I'm getting increasingly dissatisfied with modules produced by Nicholas Logue. They all seem to share characteristics I find distasteful, and if anything the trends are all pointing in the wrong direction.
What do I expect from Logue modules now? Mass slaughter, innocents getting corrupted or turning to evil, graphic descriptions of torture and pathology, etc. (It's in everything he does, from the articles about Victor Saint Demain in Dungeon, to D1, Hook Mountain Massacre, and now E1.)
E1 is a good example. There are graphic descriptions of slaughter of random townspeople, the best case scenario involves tens or a hundred people in the town dying, and at the end, the two main NPCs are both corrupted and turn to evil. Boy, that's going to make the PCs feel good.
Once or twice I might let go, but it is starting to look like every module by him will contain these elements. I'm getting tired of it. I'm sure the Hangman's Noose will have the same elements.
Is every other module in the Gamemastery line going to be by Logue and contain these elements? I realize my opinion may be in the minority, and that's fine. But if the situation remains the same, I'm going to have to ask for a Logue-free subscription model or cancel my subscription instead.
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I'm gonna have to throw my support for the Logue here. My group did the first half of E1 last night ending it right at the fireworks show (and I had two little clowns immediately show up and I put on ICP's "The Greatest Show". They can't wait for the next game which unfortunately will have to wait until after the holidays.
It does seem like a bit much all at once, but different writers have different tastes and strengths. I personally rock at writing war-based adventures (like Heroes of Battle kind of stuff). We'll just have to get them to do more open calls to find new writers so we can get more variety in =p. For now if it's not what you want, just hold onto it. You mustn't need to run every adventure as soon as it hits your mailbox. Maybe save Carnival of Tears (which is pretty standalone) until next Halloween or when the mood strikes your players.
Running it at the same time as Skinsaw Murders or Hook Mountain Massacre might be a horror overload. (Although my group doesn't seem to mind, as we're doing Skinsaw, Carnival of Tears AND the new 3.5 Ravenloft all at once)
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I think in general, its a good thing.
Having certain Authors really showcase certain styles allows for a greater variety of products. If you overly sanitize you make things overly bland. Spice is the variety of life (that didn't work so well, but you get my drift).
I think it should be encouraged. The Authors should get more credit, good and bad, for their work. Your criticism tells me that we are finally getting unique products that showcase certain authors creativity.
I would say what we need is for the other authors to step up to the plate and really show their creativity so as to be a counter to Monsieur Logue. Perhaps then you can find an author you can enjoy.
Well I rated Carnival of Tears 5 stars in my mini-review for its creativity and originality.
I do, however, support the original poster, as I think "horror-overload" is a bad thing. When you consider the whole Pathfinder list of products, there is no harm in one or two products being "blood and guts", as this might mean a refreshing change to the average game session, if the GM is up to it. The Pathfinder is, I would suggest, however, a "mainstream" product, targeted perhaps at adults and if it veers towards bloodthirsty violence it is certainly NOT mainstream and should be in a niche, which Paizo may which to create - perhaps the "V" series for Violent.
As an adult GM, I would not be comfortable running a campaign with continual explicit language or bloodthirsty activities, but I can handle it for maybe a "one off", such as E1, which I plan to run after D1. Beyond that it becomes gratuitous and suitable to only those who enjoy horror.
I will say, though, that the writer is a very talented chap and I would hope he could "modify" his style a tiny bit to accommodate his target market, whilst still maintaining the "realism" that clearly he intend to portray in his modules.
Perhaps then you can find an author you can enjoy.
Maybe he should try Richard Pett. ;)
Well put Stedd. I like the fact that different author's have different styles. I understand why the OP might not like Logue's warped (that's a compliment) style. Personally, I really like his writing. I'm also glad Paizo has multiple talented writers that grace their products.
Yeah, I can understand your take on it, Logue can be pretty hardcore. But I think the strength of his writing and his creativity are so far and above a lot of other writers in the RPG industry I would forgive him almost anything (i.e. eating babies, cracking a chair over my head, etc.).
As a DM I personally don't feel it would be incredibly hard to tone down the corruption or gore of a Logue adventure, but if you're really wanting to run the adventure as is without any manipulation, you're gonna get far end PG-13.
I look at it this way: D&D worlds are not happy places. There is strife, evil, war, corruption, and kobolds. All the better for my players to be Paragons of Justice (or join in on the fun...:E).
I am not in any way dissatisfied with Nick’s modules. I don’t buy them, because they aren’t really my thing, but I think he’s a terrific writer who has the market cornered on seriously freaky crap.
Sometimes it takes someone to cross it, in order to show you where the line is.
Well put Stedd. I like the fact that different author's have different styles. I understand why the OP might not like Logue's warped (that's a compliment) style. Personally, I really like his writing. I'm also glad Paizo has multiple talented writers that grace their products.
And I'm ok with all of that. The problem for me comes down to two things:
(1) Logue seems incapable of writing a module without these elements (for good or ill) so I can't enjoy his modules.
(2) He's writing half of the modules!
So that means half of my subscription is not that useful to me.
This isn't actually a dig at Logue, really. After all, he can clearly write well and meet deadlines to crank out these modules, and many people seem to enjoy his work.
The problem is that he is starting to define the entire line for me, and if half of all the Gamemastery modules are by him (and therefore contain these elements), then I will have to cancel my subscription.
Here's a question for the Paizo staff: Is there going to be more variety in the themes and authors of future Gamemastery modules?
If not, I'll just have to go ahead and cancel my subscription. I understand that Paizo has to survive, and if this is a niche that is profitable for Paizo, that's fine. But they can count me out in the future if that is true.
I'm getting increasingly dissatisfied with modules produced by Nicholas Logue. They all seem to share characteristics I find distasteful, and if anything the trends are all pointing in the wrong direction.
What do I expect from Logue modules now? Mass slaughter, innocents getting corrupted or turning to evil, graphic descriptions of torture and pathology, etc. (It's in everything he does, from the articles about Victor Saint Demain in Dungeon, to D1, Hook Mountain Massacre, and now E1.)
** spoiler omitted **
Once or twice I might let go, but it is starting to look like every module by him will contain these elements. I'm getting tired of it. I'm sure the Hangman's Noose will have the same elements.
Is every other module in the Gamemastery line going to be by Logue and contain these elements? I realize my opinion may be in the minority, and that's fine. But if the situation remains the same, I'm going to have to ask for a Logue-free subscription model or cancel my subscription instead.
I dunno, instead of being dissatisfied with things in a Logue adventure a LOGUE ADVENTURE, just don't buy LOUGE ADVENTURES? Also I dont see why YOU as a GM can't omit the harsher parts of the adventures as the structure of the adventures themselves are pretty sound. There are certain writers whose work that I dont particularly care for. I dont come message boards and slag them, I just dont buy their work.
By the way, I think that his adventures are a bit on the horrifically harsh side, but that's part of his style and by no means are the adventures themselves bad. I like 'em...
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But if the situation remains the same, I'm going to have to ask for a Logue-free subscription model or cancel my subscription instead.
I dunno, instead of being dissatisfied with things in a Logue adventure a LOGUE ADVENTURE, just don't buy LOUGE ADVENTURES?
That's pretty much what he's saying here.
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Nic is a great writer. I find it a bit of a shame that he is ploughing this horror/splatter-punk genre so much (though with E1, he was only co-author and we don't know how much Tim Hitchcock was also laying on the mutilation) as for me it isn't my thing either, and I think it actually does him something of a disservice ("Oh yeah, Logue - he writes the gory stuff") and is certainly not displaying much in the way of variety at the moment. I know both he and James (although James isn't the editor for the Gamemastery products) like this stuff, so it is hardly a surprise, but after the intial shock with Hook Mountain this is beginning to get old - the shredded flesh, severed limbs and so on - quite fast.
Creative Director
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Here's a question for the Paizo staff: Is there going to be more variety in the themes and authors of future Gamemastery modules?
First off... I think Nick's a very talented writer, and he'll certainly be continuing to write adventures for GameMastery and Pathfinder. In fact, he's writing the first adventure in Curse of the Crimson Throne (which is a very VERY different adventure from Hook Mountain, for those of you who felt that one went too far).
HOWEVER: We certainly will be mixing it up as we forge ahead, as in using different authors. In Pathfinder, my goal is to have each adventure path feature at least one or two authors who've never written a Pathfinder adventure. And now that we've got the GameMastery module line up and running, I'd love to see some newer authors show up there as well.
When we started these products up, though, we wanted to go with authors who we'd worked with before and trusted to turn in quality material. That's why you're seeing so many written by familiar names like Nick Logue, Wolfgang Baur, Greg Vaughan, Richard Pett, and so on.
As for horror... one thing we've noticed in Dungeon was that the darker, horror-themed adventures were constantly placing in a lot of readers' favorites, so that's a big reason why we opened with so many horror-themed adventures. Again, now that we're up and running, we'll be expanding into other genres. In upcoming issues of Pathfinder you'll be seeing classic dungeon crawls, exploring lost cities, and dealing with the politics and perils of a city in anarchy. In upcoming GameMastery modules you'll be exploring monster-infested dungeons, crusading against demons, and taking some perilous river journeys.
In any event, we HAVE heard your voices, and for what it's worth I agree that there's been too much splatterpunk and gore infusing the GameMastery and Pathfinder adventures. As soon as Pathfinder 4, you'll be seeing these elements reduced (which was actually kind of the plan all along... Hook Mountain was SUPPOSED to be gory and gross). Likewise in the GameMastery adventures... although there's at least one more pretty gruesome one coming soon, we'll be striving to hit a better balance in adventure themes there as well.
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I dunno, instead of being dissatisfied with things in a Logue adventure a LOGUE ADVENTURE, just don't buy LOUGE ADVENTURES?
If you subscribe, you can't opt out. And I don't assume that just because Nic is writing it it will involve this sort of thing - though so far this would seem to becoming a standard trope for him.
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I feel that it is necessary to do a tally of Nic Logue adventures in the GMM line, scince part of the OP's complaint is that Nic makes up a major portion of the line.
Already Shipped
D1: Nic Logue
W1: Jason Bulmahn
D2: Paizo Staff (James Sutter)
U1: Steve Greer
J1: Michael Kortes
E1: Nic Logue & Tim Hitchcock
Tally - 1.5 out of 7 adventures have the Touch of Logue
Not yet Shipped:
J2: Anson Caralya
U2: Nic Logue
J3: Wolfgang Baur
W2: Greg A. Vaughan
D3: Tim Hitchcock and Stephen S. Greer
W3: David Schwartz
LB1: Author Unannounced
LB2: Author Unannounced
D4: Author Unannounced
Tally - 1 out of 6 adventures (not counting the Author Unannounced Modules) have the Touch of Logue.
These tallies do not count D0 or TC1 as they are not part of the subscription.
As for Pathfinder, with one module adventure in each of the first two APs, 2 out of 12 Pathfinders have the Touch of Logue.
Thats a total of 4.5 out of 25.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thoughts on E1:
I really liked the module - it was like a splattery horror movie brought into the D&D paradigm. Most adventures don't wantonly kill anyone and everyone for effect. It was pretty shocking to see that the module was set up such that the players could not save everyone. I feel like most adventures have that safety net where the good guy can save the princess before anything bad happens; they can prevent the invasion from killing everyone in town. So, I think it really worked well and would do wonders to shake the complacency of groups that think they have all the time in the world to save the world.
That being said, I don't think it should happen all the time, and the ending was really off kilter. The PCs ultimately are heroes, and the way the module is set up, they can't actually achieve any meaningful success. There should be a reward for being heroes, and that was sorely lacking in this module.
Also, it seems like Crown of the Kobold King was not over the top gorey. It does have a certain element in it, but it is not by any means the driving element.
Nick ran me through a game two weeks ago, and though it 7th level play we engaged a massive confrontation between the forces of good and evil. There was no more gore than one would expect in the battlefield. So, it's not like he's locked into an Ed Gein true crime phase, he just wrote some twisted stuff because he wanted to at the time. It was powerful writing and I enjoyed it, but then I like anything that is useable and provocative.
Although it sounds like, "Boycott Logue," I'm really hearing, "I don't want that kind of adventure and I'm locked into a subscription." You want something mainstream. Most people do, that's why they call it mainstream.
But, I think great art often slaps one's expectations of the table. It seeks to please the audience without compromising for it. Perhaps a ratings system would help? Don't go all "Tipper Gore!" on me... I mean more of a shorthand ingredients list per each Gamemastery adventure. That still doesn't help the guy stuck with a subscription who finds himself displeased with the content.
This adventure is rated: P (prude)
This adventure is rated: CYE (cover your eyes)
RPG companies need to decide just how much artistic bravery they will allow and delineate their parameters for "good taste/bad taste" material, because once you step past a certain tipping point you can go from major circulation and solid career paychecks to a small die hard readership that calls you the bards of our time and buys you rounds at Origins while you can't even afford Scotch tape. It's a slippery slope.
I say, keep being what you are Paizo. You can be the WotC lil brother, belching out secondary material for a market that will likely shell out because you're work is always quality, or you can leave your signature across the face of gaming and take many of us with you to the grave.
Does that sound too Jonestown?
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(2) He's writing half of the modules!
To be exact, from D0 to U2 (10 modules) there are 3 modules he wrote, one of them in collaboration with Tim Hitchcock. I can understand if Nic's style doesn't meet your taste, but with all due respect, there are seven other modules written by other authors.
But if this is not sufficient to stay as a subscriber than I won't argue against it.
O.K. the Ungoded beat me to it :)
James, I appreciate the detailed response.
Here's a question for the Paizo staff: Is there going to be more variety in the themes and authors of future Gamemastery modules?First off... I think Nick's a very talented writer, and he'll certainly be continuing to write adventures for GameMastery and Pathfinder. In fact, he's writing the first adventure in Curse of the Crimson Throne (which is a very VERY different adventure from Hook Mountain, for those of you who felt that one went too far).
It's good to hear that his style will be changing for CotCT. For me it is not just the splatterpunk, it's also the depravity and hopelessness. Too many NPCs in his stories end up evil even after getting saved by the PCs.
After all, he is a good writer and knows how to put together a good adventure. It would be good for him to be writing with a variety of themes.
It is also good that you will be mixing up themes and authors. Variety is always good as long as everything is high quality, and so far, paizo has been good about that.
So it sounds like I should just cancel my subscription before Hangman's Noose and then start it up again afterwards. Too bad, I like good love level adventures, but it's clear from what you've said and Logue's track record that I am going to hate it.
I say, keep being what you are Paizo. You can be the WotC lil brother, belching out secondary material for a market that will likely shell out because you're work is always quality, or you can leave your signature across the face of gaming and take many of us with you to the grave.
Does that sound too Jonestown?
OH YEAH!!!!!!
(just kidding)
It's good to hear that his style will be changing for CotCT. For me it is not just the splatterpunk, it's also the depravity and hopelessness. Too many NPCs in his stories end up evil even after getting saved by the PCs.
After all, he is a good writer and knows how to put together a good adventure. It would be good for him to be writing with a variety of themes.
It is also good that you will be mixing up themes and authors. Variety is always good as long as everything is high quality, and so far, paizo has been good about that.
So it sounds like I should just cancel my subscription before Hangman's Noose and then start it up again afterwards. Too bad, I like good love level adventures, but it's clear from what you've said and Logue's track record that I am going to hate it.
Edge actually has quite the opposite: The PCs actions in a lot of cases REDEEM NPCs in that adventure.
I promise it's not really my style jwl, it just has been the kinds of modules I've been picked to write lately.
To clairfy: The "corruption overcomes efforts on behalf of the good to change a society for the better" is a theme of Falcon's Hollow. I wanted the place to be a dreay souless town obsessed with raping the land and putting profit into the pockets of the powerful. Hence the connection between D1 and E1 with the sad ending notes on the NPCs and the corruption factor there. That said, the PCs have a chance to change that, especially in D1. Thuldrin's son's "soul" is up for grabs, and its up to the PCs continued actions to ensure he doesn't go down the same crooked path his father walks.
To be honest, the reason the NPC notes at the endings of D1 and E1 are so negative is merely because these choice make MUCH better springboards for further adventures involving these NPCs. If everything ends up hunkey-dory with them, then there is no conflict to set up in the future involving them. If things twist out bad for them in the end, suddenly the adventure isn't over on the last page of the module, but rather it has only just begun. This was really my goal with the NPC end notes - a starting place for the DM to take the conflict to new places. You can totally ignore them if you're not interested in pursuing those story lines and proclaim a happy ending if you want. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, its just not as useful for me to do as a writer (I'd rather pony up some new conflicts for your gaming group to explore if the DM wants to use em). That's all. I promise I'm not morose and sick really, just very into intense drama/conflict at the gaming table cause I find it brings the fun and makes the big pay off fights all the more interesting.
With the "there is no way to simply win win win" aspect is something I find near and dear to rpgs. Heroes don't always succeed and one person's hero is ALWAYS another person's villain. I use the hard choices in rpgs and bring on the bad consequences for evil's actions because I find it more true to life and true to drama (if that makes sense). Again, if it doesn't work for your group, it's pretty easy to alter swiftly in most cases.
Again, sorry my recent adventures haven't worked out so good for you jwl. I promise not all of my future one's are in this vein. Please don't boycott me. Well, actually, you can do whatever you want really, just asking you to give me another chance.
Hangman's Noose is dark and grim, but has plenty of room for redemption and a happy ending...well at least for those who deserve it. ;-)
You'll be happy to know I'm not on the schedule after Hangman's Noose.
You can be the WotC lil brother, belching out secondary material
I'd like to point out that here, at what we merrily refer to as the 'Hive', we do in fact eat our young if they fail to produce.
Though we would never wish to offend our paying patrons. This philosophy is modeled on our "Don't write about it, just do it" policy.
DISCLAIMER:
This communication is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, (i) please do not read or disclose to others, (ii) please notify the sender by reply mail, and (iii) please delete this communication from your system. Failure to follow this process may be unlawful. Thank you for your cooperation.
Although it sounds like, "Boycott Logue," I'm really hearing, "I don't want that kind of adventure and I'm locked into a subscription." You want something mainstream. Most people do, that's why they call it mainstream.But, I think great art often slaps one's expectations of the table. It seeks to please the audience without compromising for it. Perhaps a ratings system would help? Don't go all "Tipper Gore!" on me... I mean more of a shorthand ingredients list per each Gamemastery adventure. That still doesn't help the guy stuck with a subscription who finds himself displeased with the content.
This adventure is rated: P (prude)
This adventure is rated: CYE (cover your eyes)
I disagree with your characterization of my comments. I don't want something mainstream, necessarily. (I don't like dungeon crawls at all, for example.) I just don't want torture, gore, depravity, and hopelessness in every module Logue writes. If he is capable of producing great art, then he can work with more than one theme or angle.
And, to be more precise, Logue isn't slapping my expectations off the table. I expect his modules to contain certain elements, and voila, they do. If anything, he's becoming hackneyed at this point.
For example, I'm more okay with Pett's stuff, especially since it seems he has more than one register.
A more accurate ratings system would be something like this:
L (Loguist) : will contain torture, gore, depravity, and hopelessness.
EE (Everyone Else) : a wide variety of themes and approaches.
I say, keep being what you are Paizo. You can be the WotC lil brother, belching out secondary material for a market that will likely shell out because you're work is always quality, or you can leave your signature across the face of gaming and take many of us with you to the grave.
Does that sound too Jonestown?
OH YEAH!!!!!!
(just kidding)
You're not related to Vomit Guy or Dead Horse, are you?
-The Gneech
You can be the WotC lil brother, belching out secondary materialI'd like to point out that here, at what we merrily refer to as the 'Hive', we do in fact eat our young if they fail to produce.
Though we would never wish to offend our paying patrons. This philosophy is modeled on our "Don't write about it, just do it" policy.
DISCLAIMER:
This communication is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, (i) please do not read or disclose to others, (ii) please notify the sender by reply mail, and (iii) please delete this communication from your system. Failure to follow this process may be unlawful. Thank you for your cooperation.
GET BACK TO WORK!
Nicolas Logue,
Thanks for writing in. It's invaluable to hear your thoughts on the writing process. This can't be the most pleasant thread for you, and I appreciate your measured response.
It's interesting that you say that about the notes at the end of E1. My problem with those was that things seemed very locked in. If the PCs succeeded and limited casualties, Falcon's Hollow continued to be a terrible place and the two main NPCs become evil. It's only a great failure on the PCs' part, killing huge numbers of people, that breaks the control of the logger barons. That makes sense from a sociological viewpoint (and is cool in that respect) but it is rather depressing for the PCs.
Let me think about keeping my subscription.
By the way, I know you are into Chinese opera. Is Chinese opera as bloody as Western opera?
I don't know if it makes it more or less funny that Hasbro is misspelled.
If laughing at this error helps you to appreciate how awesomely cool our new version of the world's most popular role-play game will be, then this misspelling does in fact make it all that much more funny.
Did I mention than an acclaimed author Rick Louges will be writing for us soon?
Oh, one more thing. I realize (belatedly) that this thread could degenerate into anti-Logueism. Ultimately, paizo is responsible for its own products. What we see are the final products after they have been through a fair amount of editing. I don't and can't know what the original manuscripts for E1 or D1 or even Path3 looked like, all I can judge on is the final product. I don't know what portion of the module comes from Nicolas Logue, what portion from his cowriters, and what portion from the editors. I'm mostly worried about the one-note nature of the products, and that's something that's beyond Nicolas Logue's control - for that the responsibility rests with paizo and the editors of the line. They specify the general outlines and themes of the modules themselves and they have the ability to change it. Luckily, it looks like they are going to be broadening the themes.
I disagree with your characterization of my comments. I don't want something mainstream, necessarily. (I don't like dungeon crawls at all, for example.) I just don't want torture, gore, depravity, and hopelessness in every module Logue writes. If he is capable of producing great art, then he can work with more than one theme or angle.And, to be more precise, Logue isn't slapping my expectations off the table. I expect his modules to contain certain elements, and voila, they do. If anything, he's becoming hackneyed at this point.
For example, I'm more okay with Pett's stuff, especially since it seems he has more than one register.
A more accurate ratings system would be something like this:
L (Loguist) : will contain torture, gore, depravity, and hopelessness.
EE (Everyone Else) : a wide variety of themes and approaches.
It would be irrelevent for me to comment on your points regarding my points because you took what I said personally and I was referring to the huge outpouring of opinion on this very matter in the Torture Porn thread. I wasn't characterizing your comments; rather, I was discussing the nature of the recent controversy. Thus words like boycott were brought up here, because they were there. Same with the word mainstream. You not liking Logue's recent work doesn't matter to me. Paizo not hiring Logue anymore because of people's sensitibilities, en masse, does.
The prude thing and cover your eyes rating was a joke, not aimed at you. If it was, I'd tell you. Really.
I don't play many depravity themed games myself, but then I wouldn't mind trying a few. I've a broad aesthetic and could probably find a way to enjoy fighting a cannibal ogre clan or some such.
Edit: reading back I see I said "you" a lot when I honestly meant the universal you. that's my bad. Sorry.
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One of the "problems" with Nick's adventures is the quality.
I can break out all the TSR Ravenloft adventures I have, read through them, and look for caffeine pills to stay awake.
I read one of Nick's adventures like Hook Mountain or Carnival, and it is "Sweet Jebus, claw my eyes out, cower in a swimming pool of holy water, and hope the flood lights do not go out for a week" before I am halfway finished.
At the end of a Ravenloft adventure, I hope I have not hurt the villain's feelings.
At the end of one of Nick's adventures I want to break out the holy avenger, trade all my feats for extra smiting, and grab a potion of lesser restoration to remove fatigue because I know I will be there awhile.
In a Ravenloft, the banality of everything - the villains, the victims, the evil, is repellant.
In one of Nick's adventures, the clarity of the presentation of the horror, gore, and evil make them repellant.
That is why I think they come off as so overwhelming, despite not being a sizable portion of the products overall. The images and possible consequences pursue you into the next adventure you like a slasher villain.
Worse even! It is like Imagionationland where all the evil characters are afraid of the kid who thought up the Woodland Critters.
So . . .
The problem is that it is too good.
Maybe they should just make Nick write suckier. :-P
Absolutely. His stuff is so evocative and provocative and it isn't merely unpleasant subject matter turning some off, it's his seductive method of making you live within the horror of it all that's so wonderfully unnerving.
You say "intestines" in an adventure and no one bats an eye. Logue depicts "intestinges" in such a way people feel actual revulsion. The kind you'd expect to have if that bloated pink snake you just stepped on in a real world slaughterhouse wasn't a really snake after all.
GORF!
I dont mind the splatterpunk (man I learn lots of new phrases on these boards - first torture porn, now splatterpunk) though the dollops can get a little offputting and I am desperate to find a nice module to run for my 9yr old. However the hopelessness does seem a bit depressing so it is best to break it up a bit. I can't quite remember how all the rescued kids turned out in Crown of the Kobold King -
It seems a bit like even if you do everything right you still get it wrong. I prefer in general having it that if the players do the right thing (ie rescue all the kids, get them home etc) that things turn out well. I agree that this is not always the case in real life. It is just my preference. Still when I run the Darkmoon Vale area it is like role playing in Deadwood, everyone knows that enjoyment and happiness are just brief respites between the grinding remorseless evil and misery of the world... I dont play there often - but as a change of style it's ok.
For the record I dont think it is too much and think the extra flavour is better than some other bland stuff. Reminds me of a shorthand style we had for playing Call of Cthulhu under certain GM's back in the day: roll 1d6 1-3 you die, 4-5 go insane, 6 roll again
Maybe Paizo needs to start doing a monthly check list thing. I remember when I was subscribed to one of those music groups, every month they would send me a notice, "Do you want to order anything, also we are going to send you this CD unless you tell us no." You had to send it back saying, "No I don't want that CD."
Now I don't know about going to that extreme but there maybe an option to opt out of a module for a month without totally dropping the subscription and having to rejoin the next month.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Funny, I was thinking of starting a thread this morning called "I blame Nicholas Logue ..." but then I got busy. It would have gone like this:
My wife tells me I woke up screaming last night. I haven't done that in so long. I like to be scared sometimes but my fear button seems to be particularly hard to trigger. Thank you Nicholas for the adrenalin rush, pounding-heart, paranoid sensations, and fear that the shadow in the corner might not be from my clothes hanging over a chair. ...
Actually it doesn't sound like I'm really saying thanks but I real enjoy a good scare and I'm hard to scare. The Hook Mountain Massacre actually frightened me. I won't be playing it with my 7-year-old but a lot of WOTC products are fine for him.
Maybe Paizo needs to start doing a monthly check list thing. I remember when I was subscribed to one of those music groups, every month they would send me a notice, "Do you want to order anything, also we are going to send you this CD unless you tell us no." You had to send it back saying, "No I don't want that CD."
Now I don't know about going to that extreme but there maybe an option to opt out of a module for a month without totally dropping the subscription and having to rejoin the next month.
On a serious note (no more joke avatar posts).. I hear ya Pres Man.
I haven't commented seriously on the OP's post because I don't feel I'm qualified to do so. I can't tell the guy what to like and what not to like. Nick himself has asked for another chance, and ultimately I think the dialogue has to happen between those two..
But I am distressed that the fashion statement of the week is "I want to be able to opt out of something, or I'll quit and re-subscribe afterwards." This is NOT an attack against the OP incidentally, it's happening in other topics as well.
The road to that leads to not having subscriptions, because they become useless after a while as their purpose becomes circumvented.
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I'm happy with all the modules and all the authors that have come out, especially Hook Mountain. The people I plan on running it for like horror movies, and love call of cthulhu. I'm personally a big fan of SLA Industries (despite its many obvious shortcomings). I think you need the dark and shocking moments to give the PCs a chance to shine. The Torture Porn thread and similar comments made here were a bit of a shock to me. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I'm mostly worried about the one-note nature of the products, and that's something that's beyond Nicolas Logue's control - for that the responsibility rests with paizo and the editors of the line. They specify the general outlines and themes of the modules themselves and they have the ability to change it. Luckily, it looks like they are going to be broadening the themes.
One of the goals with the first year or so of modules was to explore a wide variety of different ideas, themes, and gaming styles to see which ones resonated with our audience and were worth pursuing, and which ones did not. The flexibility of the single adventure format allowed us to explore some riskier areas without committing to a full adventure path based on those themes. Would people buy Egypt-style adventures? What about stand-alone Dungeon crawls? How popular are urban or mystery adventures? All of these are potential adventure path material, but carried some considerable risk.
Horror, and dark fey are two of the themes we were excited to explore early in the conceptual process of the module line's development. In retrospect, it's kind of unfortunate that the release of those modules coincided so perfectly with the Pathfinder horror adventure, as it perhaps gave readers the impression that we were going horror, which was not the intention.
You can expect us continue to present a wide array of adventures and themes, while at the same time we make the occasional return to those areas (like Falcon's Hollow) that prove to be the most popular with our readers and subscribers.
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But I am distressed that the fashion statement of the week is "I want to be able to opt out of something, or I'll quit and re-subscribe afterwards." gainst the OP incidentally, it's happening in other topics as well.
Yeah, I mean is it just me, or does E1 feel more and more like torture p--oh, wait! Nevermind.
So the Red Raven shouldn't be a serial killer who eats his victim's eyeballs? Now you tell me!
*crumples manuscript* *toss* *walks off*
Nicolas Logue,
Thanks for writing in. It's invaluable to hear your thoughts on the writing process. This can't be the most pleasant thread for you, and I appreciate your measured response.
It's interesting that you say that about the notes at the end of E1. My problem with those was that things seemed very locked in. If the PCs succeeded and limited casualties, Falcon's Hollow continued to be a terrible place and the two main NPCs become evil. It's only a great failure on the PCs' part, killing huge numbers of people, that breaks the control of the logger barons. That makes sense from a sociological viewpoint (and is cool in that respect) but it is rather depressing for the PCs.
Let me think about keeping my subscription.
By the way, I know you are into Chinese opera. Is Chinese opera as bloody as Western opera?
Chinese Opera has a grand amount of epic battle in it. It's pretty awe inspiring, but not really "bloody" in a "gory" sense.
Also, it's worth pointing out that TONS of my previous adventures have almost NO gore or torture pornish elements in them. I swear.
Check out Swords of Dragonslake, or Mask of Diamond Tears, or Chimes at Midnight, or Eyes of the Lich Queen, or Voyage of the Golden Dragon, or Library of Last Resort. I really just got into a few gory assignments lately where the horror was really called for. I am currently writing a GIGANTIC 124 page module at present that is very gore-light and very classic-sword-n-sorcery heavy. I'm also working on a few adventures for DI Dungeon that are gore light as well. I just got handed some sick ass asignments, cause I certainly don't balk at going to those places with my imagination and writing them in a fashion to lure others there with me (warm fuzzies at Sam and Jade...in the same thread! Crazy! Thanks for the shout outs gents...I DO want evil to be really evil, and I find this inspires players to really get into the story).
It should also be known that my personal gaming style is all about failure. Tragedy is a powerful storytelling tool, and in a place like Falcon's Hollow, heroes have a hard time triumphing. Sometimes the fight you win, wasn't the really important thing in life, and the real fight passed you by while you were myopically duking it out over territory already lost. Sometimes the only real sense of victory is when you just do what you can and try to pick up the pieces when it all falls apart anyways. To me, that's a true hero. The most moving heroics (to me at least) are not in overcoming adversity, but rather dealing with the horrific aftermath of a tragedy you were unable to avert, gritting your teeth through the tears and striving to continue the good fight in the face of abject failure and desperation. My favorite real life heroes are people who can admit when they didn't measure up and keep fighting the good fight, long after the battlefield is littered with pieces of their soul. This is my favorite kind of character to play.
But yeah, it can be a bummer sometimes, so I suggest ignoring or adapting the end of Carnival to suit your needs. Hangman is a bit of a bummer, but the PCs actions can make a Huge difference in the end, even more so in Edge of Anarchy. Hope those work out better for you jwl.
I say, keep being what you are Paizo. You can be the WotC lil brother, belching out secondary material for a market that will likely shell out because you're work is always quality, or you can leave your signature across the face of gaming and take many of us with you to the grave.
Does that sound too Jonestown?
OH YEAH!!!!!!
(just kidding)
Get out of here you sweetened sack of coloring!
When I was three I had a dream that Mr. Koolaid suddenly smashed through a book covered wall at night.
OH YEAAAAAAAAH!
It was an actual nightmare. That dude is terrifying if you think about it. Next thing you know he'll crash a funeral.
OH YEAAAAAAAAH!
So the Red Raven shouldn't be a serial killer who eats his victim's eyeballs? Now you tell me!
*crumples manuscript* *toss* *walks off*
No, but you could leave in the porn.
;)
GGG
One of the "problems" with Nick's adventures is the quality.
I can break out all the TSR Ravenloft adventures I have, read through them, and look for caffeine pills to stay awake.
I read one of Nick's adventures like Hook Mountain or Carnival, and it is "Sweet Jebus, claw my eyes out, cower in a swimming pool of holy water, and hope the flood lights do not go out for a week" before I am halfway finished.
At the end of a Ravenloft adventure, I hope I have not hurt the villain's feelings.
At the end of one of Nick's adventures I want to break out the holy avenger, trade all my feats for extra smiting, and grab a potion of lesser restoration to remove fatigue because I know I will be there awhile.
In a Ravenloft, the banality of everything - the villains, the victims, the evil, is repellant.
In one of Nick's adventures, the clarity of the presentation of the horror, gore, and evil make them repellant.
That is why I think they come off as so overwhelming, despite not being a sizable portion of the products overall. The images and possible consequences pursue you into the next adventure you like a slasher villain.
Worse even! It is like Imagionationland where all the evil characters are afraid of the kid who thought up the Woodland Critters.So . . .
The problem is that it is too good.
Maybe they should just make Nick write suckier. :-P
Sam,
Your post made my Holiday Week. Thanks my man. I remember chatting with you at Gencon to the above effect and it made me smile then too. Glad the adventures are doing for you what I wanted them to do! Rock out with the smite evil Sam! There is much of it out there, and a whole lot more to come
::Nick looks at his work schedule, gnashes his teeth and gets back to his battered keyboard::
:-)