I'm choking on a sock...what ever you do...don't pull it out.
Gagged order
Bring on the Id!
...I'd argue that in this case, those "evil pirated" versions generate [FUTURE] revenue for them, because people who otherwise couldn't have had a look at the book - and therefore wouldn't have bought the book - will now buy it after trying it...
I added a word in brackets above. And in fact this is the case for me.
This is the position Microsoft has taken since Mr. Shiny was in diapers (that was what, when you were about 8-15 years old?), and there is good evidence to show that piracy has helped them in their conquest of the market. Microsoft is still very soft on piracy in developing countries because they believe themselves to be creating future customers, and are preventing alternative systems from ascending by allowing their IP to be violated.
Now this is a big stretch to compare to WotC, but it does have it's truths, here and there, and I certainly do think that those who loudly decry piracy by guessing statistics (often bloating them beyond recognition) are not really approaching the matter rationally.
In fact, right now in China, D&D is experiencing a staggering increase in player base PRECISELY BECAUSE the gamers have pirated the rules. And one day, if WotC plays its cards right, these people will buy their rule books. But they need to be careful, because in a place where piracy is easy, people don't pay for low quality crap.
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This is the position Microsoft has taken since Mr. Shiny was in diapers (that was what, when you were about 8-15 years old?), and there is good evidence to show that piracy has helped them in their conquest of the market. Microsoft is still very soft on piracy in developing countries because they believe themselves to be creating future customers, and are preventing alternative systems from ascending by allowing their IP to be violated.
I like Microsoft because they're less soulless than other soulless corporations.
And yeah, I'm younger than a lot of the other Lords of the Boards, but that doesn't make me immature. I WANT MY G&@*$~N MOMMY! ;}
This is the position Microsoft has taken since Mr. Shiny was in diapers (that was what, when you were about 8-15 years old?), and there is good evidence to show that piracy has helped them in their conquest of the market. Microsoft is still very soft on piracy in developing countries because they believe themselves to be creating future customers, and are preventing alternative systems from ascending by allowing their IP to be violated.I like Microsoft because they're less soulless than other soulless corporations.
And yeah, I'm younger than a lot of the other Lords of the Boards, but that doesn't make me immature. I WANT MY G&$$!#N MOMMY! ;}
You want a mummy?
I WANT MY G*~%%*N MOMMY! ;}You want a mummy?
Someone called?
Moreover you should be aware that speaking ill of someone's second language grammar is a low blow.
I was unaware that English is your second language. I do apologize, and the language barrier may explain the miscommunication.
(one of) The problem(s) with the internet is that many people for whom English is a first language use far worse spelling and grammar than yourself. As a result, incorrect grammar and spelling do not automatically suggest a non-native speaker.
Also, I would like to congratulate you on your bilinguialism. I am terrible with languages and I assure you that if I tried to pick up a second language I would not do nearly as well as you have.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4
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Have you used this book? How did you use it?I would appreciate any input about your own experience using the book, thanks.
I'll bite, because I have a certain (perhaps unfounded) suspicion that anyone who plays D&D will, if given the opportunity, do the right thing and pay for any book that they use.
And I most certainly use my copy of BoVD. Heck, I referenced the thing earlier tonight - one of the PCs for my 3.X Planescape game is an escaped harem-slave of Graz'zt, on the run from the long arm of the Abyss, playing Demon Lords against Archdevils with rumors of valuable "Dark Secrets of Azzagrat" and generally making life dreadful for his fellow players.
The BoVD has quick, interesting info on the various Lower Planes arranged in a way that I can quickly access . . . and so much more! The BoVD is full of churning, horrid evil: some of it WAY over the top, a sort of mad, cackling, out-of-this-world mega-malevolence that makes the bad-guys from "Power Rangers" seem sane and well-adjusted; some of it a more subtle, creep-ifying evil that hits a little too darn close to home.
That's good.
Yes, the Book has everything: it has the Spark Hunters, a group of six pillar-of-heaven-shaking CR 22 advanced uber-Hamatula Ranger/Mortal Hunters who serve the raw will of Asmodeus and presumably scour planets clean of life on the weekends; it has a picture on page 91 that actually made me mildly nauseous, because I'd never seen something QUITE like that in a D&D book before and wasn't ready for it.
That's, in fact, GREAT.
In fact, there's one spell in that book that has served as the mystery-crux of TWO campaigns: spell-use so clever that I fell for it and immediately re-used it.
Heck, it's so clever that I'm going to put in spoilers.
Mind you, that's DRAIN, not damage. You don't heal that back, brother.
Yeah, it's basically the worst spell ever.
But here's the kicker: it's not an illusion spell. Or a transmutation.
It's a frigging Necromancy spell. Go reread the description on true seeing. By my reading of the effect, true seeing doesn't work on consume likeness.
The coolest part? The caster of consume likeness loses the effect if he/she takes damage. There's nothing quite as jarring as having the party patron who has been proven, via true seeing, to be a normal human suddenly shift into an Ultraloth or shape-shifted Deep Dragon when he gets stabbed.
That's the sort of moment that makes a campaign.
My advice? The Book of Vile Darkness is WELL worth the price of admission.
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Have you used this book? How did you use it?
I ran a Scarred Lands campaign based in Hollowfaust, a free city run by predominantly lawful and neutral necromancers. Stuff from the BoVD turned out to be useful to represent the sorts of things that even a city run by people who animate the dead in the pursuit of knowledge and power would find unacceptable (such as trafficking with demons or addicting people to drugs).
I was so taken by the name 'Misery's Passage' that I even used it to name a former Orc stronghold-turned-township that the players ended up working out of for a time, dealing with Orcish, Asaatthi and Werewolf attacks. The Asaatthi even used drugs, throwing spells and missile attacks from behind a front line of slaves that they drugged into a berserk state and sent against annoying intruders.
The book also inspired a few Feats, Magic Items and Spells that showed up in the campaign, such as Deformity (teeth) giving a bite attack to humans willing to file their teeth, Plague Summons [Metamagic] that allowed a disease-happy Druid to imbue all of the animals he summoned via Summon Nature's Ally with Filth Fever, a Garrote of Ending (Death Knell when used to kill someone, but it stores the energy and it can be called up at any point later as a free action by anyone wearing it as a neckslot item), a magical always hot Branding Iron that allowed an evil Cleric of the god of Tyranny to intimidate and 'punish' those he had branded, Poison Bolt (spell that uses one dose of poison as a material component, firing it as a bolt of liquid that strikes as a medium range ranged touch attack and working as a contact poison, regardless of it's normal type), etc.
As the Scarred Lands setting has an active god of Tyranny who is pro-slavery, a cannibalistic faith serving a power of Gluttony, a sect of Druids who serve a god-like entity of Disease and another who serves a 'goddess' of Venom, etc. these sorts of things seemed particularly appropriate. A Realms-set game could just as easily make use of these concepts, attaching them to Bane, Malar, Myrkul and / or Talona, instead of Chardun, Gaurak, Chern and Mormo.
Gagged order
Never heard of it, must be from some funky 2e material. Something from Planescape maybe?
So, I have a couple questions here, and I guess I need some background information.
Does WotC offer their books in PDF form? If so, where does one purchase them?
What's the general interpretation of fair use around here?
Am I seen to be doing something wrong if I go online and download a PDF version of a book I already own, and if so, why?
On another note, I see some here that are decrying the downloading of PDF versions of D&D books, but advocate the borrowing of the book, or viewing of a book at a retail location.
How is this any different than downloading the PDF, previewing the book, and if deciding not to buy it, chucking the PDF?
(Nevermind the fact that a bunch of tards putting their grubby mitts all over the books on the shelf, cracking the spines, wrinking the pages, etc. being the main reason I don't buy anything but newly arrived books from my FLGS, and order them online.)
Nuh-uh. Ain't gittin' into this agin. Nope. No way, Jose. Bye-motherf$@~in'-bye. Ain't gittin' worked up 'bout bygones. Let 'em be, homey.
Boom.
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Did my post get deleted? Whyfor?
Wow this page is FUBAR
Is there a huge, and I mean blank space above just after Id Vicious' post?
Hrmm.
OK, well, hopefully it wasn't deleted for some violation or something, and I'll post it again.
Was kinda curious about a couple things regarding these PDFs, and the general attitude about them.
First off, does WotC sell PDFs of their books, and if so, where does one buy these?
Next, what's your opinion of fair use, in relation to the books you own?
I'll freely admit that I don't see an issue with me downloading a PDF of a book that I've bought - and virtually all of them were purchased new, not used.
I see some decrying the downloading of a PDF for any reason, but the same people suggest borrowing a copy, or paging through a store copy to determine if you want to purchase the book. How is this any different than downloading a PDF to peruse, and, if deciding not to buy it, chucking that PDF?
I don't have an issue paying a nominal fee for an official PDF (usually going to be a LOT better quality than some of the crap out there), but, like I said, if I own the print copy of the book, I don't see my download of the PDF version as any kind of theft - it's simply an alternative way for me to utilize what I've already payed for, much like making MP3s of my legally purchased CDs, so that I can listen to them on my MP3 player, or condense several CDs to one, so that I can put more music in my car, without having to change them out all the time.
I heard that in 4th edition posts don't disappear.
They just go to the Postwild.
Or is that the Shadowpage?
I get them confused.
Did Bizarro not hear him name? Me not gone for a while because I not say Orrazib on accident, and me not forget that me have another dimension to go to when not saying name backwards.
So me not go to the Shadowpage for a while. Or was am that not the Postfell. Me am never getting them confused.
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Did Bizarro not hear him name? Me not gone for a while because I not say Orrazib on accident, and me not forget that me have another dimension to go to when not saying name backwards.
So me not go to the Shadowpage for a while. Or was am that not the Postfell. Me am never getting them confused.
Actually, you did just say it on accident by saying it when you stated you didn't say it on accident.
So, I have a couple questions here, and I guess I need some background information.
Does WotC offer their books in PDF form? If so, where does one purchase them?
DriveThruRPG or some place.
And those PDFs are a joke: They cost the same as the print versions. No, let me rephrace that: They cost the same as the books are supposed to cost according to witzards - which means they're more expansive then the real books (since you can get discounts for the books)
What's the general interpretation of fair use around here?Am I seen to be doing something wrong if I go online and download a PDF version of a book I already own, and if so, why?
I'd personally see nothing wrong with those scanned versions you sometimes find on... questionable sources, but they might think differently.
And those PDFs are a joke: They cost the same as the print versions. No, let me rephrace that: They cost the same as the books are supposed to cost according to witzards - which means they're more expansive then the real books (since you can get discounts for the books)
Yes and you should add to that cost ink, paper and hardbounding what is about ten more Dollars to have a print and a digital version.
I think that legally and ethically a PDF version should cost no more than 50% of the print version since the authors have invested only work but not even a penny in production costs and so no financial risk at all.|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4
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I think that legally and ethically a PDF version should cost no more than 50% of the print version since the authors have invested only work but not even a penny in production costs and so no financial risk at all.
Ehh, I don't think that we can get into a "legality and ethics" discussion here, especially with a hard and fast number like 50%. Honestly, once we get into concerns of time-and-place utility and the question of supply & demand, I think that anyone who sells anything not directly related to immediate human survival is pretty much within their rights to charge whatever they see fit.
Just as I am within my rights to seek a different product at a better price.
As for "not a penny in production costs" - well, there have to be SOME costs associated with PDF printing. Maybe not a LOT, but certainly a start-up, and that involves financial risk.
(If I am wrong, please: someone contact me so that I can start printing all of my stuff on PDF for free)
Now: I, myself, do not like digital versions of things that I read.
I like books.
Books that fit on a shelf. That I can read in the bathroom. That I can crack open at the dinner table. That I can read on an airplane without worrying that my laptop isn't plugged in or that it might cause the plane to crash. That won't be inaccessible if my roommate spills a soda on it.
I want to use my books at the table-top. I want to stick sticky-notes in them and draw on them and makes notes in the margins with pencil and have a big crack in the spine so that it always opens to "Drow".
I love my books, and I do not foresee ever, EVER going to PDF for my gaming needs.
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I think in a free market there should no controls on the prices of rpg PDFs, other than the basic principle of supply and demand. If customers are not willing to shell the money for a product then the makers of the product would either: lower their price or prepare to write off their product as a loss.
I like books.
Books that fit on a shelf. That I can read in the bathroom. That I can crack open at the dinner table. That I can read on an airplane without worrying that my laptop isn't plugged in or that it might cause the plane to crash. That won't be inaccessible if my roommate spills a soda on it.
I want to use my books at the table-top. I want to stick sticky-notes in them and draw on them and makes notes in the margins with pencil and have a big crack in the spine so that it always opens to "Drow".
I love my books, and I do not foresee ever, EVER going to PDF for my gaming needs.
Oh, by no means would I *EVER* trade my books for a PDF, but I do find them handy.
That said, they're a secondary resource. My use of the PDF version of the book is for something to read at work during downtime, and for a quick "CTRL-F" search of the document for something, so that I can then figure out where it is, and pull the real book off the shelf.
If I can't find the PDFs, it's not a huge deal. If I can find them, sweet! If the original copyright holder wants to charge a nominal fee for them (say 10%-20% of the cost of the print version), I'll gladly pay it, but I'm not going to buy a $39.95 print book, and then pay $39.95 for a PDF copy of it. I'll scan it and OCR it myself, if I have to.
It's funny, though - if books were only in PDF form, I'd have binders full of printed PDFs (God forbid the RPG industry ever teams up with the wood products industry in some kind of cross-promotional marketing!).
I think that all of the books we purchase today should have a business-card CD inside containing a PDF of the book, and other supplemental material.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Oh, by no means would I *EVER* trade my books for a PDF, but I do find them handy.That said, they're a secondary resource. My use of the PDF version of the book is for something to read at work during downtime, and for a quick "CTRL-F" search of the document for something, so that I can then figure out where it is, and pull the real book off the shelf.
If I can't find the PDFs, it's not a huge deal. If I can find them, sweet! If the original copyright holder wants to charge a nominal fee for them (say 10%-20% of the cost of the print version), I'll gladly pay it, but I'm not going to buy a $39.95 print book, and then pay $39.95 for a PDF copy of it. I'll scan it and OCR it myself, if I have to.
It's funny, though - if books were only in PDF form, I'd have binders full of printed PDFs (God forbid the RPG industry ever teams up with the wood products industry in some kind of cross-promotional marketing!).
I think that all of the books we purchase today should have a business-card CD inside containing a PDF of the book, and other supplemental material.
This just sums up everything I believe myself. That and Paizo (and KQ) have spoiled us with the subscription Dead tree + PDF option. In a way I am paying that 10-20% for Pathfinder, since I could buy it at my FLGS cheeper, but w/o the PDF.
i've had to buy PDFs of some of the Malhavoc stuff, because it's OOP, but I find that being money well spent.
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I like books.
What he said. I find myself printing stuff out to read.
I work all day in front of a computer and my eyes get tired. The last freaking thing I want to do is go home and sit front of a computer!
This is why all of my friends outlevel me in online games... I have to get up and go outside once a day, to remember what the big yellow globe of death in the sky looks like. IT BURNS! IT BURNS US!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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since the authors have invested only work but not even a penny in production costs and so no financial risk at all.
I'm sorry Patricio but a career in economics is not for you. Even for a self-published PDF, an author's time should be calculated in terms of lost potential income elsewhere and be considered a cost, computer time, software to create PDFs, paying of artists, telephones, ... I'm sure others who have experience in this area could add to the list. OF COURSE THERE IS FINANCIAL RISK INVOLVED.
Now: I, myself, do not like digital versions of things that I read.
I like books.
Books that [...] I can read on an airplane without worrying that my laptop isn't plugged in or that it might cause the plane to crash.
"I know that if I open this window, the machine will crash, I swear"
I think you confused the issues.
"Bloototh detected a new device: Boing 747."
I love my books, and I do not foresee ever, EVER going to PDF for my gaming needs.
I love my books, too. PDFs can't replace them. But they're great at complementing them.
In the end, I think Paizo does it right: Get the PDF for free (well, you do have to subscribe, but still)
If I can't find the PDFs, it's not a huge deal. If I can find them, sweet! If the original copyright holder wants to charge a nominal fee for them (say 10%-20% of the cost of the print version), I'll gladly pay it, but I'm not going to buy a $39.95 print book, and then pay $39.95 for a PDF copy of it. I'll scan it and OCR it myself, if I have to.
Exactly. That's just ridiculous.
I'm sorry Patricio but a career in economics is not for you. Even for a self-published PDF, an author's time should be calculated in terms of lost potential income elsewhere and be considered a cost, computer time, software to create PDFs, paying of artists, telephones, ... I'm sure others who have experience in this area could add to the list. OF COURSE THERE IS FINANCIAL RISK INVOLVED.since the authors have invested only work but not even a penny in production costs and so no financial risk at all.
If you leave your job, or start living with your savings without working at all and dedicate 3 to 6 months creating a product that could or could not sell, of course there is financial risk involved.
But if you reunite a team that work at nights, weekends and holydays for my point of view no risk at all, you finish with a contribution to the industry. Should it sells well, great! Should it doesn't sell well, at least we get a little money for something we enjoyed doing. Should it doesn't sell at all, no problem we enjoyed, earned XP and made our names be known.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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since the authors have invested only work but not even a penny in production costs and so no financial risk at all.If you leave your job, or start living with your savings without working at all and dedicate 3 to 6 months creating a product that could or could not sell, of course there is financial risk involved.
But if you reunite a team that work at nights, weekends and holydays for my point of view no risk at all, you finish with a contribution to the industry. Should it sells well, great! Should it doesn't sell well, at least we get a little money for something we enjoyed doing. Should it doesn't sell at all, no problem we enjoyed, earned XP and made our names be known.
Well, see now that is a different question. Now, you are now talking about the difference between professionally produced work and stuff produced as a sideline. You're changing the subject.
My dad and mom wouldn't let me read it. In fact, they burned all my D&D books. Lumpy's dad told them it was devil stuff.
since the authors have invested only work but not even a penny in production costs and so no financial risk at all.If you leave your job, or start living with your savings without working at all and dedicate 3 to 6 months creating a product that could or could not sell, of course there is financial risk involved.
But if you reunite a team that work at nights, weekends and holydays for my point of view no risk at all, you finish with a contribution to the industry. Should it sells well, great! Should it doesn't sell well, at least we get a little money for something we enjoyed doing. Should it doesn't sell at all, no problem we enjoyed, earned XP and made our names be known.
Well, see now that is a different question. Now, you are now talking about the difference between professionally produced work and stuff produced as a sideline. You're changing the subject.
Tarren Dei, every professional at the RPG field (that is people that make a living producing RPG stuff) knows that that is risky field unless you are Monte Cook or Skip Williams you can't risk your family's bread in something so risky as RPGs if not look for all those big enterprises cough*the producers of the tri-stat system*cough that right now are out of business because they invested big money and big time in printed and reaaaaalllly expensive PDFs waiting revenues.
By general rule creators start as fans and creating fan made products, later in their spare time improve their creations and later submit them to big publishers. Some breaks some not but I don't thing professional self-publishers one day said "I will dedicate full time creating my product and I will sell it and will earn a lot a money" Many of them have a second job and make this more for fun than for profit, in another thread I just read that President of Necromancer games is a full time lawyer that runs this company only for passion allowing others that work for him take the profit. Well obviously I can't compare Necromancer games with a self-publishing one man company but if this happens in the big ones imagine in the little ones.
In economics, there is a concept called 'opportunity cost'. It represents the cost of things that are not necessarily measured in money. For instance, free time has a value because I could in theory either because one could work during that time to make more money, or because many people are willing to take pay cuts in order to get more free time. Any choice has an opportunity cost, because it means not doing something else.
In the case of part-time game developers, they are giving up time that could be spent on other hobbies, with their family, or on more lucrative second jobs. By devoting nights and weekends, they are paying a cost.
Clark Peterson expects no reward: He enjoys running Necromancer enough that in itself it is worth the cost. But to others, the time spent writing represents an investment which they hope to earn back by selling their product. Just because it is a temporal investment instead of a financial one doesn't make it any less costly.
In economics, there is a concept called 'opportunity cost'. It represents the cost of things that are not necessarily measured in money. For instance, free time has a value because I could in theory either because one could work during that time to make more money, or because many people are willing to take pay cuts in order to get more free time. Any choice has an opportunity cost, because it means not doing something else.
In the case of part-time game developers, they are giving up time that could be spent on other hobbies, with their family, or on more lucrative second jobs. By devoting nights and weekends, they are paying a cost.
Clark Peterson expects no reward: He enjoys running Necromancer enough that in itself it is worth the cost. But to others, the time spent writing represents an investment which they hope to earn back by selling their product. Just because it is a temporal investment instead of a financial one doesn't make it any less costly.
I am not an economics expert but I think your statement has logic. For me what gives sense to life (unless you work in something you really love) is spare time, the rest is time used to sleep, work, go to bathroom, eating, etc. Without spare time our life is not more funny than a man in prison's life (although cons that play D&D the whole day could think different). And I don't know many people that doesn't want a little more spare time to make what they really like and that could be whatever you want. If your passion is RPGs you will be willing to write a sourcebook or an adventure even for free and believe me the least you will do is calculating the 'opportunity cost'.
Patricio, is it your purpose in life to argue, or just your personal hobby?
On these threads I have learned from the masters. ;)
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If your passion is RPGs you will be willing to write a sourcebook or an adventure even for free and believe me the least you will do is calculating the 'opportunity cost'.
Well, Patricio, look at the price tag on the back of the book or on the PDF. Apparently some people are calculating the opportunity cost. I would not insult them by saying that they should not charge for their labour.
If your passion is RPGs you will be willing to write a sourcebook or an adventure even for free and believe me the least you will do is calculating the 'opportunity cost'.Well, Patricio, look at the price tag on the back of the book or on the PDF. Apparently some people are calculating the opportunity cost. I would not insult them by saying that they should not charge for their labour.
Why you think I say they should not charge something for their work?
I did not intend insulting anybody, you are taking a statement of mine out of context. All this matter started because I said that publishers should be aware that unless they are Monte Cook, Skip Williams or any other stablished author. They should not risk their families' bread leaving financial security to invest full time in a game product that could sell or not.Those that read this post should read my former ones and see that some statements have been taken out of context.
I never said an author should not charge for their work but I said that if an author charges for his work and doesn't receive financial revenues should not be sad because at last he won XP, have a good time and made his name (or company) be known.
My posts are over there read them.
Well, actually, yes.
If I loathe my job, does that mean I should be paid *more?* Sort of to compensate for the pain and suffering?
Yes, talk with the guys of the syndicate ;-)
Because you started this thread by saying you didn't pay for the work?Why you think I say they should not charge something for their work?
These threads are really interesting: every time you opinate different to someone or are honest saying what you really have done, he is ready to bash you in a merciless way.
Without any kind of sarcasm I think you are one of those that has all the authority to throw the first stone.