I heard a rumor that each year we shall see a new Players Handbook, DMG, and a Monster Manuel to support 4E. They will be numbered (example: Players Handbook 2 in 2009). What do you think about that? Of course I know you only need the core 3 books to run 4E, but still if I want the other classes like Bard, Barbarian, and Monk I have to buy another book? Seems a little wack to me.
Did you also ever notice that the number 4 on your key board is shared by the $? Kinda creepy.
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There is currently a PHB2, DMG2 & MM5, so this is not as alarming as one would like to think.
Maybe they are gonna do them instead of the Complete series? At the moment the Complete books have other Base Character Classes in them as well as extra PrC, Feats, Spells & Items. They may look at the PHBx to introduce new (Non-Core) Base Classes, Feats & Spells and the DMGx to introduce new PrC & Items.
This does make some sense as long as we DON'T see a return of the Complete Books. Although given the money hungering ways of Wizards (Hasbro) atm, I can't see this being the way it will be. More likely we will still see the Complete Books (or their equivalent) as well.
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The difference is that the current PHB2, DMG2, and MM2-5 are completely optional. The PHB2, DMG2, and MM2 in 4.0 are going to have classes, races, and monsters that by all rights should be core and thus included in the first 3 books. That is the problem. You now have to wait several years and buy 6 to 9 books just to get all the the basic material. This is blatant milking of the D&D cash cow and treats D&D fans like sheep that will buy anything. In my eyes, this is totally unacceptable behavior, and is one more very good reason not to switch to 4.0.
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The difference is that the current PHB2, DMG2, and MM2-5 are completely optional. The PHB2, DMG2, and MM2 in 4.0 are going to have classes, races, and monsters that by all rights should be core and thus included in the first 3 books. That is the problem. You now have to wait several years and buy 6 to 9 books just to get all the the basic material. This is blatant milking of the D&D cash cow and treats D&D fans like sheep that will buy anything. In my eyes, this is totally unacceptable behavior, and is one more very good reason not to switch to 4.0.
I agree. Even if I am blown away by the mechanics of 4E, the Cost-Benefit Analysis cannot be ignored. 3E, for all its drawbacks, isn't that bad.
The difference is that the current PHB2, DMG2, and MM2-5 are completely optional. The PHB2, DMG2, and MM2 in 4.0 are going to have classes, races, and monsters that by all rights should be core and thus included in the first 3 books. That is the problem. You now have to wait several years and buy 6 to 9 books just to get all the the basic material. This is blatant milking of the D&D cash cow and treats D&D fans like sheep that will buy anything. In my eyes, this is totally unacceptable behavior, and is one more very good reason not to switch to 4.0.
The alternatives being
(a) publish 1/4 the information necessary to play all the core classes, races, prestige classes, feats, spells and magic items in the core rule books, and then another 1/4 a year later, etc.
(b) make the core rule books four times as big, and thus, four times as expensive
(c) leave out the artwork, which takes up about half the book (even more, for the MM). People who want pictures of orcs can buy a 3.0 MM on the internet for about $2.
(d) say that the core races et al. are it, and there will never be new core rulebooks until 5.0 comes out.
D&D players demonstrate a startling level of entitlement, like they have the right to demand that WOTC support every element of the 3.5 game system ever included forever, unchanged; it's a little surprising to me how much those players are willing to whine about how many books they'll need to buy when a new edition is published. They want the latest version of the rules, in three books, when the current rules take up an entire shelf? Too effing bad.
So anyone running an Eberron 4e campaign won't get official info until 2010 (I'm assuming FR will come first)? It looks like they'll get hosed.
My feeling is that as long as all of the rules that I need to play the game are in the PHB and the DMG then I'll be fine. I haven't bothered to purchase anything beyond those two for 3.5 and what I did purchase beyond that for 3.0 was mostly a waste. I'll probably buy the first MM just to get a feel for how monster should work.
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I don't have a problem with WotC wanting to release more "core" books. What bothers me is that if these new releases are considered core, then WotC won't feel obligated to include specific information about the newer races, classes, magic items, creatures, etc. in new adventure material. You'll need the books in order to make proper use of the adventure. The same may easily be true for any other publisher putting out official DnD products.
95% of my 3.x adventure material includes all the information necessary to run the adventure without any of the additional supplements (exceptions being FR adventures, which many times call for the FR campaign setting and some others). To this day, the only additional 3.x book I have beyond core is the Manual of the Planes. I'd really rather not have another 2e-like golf bag of supplements. But, we'll see.
Hopefully WotC requires only core #1 books for their material. Otherwise, it's going to be more expensive to play the game with published adventures as time goes on, and of course, that can hurt their business.
D&D players demonstrate a startling level of entitlement, like they have the right to demand that WOTC support every element of the 3.5 game system ever included forever, unchanged; it's a little surprising to me how much those players are willing to whine about how many books they'll need to buy when a new edition is published. They want the latest version of the rules, in three books, when the current rules take up an entire shelf? Too effing bad.
Actually I want core books that have core races and classes that I've played for years... nothing more and nothing less.
The PHB needn't have tieflings, aasimar, warforged, eladrin or any other funky race. It should have the classic core races that have been in the game for years: dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings, half-orcs, half-elves and humans.
The PHB needn't have new core classes either. The standard classes of cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, paladin, wizard, rogue and monk would do just fine.
The new edition will have too many new additions that just don't jibe with me and what I feel D&D should be. And that's why I'm bidding D&D adieu until it resembles good ol' D&D again.
The difference is that the current PHB2, DMG2, and MM2-5 are completely optional. The PHB2, DMG2, and MM2 in 4.0 are going to have classes, races, and monsters that by all rights should be core and thus included in the first 3 books. That is the problem. You now have to wait several years and buy 6 to 9 books just to get all the the basic material. This is blatant milking of the D&D cash cow and treats D&D fans like sheep that will buy anything. In my eyes, this is totally unacceptable behavior, and is one more very good reason not to switch to 4.0.The alternatives being
(a) publish 1/4 the information necessary to play all the core classes, races, prestige classes, feats, spells and magic items in the core rule books, and then another 1/4 a year later, etc.
(b) make the core rule books four times as big, and thus, four times as expensive
(c) leave out the artwork, which takes up about half the book (even more, for the MM). People who want pictures of orcs can buy a 3.0 MM on the internet for about $2.
(d) say that the core races et al. are it, and there will never be new core rulebooks until 5.0 comes out.
D&D players demonstrate a startling level of entitlement, like they have the right to demand that WOTC support every element of the 3.5 game system ever included forever, unchanged; it's a little surprising to me how much those players are willing to whine about how many books they'll need to buy when a new edition is published. They want the latest version of the rules, in three books, when the current rules take up an entire shelf? Too effing bad.
Actually, what I think a lot of people want (or were expecting) is that the same material in the 3.0/3.5 PHB/DMG/MM (which I believe is currently considered the core material) would also be in the 4E PHB/DMG/MM (i.e. classes, races, spells, and monsters) as opposed to spread across multiple books. Many people I think have come to expect certain things to be included in the minimum material needed to play the game and WoTC has decided to change it and swap a few things out. So while the material being swapped out will be included in books later people feel that they will need to buy multiple books to get what is currently considered the core material.
So anyone running an Eberron 4e campaign won't get official info until 2010 (I'm assuming FR will come first)? It looks like they'll get hosed.
FYI - Forgotten Realms will be released Summer 2008.
Eberron will be released Summer 2009 (though looks like some Eberrony stuff will be in the first Monster Manual, including warforged, but no specifics revealed yet). So, yeah, they'll still have to wait 1 year (but not 2 years like mentioned above).
No word at all on a possible 2010 campaign setting (even info on if it will be an old or a new one or if they will do one at all).
So anyone running an Eberron 4e campaign won't get official info until 2010 (I'm assuming FR will come first)? It looks like they'll get hosed.FYI - Forgotten Realms will be released Summer 2008.
Eberron will be released Summer 2009 (though looks like some Eberrony stuff will be in the first Monster Manual, including warforged, but no specifics revealed yet). So, yeah, they'll still have to wait 1 year (but not 2 years like mentioned above).
No word at all on a possible 2010 campaign setting (even info on if it will be an old or a new one or if they will do one at all).
Thanks for the info Ken. I'm a player in an Eberron campaign right now, our group is staying with 3.5 for now anyway.
Actually, what I think a lot of people want (or were expecting) is that the same material in the 3.0/3.5 PHB/DMG/MM (which I believe is currently considered the core material) would also be in the 4E PHB/DMG/MM (i.e. classes, races, spells, and monsters) as opposed to spread across multiple books. Many people I think have come to expect certain things to be included in...
What I've been seeing a lot of is "I want everything that I use in my campaign to be in the core rules." So, pretty much everything in the PHB, DMG and MM, plus some stuff from each of the Completes, the Races books, some of the monsters from MM2 and the Fiend Folio, some psionics rules would be nice... multiplied by as many people as you see posting here and at WOTC. To be fair, the posts here at Paizo are more reasonable than the ones at WOTC.
If all the posts I were seeing were as uniform as what we've seen in this thread, I'd be thinking differently. However, the opinions expressed here seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
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Actually, what I think a lot of people want (or were expecting) is that the same material in the 3.0/3.5 PHB/DMG/MM (which I believe is currently considered the core material) would also be in the 4E PHB/DMG/MM (i.e. classes, races, spells, and monsters) as opposed to spread across multiple books. Many people I think have come to expect certain things to be included in...The difference is that the current PHB2, DMG2, and MM2-5 are completely optional. The PHB2, DMG2, and MM2 in 4.0 are going to have classes, races, and monsters that by all rights should be core and thus included in the first 3 books. That is the problem. You now have to wait several years and buy 6 to 9 books just to get all the the basic material. This is blatant milking of the D&D cash cow and treats D&D fans like sheep that will buy anything. In my eyes, this is totally unacceptable behavior, and is one more very good reason not to switch to 4.0.The alternatives being
(a) publish 1/4 the information necessary to play all the core classes, races, prestige classes, feats, spells and magic items in the core rule books, and then another 1/4 a year later, etc.
(b) make the core rule books four times as big, and thus, four times as expensive
(c) leave out the artwork, which takes up about half the book (even more, for the MM). People who want pictures of orcs can buy a 3.0 MM on the internet for about $2.
(d) say that the core races et al. are it, and there will never be new core rulebooks until 5.0 comes out.
D&D players demonstrate a startling level of entitlement, like they have the right to demand that WOTC support every element of the 3.5 game system ever included forever, unchanged; it's a little surprising to me how much those players are willing to whine about how many books they'll need to buy when a new edition is published. They want the latest version of the rules, in three books, when the current rules take up an entire shelf? Too effing bad.
Exactly, we are just expecting the basic races and classes that have been part of the game for the better part of 20 years. We want dwarves, elves, half-elves, half-orcs, halflings, humans, and gnomes. We want bards, barbarians, clerics, druids, fighters, monks, rangers, paladins, and wizards in the first PHB. We are not asking for goliaths, ninjas, crusaders, and dragonwrought kobolds. It is not unreasonable to expect the very basic elements of the game in the PHB I. Is it a "startling level of entitlement" to expect the basic classes and races of Dungeons and Dragons to be in the first Player's Handbook of a new edition, or should we act like sheep and be happy even if they turn D&D into a fantasy version of Candyland? If we are going to pay money for a product, we have the right to have certain expectations for the product.
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I have a sneaking suspicion that this move is partially a further limitation on the new OGL/SRD. If only the first set of core books are OGL, and they don't include a lot of stuff that most gamers consider 'core,' it further limits what OGL publishers can produce, and therefore how much those products will appeal to the consumer.
Totally a guess on my part.
That would, indeed, impose a three- to six-month delay on other publishers being able to write stuff that uses the new rules, which gives WOTC a chance to write bug-ridden, out-of-date modules and accessories while the rules are still in development. A win-win situation!
Only, not for us.
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We want dwarves, elves, half-elves, half-orcs, halflings, humans, and gnomes. We want bards, barbarians, clerics, druids, fighters, monks, rangers, paladins, and wizards in the first PHB.
Hear, Hear!
We are not asking for goliaths, ninjas, crusaders, and dragonwrought kobolds.
And we certainly aren't asking for Tieflings, Warforged, Eladrin, Warlocks, etc. Now, each of those may be well-written, characterful and fun to run for and play (well; except for the Warlock, of course), but they have always been, and always will be, fringe interests that reflect a non-standard view of fantasy. And the goal of any 'core rules' should be to present basic, generic, mainstream rules for basic, generic, mainstream PCs, so that every group has a solid footing, from which they are free to then expand, when they are ready for more esoteric concepts.
I don't have a problem with Warforged; I think they are an interesting concept, but only within a world like Eberron or Iron Kingdoms, where the clash between magic and primitive technology is a major, central, core theme. You cannot just cram them into an existing campaign world, which has managed for years (decades?) without the merest mention of them.
Let's face it; you either want to play a Steampunk campaign, or you don't. If you do, then you're going to want to go the whole hog, and you'll want a D&D Steampunk Sourcebook, with railways, zeppelins, velocipedes and sonic oscillators, in order to take the rules to their natural conclusion. In which case, merely having Warforged in the PHB is a bit of a let-down, a damp squib, since it doesn't go far enough. And if you don't want any anachronistic magitech elements in your game, then they're an unwelcome waste of space; or worse, they become an extremely annoying distraction, with the players pestering you to use them, since "They're a core race! Why won't you alter your campaign?"
Now, if the designers at WOTC were to say "Hey, the new rules are so streamlined, that we've saved a lot of space. So here's a taster of some other settings to spark some ideas!", then that would be fine, too. But they're not. These elements are being put in at the expense of core generic concepts such as gnomes and druids (No, I don't have a link, but I do recall the posts in question). Now, I can't speak for everyone, but if you're proposing a game-world without gnomes and druids, then for many people, you may as well be proposing a world without fighters, rogues and wizards.
And, by implication, a world without them as players, and a company without them as customers.
Okay, I'm getting this sense that people are unhappy with the idea of lots of PHBs?? I seriously don't get this. It's a total mystery to me. Okay, let's step this through. One monster manual gives you maybe, say 100 monsters to low-ball it. Each new one gives you another 100. I own all five and would continue buying every one because more is better. I would also like to have more races and classes, more feats, gear and spells. That would be awesome. There are two ways to get this. One is what they've decided to do--produce a whole PHB every year that's all stuff I want, very much like a Monster Manual.
OR
Do what they did all through 3.x--come up with the Complete book of this and the Environment book of that, and the games that emphasize this-other. Most of the book, of course, will be stuff I totally don't care about--boats or igloos or drawbridges and the statistical wonders involved with each. I'll be lucky to have ten pages of the book I even want--but to get those ten pages I gotta' shell out 40 bucks just the same.
Thanks, but I'll take the PHBs!
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That would, indeed, impose a three- to six-month delay on other publishers being able to write stuff that uses the new rules, which gives WOTC a chance to write bug-ridden, out-of-date modules and accessories while the rules are still in development. A win-win situation!
Only, not for us.
You are assuming that the later core books would be OGL. They might be, but they might not.
Grimcleaver, that sword swings both ways.
What you feel about the Complete books is likely how many of the posters feel about multiple PHB's.
Imagine a person wanting everything in the initial PHB, plus Gnomes and Bards (neither of which are confirmed to not be in the initial PHB, as far as I know) both of which are not even certain to be in the same additional PHB.
With the Complete books and the environment books, we had thematic additional material. With what we have heard so far (which is still too little for my tastes), everything we are used to getting "out of the box" won't even make it into the initial Core books.
So if you wanted to get everything from that "broken, and flawed" system that you all ready own in one book - you might need to buy two, three, maybe more 4th Edition Core books.
On top of that, since there isn't any details as to what might be contained in each additional core book, we can't even be assured that the material will be thematic.
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Exactly, I'm all for additional, thematic material. What I don't like is being forced to wait at least a year and to buy extra books just to get the "rest" of the basic, bare-bones, core game. At the very least we should expect 10 of the 11 base classes and all of the races from the 3.0 PHB to be in the first PHB. Then, if they want to do a psionic-themed PHB II with psychic warriors, elans, half-giants, psions, etc. or an oriental-themed PHB III with ninjas, samurais,wu-jen and spirit-folk, I would say "More power to them." Instead, if you want to play something as basic as a half-orc barbarian or a gnome bard you have to wait at least until 2009, and buy another PHB. That is not something I agree with.
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As an alternative, how about:
PHB I - Races and Classes
PHB II - Spells
PHB III - Prestige Classes
PHB IV - Expansion Races & Classes
Rules Book - just the actual core rules, including environment rules
DMG - adventure and campaign design and development
More intensive on the initial list of PHBs because of the sheer amount of material that has been released and would be expected because of how much they have been promoted in previous releases.
I guess for me it's like the Monster Manual. You can theme it if you want. Desert Monsters, Cold Monsters, Forest Monsters. That's fine. Just give me a book of monsters. Don't give me page after page of how to run games in the cold or what blizzards do. I don't care. I don't need to have rules on how boats work. I can figure that out on my own. I would just like the classes and races (and monsters) from those books and toss all the filler.
If they came up with themed PHB's I would buy them--as long as they were full of what I want, which is races, classes, magic, gear and spells. Break them up how you want. Just don't waste my time with a book filled with meaningless useless filler.
The thing is I don't consider a full PHB full of classes, races, etc. to be broken or incomplete if it doesn't have everything in the first one. If everything in it is good and useful, then it's a great book. I don't, for example, consider the first Monster Manual to be broken. It didn't have meenlocks, or thri-kreen, or a dozen other critters I dearly love in it, but seeing what WAS in it made me want to buy the next one. Same thing. The first book doesn't have gnomes, but it's a great book full of good stuff? Fine! I'll buy the next one that does! If that means I end up with twelve PHBs chalk full of great races and classes and whatnot then I'll buy a new bookcase. Woo-hoo! It would rock! I don't get how it wouldn't.
Now granted I too miss gnomes and bards and all that stuff, but it's not like they're just gone. There's not going to be holes cut out where the old races and classes were supposed to be. They are filling it with new content--some of which I'm holding off judgement on, but some of it that I'm genuinely pumped to see. They're understandably keeping some of the classic stuff back, not releasing it in the first book, and I think I know why. If the whole book was the same stuff as 3.0 then I'd feel mad and cheated. It would feel like a waste. If I get some classic stuff and some new stuff I feel better. It's a better value. If I read that new stuff and I like it then I'll be anxious and wanting to see what they'll do with the other stuff I love. I'll buy the next books. If all the stuff was in the very first book there would be little incentive to buy the next book and I would feel like I had to just repurchase the same old thing I already own. This way it keeps me looking forward to the next one. I personally think they're playing it just right.
Qibble quibble.
Call them what you will.
There are going to be lots of books to buy, rest assured.
Ain't there always...only now I will want to buy them.
While I saw the merit of Player Handbook II 3.5 I don't know if my shelves can take another batch! Hard enough to balance on the lap while playing!
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I guess for me it's like the Monster Manual. You can theme it if you want. Desert Monsters, Cold Monsters, Forest Monsters. That's fine. Just give me a book of monsters. Don't give me page after page of how to run games in the cold or what blizzards do. I don't care. I don't need to have rules on how boats work. I can figure that out on my own. I would just like the classes and races (and monsters) from those books and toss all the filler.
If they came up with themed PHB's I would buy them--as long as they were full of what I want, which is races, classes, magic, gear and spells. Break them up how you want. Just don't waste my time with a book filled with meaningless useless filler.
The thing is I don't consider a full PHB full of classes, races, etc. to be broken or incomplete if it doesn't have everything in the first one. If everything in it is good and useful, then it's a great book. I don't, for example, consider the first Monster Manual to be broken. It didn't have meenlocks, or thri-kreen, or a dozen other critters I dearly love in it, but seeing what WAS in it made me want to buy the next one. Same thing. The first book doesn't have gnomes, but it's a great book full of good stuff? Fine! I'll buy the next one that does! If that means I end up with twelve PHBs chalk full of great races and classes and whatnot then I'll buy a new bookcase. Woo-hoo! It would rock! I don't get how it wouldn't.
Now granted I too miss gnomes and bards and all that stuff, but it's not like they're just gone. There's not going to be holes cut out where the old races and classes were supposed to be. They are filling it with new content--some of which I'm holding off judgement on, but some of it that I'm genuinely pumped to see. They're understandably keeping some of the classic stuff back, not releasing it in the first book, and I think I know why. If the whole book was the same stuff as 3.0 then I'd feel mad and cheated. It would feel like a waste. If I get some classic stuff and some new stuff I feel better. It's...
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. You don't understand why we are feeling cheated because basic core classes and races won't be in PHB I, and we don't understand why you are eager to wait a lot longer and pay a lot more for the very basic elements of the game. As it stands, the people that genuinley want to play a half-orc barbarian, wood elf druid, half-elf bard, or human monk are out of luck. Since racial abilities will be spread out over 30 levels, it won't exactly be easy to houserule a 4.0 half-orc or gnome. It will porbably be even more difficult to come up with a monk or druid class. That won't sit well with a lot of people.
Personally, I won't start up a 4 campaign until I have the classes I want. SO 4 may just be reading material for a while. That's not a big deal to me, I have 3.5.
I probably won't be finished with my 3.5 campaigns anyway because with the same patience and preparation, I am currently waiting until all of RotRL is out before I begin.
That's my 2c.
I can certainly understand you impatience, I want to see it all, too, but it just doesn't bother me enough to gripe.
I guess for me it's like the Monster Manual. You can theme it if you want. Desert Monsters, Cold Monsters, Forest Monsters. That's fine. Just give me a book of monsters. Don't give me page after page of how to run games in the cold or what blizzards do. I don't care. I don't need to have rules on how boats work. I can figure that out on my own. I would just like the classes and races (and monsters) from those books and toss all the filler.
If they came up with themed PHB's I would buy them--as long as they were full of what I want, which is races, classes, magic, gear and spells. Break them up how you want. Just don't waste my time with a book filled with meaningless useless filler.
The thing is I don't consider a full PHB full of classes, races, etc. to be broken or incomplete if it doesn't have everything in the first one. If everything in it is good and useful, then it's a great book. I don't, for example, consider the first Monster Manual to be broken. It didn't have meenlocks, or thri-kreen, or a dozen other critters I dearly love in it, but seeing what WAS in it made me want to buy the next one. Same thing. The first book doesn't have gnomes, but it's a great book full of good stuff? Fine! I'll buy the next one that does! If that means I end up with twelve PHBs chalk full of great races and classes and whatnot then I'll buy a new bookcase. Woo-hoo! It would rock! I don't get how it wouldn't.
Now granted I too miss gnomes and bards and all that stuff, but it's not like they're just gone. There's not going to be holes cut out where the old races and classes were supposed to be. They are filling it with new content--some of which I'm holding off judgement on, but some of it that I'm genuinely pumped to see. They're understandably keeping some of the classic stuff back, not releasing it in the first book, and I think I know why. If the whole book was the same stuff as 3.0 then I'd feel mad and cheated. It would feel like a waste. If I get some classic stuff and some new stuff I feel better. It's...
For people like myself and my group, who only buy the three basic books, spreading them out across multiple books means spending money we wouldn't have spent otherwise. As the DM does it bother me that they have swapped out some old material for new? From a game stand point no, because I can just throw it away. From a customer/fan stand point? Yes, because their reasons for doing so are less than encouraging ("Ooooooooooooooooooo, pretty picture. Let's include them as a player race. What class is the pretty demon/devil woman with big boobs? Warlock? Ok, we will add that too").
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I guess for me it's like the Monster Manual. You can theme it if you want. Desert Monsters, Cold Monsters, Forest Monsters. That's fine. Just give me a book of monsters. Don't give me page after page of how to run games in the cold or what blizzards do. I don't care. I don't need to have rules on how boats work. I can figure that out on my own. I would just like the classes and races (and monsters) from those books and toss all the filler.
It's funny, I think I'm the exact opposite. I seem to be the only one among the posters here, but I actually LIKE the environment themed books. I WANT them to tell me how boats work; I have neither the time, nor the energy, nor the patience, to develop my own set of balanced, flavorful rules that make boats fun and exciting places to play. That's why I pay other people to design the game for me. :)
I think lots of time the races and classes in those books are the filler, contrived to fit the setting that most people wouldn't play in most campaigns.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. You don't understand why we are feeling cheated because basic core classes and races won't be in PHB I, and we don't understand why you are eager to wait a lot longer and pay a lot more for the very basic elements of the game. As it stands, the people that genuinley want to play a half-orc barbarian, wood elf druid, half-elf bard, or human monk are out of luck. Since racial abilities will be spread out over 30 levels, it won't exactly be easy to houserule a 4.0 half-orc or gnome. It will porbably be even more difficult to come up with a monk or druid class. That won't sit well with a lot of people.
I guess I see the game setting more for what it will be at release and the other stuff as fun add ons for later. I don't intend to wait. I intend to use what classes races and whatnot are there to tell stories. If a player of mine gets a real burr in his backside that he just has to play a race or class that isn't in the books, then as a patch I'll probably make something homebrew until the books come out in another year or so. No big deal. For me 4e will be what it is when it comes out--not what it will be in several years. I'll content myself with that and the promise of good stuff to come.
For people like myself and my group, who only buy the three basic books, spreading them out across multiple books means spending money we wouldn't have spent otherwise. As the DM does it bother me that they have swapped out some old material for new? From a game stand point no, because I can just throw it away. From a customer/fan stand point? Yes, because their reasons for doing so are less than encouraging ("Ooooooooooooooooooo, pretty picture. Let's include them as a player race. What class is the pretty demon/devil woman with big boobs? Warlock? Ok, we will add that too").
Not sure how pretty I think she really is...but yeah, suffice it to say there's elements of the game that I wish were born from more forethought and less "gee hey that's cool!". If you're looking for just one book then I empathize (of course I'd empathize the same if you only wanted one Monster Manual--that's a hard choice) but I'd say pick the one you like best once they're all on the table. I'd argue though that if you can use something from the books (a race or class or whatever) you're only benefitting yourself by doing it--having already bought the book. Myself I'm not a great fan of half-orcs, I think the chances of humans and orcs settling down to have a family together are unlikely and the other options are a little coarse for my tastes. Either way I can't imagine enough of them as adventurers to deserve listing in the core book. Still as part of the setting it's best to use them and spin them how I can. Same here.
It's funny, I think I'm the exact opposite. I seem to be the only one among the posters here, but I actually LIKE the environment themed books. I WANT them to tell me how boats work; I have neither the time, nor the energy, nor the patience, to develop my own set of balanced, flavorful rules that make boats fun and exciting places to play. That's why I pay other people to design the game for me. :)
I think lots of time the races and classes in those books are the filler, contrived to fit the setting that most people wouldn't play in most campaigns.
I dunno man. I mean they float. They're made of wood. What's to know? Sand dunes--they're sandy and hot, occasionally they cause sandstorms. Snow is cold and wet. I really don't see how they make books out of this stuff. Honestly if you could sell them to me in a way that made them seem at all desirable I might actually go out and take a second look at them.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I dunno man. I mean they float. They're made of wood. What's to know? Sand dunes--they're sandy and hot, occasionally they cause sandstorms. Snow is cold and wet. I really don't see how they make books out of this stuff. Honestly if you could sell them to me in a way that made them seem at all desirable I might actually go out and take a second look at them.
I had to laugh, good-naturedly, at this, Grimcleaver.
Sailing and marine and nautical warfare rules are the number one headache I've had to deal with. Pirates are cool, and ship-to-ship combat is cool, and people want to do stuff like that...and then someone attacks the rigging....and someone wants to dump cargo so that the ship's displace ment is less and the main deck rises, giving an advantage to the PC's ship...and then someone casts a strong wind spell, but someone else reminds us that one of the ships has taken rigging damage, and then...
Arrrr.
Please, someone, give me some decent rules for all this, that don't bog down, that address common issues in maritime battles and can handle fantasy elements.
in each of the environment books, I thought there was a page or two of good rules, a "keeper" humanoid race, some Prestige Classes that worked a lot better for NPC's, and a couple of really well-designed encounters / side treks.
For people like myself and my group, who only buy the three basic books, spreading them out across multiple books means spending money we wouldn't have spent otherwise. As the DM does it bother me that they have swapped out some old material for new? From a game stand point no, because I can just throw it away. From a customer/fan stand point? Yes, because their reasons for doing so are less than encouraging ("Ooooooooooooooooooo, pretty picture. Let's include them as a player race. What class is the pretty demon/devil woman with big boobs? Warlock? Ok, we will add that too").Not sure how pretty I think she really is...but yeah, suffice it to say there's elements of the game that I wish were born from more forethought and less "gee hey that's cool!". If you're looking for just one book then I empathize (of course I'd empathize the same if you only wanted one Monster Manual--that's a hard choice) but I'd say pick the one you like best once they're all on the table. I'd argue though that if you can use something from the books (a race or class or whatever) you're only benefitting yourself by doing it--having already bought the book. Myself I'm not a great fan of half-orcs, I think the chances of humans and orcs settling down to have a family together are unlikely and the other options are a little coarse for my tastes. Either way I can't imagine enough of them as adventurers to deserve listing in the core book. Still as part of the setting it's best to use them and spin them how I can. Same here.
I definately understand where you are coming from. I didn't have much use for the Complete series or for the environment books either but the biggest problem is that I will probably be in the middle of an adventure or campaign when 4E comes out and since it won't have some of the basic material we are using we will either have to not convert (which isn't that big a deal because we are on a wait-and-see mode anyway) or fight to make the conversions work. I guess some of the apparent arbitrariness of some of the changes just don't sit right with me. It gives me the impression that the goal wasn't to make the best game just one that was cool.
I have a sneaking suspicion that this move is partially a further limitation on the new OGL/SRD. If only the first set of core books are OGL, and they don't include a lot of stuff that most gamers consider 'core,' it further limits what OGL publishers can produce, and therefore how much those products will appeal to the consumer.
Totally a guess on my part.
Arg, system ate my first reply.
But basically, since what's in the 3.5 SRD can never be closed, then if it is in the 3.5 SRD, and not in the 4e core books, then I will bet that someone will publish their own version (Necromancer Games is already planning on including any missing monsters in their first monster book - but do plan to take a little longer this time and make sure they are all solid). Besides there's also the fan versions that will inevitably pop up, and will probably include many non open material as well. So within the first several months of 4e, there will be many, many versions of the missing races, classes, and monsters by professionals and fans alike (and some will even be good!). ;)
So, it's a silly marketing ploy on WotC's part that is really pointless because it just means that others will try to fill those voids. The groups that use WotC only will have to wait, but people who use 3rd party or fan-made stuff will have more options than they know what to do with.
Actually, the more I think about it, it might be more fun seeing what the community comes up with for druids and such rather than just taking te single official one as the One True Version.
This is conjecture on my part.
4ePHB 1- level 1 to 10
4ePHB 2- level 11 to 20
$ePHB 3- level 21 to 30
Like basic-expert-advanced-master in the old days.
There was mention of a three tier system.
OR
4ePHB 1- Fighter Cleric Warlock Rogue. Elf Dwarf Halfling Planetouched.
4ePHB 2- Ranger Druid Wizard Bard. Gnome (Wilderness edition)
etc.
The biggest problem for me is expense... Unless I really love the rules to the point where I think I have a CHANCE at writing something salable for them, I simply can't justify shelling out the money 4e will require.
From what I've seen, within a few months after 4.0 comes out you should be able to buy the books used at half price, which should bring the cost down considerably.
'course, WOTC doesn't get any money that way...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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But basically, since what's in the 3.5 SRD can never be closed, then if it is in the 3.5 SRD, and not in the 4e core books, then I will bet that someone will publish their own version (Necromancer Games is already planning on including any missing monsters in their first monster book - but do plan to take a little longer this time and make sure they are all solid). Besides there's also the fan versions that will inevitably pop up, and will probably include many non open material as well. So within the first several months of 4e, there will be many, many versions of the missing races, classes, and monsters by professionals and fans alike (and some will even be good!). ;)
i'm still being cynical and betting that the 4.0 OGL will be written in a way to restrict it somehow.
And we certainly aren't asking for Tieflings, Warforged, Eladrin, Warlocks, etc.
Now, I can't speak for everyone, but if you're proposing a game-world without gnomes and druids, then for many people, you may as well be proposing a world without fighters, rogues and wizards.
Hmm... not so sure about this. On one hand I know exactly what my good friend Snorter is saying. Make the core rules CORE. Keep it to what matters most about the D&D game.
However... I don't really like gnomes. And Druids are a bit niche anyway. So why not swap out the most niche core stuff for some equally niche but a bit cooler new stuff? Fighters, Rogues, Clerics & Wizards will never go. Nor will humans, dwarves, elves and halflings.
But I can see an extra race coming in, or an extra class. It must not change the core ethos of the game (warforged and superheros are out) but why not try something new?!
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I dunno man. I mean they float. They're made of wood. What's to know?
Hit Points. Hardness. Movement. How long it takes to adjust the sails. How many sails are on a given type/class of ship. How hard it is to balance yourself while fighting on a crossbeam. Or a crow's nest. How much that's modified by weather, like trying to fight on a beam during a windy rainstorm. Where and how you can mount weapons on them (catapults, ballista, etc). Sinking. How much cargo they can carry. What's the crew capacity. How ramming works.
Once you get off the boat, how does water pressure work? How deep do you have to go before you start taking damage? What about visibility at 2,000 feet deep? Not much sunlight gets down there. What advantages are there to attacking someone from above/below, since the water creates a fluid 3d environment instead of the 2d world of land combat (usually, I understand some things fly).
Those are just off the top of my head. :)
Sand dunes--they're sandy and hot, occasionally they cause sandstorms.
OK, how hot? How long before a guy with 10 Con starts to succumb to heat exhaustion? And those sandstorms...do they cause damage when blowing at 40mph? What are the modifiers to moving/acting/fighting in them? For that matter, even when there's NOT a storm, how does a sand dune affect your tumble check? Or your jump check?
Snow is cold and wet. I really don't see how they make books out of this stuff. Honestly if you could sell them to me in a way that made them seem at all desirable I might actually go out and take a second look at them.
Snow is cold. How cold? How does an avalanche work in game mechanics terms?
I think I've made my point. There is lots of useful information in there about how your environment affects your PCs and your actions. And if you anticipate creating a character from that environment, or running part or all of a campaign there, that can really be useful info.
It just seems like it might be tough lugging 3 or 4 books to the weekly game just to play your PC (Example if the basic rules are in 1, the race you play is in 3, and the class you choose is in 4). I can only imagine the glut of bad Prestige classes to hit print (Worse than the complete series).
And Weasel, I'm having a tough time with ship to ship rules too brother! their is a supplement out called "Corsair" that is tied to Skull and Bones by Green Ronin that works pretty good.
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I'm not having trouble with it, Jib... my point is that I WOULD be without Stormwrack. I also have a 3rd party supplement that I've used for some ideas too, though, and I'd recommend it. It's called the Seafarer's Handbook by Fantasy Flight.
Both are excellent resources if you're doing ship and/or aquatic stuff. :)
Anyway, this is all way off topic. Back on it, I think there are lots of different ways to divide up the material for a new edition of the rules. Every way they do it will make some people happy, while annoying the CRAP out of others. No way around that.
I don't like making everything phb, phb2, phb3, etc simply because you don't really know what you're getting in each, and when you do get it, it's not as easy to remember 3 years in which thing was in which book. I'd rather have them delineated somehow, like the complete series. If you were looking for a bard prestige class, chances are it was in complete adventurer. Just makes it easier to remember.
I think the reason WotC wants to change from the current model is exactly that though. A casual gamer really only needs 1 book to play, the PHB. Maybe a "complete" book tied to his class as a nice bonus. The DM of course needs more, but that's only one in four of the players in the group, on average. Well, they can't have THAT...so they want to make the players each have a ton of PHB's with all the info they need spread throughout them.
Hit Points. Hardness. Movement. How long it takes to adjust the sails. How many sails are on a given type/class of ship. How hard it is to balance yourself while fighting on a crossbeam. Or a crow's nest. How much that's modified by weather, like trying to fight on a beam during a windy rainstorm....I think I've made my point. There is lots of useful information in there about how your environment affects your PCs and your actions. And if you anticipate creating a character from that environment, or running part or all of a campaign there, that...
Fair enough. Granted not a blessed one of those things is the sort of thing I'd feel uncomfortable improving off the cuff. Partly because I think I have a pretty good handle on how boat combat should feel and enough of a general grounding in boat physics that I don't think much of that would panic me. Then again I run a pretty fast and loose kind of game. No map, no minis, no five foot boxes--mostly in our heads. So a lot of the stuff that becomes terribly important in the more tactical game pales in comparison to the smell of the sea, the bucking of the ship underfoot, the coarse rope held taut in a calloused hand.
Then again, it's also so infrequent that we actually get on a boat that I think in my gaming career it's happened twice--neither of them D&D games.
As for desert and ice, kind of the same thing. I might not know the official word on how hot deserts are, or how cold glaciers get but I have a good feel for them. I think I can describe being there in a way that mechanics really don't adequately represent and aren't really all that necessary for.
So yeah, I guess I can see now someone having a use for that kind of book--where before I was a bit baffled. Still not my thing though. Don't need it, really, at all--unless I needed to smash a bug. What I can use though are as many solid races and classes as I can get my hands on. Good equipment is good too. Feats and spells I'll take because they come with the book and variety is nice. This stuff matters to me. Environment books and generic settingless fluff? That doesn't really mean anything for me and just ends up being wasted wordcount.
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Well, if it's not a key part of what you do, that's no big deal.
Everybody runs a different game, ya know. Mine is highly tactical, I do the figs and the gridmap and the whole bit, and I wouldn't feel right without it. I don't like not being able to definitively tell if Jaatu the Dragon Shaman can use his breath weapon on 3 pirates or 5.
I'm sure your game would be tons of fun, too, but it's just not how we do it.
Anyway, if you can at least see why the environment-centered books COULD be useful, that's really all I was trying to get across.