I wish...of course, I'm also the one that got Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home because I wanted the recipes. :DSomething that my Cookbook of the Month clubWait..there's a Golarion Cookbook included in the subscription?
;)
Are Otik's Spiced Potatoes any good? :)
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The Pathfinder Chronicles subscription is *not* a selection of campaign setting books. It's a line of campaign accessories. That line includes those setting books, but it also includes map folios, item cards, and the Harrow deck. It may someday even include other product types, like Map Packs or Flip-Mats, or something else we haven't thought of yet (though none of those are currently planned). In short, it's a selection of products that we feel complements the Pathfinder subscription, and it's our response to people who have been asking for a "deluxe subscription."I'd also like to point out that this product may not ideal for people with limited monthly budgets. It's not a regular line where the product is always in the same format. The currently announced products include map folios, 64-page books, card decks, and even a 256-page hardcover. Some months, there are no products; other months, there may be three.
So, no, it's not for everyone. But I think the people who subscribe to it are going to have a *lot* of fun with it.
EDITED:
Yes, I would like to have a deluxe subscription which includes all Pathfinder supplements.Yes, I am aware that in contrast to the AP products the supplements will be more varied in frequency, content, size, and price.
No, from my point of view (like several others above) accessories are books and maps - not item cards. Actually the subscription details point this out, too: pdfs are part of the description - *escept* for item cards! :-( For me availability of all subscribed elements in digital form is critical, though.
But apart from that I don't seem to grasp two things:
1. I'd still need more item card packs in order to have a really usable deck (assuming that I don't happen to have all interesting cards in the one pack part of the subscription). So why is this supposed to be deluxe? It rather feels like "appetizer" (<- just my impression).
2. Am I right in assuming that I'd neither know in advance which products could be part of the subscription nor how expensive the deluxe subscription grows (depending on your output of accessories)?
I am really willing to spend some money on my favourite hobby (even more so if it is for Paizo products), but this sounds like issuing a blank cheque, in other words taking a financial risk hard to assess.
Or did I misunderstand something in this thread?
I'd be very grateful if someone from Paizo could enlighten me, for I am generally very willing to subscribe to the deluxe offer...
Cheers from Austria,
Günther
Hey GUnther,
We've been having it out with them about exactly this. Thanks for your 2c. Let's wait and see if they decide to add a "skip" button as this seems to be a standard feature in carte blanche subscriptions these days. I'm giving them a month before I resume b~!@%ing.
(More guys coming in with the same beefs, Vic)
Doesn't necessarily mean that the unhappy people outnumber the happy people.
If SirUrza had actually been talking about sheer numbers you would have made a good point--you get an A for effort.
What he said was:
Without the skip option, you're going to have 5 types of customers for Chronicles.
But thanks for keeping the thread alive, anyway, dude.
Chief Technical Officer
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A skip option would be allow you to plan for it appropriately though, wouldn't be guessing or predicting, you'd know who wanted it.
Print run sizes are set months in advance. So, assuming you can choose to skip right up until the release date, we would not have that data soon enough.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Am I right in assuming that I'd neither know in advance which products could be part of the subscription nor how expensive the deluxe subscription grows (depending on your output of accessories)? I am really willing to spend some money on my favourite hobby (even more so if it is for Paizo products), but this sounds like issuing a blank cheque, in other words taking a financial risk hard to assess.
Well, everything that will be part of this subscription will be found on the Pathfinder Chronicles product page.. We always announce products at least a couple of months in advance of their release, so you'll have some warning. (Even if you're totally not paying attention for months, you'll at least get the "your subscription product is about to ship" e-mail that will warn you shortly before we charge your card).
But yes, to some degree, nobody knows what's coming to this line after next August; Paizo hasn't yet committed to specific items beyond that. If you're not comfortable with that, I'd advise you avoid the subscription and just pick and choose the stuff you want.
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So what it boils down to is: It was decided that Item Cards would be part of the Chronicles Subscription.
Why?
I'm certain that this wasn't a decision made in a vaccuum. There is a reason for this choice. Since it seems to be a somewhat unpopular choice, I hope you'll revisit it.
My general contention is that item cards (while certainly something some people will be very happy to have) are not something that is important to include in the subscription.
Usually, when you choose to subscribe to a product you get a 'benefit'. It's good for the producer because [he] gets to more accurately guage print runs reducing his overhead, and it is good for the consumer because they get a 'bone'. Usually, subscriptions give a reduced price compared to regular retail. In this case, that is not an option. Instead, subscribers are getting a free PDF version of each product they order through subscription. They are actually paying more than compared to discounters (Amazon.com, for instance) and paying for shipping.
I admit, I like the PDFs. That's why I'm subscribing even though I GREATLY PREFER books. It can be useful to have a PDF even though I'd never read through it all the way. In any case, for paying more for the product than I could in other outlets and giving you the benefit of knowing in advance that I'm going to buy it, I'm getting the PDF, which doesn't REALLY cost you anything more than the book I'm getting. I'm still okay with that. But the Item Cards are an item that subscribers are paying extra shipping for and not getting any 'subscriber bonus'. They're not discounted for subscribers, they don't include anything that I wouldn't get if I bought it from my FLGS. For that reason they're not appropriate for the subscription. Subscription SHOULD equate to some benefit for the subscriber.
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Chief Technical Officer
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So what it boils down to is: It was decided that Item Cards would be part of the Chronicles Subscription.
Why?
Because it's a subscription to a product line, and we view those products as part of that line.
We know that not everybody likes it, but saying it's an "unpopular" choice is misleading. While this thread has quite a few posters that don't like it, it's also clear there are people who do—some have posted here, but most have no reason to do so. Plenty of people have already elected to start their subscription with the card deck, and others had already purchased it.
Remember, this was our response to people who were specifically asking for a deluxe subscription. We knew going in that people have different ideas about what that would include, and that that this subscription wouldn't be for everyone.
As for the benefit subscribers get for the cards, it's twofold. First, subscribers don't have to worry about missing them, and second, they get to combine shipping with their other subscription items, (which will probably work out to free shipping in most cases).
Again, we're talking about possibilities to let people opt out of some things.
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We know that not everybody likes it, but saying it's an "unpopular" choice is misleading. While this thread has quite a few posters that don't like it, it's also clear there are people who do—some have posted here, but most have no reason to do so. Plenty of people have already elected to start their subscription with the card deck, and others had already purchased it.
Just figured I'd chime in here (why not, I've been chiming in everywhere else :P) and give my opinion on this. I'm neutral on this whole issue; I'm not sure if I want them or not. So I'm subscribing and getting the cards. If I absolutely hate them I'll revisit my subscription decision in a couple months, before the next set of comes out. Do I hate them enough to cancel my entire subscription, or am I willing to eat the extra $10 every six months? Obviously, if I love them then everything's fine.
With this in mind, and since people currently can "opt-out" of the first deck, my suggestion would be to leave them in, then wait six months. If a bunch of people drop the subscriptions just before the next deck (or choose to skip it, if that option's instituted), then you can revisit the decision at that time. If very few people drop out (or skip), then obviously most of the subscribers want the deck, or at least don't mind getting it.
[Of course, I'm sure it'd be much more complex than this. You'd have to take into account the number of subscribers to PFC compared to the number of subscribers of PF, etc. But you get the basic idea. :)]
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We know that not everybody likes it, but saying it's an "unpopular" choice is misleading. While this thread has quite a few posters that don't like it, it's also clear there are people who do—some have posted here, but most have no reason to do so. Plenty of people have already elected to start their subscription with the card deck, and others had already purchased it.
And I've subscribed and don't want the cards. Just because they're subscribing, doesn't mean their happy. I have quite a few disillusioned friends that think speaking out doesn't help or work. It's possible, even plausible that people feel the same on this issue or don't actually read the forums to say anything.
I still say that an Accessories Subscription would be an excellent middle ground. People that want the cards can just subscribe to that and the Chronicles line could just be supplement books.
We know that not everybody likes it, but saying it's an "unpopular" choice is misleading. While this thread has quite a few posters that don't like it, it's also clear there are people who do—some have posted here, but most have no reason to do so. Plenty of people have already elected to start their subscription with the card deck, and others had already purchased it.And I've subscribed and don't want the cards. Just because they're subscribing, doesn't mean their happy. I have quite a few disillusioned friends that think speaking out doesn't help or work. It's possible, even plausible that people feel the same on this issue or don't actually read the forums to say anything.
'Keeping this thread alive' has come at cost of it being a contentious flame-bait thread.
I say Vic is right, who would want to enter this discussion late? If one's post is not 100% sympathetic to the 'no-card cause' it is ignored, or it's attacked.
'Keeping this thread alive' has come at cost of it being a contentious flame-bait thread.I say Vic is right, who would want to enter this discussion late? If one's post is not 100% sympathetic to the 'no-card cause' it is ignored, or it's attacked.
We all know a lot of people like the cards and we are not ignoring the people that do; I've read the other Chronicles threads. They asked to get the cards included and Paizo decided to include them and they're happy and posting like mad to that effect. We deserve to post our discontent and you'll notice that I have not gone into the happy customer threads and posted anything like "I hate the cards get rid of them."
Our objections are not about the usefulness of the cards, although the topic has come up. Nor our we asking to have them removed: we wanted an alternative and a "skip" button is the best suggestion so far (Sir Urza brought it up first and Vic brushed it off). I would describe this thread as being quite productive and I'm glad I started it. For heaven's sake, we have all read Vic's reply: they're going to discuss the matter.
And finally, who is getting flamed? Some of us have objected to weak arguments, others have objected to pointless interjections--I would hardly call that flaming. If someone comes in here now and tells us that we don't deserve a skip button, when having one does no harm to them, I think it's pretty obvious that they just want to start something. Thankfully, most of the people who post here are pretty civil, take other people's points into careful consideration, and they are just trying to pitch in and sort out the discontent of some of Paizo's loyal customers.
I don't know Vic, but I really appreciate him participating in this. HE came back after we kicked around a few of his weak arguments. He is listening, he is answering questions, he made some good points, and he is going to try and find a solution that benefits as many people as possible and makes money for Paizo. For the second time, in case you didn't see the first one:
We know that not everybody likes it, but saying it's an "unpopular" choice is misleading. While this thread has quite a few posters that don't like it, it's also clear there are people who do—some have posted here, but most have no reason to do so. Plenty of people have already elected to start their subscription with the card deck, and others had already purchased it.And I've subscribed and don't want the cards. Just because they're subscribing, doesn't mean their happy.
Did you subscribe and tell them to start the subscription with the cards, or did you skip them?
I'd say that starting the subscription "late", without getting the cards, will tell Paizo a bit about what you want.
I think right now, the customers have a great opportunity to make their opinion known, to "vote with their wallet", and show rather clearly how you feel about subscriptions with or without cards!
You can go and subscribe and skip the cards, and thus will get the benefit you get with subscribing, and that for several months at least (even if you decide to cancel the subscription before the second set of cards is shipped, you'll have had months of free PDFs and didn't have to pay a single card you didn't want.
Paizo will see how many people start their subscription after the cards and draw their conclusions: Of course, some of those people will skip the cards in their subscription because they already have bought them (and those who've bought them on this website will be clear cases for Paizo) and some who know they'll get them as gifts or whatever; however a lot of the people who start late will be those who want a card-less subscription. The higher that number, the greater the motivation to give us a way to get the books but not the cards.
If they see that half their subscriptions are without books, and few subscribers had already bought them on the side, I'm sure they will provide an option.
And I think that they might just provide an option nevertheless.
Again, my idea on this: Instead of doing a "skip this item" thing, there should be two different subscriptions, or a general option for the subscription (whatever is better implementable with your software): One is the subscription as it is now, the other is sans cards. That way there will be an extra batch of subscriptions of people who don't want the cards, but since this is an option you make right away, you can already guess at how many Crimson Throne decks you'll sell.
The nice part: since we can skip the first deck, and the second won't be out before may, people can use the normal subscription right now, without having to buy any cards they don't want to, and you'll have several months to implement this new subscription thing (since apparently things are hectic right now).
Oh, and I don't know whether I mentioned it, but I think item card pdfs are a great idea. ;-)
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Well, everything that will be part of this subscription will be found on the Pathfinder Chronicles product page.. We always announce products at least a couple of months in advance of their release, so you'll have some warning. (Even if you're totally not paying attention for months, you'll at least get the "your subscription product is about to ship" e-mail that will warn you shortly before we charge your card).But yes, to some degree, nobody knows what's coming to this line after next August; Paizo hasn't yet committed to specific items beyond that. If you're not comfortable with that, I'd advise you avoid the subscription and just pick and choose the stuff you want.
Hello Vic,
thanks for this information.
I see your arguments (also those mentioned further above) and give the subscription a try: I'll see if the item cards are to my liking and decide then whether to continue the subscription or not.
Don't consider me as enthusiastic as with my other Paizo subscriptions, though. Hopefully the item cards will be a blast. ;-)
Cheers,
Günther
Hi guys,
I have elected to go with the cards. I agree you might need more than one deck to make a real difference to the game but since I saw the free selection sent with a previous order I thought why not?
That said, I agree this is a more expensive subscription. Not that Paizo need me to defend them but I suspect certain other companies might have added the whole bunch into the basic subscription and been done with it. At least this way you dont have to take the subscription if you dont want it.
Kruelaid - Dont know if it helps but I plan to give my players a plastic A4 wallet to keep their character sheet and the item cards that represent their PC items in. They will get mighty nervous when I ask them to hand the cards over.
Elcian
Usually, when you choose to subscribe to a product you get a 'benefit'. It's good for the producer because [he] gets to more accurately guage print runs reducing his overhead, and it is good for the consumer because they get a 'bone'. Usually, subscriptions give a reduced price compared to regular retail. In this case, that is not an option. Instead, subscribers are getting a free PDF version of each product they order through subscription. They are actually paying more than compared to discounters (Amazon.com, for instance) and paying for shipping.
Not sure if this has been brought up somewhere else or not, but why doesn't the subscription have a PDF of the cards? One of the things I keep seeing is that people say they will need multiple sets to really make a go with them. If a PDF of the cards were included, being able to print them out as needed would certainly be a nice benefit. I know I'd certainly like that! :)
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@Kae Yoss -
I chose to start my subscription with the item cards. However, I don't think they should be included in the subscription. It sounds like they're probably going to figure out how to do a skip button, so I guess that's fine.
The thing is, even though I'm going to try to use the item cards despite my reservations, they don't need to be part of the subscription. They don't work with the other Pathfinder Products. To really get the benefit, one needs more item cards for 'non-AP specific items'. Since people are not able to get those cards from their subscription, they have to buy the item from Paizo in another fashion. If they have to buy the item from Paizo in another fashion, they obviously could do the same for the AP-specific cards.
For me, personally, it comes to this - I like supporting Paizo because they make great products and they always come across as real gamers. I stopped buying (completely) from WotC in part because I felt they 'got greedy'. I think it is important that Paizo avoid appearing greedy even though they are a business and do need to make money to survive. The thing is, when I feel that I'm being appreciated as a customer and they're doing everything possible to make me satisfied, I don't mind paying them money (notice my subscriber tags and Planet Stories is missing). If I feel that they care more for selling x units of item cards by forcing them as part of the subscription product (which I think should be focused on items with a free PDF) people like me will subscribe, but we'll be less enthusiastic. This situation and the Green Ronin sale both left a bit of a bad taste - but in the case of the sale, I know they're fixing it. That's great! It's a positive. That reaffirms my choice to keep buying from Paizo. But if too many other situations like the one regarding item cards crop up, I may stop supporting Paizo because I'll lose that 'rosy-colored view' of the company.
It's easy to like a company when you like their product, even when the company isn't 'nice' (socially responsible, customer focused, etc) and some things can be overlooked. However, when that view can no longer be maintained - that is a bad thing. Noboby wants to buy from an 'evil' company. Image matters. I think this is a great opportunity to make sure that Paizo keeps their generally sterling image.
We deserve to post our discontent and you'll notice that I have not gone into the happy customer threads and posted anything like "I hate the cards get rid of them."
Agreed. Whole heartedly. I support your right to lobby for a subscription plan that meets your needs. If you read my replies to Geraint, I’m pretty damn clear about that.
If I changed my stance at all, it was after Djoc posted. We are making a commitment, and that’s not something to be brushed aside. More on that later.
And I have read your posts. First you don’t want to carry them around. Then they’re a luxury expense. Now they’re an ecological waste. And I don’t list them like that to poke fun of you, each and every one of those is a perfectly valid argument, as is ‘I just don’t want them.’ And I have said as much. You’ve even quoted me saying that.
I never got a special ‘thank you’, but that’s okay- no need. I guess I didn’t say you were 100% right, or said something that could be construed as wholly supportive either.
Our objections are not about the usefulness of the cards, although the topic has come up. Nor our we asking to have them removed: we wanted an alternative and a "skip" button is the best suggestion so far (Sir Urza brought it up first and Vic brushed it off). I would describe this thread as being quite productive and I'm glad I started it. For heaven's sake, we have all read Vic's reply: they're going to discuss the matter.
Very true, and whether you believe me or not, I’m happy that it’s going to be discussed. If they come up with an option for you and the others, I won’t write them a letter of complaint. There were principles to be considered. You’re right, the debate is over. I think you, specifically, could have perused your ends by a different means, i.e. been more civil about it and not played the ‘wounded man screwed by the institution’ angle.
And finally, who is getting flamed? Some of us have objected to weak arguments, others have objected to pointless interjections--I would hardly call that flaming. If someone comes in here now and tells us that we don't deserve a skip button, when having one does no harm to them, I think it's pretty obvious that they just want to start something. Thankfully, most of the people who post here are pretty civil, take other people's points into careful consideration, and they are just trying to pitch in and sort out the discontent of some of Paizo's loyal customers.
Well, I said flame-bait, but I’ll grant you there was no outright flaming. However, in this specific post you’re a complete gentleman. Yet in previous posts you’re apologizing for your own tone. Which is it Krue?
And I have to decided to get the subscription. But please excuse me if I cancel it when you start pushing stuff that isn't campaign supplement. And no, I don't think cards are a supplement, they are an organizational aid.
Let's see what Cosmo has to say about this when guys start clocking off just before the cards ship, then back on after they ship.
And this might have been a joke, but it’s not all that funny. Particularly since the company makes financial decisions based on the number of subscribers. And overworking Cosmo doesn’t change anything other than making him miserable, or they have to hire more people (costing the company more money), or they give in to you because you’re taking advantage of the generous ability to cancel at any time. Honestly Kruelaid, I hope when this thread is a memory we can still be on good terms, but at the risk of that never happening: this is got to be one of the most unworthy things I’ve read on this board, especially from you. It’s disappointing.
Consumergasm. A great suggestion. Buy it because it is cheap. Even though you don't want it.
Making your point through sarcasm. Nice. No chance of that being flame-bait.
I just saw this. So only people who subscribe are committed to Paizo?
Commitment means paying for a product and shipping when you don't want the product? What a great lesson. The environment is going to pot and I'm supposed to just say go ahead and kill the tree and throw it in the mail so I can toss it in the can. Great.
You're right, Vic, I don't deserve the Chronicles pdfs.
;)
You’ll notice I left the smiley face. I don't think it was effective though.
We’ll skip over Disenchanter asking you to cool it.
You can cancel a subscription any time you want so how is this a promise. In fact, I do it for convenience, not because I want to signal my promise or commitment, nor is this about 'giving' to Paizo. They are a business providing products which I pay for. And I pay for a lot of Paizo products, not just those in my subscription. I put an Amazon.com order in with 2 Planet Stories titles last night.
Again, I see no reason to waste materials that I don't want. If I don't want them then I can't get something else I do want. So Chronicles pdfs are only for people who use cards. Nice.
This was your reply to Djoc. The last sentence is where you make your jab.. But your point about wasting materials is valid. Why blow a decent post with that one last poke in the eye?
And let’s take a break from tone and attitude, and let’s talk about the larger issue.
You cite this has nothing to do with commitment, promises, or ‘giving’, that’s its strictly business. Perfectly reasonable. However, if we start talking in terms of strictly business, you don’t need to subscribe. If the terms of the subscription don’t meet your needs, no one is twisting your arm. Period. But then you don’t you get the PDF’s and that somehow makes it unfair?
Djoc makes a great point. Every one of us will end up making some kind of compromise somewhere and somehow by agreeing to a subscription. The PDF is part of the compensation for inconvenience. It’s a payback for being a reasonably reliable predictable quantity in their planning.
Let’s use me as an example:
Hypothetical Watcher: I won’t be finished with Chapter One until December 29th. I really won’t need Chapters Five and Six for months from now. Send those books and PDFs when I tell you to Vic.
Hypothetical Vic: Well, that’s not really how our subscription works. You can cancel and buy those books individually when you need them.
Hypothetical Watcher: But I might not get the PDF’s!
Hypothetical Vic: Well, the PDF’s are subscription perk.
Hypothetical Watcher: But these early books are taking up space, and that money could stay in my back account. It’s wasteful to send books before I need them.
Hypothetical Vic: But that’s how our plan works, that is what we are offering..
Hypothetical Watcher: Well I want you to offer me something tailored to my preferences, because this is really unfair. And while we’re at it, I’m not a GameMastery Subscriber, but I’m being forced to buy the Guide to Darkmoon Vale, where I have none of the related modules. Darkmoon Vale has nothing to do with the first three AP’s, so why is it included with the Chronicles Subscription? Why isn’t it included with the GameMastery Subscription?
You see what I mean? Any one of us could theoretically find something to complain about, how our needs aren’t being met. Part of the commitment that Djoc was referring to is that we take the offer as it is presented, and the PDF is part of the compensation for doing that. If we don’t like it, we don’t have to subscribe. We don’t haggle about it. That’s business. Fortunately for you, by considering an “skip” option, you’re being treated better than you would treat the vendor in return.
It’s not that you don’t have some excellent points, but there’s a sense of ‘wounded entitlement’ in your posts that doesn’t jibe well with the ‘customer is always right’. You’re not a righteous guy standing up to the Man, you’re just one of a number of people who just don’t like the terms of the agreement. You don’t have to like it, but you don’t get to play victim either.
That’s all I have to say on the subject from here on out, other than a reply to DeadDMWalking to follow. They’re going to consider your request, and I’m not a vindictive guy.. I hope they can work it out for you. I haven’t posted a reply because I want to stop your agenda, I really have posted on the principal that I don’t think anybody has been treated unfairly here.
Again, hopefully we can leave this thread in the past someday.
Sincerely,
Jim Groves
Watcher
The thing is, even though I'm going to try to use the item cards despite my reservations, they don't need to be part of the subscription. They don't work with the other Pathfinder Products. To really get the benefit, one needs more item cards for 'non-AP specific items'. Since people are not able to get those cards from their subscription, they have to buy the item from Paizo in another fashion. If they have to buy the item from Paizo in another fashion, they obviously could do the same for the AP-specific cards.
For me, personally, it comes to this - I like supporting Paizo because they make great products and they always come across as real gamers. I stopped buying (completely) from WotC in part because I felt they 'got greedy'. I think it is important that Paizo avoid appearing greedy even though they are a business and do need to make money to survive. The thing is, when I feel that I'm being appreciated as a customer and they're doing everything possible to make me satisfied, I don't mind paying them money (notice my subscriber tags and Planet Stories is missing). If I feel that they care more for selling x units of item cards by forcing them as part of the subscription product (which I think should be focused on items with a free PDF) people like me will subscribe, but we'll be less enthusiastic. This situation and the Green Ronin sale both left a bit of a bad taste - but in the case of the sale, I know they're fixing it. That's great! It's a positive. That reaffirms my choice to keep buying from Paizo. But if too many other situations like the one regarding item cards crop up, I may stop supporting Paizo because I'll lose that 'rosy-colored view' of the company.
It's easy to like a company when you like their product, even when the company when the company isn't 'nice' (socially responsible, customer focused, etc) and some things can be overlooked. However, when that view can no longer be maintained - that is a bad thing. Noboby wants to buy from an 'evil' company. Image matters. I think this is a great opportunity to make sure that Paizo keeps their generally sterling image.
I realize that you were replying to someone else, DDM, but I want to chime in here. And then this thread will be rid of me…
There’s one big hole in your argument here, and it’s a critical element of a crime. That is, motive.
The Pathfinder Chronicles, to the best of my knowledge, were never originally intended to be a subscription based product. They were intended to be sold individually with no one getting a PDF. (I could be wrong, and if so- may a Paizo staff person please correct me).
Did Paizo come up with the idea, and then use it as a vehicle to offload Item Cards? No. Customers requested the subscription. Customers asked if they could get PDFs with the books. When Paizo asked what should be included, Customers told them to include the Item Cards.
Read it for yourself in the archives
Sebastian throws the idea out on September 5th. Vic Wertz asks people what they want included on September 11th.
Paizo is guilty of being responsive to customer feedback and giving people what they asked for.
Now, unfortunately, not everyone is now on board with what came out of that and following discussions. They have some pretty good reasons. Those are going to be considered.
But I don’t see any malfeasance or greed at play here. A product line was requested, the company responded, and then people took issue with it after the fact. The company only has to defend it’s image if that image is cast in a poor light unfairly.
As for the benefit subscribers get for the cards, it's twofold. First, subscribers don't have to worry about missing them, and second, they get to combine shipping with their other subscription items, (which will probably work out to free shipping in most cases).
So, there's no PDF for the Cards?
No bad feelings at all Jim. Although you are not doing that much better at avoiding snarky. If I knew neither how much you like to write nor how upset you get when someone disagrees with you, I would have been really flattered at the length of that response.
A lot of the stuff you said was already brought up, and my last few posts have mostly been to the effect that the objectors' points have been made and Paizo is going to revisit their Chronicles sub plans. They may decide that it's just not worth it and I plan to let it go when they do.
I am not playing a wounded customer. I am playing a pissed off consumer because I know what I want and I'm not getting it. I conscientiously chose the tone that expressed my sentiments.
I am amused that you would think it unworthy to do this, because as dirty as it was, it got the job done. It seems to me that sometimes getting things done does take a little ugliness. Kruel/Aid. Perhaps you mistook me for someone who politely rolls over when I'm given bad news, well, I certainly am not.
I'm not going to pull any punches here. There is one thing you are saying that I find laughable, and it comes about here:
You cite this has nothing to do with commitment, promises, or ‘giving’, that’s its strictly business. Perfectly reasonable. However, if we start talking in terms of strictly business, you don’t need to subscribe. If the terms of the subscription don’t meet your needs, no one is twisting your arm. Period. But then you don’t you get the PDF’s and that somehow makes it unfair?
Djoc makes a great point. Every one of us will end up making some kind of compromise somewhere and somehow by agreeing to a subscription. The PDF is part of the compensation for inconvenience. It’s a payback for being a reasonably reliable predictable quantity in their planning.
Of course, I never said it was unfair. I said I don't want the cards and I don't think they are an appropriate item to include. If you want to be inconvenienced by the things you buy then go ahead, but I certainly am not going to buy things I don't want. I suggest that anyone who is willing to just throw away that 30$ a year should just send it to me instead.
And BTW, Cosmo rocks, and I would never make his job harder, but it's not me making his job harder, is it. In fact, I was asking Vic how HE felt about making Cosmo's job harder by creating a subscription policy that is problematic.
Cosmo, do you see a Chronicles subscription above my name? No, because I love you dude, and I mean that in only the most non-stalking platonic kind of way, although those pix of you in the panties that I got through your bedroom window really should be posted.
No bad feelings at all Jim. Although you are not doing that much better at avoiding snarky. If I knew neither how much you like to write nor how upset you get when someone disagrees with you, I would have been really flattered at the length of that response.
A lot of the stuff you said was already brought up, for example:
I've read the other Chronicles threads. They asked to get the cards included and Paizo decided to include them and they're happy and posting like mad to that effect.
Then you:
When Paizo asked what should be included, Customers told them to include the Item Cards. Read it for yourself in the archives
And my last few posts have mostly been to the effect that the objectors' points have been made and Paizo is going to revisit their Chronicles sub plans. So why were you still taking issue on this page, and why didn't you call me out for being a dick earlier. Disenchanter did and I'm cool with his point. Whatever, that's neither here nor there. In the end, they may well decide that it's just not worth it to aloow skipping and I plan to let it go when they do.
I am not playing a wounded customer. I am playing a pissed off consumer because I know what I want and I'm not getting it.
I am amused that you would think it unworthy to do this, because as dirty as it was, it got the job done. It seems to me that sometimes getting things done does take a little ugliness. Kruel/Aid, get it? Perhaps you mistook me for someone who politely rolls over when I'm not getting the service I want--after all, I'm spending the money.
I'm not going to pull any punches here. There is one thing you are saying that I find laughable, and it comes about here:
You cite this has nothing to do with commitment, promises, or ‘giving’, that’s its strictly business. Perfectly reasonable. However, if we start talking in terms of strictly business, you don’t need to subscribe. If the terms of the subscription don’t meet your needs, no one is twisting your arm. Period. But then you don’t you get the PDF’s and that somehow makes it unfair?
Djoc makes a great point. Every one of us will end up making some kind of compromise somewhere and somehow by agreeing to a subscription. The PDF is part of the compensation for inconvenience. It’s a payback for being a reasonably reliable predictable quantity in their planning.
Of course, I never said it was unfair. I said I don't want the cards and I don't think they are an appropriate item to include. If you want to be inconvenienced by the things you buy, then go ahead, but I certainly am not going to buy things I don't want. I suggest that anyone who is willing to just throw away that 30$ a year should just send it to me instead.
And BTW, Cosmo rocks, and I would never make his job harder, but it's not me making his job harder, is it. In fact, I was asking Vic how HE felt about making Cosmo's job harder by creating a subscription policy that is problematic.
Cosmo, do you see a Chronicles subscription above my name? No, because I love you dude, and I mean that in only the most non-stalking platonic kind of way, although those pix of you in the panties that I got through your bedroom window really should be posted.
Yours Truly,
Karlis aka Kruelaid
PS And just like I started, no bad feelings, Watcher, I like your posts, and click on anything you pitch into a thread. Don't forget your wondrous item is in my campaign.
When I try to subscribe, it still lists a $9.99 subtotal even though I want to start with the Map Folio in February. Is that normal? Or is it showing the price for the Item Cards still?
Just wanted to make sure what that $9.99 was before I put the subscription through.
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Chief Technical Officer
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When I try to subscribe, it still lists a $9.99 subtotal even though I want to start with the Map Folio in February. Is that normal? Or is it showing the price for the Item Cards still?
Just wanted to make sure what that $9.99 was before I put the subscription through.
That's a bug. When you place the order, we need to authorize your card (basically, we make sure that it works, but we don't actually charge it). Right now, it's using the Item Cards as the item we base the authorization on, but, in your case, it really ought to be using the Map Folio. Hopefully Gary can solve that this week, but again, since we aren't actually charging your card, it doesn't really matter.
oh, man!
I edited my post above and look, now they are two. Gah! Now there are two posts totally not worth reading!
Hey Kruelaid!
This is the friendly congratulatory post. :)
You know when I was writing that post I did stop and consider the relative merit of saying anything. I had a thought of an episode of Justice League Unlimited. Captain Marvel and Superman are beating the crap out of each other over a misunderstanding, and Superman is losing.. that is until he catches Capt. Marvel transformed into Billy Batson and he clamps his hand over his mouth. "The fight's over son," Supes says. That was probably you and me once Vic said they were going to consider it.
But what the hell.. I do like to write. And, I once habored the idea that I'd like to be an attorney. In fact, that has been my daughter's goal since she was 13, and she recently got accepted to Michigan State University for business as a pre-law degree. 4.0 too.. whoohoo!
Anyway, you're right. I was snarky too. Being condescending is almost subconscious with me, and it's one of my traits I'm not proud of and I'd like to improve..
It feels good to walk peacefully. And, it's Paizo's fight now. And yeah, you accomplished your mission. That counts for something.
And I never forgot you cheered me up over the RPG Superstar contest. Ha, it made me really guilty the whole time I wrote it!
oh, man!
I edited my post above and look, now they are two. Gah! Now there are two posts totally not worth reading!
And that automatically retroactively makes me the winnah!
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Folks,
Today we had a long discussion about what is and isn't included in the Pathfinder Chronicles subscription, a topic that is clearly very important to a lot of the posters on this message board (and this thread in particular). As many of you no doubt know we here at Paizo take our customers' concerns very seriously, and we like to revisit decisions based on customer comments to ensure that we're providing the very best service we can.
To this end, it's become clear that some customers do not want all of the items currently slated to appear in the Pathfinder Chronicles subscription. Today we considered several options of how to deal with this concern, including giving customers a chance to "opt out" of certain items, launching "book only" subscriptions and even a few more complicated options.
At the end of the day, we have decided to leave the subscription offering "as is" for the foreseeable future.
We do not presently have the capacity to reprogram the subscription to allow for "opt-out" options, and we're honestly not thrilled about introducing that option in any event. If we let customers "opt out" of, say, Pathfinder Chronicles Item Cards, why not let them "opt out" of books by a particular Planet Stories author, or whole 6-month arcs of Pathfinder?
The purpose of these subscriptions is to provide _everything_ within a certain category. They are for completists and folks who want to be sure not to miss any products. If we had introduced a subscription without Item Cards or Map Folios or what have you, a lot of folks would be complaining that the subscriptions do _not_ provide everything, which is sort of the point of a subscription.
There's another element to this, too. Part of the value of a subscription for _us_ is that it helps us know how many of which products to print, how many we can reasonably expect to sell in the first month, etc. Allowing subscribers to pick and choose which products they do and don't want wreaks havoc on our ability to project sales and set responsible print runs. While that's not of the utmost importance to most readers, I assure you that it is of the utmost importance to us, as it keeps the doors open and the product flowing to the hands of customers.
Our editors select which products go in which lines, and they do so in a way that provides maximum value to the consumer. We're including Item Cards and Map Folios in the Pathfinder Chronicles subscription because we want that subscription to provide everything we can to help players and GMs maximize their Pathfinder experience. We believe all of the items in the line do this, and we wouldn't include them in the subscription if we didn't.
We understand that this approach will not appeal to everyone, and we likewise understand that a Pathfinder Chronicles subscription is an option that might not work for every gamer.
As the subscriptions move forward we commit to making what we feel are the best decisions of which products to include with an eye toward improving the Pathfinder experience. Sometimes we'll get the mix right for you, and sometimes we probably won't. But we'll always try, and we urge interested folks to give the subscription a try.
If you can't afford it or if the product mix doesn't appeal to you, we certainly understand. The Pathfinder Chronicles subscription option is not for everyone.
But if you're one of those gamers who wants absolutely everything related to the Pathfinder Chronicles campaign setting, we've got you covered.
Thanks again for the feedback on this topic. We'll continue to monitor comments on the issue and consider suggestions as they come to us.
Sincerely,
Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC
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Reply Take Two.
I wrote a fairly long reply, but I don't think it really said what I wanted it to say, so let me start again.
I really enjoy the products that Paizo makes. While I understand the reasoning and the decision you've announced, I still disagree. So strongly, in fact, that I was very tempted to cancel my subscriptions and pending orders.
In this particular case, even though I WANT the item cards, I don't think they fit in with the other products in the subscription. In the end, I decided that it wasn't worth it to me to make the point considering all the other things Paizo has done right.
I understand that a subscription product should include the 'full line', but in this case, I think the inclusion of the cards was a mistake. They simply don't fit with the other products in part because there is no PDF available.
The reason I object has to do with the fact that if someone is unhappy with the subscription because of a lack of completeness, they can simply add that item to their cart, and in a few weeks they'll even be able to combine the shipping with their subscription. A customer who doesn't want the product doesn't have that choice. So, when these kinds of decisions come in the future, I hope you'll err on the side of caution and choose only to include the items that really are 'integral' to the product.
Just as T-Shirts aren't required, but completists may want them, the item cards aren't required. I'm subscribing for the 'Gazeteer' elements that will flesh out the world. As cool as the item cards are - despite the fact that I want them - I just don't think that they belong.
So, while I understand while you're going with your editor's judgement, I hope they'll use this experience to anticipate reactions like this in the future and err on the side of caution, remembering that people can easily add to their subscription, but not so easily subtract.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Fair enough, and I should say that we know this is an issue and will continue to revisit it periodically to determine if we've made the right choice. We appreciate all customer feedback, good and bad, and we'll definitely keep in touch as this subscription continues to make sure that we're meeting with the readers' approval. For now we are aiming to provide the most "complete" Pathfinder Chronicles subscription we can. If that turns out to be a mistake, we will make the appropriate changes. But for the time being, the Pathfinder Chronicles subscription will contain one set of item cards per Adventure Path.
We hope you enjoy them.
--Erik
Plenty of people have already elected to start their subscription with the card deck...
Just to give my thoughts to Paizo.
I am really not interrested in the item cards, but even so, I started my subscription with the item card. The reason for this, is that I am not going to have the Crimson item set, the Second Darkness item set, and so forth, without owning the Runelords set.
However, if I could decide, this subscription should include only items where we would also get the pdf, this is after all the reason I chose a subsription, rather than just ordering. I could then choose to buy the Harrow deck seperately.
Lastly, as have been mentioned earlier in this thread, this subscription is more or less a card blanche for Paizo to charge our credit cards. In other words, it is more or less for those who doesn't really care if it costs $10 or $50 a month. And to send an extra $20 to Paizo each year, well I really don't care.
Just keep the quality up.
Fair enough. Thanks for considering it, Erik, Vic and everyone else in on your marketing choices.
I'll think about trying it out, but for now, when I add in the postage and the cards I don't want, there is no benefit to me even with the pdfs. For me, they are only useful for their portability, and I can make my own if necessary.
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Lastly, as have been mentioned earlier in this thread, this subscription is more or less a card blanche for Paizo to charge our credit cards. In other words, it is more or less for those who doesn't really care if it costs $10 or $50 a month.
I'd like to comment on this particular issue, directed to the Paizo staff. While I've signed up for the PC subscription, I'd like to see the release rate "smoothed out" a bit. Currently, there are three products set to release in February, and 2 in March, May, and August, but none in January, April, June, or July. I'd prefer it if these were spread out a bit more, or at least cap it at 2 products in any given month. I don't expect you to change your current release schedule, but it'd be nice to see a more even distribution of the releases in the future.
And yes, while it does give Paizo a bit of a carte blanche to charge our credit cards, this subscription was done at *our* request. This is something we asked for, and were warned by the staff that the release schedule would be sporadic, with some months have several items and some having none. So I can't really fault Paizo for the variable charges to my card.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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We will definitely "smooth out" the release schedule of Pathfinder Chronicles products as time goes on. As you note, we didn't really create this line with a subscription in mind, so now that that's a factor we will be moving toward a more regularly spaced-out stream of releases. That stream will probably include a few items like hardcovers, but we will not go overboard with this and will give lots of warning well in advance.
Thanks again to everyone for subscribing!
Now that the cards are definetly in, may I suggest again that we get PDFs for those, too?
When I try to subscribe, it still lists a $9.99 subtotal even though I want to start with the Map Folio in February. Is that normal? Or is it showing the price for the Item Cards still?
Just wanted to make sure what that $9.99 was before I put the subscription through.
That's a bug. When you place the order, we need to authorize your card (basically, we make sure that it works, but we don't actually charge it). Right now, it's using the Item Cards as the item we base the authorization on, but, in your case, it really ought to be using the Map Folio. Hopefully Gary can solve that this week, but again, since we aren't actually charging your card, it doesn't really matter.
Ahh, excellent! Thanks! :)
I just wanted to make sure that the Subscription was going to be starting with the correct item I chose. Thanks a lot for the explanation Vic.
Side note: My honest and sincere regrets to those that didn't get the deal best suited to them. I say no more.
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NEW TOPIC
Now that the cards are definetly in, may I suggest again that we get PDFs for those, too?
Okay, KaeYoss... You've been asking for these and not really getting any answers or any one to engage the topic.... so let's see if we can draw out some discussion. :D
I'd like to see PDF's for the cards too. :) See? You're not alone.
I've never mentioned on how I intend on using the item cards, and it's quasi-relevant. I plan on scanning them all into image files and then printing them on either cardstock, or paper and then attaching them to a 3" x 5" index card. The reason for this is varied-
1.) Nobody gets them grubby, even on accident
2.) I can re-use them ad-infintum
3.) Have multiple copies of any one card, so I can say "This image is the cure light wounds potion, of which my players will find 11 before the first Chapter is over."
4.) Never have to write on them. Never have to mess with tiny post-it-notes, which beg the question of 'why did you even get these stupid cards if you're going to use post-it-notes?'
5.) I have the entire back of them to write on, to include the flavor text, spell description (in the case of wands) with damage, save, range, and so on. I can even make a little bunch of check boxes for charges. Basically no one has to reference another book, making play more efficient.
6.) My players are all great folks, but in a worse case scenario, I never have to say, "Hey, could I have my item card and my little plastic sleeve back?"
7.) I don't have to lug them around. I can just have the bunch I need for that night's session ready if I need them.
I can do this. I have a color scanner and printer. Disadvantage is the work, but I kinda like artsy crafty type of stuff.
You might be asking yourself, "Well bully for you Jim, what the hell does this have to do with the question of can we get PDF's of the cards?
Obviously I don't speak for Paizo. But if I had to guess, I would imagine there would be concern about them being posted to the internet, and ergo no one would buy them. They'd steal them. Or, you'd only need to buy them once.
I would never ever share my scans, because that's taking food off of people's table, I would/will use them strictly for my own use in my own game. Unfortunately, not everyone is that honest.
You see with the modules and AP's, you have the watermark. Which doesn't stop illegal downloads, but it can deter it. I think that's the issue you're looking it.
One could watermark the cards, on the face, along side the left edge for example. But that might necessitate 52 different PDF files per a single deck. Let's say we get lucky and they decide they can see their way to doing that, that could still represent a lot of work, and time = $ and productivity.
Having said that, I'd love to get PDF's of the cards too. It would make my life easier. I'm not holding my breath though. You see, no one has been answering the request for PDF's of the cards- perhaps there is a desire not to put the thought in anybody's head.
On the other hand, I'm not a rocket scientist, and I thought of it.
Even still, KaeYoss, now that someone has pointed right at the 300 lb gorilla.. maybe we can talk about it now.
Any snarkiness, this time, was strictly unintentional!
Erik,
I would like to thank you and the rest of the folks at Paizo for considering all the options for a Pathfinder Chronicles subscription. While I respect the decision you made, I feel it was the wrong one. Since there is a fairly substantial number of people who want a Pathfinder Chronicles subscription, but do not want the item cards, Paizo is missing out on committed sales from this group of people. You would not have to set it up as an "opt-out" type of subscription. Rather, it would be an entirely different subscription, which just so happens to mirror the other one, but without the cards. Paizo would get even more people making a long-term commitment and everyone would be getting a subscription that suits their needs.
I believe I was one of the first people to mention subscribing until the cards come out, cancelling for that month, then restarting after the cards ship. It may have been taken as a joke by some people, but I am serious about it. I am still considering just that sort of action. I want to get all the maps, gazetteers, heck even the t-shirts would be great, but I just don't get the attraction of the item cards. I received a packet of cards with my Green Ronin Sale items. Those arrived yesterday, thank you. The cards would take up a lot of space in storing characters, plus there's the chance of players losing them. Let's not forget that once you write on them it's hard to change the card. I just can't wrap my mind around how these things are more than a novelty.
Since these cards, unlike just about everything else in the Pathfinder Chronicles subscription, do not come with a pdf, there's nothing really compelling about getting them. At least the maps and other items in the subscription come with a pdf, so you can print out as many copies as you want, altering to your hearts content. Everything but the cards, at least, comes with the bonus of an electronic version. That is the main reason, for me at least, to subscribe. I want the electronic version, so I can take it on my flash drive to work and read it there, or print out copies of the maps for the players. The electronic copies are what really make the subscription worth the cost.
The cards are, at least for me, useless. I would gladly spend money on the maps and gazetteers, using them in playing the adventure paths and later on in my homemade adventures. The cards, on the other hand, would just sit in a box unused. I might try selling them on eBay, or giving them away, but it would generally be a waste of money.
I think it's a real shame you decided against offering a cardless subscription. Instead of getting all those additional subscribers, and they money, Paizo just may get nothing out of those folks. People like myself now have to really think about what we want to do with our money. Do we: 1. just subscribe and figure out how to get rid of the unwanted cards; 2. buy the items and (possibly) their pdfs individually when they come out (a costly endeavour); 3. do the subscribe-cancel-resubscribe dance (which will surely annoy you folks); 4. or just not bother with them at all.
I know that I was hoping to be able to get the Pathfinder Chronicles stuff to build my own campaign after running the Rise of the Runelords adventures. Now I am trying to decide if I want to go through the hassle or should I just use some other setting when we're done. Currently I am a bit disillusioned by my recent experiences with Paizo. I am thinking I should hold off and make a decision after the holidays. There should be time then to weigh the pros and cons and make a decision.
Well, enough of me whining and complaining. Time to move on to more constructive things.
Stephen
One could watermark the cards, on the face, along side the left edge for example. But that might necessitate 52 different PDF files per a single deck. Let's say we get lucky and they decide they can see their way to doing that, that could still represent a lot of work, and time = $ and productivity.
Sorry to quote myself, but I was thinking about this for awhile. The process might not be as difficult as I thought. I'm just not sure of what you can do with Adobe and the watermarking process.
If you saved each card as a small 'page', in a single file, perhaps it would work. I just don't know enough to be sure.
In any case, I think that is the issue with getting PDF's of the cards, that is, the concern about illegal downloading.
If there is a way to get PDF's of the cards though, it would sure be swell.
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We will definitely "smooth out" the release schedule of Pathfinder Chronicles products as time goes on. As you note, we didn't really create this line with a subscription in mind, so now that that's a factor we will be moving toward a more regularly spaced-out stream of releases. That stream will probably include a few items like hardcovers, but we will not go overboard with this and will give lots of warning well in advance.
Cool, thanks for the info! And thanks again for keeping the customer in mind, as always, with all your decisions. :)
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I think it's a real shame you decided against offering a cardless subscription. Instead of getting all those additional subscribers, and they money, Paizo just may get nothing out of those folks. People like myself now have to really think about what we want to do with our money. Do we: 1. just subscribe and figure out how to get rid of the unwanted cards; 2. buy the items and (possibly) their pdfs individually when they come out (a costly endeavour); 3. do the subscribe-cancel-resubscribe dance (which will surely annoy you folks); 4. or just not bother with them at all.
Personally I'm not satisfied. I think it's a joke that the cards are in the Pathfinder Accessories AND Chronicles section. They could have just created a Pathfinder Accessories subscription and pulled the cards out of Chronicles all together. That would have allowed them to handle 2 different kinds of customers, those that want the cards, those that don't want the cards without recoding the whole site.
I'm still undecided as to what I'm going to do about the cards. I'm thinking about going with option 3 there SJMiller, though I may just cancel the subscription and buy the books individually. If I need an electronic copy of something for reproduction I already know how to get it.
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Personally I'm not satisfied. I think it's a joke that the cards are in the Pathfinder Accessories AND Chronicles section.
Just for clarification, this is done all over the site. Some books are listed in multiple "sibling" categories, because they fit those categories. For instance, the True20 Freeport Companion by Green Ronin is listed in both the True20 and Freeport sections of their Roleplaying Games category. So this isn't something they've just done with the item card deck so they can shoehorn it into the PC subscription.
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I am currently a Chronicles Subscriber (starting after the first item cards).
So if there is not going to be a "skip this item" option for the item cards, or a separate "no item cards" type of subscription, can we get an easy button for "unsubscribe/subscribe"?
A "skip this item" that has to be selected by the customer many months before it ships would not mess with your production quantities - you would have your estimate prior to sending it out to print. You can even have a deadline on the item, 'opt out before month/date/year' otherwise it will be included in your ongoing subscription.
A number of folks unsubscribing right before your item cards ship - now that ~will~ mess with your print estimates.
This sounds like I am joking about the easy button, but I am serious. At this time, I do plan to cancel my Chronicles subscription before the next item cards. I may or may not sign up again after those the item cards. It will all depend on how this issue evolves. I don't want to come and go as a subscriber (and annoy Cosmo) but I also don't want to commit to a subscription that includes item cards. I just want the books/maps and the pdf's that go along with them.
Another completely separate way to handle this is not a subscription, but simply "get the free pdf with any ~Preordered~ Chronicles books/maps" Again you can have a cutoff date so you have firm numbers before you start your printing.
Just food for thought...
Lori
Are Otik's Spiced Potatoes any good? :)
Yes. They were the first things that I tried. :)
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A few comments, to those who still post after Erik has let us know his decision. And be prepared to a really long post!
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OK, let's see where we are with this discussion:
We have about a dozen posters that disagree that the item cards be included. Many of them clearly states they are seriously considering to use one of the following strategy: 1) No sub, buy what I want, buy PDF separately if needed (or get it some "other" way). 2) Sub, but cancel and re-sub to avoid cards. 3) Want an "opt-out" for certain products, if not all.
Their main arguments: They don't like cards, can't see how they can be useful, they don't get PDFs for them, they're more "goodies" then "accessories", Paizo will lose money because they'll lose some customers for the sub.
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We have about 4-5 posters that are for the inclusion of the cards.
Their arguments are: $20 USD per YEAR (two decks at 10$) will bankrupt nobody, Paizo can do as they wish, they asked for an all-inclusive sub, item cards can be useful, commitment (the same commitment for everyone, to give Paizo information and get some nice things in return), they are not necessary the only product that could not be wanted by everyone and that's the nature of a sub.
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We have Paizo staff posting they discussed the thing on all aspects, considered all arguments and made the discision to keep thenm in the sub. They also said this decision will be revised over time, but the main thing will not change in the near future.
Their arguments are: They see enough link between the cards and Golarion to keep them in, they've already seen a lot of people subscribe either starting with RotR cards or that bought the cards already before the sub was on.
Arguments against "opt-out" options for someor all product: "Give a finger and they'll take the arm" (as in, give the right to opt-out of a couple products and you'll be asked for the option for all products, because there's worthy arguments for each one), they need to know how much to print many months in advance, they want to make the commitment the same for everyone.
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Now, do we want to argue this thing for many more pages? Everyone as good points, which fits their own point of view. People asked for an all-inclusive super-sub to get all products. Nobody said everyone had to subscribe to it. The products are available to be cherry picked by anyone, at the same price.
Sub bonus/rewards you miss: Free PDFs and have it shipped 2 weeks earlier. The "free/combined" shipping will not be a bonus anymore once anybody can ask for other orders to be added to monthly subscriptions shipment.
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One point that was not said here: I think we're spoiled. By Paizo themselves. Often, we ask for soemthing and get it. We ask for a sub and get it. We ask for a product and get it. We ask for spoilers on future products and get them. We ask to get orders modified/combined/canceled, we get it. We even ask they change their computer system to protects against edge cases (GR sale) and we get it.
We chat weekly with publishor, editors, authors and other staff. We get answered in a few days time by customent service for our concerns/problems. We get answers by the CEO herself. We sometimes get answers before the question was asked (at least JJ did that once) because the Paizo staff is constantly on the boards answering small requests for clarifications.
Paizo is very customer-friendly, customer-aware and they listen to their customers. They often do exactly as they have been asked. This time, people have made their request, stated their points, and Paizo has AGAIN listened by discussion the matter internaly to decide if they should review their position. But then, we are still not entirely satisfied, and restart the discussion over again.
And now I'm seeing things like "I will quit Paizo if this one thing doesn't change" and "I don't feel 100% satisfied with Paizo and I'm thinking to stop every buisness I have with them". I think we owe them better than threatening them or playing with their feelings in trying to change their mind. Sorry if that seems rude, but I'm hearing a children's voice saying "BANG!, you're dead, else I'm not playing anymore!". (Flame me for that, if you wish. That's still the way I see some comments that were made, be it the intention of the poster or not.)
What will happen when one possible subscriber will look at upcomming products and think "I don't have the Modules sub, I don't need to Guide to Darkmoon Vale, so I want this product out of the sub!" or "I only have a sub to Modules but not PF, what use are the very AP-specific map folios to me? I want them out my sub!" or "Softcovers I can afford, but the hardcover CS is too expensive for me, so get it out of my sub!"? Say for a minute the cards are out and you are 100% happy with your Chronicles sub, would you agree to let them cross those products they don't like but get the same benefits as you do?
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Ok, by now you know I'm in the "pro-cards" gang. I'm not the biggest fan of the cards neither, but if Paizo feels like they should be part of the sub, it's OK with me. I already ordered the RotR to see what they did with it. Even if I don't like, it's a small thing to still buy them. I feel like 20 USD a year wont hurt me. For the rest of the Chronicles line, I get the free PDFs, am sure it's shipped rapidly and get it 2 weeks before non-subscribers.
Plus I give money to persons I feel not only do great products, but are also available to answer me and discuss with me. I sure want to support those people!
[Last comment, again on the cancel-resubscribe thing: If Paizo allows that, for no good reason, I will feel cheated. I have 100% confidence that Paizo staff and customer service are fair people, and I expect they deal with customers trying to cheat their generosity with closed doors. They have better things to do, and better issues to attend to, than people who want the candy (free PDFs) without the money (commitment).]
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I am currently a Chronicles Subscriber (starting after the first item cards).
So if there is not going to be a "skip this item" option for the item cards, or a separate "no item cards" type of subscription, can we get an easy button for "unsubscribe/subscribe"?
Sorry, but that would be like a slap in the face of those who subscribe/subscribed for good. I urge Paizo to never allow that!
A "skip this item" that has to be selected by the customer many months before it ships would not mess with your production quantities - you would have your estimate prior to sending it out to print. You can even have a deadline on the item, 'opt out before month/date/year' otherwise it will be included in your ongoing subscription.
That's a nice idea I also thought of after Vic mentioned the fact subs were used to design printing runs. I didn't post it for the same reasons I don't like the "skip" button, and that is the "commitment" and "bonus" thing. And also, that's good until you start getting people saying they missed the deadline and how deadlines are "unfair" and all, and then want to cancell products after that cutoff. I don't feel it solves the problem. Paizo will probably lose customers that way.
Another completely separate way to handle this is not a subscription, but simply "get the free pdf with any ~Preordered~ Chronicles books/maps" Again you can have a cutoff date so you have firm numbers before you start your printing.
Preordering look good for people in the backyard of Paizo (read in the USA). People living the other side of the world have to make packages bigger to save on S/H. Add the many months cutoff date for those pre-orders, and it makes it even harder for foreign people who have to plan their packages.
And I don't think Paizo wants cherry-picking in any way. They want commitments, so they know they can continue the line and feel confortable enough with the success of future products. That way, they can commission authors and artists for products due in 4-6 months with less risk, which means better quality products.
And I don't think Paizo wants cherry-picking in any way. They want commitments, so they know they can continue the line and feel confortable enough with the success of future products. That way, they can commission authors and artists for products due in 4-6 months with less risk, which means better quality products.
You know, I had a long, rambling, sometimes snarky sounding post to your previous comment, but I decided not to use it. I didn't think, after all, that it added any real substance to the discussion. This time, however, I think I can add something.
You say that Paizo wants committment to better judge their product lines. I agree, they do want that. They want to know what people desire and what they do not desire. Some people desire to give Paizo lots of money for Pathfinder Chronicles subscriptions. Some people would love to give Paizo lots of their money for a Pathfinder Chronicles subscription that does not contain item cards. Both are showing their committment to Paizo. Both are telling Paizo what they desire and what they do not desire. I do not see how either group is any less committed to showing their support to Paizo and showing what they want.
All of that aside, didn't Erik say he wanted to hear our thoughts on their decision? Didn't he say he wanted to know this for when they review their decision at an unspecified future date? That's all we're really doing here.