CEO
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So have you learned anything new? :)We are!
I am, at least...
I finally got through all 13 pages of this baby! Thanks to everybody for the feedback. Everybody here at Paizo really appreciates the amount of loyalty and support that we are seeing from everybody here on the boards.
Yes, we have learned a bunch from reading these posts. But don't expect that to lead to a post here with any resolution. There is still a LOT of information we don't have. And we have a lot of thinking to do. :)
One thing I do want to point out is that Paizo has a really good thing going with Pathfinder and GameMastery products, and we want to find a way to keep that going. There is an adage in business that it is much more costly to acquire new customers than it is to keep existing ones. I expect that whatever we do, we will do something that will be aimed at keeping our existing customers. Sure, 4E might bring in a lot of new customers. Then again, it might not. But those customers aren't our customers and without Dragon and Dungeon to show them how cool Paizo is, it might be really hard for us to attract them. Once we know more about 4E, we will be able to determine whether Paizo will be able to create the types of products that we know our current customers like. Or not. That will go a long way towards determining what we do.
I can make this pledge to you guys. First off, we will keep our communication lines open with you and let you know what we are thinking once we know ourselves. Second, we are committed to keeping the feel of our products in the same vein as they are now. If 4E is a good game and the OGL and rules set allow us to create those types of products, then we will more than likely switch to 4E. If for some reason, we determine that 4E makes it hard for us to make those types of products or the OGL makes it difficult, then we will find a way to keep producing the products that our customers demand from us without using 4E.
Other than that, we have no clue at this stage. :) Again, thanks for all the feedback. The data is invaluable to us to help gauge where our customers are at. Keep letting us know what you are thinking as more info comes out about 4E, especially if something makes you change your mind. Update your vote in our online poll about 4E. And we will do the same.
Again, thanks all for taking the time to post your thoughts!
-Lisa
pAIzo rOKS!!!!!! It's really lame that we don't know where 4e is taking us, so far it's to a place we don't like; where tiefling farmers battle dinosaur riding robots, mysto the wizard fireballs every round while the warrior Blacksword backflips his flying dragon claw surprise attack feat. I'm sure Paizo may be able to save it.
I got Basic D&D as a hand-me-down.
I got AD&D 2nd Edition as a hand-me-down.
I waited a bit and bought the 3.0 Core Books second-hand.
I waited a bit and bought the 3.5 Core Books second-hand.
I've never bought a Core Book new and off-the-shelf.
I've bought something around 100~150 issues of Dragon and Dungeon, new and off-the-rack at the magazine stand, for almost as much as I paid for the hardcover core books each issue.
If I see 4th Edition Core Books for sale second hand, I might buy them. I don't expect that might happen for a year after it's release.
I'd be bothered an annoyed if I finally manage to find a place where I can buy Pathfinder/GameMastery, slap down twenty bucks, then find it in this bizarre 4th Edition gobbledygook. Best business decision is to try and jump in on 4th Edition to ride whatever hype wave WotC/Hasbro get going. My vote however, is stick 3.5. Please
I can make this pledge to you guys. First off, we will keep our communication lines open with you and let you know what we are thinking once we know ourselves. Second, we are committed to keeping the feel of our products in the same vein as they are now. If 4E is a good game and the OGL and rules set allow us to create those types of products, then we will more than likely switch to 4E. If for some reason, we determine that 4E makes it hard for us to make those types of products or the OGL makes it difficult, then we will find a way to keep producing the products that our customers demand from us without using...
I'm having a weird flashback. Wasn't it you who was representing WotC back about 10 years on the AOL forums right after you guys got the D&D license?
I remember how cool it was that someone from the company was actually talking to us fans.
Good times. :)
Lisa, James, Eric et al.
It's us who should be thanking you as well for your feedback to our feedback and dedication to your fan/customer base.
I agree, Fantastic service as always,
Oh and...
Mr Morris, I salute your choice of Avatar.
Elcian
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This is what makes Paizo a great company.
Erik (THE PUBLISHER) shows up, asks for feedback, engages us a bit.
Lisa (THE CEO) shows up and thanks us for the feedback.
WoTC: Bill Slaviscek (sp?) Announces at GenCon (and thanks to YouTube we all see it) that he'll keep us posted. Well, we';ve seen a blog that has been removed apparently and two "articles" in "Dragon" via the D.I. (Ampersand). One article was entitled 'rumors and speculation' and was a good step. The other was called "exciting news!' where we have a product press release disguised as an editorial on a web page disguised as a magazine.
Good PR makes a huge difference. Just ask the people who Run Wal-Mart. :P
Again, thanks all for taking the time to post your thoughts!
This is precisely why I plan on to keep supporting Paizo, no matter what they do.
Thanks Paizo.We appreciate.
Again, thanks all for taking the time to post your thoughts!This is precisely why I plan on to keep supporting Paizo, no matter what they do.
Thanks Paizo.
We appreciate.
I agree. Even with my (very) tight budget, I plan on making sure that I make the room for Paizo products. WotC 4.x ed stuff can be bought whenever I get the inclination to do so. All I can say is if I run a game, it will be 3.5 for the next 3 to 4 years. After all, I have to get through SCAP, AoW, STAP, the pathfinder APs, Dungeon mags 89-150, the GameMAstery modules, Ptolus, The City of Brass, what ever is running around in my head, plus several other modules. ~thinks after looking at that list~ Hmmnnnnn.... Hell, it might be 5 to 10 years at that rate. Plus, I have yet to finish up buying what 3.5 books that I still want. ~grumbles~ Damn bills.
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CEO
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I'm having a weird flashback. Wasn't it you who was representing WotC back about 10 years on the AOL forums right after you guys got the D&D license?
I remember how cool it was that someone from the company was actually talking to us fans.
Good times. :)
I was the online face of WotC when we purchased TSR. Peter Adkison had me go onto AOL and let everyone know that it would all be fine. That was a really fun chat!
-Lisa
I'm having a weird flashback. Wasn't it you who was representing WotC back about 10 years on the AOL forums right after you guys got the D&D license?
I remember how cool it was that someone from the company was actually talking to us fans.
Good times. :)
I was the online face of WotC when we purchased TSR. Peter Adkison had me go onto AOL and let everyone know that it would all be fine. That was a really fun chat!
-Lisa
~laughter~ My, how some things change and yet others stay the same. ~claps~ Bravo! Lisa, Erik, and all the rest of the Paizo staff. You have shown over and over again what real customer service is. If you keep up the good work, things will turn out fine.
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I am planning to start a 3rd attempt of Shackled City + Age of Worms, Savage Tide, Rise of Runelords + Saga of the Drow, Warlords of the Accordlands, Ptolus and so on... in the future.
I have a Freeport campaign set in Greyhawk running at the moment and will start a Falcon's Hollow campaign by the end of the year/beginning of the next year (as it is my turn again in our RoundRobinDM Thursday group and one essential player for continuing Shackled City has moved away).
I will stick with 3.5 for some time to come. But I will also check out 4e when it will be released. I will decide at that point of time, if I am going with the Gametable or another application for remote playing (like Fantasy Ground 2 or RPG Explorer), perhaps even both...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I am planning to start a 3rd attempt of Shackled City + Age of Worms, Savage Tide, Rise of Runelords + Saga of the Drow, Warlords of the Accordlands, Ptolus and so on... in the future.
Completely off topic, but I read that as 'Warlords of the Accordians."
Everybody Polka!
Erik,
I am for one NOT going to 4e, I simply have put to much time and energy into 3.5 to consider changing before I use up all my materials
I can understand the drive your publishing company is under to update to 4.0 and the need to "keep up."
I am here to ask you not to. 4E is killing out sacred cows, wiping out 30+ years of campaign setting with greyhawk, and dropping a lot of "make it cool" announcements that seem more anime then D&D. If I had wanted to play anime based RPGs I would go to BESM... not a new edition of D&D.
I heartily urge you to update the SRD to your own standard with this 3.75, and know that myself and my gaming group will follow you.
The only thing WotC is getting my money from me for is minis... and only cause I can't paint.
Sincerely
Elvnsword
I was the online face of WotC when we purchased TSR. Peter Adkison had me go onto AOL and let everyone know that it would all be fine. That was a really fun chat!
-Lisa
So it's settled then.
All Paizo needs to do is purchase Dungeons and Dragons and all will be well. :)
At this stage, the ball is in Paizo's -- and WotC's -- court. They will do what is best for their long-term success and no one should fault them for that. I think the likelihood of their doing anything other than supporting 4E is small, but I also think, if they genuinely believe that that course of action won't help them do what they do best, they won't pull the trigger and convert to the new edition. I have no doubt whatsoever that their final decision will be neither arbitrary nor ill-conceived.
So, I shall just sit back and wait and see which way the wind blows. I wish them continued success now and in the future and hope that their decision is one that I can support. Until then, best of luck in your endeavors. I do not envy the hard thinking you must do at this crucial time.
I was the online face of WotC when we purchased TSR. Peter Adkison had me go onto AOL and let everyone know that it would all be fine. That was a really fun chat!
-Lisa
So it's settled then.
All Paizo needs to do is purchase Dungeons and Dragons and all will be well. :)
Truer words have seldom been spoken.
-The Gneech
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Oh, I forgot to mention that Reaper Minis (including the pre-painted ones) are available through the Paizo Store.
http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/r/reaperMiniatures/byProductType/miniature s/legendaryEncounters
I was the online face of WotC when we purchased TSR. Peter Adkison had me go onto AOL and let everyone know that it would all be fine. That was a really fun chat!
-Lisa
So it's settled then.
All Paizo needs to do is purchase Dungeons and Dragons and all will be well. :)
If only that were possible. :(
A lot has already been said here, but I'll add my points:
* I'll buy the 4e core books (and only the core books) if and when Paizo switches to it. At this point that's the only factor that would persuade me to switch.
* If the 4e mechanics are decent, it probably makes the most business sense to switch to 4e and fix any problems with "setting-specific" ad-hoc variant rules, of the kind that have always been used to customize game settings.
* Do *not* sign up for any new version of the OGL that gives WotC/Hasbro the right to pull the license at their discretion. You can't run a business when your continued existence is at the mercy of your competitor. (And trust me, Hasbro will see you as a competitor even if your friends at WotC don't). Sticking with 3.5, or making a new 3.75, would be preferable to this. Don't give Hasbro the power to "Judges Guild" you.
* In fact, check to see if it's kosher to publish under the 3e OGL but using the 4e SRD.
* Don't be afraid to stick with 3.5 for as long as necessary. A lot of people won't be "early adopters" of 4e.
I haven't read all 15! pages of this thread, but I wanted to voice my concerns. I love Paizo stuff, and I really hope that you do produce 4.0 edition stuff. If you don't, I seriously hope you continue to publish 3.5 stuff and not go off and make a 3.75 Pathfinder edition or something. I can say with little reservation that I would dump my pathfinder subscription if that was the direction you elected to take as I don't wish to buy into such a system at this time *and* 4E.
...
* In fact, check to see if it's kosher to publish under the 3e OGL but using the 4e SRD....
I think someone in WotC/Hasbro's legal department would be fired if they let that slip through a loophole... but the combination of 3.5 or 4.0 SRDs being usable with the existing OGL would be the best possible outcome, if it happened.
Ah, but they've promised there won't be a 4.5 edition like last time. So they'll just go straight to 5th ;-)No, there won't be a 4.5. Just a new PHB, a new MM and a new DMG every year. Huge improvement... *rolls eyes*
4.1, 4.2, 4.3... just so they skip 4.5.
Gonna throw in my 2 coppers. I've been around gaming for a good bit, every edition. I remember the TSR crash and burn, and was there for Lisa's chat on AOL. I guess I'm one of the grognards.
I'm in the "I'll go with Paizo" camp. I have guarded hopes for 4e, but since we have no solid info on the system yet I plan on sticking with 3.5 at least until the end of the second pathfinder series.
I signed up for pathfinder on trust, sight unseen. I hoped that Paizo would not let me down and would provide me a series of fun modules I could put my players through. I was not disappointed. Instead, Paizo exceeded my expectations by a large margin. I now have absolutely no reason to doubt that whatever direction you choose to go will bring with it quality products for which I will be glad to fork over my money.
Do whatever would be best to keep this great company in business and I'll be there to support you.
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Erik Mona asked readers, "What do YOU want Paizo to do?"
I want Paizo to spearhead a 3.75 Edition of D&D for launch at Gencon 2008.
This post says exactly how I feel, but could not find the words to express properly.Paizo can and will succeed with this!If there ever was a time to take a calculated risk it would be now.Be free from the shackles of WotC and make the game yours! This is what i want Paizo to do!
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3.75?
Bad idea.
Look at Arcana Unearthed - anyone actually play it? No one at my local plays it.
I look at the number of new players we brought in running Living Greyhawk and I see them all wanting to play Living Realms. They will buy 4E. More new players will hop on board because of the links to the video games, novels, and the like.
4E will sell. 4E will expand the potential customer base.
Staying at 3.5 will do you well until WotC pulls that plug.
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3.75?
Bad idea.Look at Arcana Unearthed - anyone actually play it? No one at my local plays it.
I look at the number of new players we brought in running Living Greyhawk and I see them all wanting to play Living Realms. They will buy 4E. More new players will hop on board because of the links to the video games, novels, and the like.
4E will sell. 4E will expand the potential customer base.
Staying at 3.5 will do you well until WotC pulls that plug.
First, WotC can't "pull the plug". The OGL is irrevocable.
Second, 4E will sell, sure. There's a very strong probability of that (though the possibility of a backlash DOES exist, it is MUCH smaller than a potential success, we agree). Doesn't mean that everyone has to get onboard with it and think it's just The Coolest Game Evar (TM). Doesn't mean that nobody can stick with 3.5.
Third, there are actually people playing Arcana Unearthed (like me), and many more people who have used it to fuel their own variations and house rules (like me).
Because you haven't seen it happen for a while in your area doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it mean that it represents a "usual" case in that regard.
3.75?
Bad idea.
Look at Arcana Unearthed - anyone actually play it? No one at my local plays it.
I don't think a straight across analogy to AU/AE (I have the latter, and it's excellent btw) is fair here. Monte designed them to be an alternate rules set, fleshed out w/ just enough of a sustainable campaign world for DM's to create their own. So even though there are a handful of adventures for the Diamond Throne setting, it's not like Golarion, where there's an ever growing mass of quite excellent adventures and adventure paths written in it.
You'll notice a common theme among many "older" gamers: we don't have the time to make up our own adventures like we used to. That's why Dungeon (RIP) was a godsend, esp. when Paizo took over the reins. Now, w/ Pathfinder & GameMastery modules, we can continue to save time by running these excellent adventures. I think the future is bright for Golarion as a campaign setting to bring in more and more players. Especially those of us who have played older settings that either "got disappeared", like Greyhawk, or are becoming radically changed, like FR (and not to everyone's liking).
W/ that in mind, I don't think it's out of the question to at least consider a 3.75 or 3.Paizo (or perhaps 4.Paizo).
W/ that in mind, I don't think it's out of the question to at least consider a 3.75 or 3.Paizo (or perhaps 4.Paizo).
P4izo?
Ugh. It hurts just to type that. Bleh.
If Paizo goes with their own brand of D&D, I'll follow.
The last straw was checking out WotC's current version of Dungeon: on October 30 the October issue consists of an update of an old adventure (little to no original content) and four columns.
If WotC has set out to impress me with their initial offerings, they've done it -- I'm not buying any more of their stuff.
I will buy rules (presumably OGL-based) and source material from Paizo.
It's definitely time the torch passed from WotC.
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D&D is dead! Long live Pathfinder!
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What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around?
Yes. Currently I have no plans to convert until 5e or my players drag me kicking and screaming. Or, worse, I want to convert to 4e.
I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days? Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?
All hype, very little usable detail. And no plans to start a 4e campaign from day 1.
What do YOU want Paizo to do?
Finish up all current projects in 3.5 (or 3.75) while either cancelling/pushing back unannounced projects until 4e comes out next year to minimize losses.
You may have to bite some financial loss as 4e comes out and buyers abandon Paizo in droves in the short run (e.g., "Why should I buy the latest Paizo adventure? It's in 3.5 while I'm going to start running 4e. Mmmm. 4e."). There's no way around it. THEN start prepping future 4e products. Personally, I feel y'all have built enough of a rep that, like Goodman Games and Necromancer Games, that folks will come back into the fold.
My two euros....
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Look at Arcana Unearthed - anyone actually play it? No one at my local plays it.
4E will sell. 4E will expand the potential customer base.
Staying at 3.5 will do you well until WotC pulls that plug.
LOL..I've just been reading through Arcana Unearthed and some mechanics that I've heard 4e will be doing ring similar to what I'm reading in AU or AEvolved. (racial levels...cool things at every level. fighting rituals...no alignments...)..Of course NO EDOs either.
How viable is it to make a separate gaming system? What's the latest new game that has done well? Anyone have any ideas?
So chip in on my thread at wizards.com where I'm trying to shame them into answering the question!
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=944115
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I think the future is bright for Golarion as a campaign setting to bring in more and more players. Especially those of us who have played older settings that either "got disappeared", like Greyhawk, or are becoming radically changed, like FR (and not to everyone's liking).
W/ that in mind, I don't think it's out of the question to at least consider a 3.75 or 3.Paizo (or perhaps 4.Paizo).
I agree that Paizo writes amazing adventure paths. I am gearing up to run Pathfinder starting in January.
That being said I am also looking forward to 4E and I will be tapping into whichever 4E source material will allow me to get rolling with the new rules.
I dislike 3E. I liked it enough to play it from the start but the flaws are just too big to look past and no ammount of tinkering will fix it. Everything I have read about 4E makes me want to hop right on.
I will miss Living Greyhawk. I do not like the Forgotten Realms and never have. I enjoy Eberron but not all that much.
I would hope that Paizo heads towards 4E because their material is top notch and I would hate to give it up.
So chip in on my thread at wizards.com where I'm trying to shame them into answering the question!
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=944115
The acrimony is so thick I can't breathe.
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As it stands, I am already "cherry-picking" the things I like from Star Wars Saga Edition (the potential primer for 4th Edition!) and appying them to my ongoing 3.5 campaign. I started calling this rule set 3.75 as a joke.
Things I am currently using include...
1) A class-based AC bonus that progresses as a character progresses, one favoring those without the option of using armor to a degree.
2) A Damage Threshold based off of the character's Fortitude save, to simulate combat fatigue (much like the Staw Wars Saga rules).
3) Balanced versions of the PHB classes that can compete against all the new and shiny core classes from the Complete ... books. These 3.75 classes have built in access to appropriate feats developed after the PHB came out (for example, bonus Bard Music feats every 4 levels starting at 4th level or a bonus Rage feat given at every 5 levels of Barbarian).
I am also considering a Damage bonus based strictly on a PC's character level (for example, a 5th level charcter would do 1d6 + appropriate Modifier + character level damage). Thus, a wizard would use Intelligence for bonus damage with spells, but would still get the Strength damage bonus with his melee weapons.
Feel free to comment.
As for Paizo, I will follow thier lead; as a Forgotten Realms player from the "old grey box" era, I was appalled when I read the last pages of the new "Grand History of the Realms." And now Bane will replace Hextor as a core diety in the pantheon in an effort to simplfy concepts. I am done with WoTC!
When WotC first acquired D&D, we all said the same thing, I'm sure:
"They're going to ruin D&D and transform it into some kind of CCG..."
Surprisingly, they kept to the root of D&D and made 3E the best edition of all. But that was because they had A LOT of the people that worked on D&D 3E veterans from the days of 1E and 2E.
They're mostly gone now, and now a bunch of college-degree, suits who are not gamers at all are running our favorite past-time. They want profit, not happy and loyal gamers and fans, and they will mow over anyone standing in their way. D&D is dead after 2008. They fail to realize that:
1) D&D is NOT a software program that needs "upgrades" every second
2) That D&D is a tabletop RPG and can NEVER outsell or even hope to equal in sales the MMORPG fan-base (like World of Warcraft)
3) They fail to realize their most loyal customers that keep many people playing D&D to this day ARE us grognards.
PAIZO: I will purchase your products if you stay with 3.5E. There will be a vast market in 3.5E, I am sure of it. A lot of people are not satisfied with how much 4E is ruining a lot of what D&D has been for 30+ years, all for the sake of change itself and for the money. I remember a game created by TSR that made material for the sake of the game, not for profit. I hope you, Paizo, can continue to support THAT game, and not this scam of WotC's.
Oh, yeah, and if you guys ever manage to buy out D&D from Hasbro...awesome. I know you guys would remain true to the spirit of the game.
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3.75?
Bad idea.
Look at Arcana Unearthed - anyone actually play it? No one at my local plays it.
My group has played Arcana Unearthed since it came out, including the adventure 'Siege on Ebonring Keep', and we transitioned to Arcana Evolved and (I think, because our DM is subtle and I've not read it) we're playing through Ruins of Intrigue.
So, that makes it four years and change of our group playing through the Lands of the Diamond Throne and we've no plans on halting our adventurers, although we've had some brief hiatus times so our DM can rest.
Out of the five people in our group, not only does everyone own Arcana Unearthed, but also Arcana Evolved and most of us have the Spell Treasury and Transcendence, as well as all the books that Malhavoc released for AE and AE, plus some from various other publishers.
Also, I can tell you that over at OYT (...Okay, your turn) the messageboards about Monte and Sue's stuff, be it RPG or how their corgi is doing, I can say that there are quite a few fans around the world who play AE/AU and love it.
I'm sorry if no one around your local likes it, in my opinion it's their loss. If not for Pathfinder, nothing else would have my attention save for Ptolus and AE/AU, which shows you the level of standing I hold Paizo's products, by the way.
My group has played Arcana Unearthed since it came out, including the adventure 'Siege on Ebonring Keep', and we transitioned to Arcana Evolved and (I think, because our DM is subtle and I've not read it) we're playing through Ruins of Intrigue.
This is one of my favourites for my new D&D campaign starting in november - my players never mind which system we use, as long as the fun remains the same (which it does) - so the system has to fulfill my (gm/dm) wishes. I AM willing to try AE for this campaign - I already have the books, I just have to read them :-)
I will take a stroll to OYT for a summary first, I guess ...
I am mid 30's and have a ton on 3.5 material 50 books and about 4000 minis. I have no need for 4th edition....I can play for the next 30 odd years with my existing material quite happily.
I GMed MegaTraveller for five years when I was the only one with rule books. It's amazing how much fun can be had when players aren't poring over the rules looking for rules, classes, and items to exploit.
WotC should take heed :)
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Wotc is correct that 3.5 has problems -
1) It plays to slow;
2) It preps to slow;
3) The stat blocks are needlessly involved;
4) PCs too easily become magic item Christmas trees;
5) A number of rules (grappling etc.) are just too clunky etc.IMO
I can respect that, but I've also discovered many of those 'problems' are by no means universal and are usually fixed with some simple advice, not reworking the system to suit. My games run like greased lighting. I prep for two D&D games a week, and spend about an hour or so prepping for each one. I navigate stat blocks with little if any difficulty. And I know advice works, I've helped plenty of DM's.
-DM Jeff