that they will not change to the new system. I don't have to fight them on this. They aren't going to change, and it has nothing to do with all of the things you list about 4E. They simply feel that 3.5E works fine enough. We are having fun. Why learn a new system and make a big change? They don't hate 4E. They don't care enough to find out if it is a good system or not. I don't think 4E apathy is good for WoTC. I think the opposite. I think 3E was a big success because there was a genuine demand for a change after the decline of TSR and all of the problems with late 2E.
Finally, yes I will buy the 4E books, but this doesn't mean that I am going to start playing 4E. I just want to see how folks have put things together. I enjoy reading game systems that I don't get a chance to play (like Iron Heroes) and 4E may fall into this category. I have little doubt that some of the things in 4E will be good and worth house-ruling into our campaign. In fact, I have already suggested one (static spot numbers instead of "roll spot" everytime a monster shows up) that has received group approval. I am not a 4E hater at all, yet I don't see myself playing 4E for a while. While I might buy the core books, I doubt I will buy the adventures or the splat books if I am not playing the game. This is what I think should worry WoTC.
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Honestly, it's yet to come up in my groups. We're too much into the game to get into side conversations.
That said, I can speak of my personal opinion: Distrust. I honestly don't like how 4e is not a revision but a remake. It's beyond rules. It's changing the universe and the history of the universe as well. I am interested in house rules. I am reluctant in switching rules ... unless it's THAT good.
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Group 2 will not be served by Living Realms, and likely WILL not be switching to 4ed because of their RPGA campaign.
Yes, but you forget that there were plenty of Living City players that gave a pass on Living Greyhak. Fans of the Realms will fill the gap (and then some) of anyone that leaves because they dropped Greyhawk.
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My group consists of 5 players, 1 is interested, 3 are all about 3.5, as their collections, like mine are pretty large, (almost as large as mine). I'm against it, but I'm going to sunder 4e of all it's decent ideas, like the whole weapon specific bonuses for fighters, that's interesting...but the general mechanics I've seen so far are horrid. I dislike the per encounter mechanics, but I think changing some spell durations to encounter might be OK, as it reduce the book-keeping.
Oh I might play it, but I am not DMing it...or buying it...but then again I haven't even played 3.5, only DMed it...so go figure when that's gonna happen.
I also feel that the ENTIRE 4e system is a push from above in Hasbro...I have worked for Corporations, and I can smell the stink of the greedy CFO in the background like Emperor Palpatine...
Is everyone in your group reading the updates and news on 4E and divided into love/hate camps? Or are my friends more the norm?
In my group, it seems that the majority are apathetic. There is one guy in particular who is very interested in 4e, and then there's me. At this point, I'm pretty dismayed by what I've seen of 4e.
Of my current and past players that keep in touch, we have 1 strong anti (aside from me), 2 general dislike (videogameyness stated as reason), 1 vague dislike (could swing the other way though), a couple of utter apathy (What? They're doing a 4E?), and 3 I haven't polled. I suspect one player may actually like the rules changes because he's the type to always identify and press the dominant strategy as well as complaining about having to rest after blowing his spells in the first encounter. (Note: I had suspended my campaign a few months back to to increasing schedule conflicts and a full-time job and half-time grad school, so there has been little D&Ding among the groups--and most of the others who are actively gaming are playing Role Master RMSS and/or Legendary Quest.)
In the group I'm playing in, we have 1 strong anti- (me), 1 fairly strong anti-, one more anti than pro (he's a Living Greyhawk player) and I'm guessing 3 wait-and-sees (the gaming store owner and two of his staff members). I know one of the other staff members not in this game is very pro precisely because it will have a more video game-like feel. Most of the players are old-timers that go back to at least early 2E, and at least 4 of us are real old-timers going back to early 1E or earlier.
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Group 2 will not be served by Living Realms, and likely WILL not be switching to 4ed because of their RPGA campaign.Yes, but you forget that there were plenty of Living City players that gave a pass on Living Greyhak. Fans of the Realms will fill the gap (and then some) of anyone that leaves because they dropped Greyhawk.
You are most definitely correct about the Living City players that skipped LG. However, your statement assumes that they skipped LG because it was Greyhawk and NOT because of the edition change from 2ed to 3ed, or because they preferred a single city to an interactive continent.
From looking at many of your pro 4ed arguments, it appears clear to me that you are allowing your personal optimism to tinge your understanding of the situation. Consequently you are too quick to brush away other peoples' concerns as griping or as inconsequential.
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I've experienced the same thing. Most people I game with don't know much about 4th edition, and don't care learn anything about 4th edition. One of them said something like, "Man, I was just getting the hang of 3.5, and now they are doing 4th edition?" He's the kind that doesn't like to fork over money for new books that often, so I know he was thinking that the new edition is just another way to separate him from his money. To be honest, I almost wish I dodn't know as much about 4th edition as I do, because I know enough to know that it isn't really going to be D&D and is saddens me.
My question: is this experience unusual?
I think this is close to my players. They were pretty blunt, though: "We're not buying new books, and we're not learning a new game." So, that was their minimum criteria. They know next to nothing about 4e itself, and they don't seem to care to know that much.
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My question: is this experience unusual?I think this is close to my players. They were pretty blunt, though: "We're not buying new books, and we're not learning a new game." So, that was their minimum criteria. They know next to nothing about 4e itself, and they don't seem to care to know that much.
I don't want to spend money on 4e merely because I've sunk so much money into 3.x! To my right we see an entire bookshelf full of 3.x (and a few older) books that are still very useful and very fun.
Everyone in my circle of gamers is of the same mind. We've made this huge commitment to the game, not just in money but in time. There's still a lot of distance left in our books, we're still having lots of fun with the current edition of the game, and we don't see any reason to move on.
I kinda hope, for y'all that move on to the next edition, that WotC doesn't inundate you with the volume of books that it did for 3.x. I seem to remember them saying something about not doing that when they bought out TSR way back in the day...
I think I agree on the general apathy people are seeing. This is bad for WotC - a new version should be something I feel excited about. I think there are good ideas being presented (and not so good ones) with 4.0 but it just feel like something I want to jump out and buy.
I think some people feel burned by 3.5.
I think some people feel 4.0 is too soon coming (I generally think this - a 2009 or 2010 release might have been more appropriate).
The core audience has aged 8 years since 3.0 came out. I'm in my late 30s now and have been gaming since the early '80s. I thought 2nd edition needed some real improvement and 3.0 gave that to me in spades. But now my availability to play is much lower.
I agree with people on the I have X thousands of dollars invested in 3.x (and older) books, miniatures and other game products. Probably more than I'd ever really be able to use if I played weekly for the next 25 years. There's only so much space in the house and money in the bank. I think for all the great features of OGL/D20 those great options meant I spent a lot more (and have a lot more invested) with 3.x than I ever did before.
All of the people I've gamed with with any frequency all find the 3.5 rules very much "good enough" and know them well that it doesn't hamper play, other than the grapple rules now and again :-)
L
We're mostly in the apathy crowd...
One of my players is angry about the money investment, but he'd be willing to buy a PHB.
Others just laugh at 4th edition. The running gag when any time we question what can be done in a turn action is, "Well when 4th Edition fixes EVERYTHING we won't have to worry about this!" That's mockery of how the Edition was marketed. I get a definite sense that they feel patronized, even if they're curious about it on some level.
We're mostly in the apathy crowd...
Others just laugh at 4th edition. The running gag when any time we question what can be done in a turn action is, "Well when 4th Edition fixes EVERYTHING we won't have to worry about this!" That's mockery of how the Edition was marketed. I get a definite sense that they feel patronized, even if they're curious about it on some level.
I understand this sentiment. I was very upset myself, and thus have taken a long break from gaming. Now that resentment is turning into laughter, which as mean as it sounds, has been directed at WOTC. They have become kind of the running joke with my gaming group. Whether it is appropriate or not, I'm not going to say, it is what it is!
I even took my favorite blonde joke and rewrote it to fit 4th edition.
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I've seen no interest whatsoever from my group. I think the only way they'd switch is if I forced them, and then our game might just die instead of switching. I think it probably sums the opinion across my table up by saying that we do not see the need for the new edition. I'd only force them to change if I could no longer find 3.5 adventure material, and that point seems a long way off. For now, I'm happy padding my adventure stack with as much Golarion as I can buy. If the switch happens here at Paizo, I'll probably be getting into the business of converting back to 3.5, hoping that it would be less work than writing my own stuff from scratch. If it's not, I may have to say goodbye to Golarion as well.
I guess only time will tell. We don't discuss the new edition much at our game table because there just doesn't seem to be any carrot there. It's all stick.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I've directed apathy I guess.
I'm not interested in 4.e, and don't trust WotC with the SRD and OGL for 4.e.
I am mad at a) how the marketing is being done and b) how the worlds are being done.
I've this image of an Elan, having plane travelled for years, coming back to Chondath or the wasteland they're making it in 4.e and saying "You maniacs! You blew it up! Damn you! Damn you all to hell!"
Edit: Forgot, none of us are interesting in learning the new system. I've said it before. I want to buy a house and 4.x seems a good place to get off the merry-go-round. One former player is all psyched about 4/e, at least last time I checked. I don't know if his fevor has cooled.
My group isn't really too interested yet, but I attribute that chiefly to the fact that the release is still so far off.
Since my husband and I are the DMs, so whatever game we decide to run is what they play. We game inside our FLGS, and supporting the store is one of our goals (a goal we decided on ourselves, by the way, not one required by the store owners), so we intend to switch to the new edition if at all possible. We're taking a break from D&D right now - my husband is running a Hero game, which is good since that company is currently selling game books (which, sadly, WotC is not). That way, we can still try to support the store.
I expect that when 4E comes out, the group'll get a lot more interested. We (husband and I) will buy the core books, run a sample adventure or two, and at that point, I expect everyone will be willing to play the new game and will start ordering their own books. If they don't like it, we can keep going with Hero or look for some other game that's currently in print. But I'm already quite enthusiastic based on what I've seen in the recent previews, and don't expect any problems "selling" the group on 4E being a good move for us.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I agree. Outside of me (who is against 4E), all of the players in my group (8 of us) either aren't aware a new edition is coming, or don't really care that it is coming. The important thing to all of us is that we keep playing, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
We're all pretty happy with the 3.5 ruleset, so I doubt we'll be switching over any time soon.
I guess there is something to this apathy. The folks I´m gaming with don´t care (one group still plays 2e, the gropup I DM just plays 3.5 and likes it (I guess), and they probably won´t bother to learn a new game). I myself will just wait and see what 4e is. I guess I will buy the core books some time, but not immediately - I will wait for the second printing without all the bugs ;-) So, yes some apathy set in - probably bad news for WotC.
Stefan
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We're mostly in the apathy crowd...
One of my players is angry about the money investment, but he'd be willing to buy a PHB.
Others just laugh at 4th edition. The running gag when any time we question what can be done in a turn action is, "Well when 4th Edition fixes EVERYTHING we won't have to worry about this!" That's mockery of how the Edition was marketed. I get a definite sense that they feel patronized, even if they're curious about it on some level.
being from a rather tech - savy college group.. some are saying that they'll play once there are torrents of the core books available, and one wants to see how long it would take him to hack the DI once it's "complete"(he says that he estimates 45 minutes unless they drastically change security before that point).
my other two groups from home don't really care (these are the ones I would prefer to have switch so I can get them out of the power creep of the splat books.... oh wait that won't work)
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I know I'm not apathetic. I'm downright antagonized. I've had my bouts of 'well, so what', but mostly I think 'What a pain. I know I'm not converting, but how am I going to convince Paizo to stick with me and 3.5'.
So, I hope that 4th edition has a quick and ignomious end, and based on the faiulre they design a 5th edition for 3-4 years down the road that will be a real improvement over 3.x.