I'm not sure if anyone will read this post, but I do wish to add my opinion:
I read your post, Danflor.
Actually the Paizo staff is reading these particular posts as if their life depends on it, because it does.
I just wanted to chime in as one of the (currently) less vocal members of the community at large and say that I will continue to support Paizo and their fine line of products, regardless of edition. I am not quite done with 3.5 yet. A clear and reasonable update would not be unwelcome either.
I believe Paizo has been loyal to us and deserve a modicum of loyalty in return. I don't relish making the transition to 4th nor the money pit that D&D will continue to be, and I would rather spend my money on products created by gamers than businessmen.
Although I recognize that Paizonians are businessmen (and women) as well as gamers, there is a love of the game and a respect for the history of it that permeates everything they do.
I strongly suspect I'm just adding my voice to the choir, but here goes:
While initially, I was quite enthusiastic about the prospect of 4e (as a reasonable improvement over 3.5e), both the direction WotC has been taking with the game previews as well as the "presentation" of the changes that loom on the horizon have left me ... well, disappointed. I realize that it is way too early to pass judgement on "the new game", which could very well be successful and playable ... but for me, somehow, it's already been decided.
I'm going to stick with 3.5E. If, and that is a very strong if, I will buy any 4e material, it will be to mine it for house-rules. Otherwise, I feel that 3.5 has a lot of potential, and few flaws, which can be easily remedied.
Houseruled 3.5E > Brand-New 4e.
Adding to that: Paizo's work on both Pathfinder and the Gamemastery Modules has been nothing short of phenomenal, and the "bond" between authors and customers here on the forums is very much unique.
So, in a nutshell: I'll still be around, no matter what Paizo does. But I'd appreciate it if you stayed with 3.5 (or create a 3.75e, or whatever).
(Sorry, if some of what I wrote didn't make any sense - I'm not a native speaker.)
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What everyone needs to remember is that the people making 4e are not corporate idiots trying to scrape up every last penny out of gamers. There are, in fact, people much like us. The things to avoid are not the 4e rules, but the tiny things that are the ideas of corporate idiots (such as digital minis and trading cards). Change is inevitable, so better to convert now when there is still time than wait until the next edition change when you fall even further behind.
Thanks for reading, by the way! :-D
Change is inevitable, so better to convert now when there is still time than wait until the next edition change when you fall even further behind.
Further behind what?
Further behind what?Change is inevitable, so better to convert now when there is still time than wait until the next edition change when you fall even further behind.
Yeah, honestly, I know several people that dropped out of the hobby back at the end of 1st edition, then came back with 3rd or 3.5 and didn't really feel like they were "behind."
If 4th edition doesn't appeal to me, and 5th edition comes out and is more in line with my tastes, I doubt that I will feel like I'm behind in any way. If 5th edition is intrinsically tied to 4th edition and its way of doing things, I'm not likely to want to jump in at that point anyway.
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I will stick with paizo products for 3.5/4.0/pathfinder/3.75(just a quick grapple fix would be great)/ because I know that paizo will ultimately do what is "right", not just "profitable". In this age of big business controlling everything it's nice to see ONE company actually care about something more than the $$$$$$. Paizo for life cabrones!
I don't post often on any messageboard, no real reason I just tend to see opinions that match mine and in number so I feel one more isn't going to change the way the ball is rolling. However this thread drew my interest once I found it.
First off I didn't like 3.0 and I held my opinion on it until I got my hands on the PBH and the DMG and read them through. I'll no doubt reserve opinion on 4e until I get the PBH and DMG. What I'm seeing on 4e so far isn't impressing me but regardless I'll hold my opinion. I just don't make judgements until I get the facts.
What brought me into 3.0 and 3.5 was in fact Paizo's handling of the Dungeon Magazine. I saw the first issue of the Shackled City AP and became intrigued. After that AP was over and I saw a new one was about to start (Age of Worms) I knew I had to subscribe. By this time I started picking up the core rules for 3.5 and other books. I still play D&D my way which is a hodgepodge of OD&D, 1st, 2nd and 3.0/3.5 (Alas I BELIEVED the words of the Foreward in the 1st edition DMG) so no change in the system will have a significant effect on my game.
Now we go to the heart of the matter, what I will buy. WotC consistantly produces mediocre and formulaic product which at best might have one or two things in an entire book which appeals to me. Every now and then a true pleasure slips through and I buy it but for the most part I do not. Paizo however I buy because of the quality they produce. I buy Pathfinder to read it and enjoy the story as much as claiming bits and pieces for my campaigns. The more Paizo produces on their own regardless the system the more I'll buy. (such as a Demonomicon of Iggwilv like book written by James Jacobs on the OGL Demon Lords and princes... THAT I'd buy today, yesterday even. I'll even offer my own homebrewed Demon Lords!)
While in closing I realize my post isn't an answer to the offered question by Mister Mona however it is a firm promise that I am a Paizo man for the quality and I have no plans in changing anytime soon.
I switched to 3.5 less than a year ago (after a lengthy hiatus of gaming in general).
I worry that 4.0 will just be replaced by 4.5 in a few short years, so I am not going to leap forward any time soon. I make most of my own game material anyway, so it's not like I need anything other than the core books to play in the first place.
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I remember, about two to three years ago, I was looking for a good published adventure to run my players through. I looked around for a bit, picked up a few of WotC's adventures like The Sunless Citadel, The Forge of Fury, The Speaker in Dreams (still my favourite of this series), etc... These were pretty good, but there was something missing, and eventually my group got sick of playing Heart of Nightfang Spire. That was the end of that.
Now we needed something new, and what did I behold when walking through my FLGS one day? The Shackled City Adventure Path Hardcover. I flipped through it a bit, and immediately realized that this was exactly what I was looking for. I picked it up, read it, and started running it. In fact, I'm still running it to this day, and my players have loved every minute of it so far.
As great as the adventure is, however, it did more than provide some entertainment for our group, it gave me a look into Dungeon magazine. So I pick up a Dungeon mag, and what do I find? "The Savage Tide begins NEXT MONTH!". So I subscribed.
Reading Savage Tide, I couldn't help but look forward to the looks on my players faces when they find themselves trapped by Vanthus, shipwrecked on the Isle of Dread, and meeting Iggwilv.
My opinion of Paizo kept going up and up, and then the announcement came: No more Dungeon or Dragon magazine. But what is Paizo announcing? Pathfinder! Seems cool. I'm in. May as well, I mean, I had these extra magazines that would have gone to waste anyway.
I get Pathfinder, and it's great. I've read 1 & 2 so far, both excellent publications and I'm already looking forward to #3. Seriously, this publication is incredible, but I don't really have to point that out to most of the people here, I think.
So that was long. But bear with me here, this is where the important part comes. I will not be moving up to 4th Edition. It doesn't appear to be for me. In fact, many of the things that Wizards has been doing wrong (in my opinion) to 3.5 D&D as of late appear to be the focus of this new edition. So to answer Erik Mona's question way back on page 1, I'm sticking with 3.5 D&D.
I sincerely hope that Paizo sticks with 3.5 for this reason. However, I can completely understand if they decide to move on to 4th Edition. After all, as great as Paizo is at pleasing its customers, the company's primary focus must be to remain profitable.
So to end this incredibly long and rambling post, I'll say this: If Paizo keeps Pathfinder 3.5 (or has a slight "3.75" upgrade), I will be on board 100%. Paizo can count on my $20 every month (plus extra for some GameMastery Modules and assorted other related products). If they switch to 4th Edition, I will bid Pathfinder adieu and finally get to work on my own campaign. And then I would thank everyone at Paizo for all the memorable adventures and encounters that my players and I have gotten through.
Here's to 3.5, may it continue to prosper for many years to come.
We've watched quietly as the evoltion of D&D has unfolded over the past 30 years. It will continue to evolve and the reality is that no matter what comes out it will have the moniker of Dungeons and Dragons. Unless it is so terribly unplayable that it can't be used at all and dies a painful death it will continue to be the gold standard of the RPG world - no matter the incarnation it exists in.
To not follow its direction is a brave and quite possibly a suicidal business path, with very few companies ever surviving it (White Wolf, Steve Jackson etc.) - usually because of their setting and diversity offered to the players or due to the diversity of product lines they can fall back on to support them in dire times.
Paizo may have that level of diversity, but I fear does not have a strong enough following in the new player market to survive a D&D style split. It's apparent that you became a threat to WotC with your success, hence the pulling in of the Dungeon and Dragon licenses to secure their planned transition to 4th Ed.
4th is coming, we will see and hear grumbling and groaning, grandious ideas, but in the end new players will only know 4th. After 1- 2 years only old a grey players will be playing 3.5 and we will see another generation of D&D players buying WotC books and lovng the game, wondering once again what was so cool about Greyhawk? Forgotten Realms is where I adventure and nothing could be better.
The Head Gnome
"Remember when an elf was a character class now that was cool."
What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around? I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days? Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?What do YOU want Paizo to do?
Thanks,
Erik Mona
Regardless of edition, I will continue to buy Paizo products.
What I want Paizo to do is maintain, or elevate, the standard of quality of products they are producing. If that means going whole hog with 4th edition, so be it.
I gave up on WotC's version of D&D as soon as 3.5 was announced. Meaning that I didn't spend ANY money on WotC product as I didn't like the direction in which they were taking D&D. And still don't.
However, Paizo (almost exclusively) filled a niche in my gaming repertoire and will continue to do so. In spite of game mechanics the quality and attention to detail in campaign and adventure material remains extremely relevant to me.
Best wishes for the Paizo team.
D&D is like pr0n. I know it when I see it. Right now (with WotC) I ain't seeing it.
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While I'm sure Paizo is happy to see so many loyal supporters, you shouldn't make a decision about anything until the 4e books come out.
I know I may have said this before, but keep an open mind about change.
I don't know why I have to wait until the books are out in order to decide; there are other factors involved besides the actual rules themselves. Perhaps it's the fact that I've spent hundreds of dollars on a system that I actually enjoy playing. Maybe it's because I see absolutely no need to change editions in the first place. 4th Edition could be a slice of fried gold and I still wouldn't buy it, I have too much 3.5 stuff left to do! Maybe when I've done everything I want to do with 3.5 I'll move up, but by then it'll probably be time for 4.5 or 5th Edition.
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Razz - i would not be so sure that 4E isn't going to save D&D. I do not know all of the numbers but i do know that the core books sell much better than those that follow. I know that as 3E matures fewer and fewer copies of the core books are selling as the game hits its saturation point.
If that pattern continues then D&D dies. 3E has done all it can to attract a new audience. It is now pushing its limits.
If D&D is going to survive it needs to show that it can be a viable product with a sustainable business model. 3.5 is a good set of rules. It definitely needs tweaks but it could stand on its own for at least a while longer. I agree with that.
The problem is, I see a direct comparison to say, Games Workshop and Wotc at this juncture. Both have/are releasing new editions to attact new customers.
And there is nothing wrong with that. But GW's for a time came at the expense of their older veterans. And it didnt turn out that well.(among other reasons).
I see thats exactly how Wotc is treading down the same path. And it may or maynot turn out well for them. We'll see.
"Wizards of the Coast is a business. They are fully aware of their bottom line. They know what sells and what does not. I trust that they spent a great deal of time and effort making the decision to produce a fourth edition of D&D. WotC is doing what all businesses do - try to stay in business, grow, and prosper."
Coke is a company, and they did market research and such, and look how much teh new coke turned out. Just because you spend a great deal of time and effort, doesnt mean all the stars will align with your plans.
Further behind what?
The rat race.
Further behind what?The rat race.
The problem with being in the rat race is, of course, that even if you win, you're still a rat. ;)
4th is coming, we will see and hear grumbling and groaning, grandious ideas, but in the end new players will only know 4th. After 1- 2 years only old a grey players will be playing 3.5 and we will see another generation of D&D players buying WotC books and lovng the game, wondering once again what was so cool about Greyhawk?
What new players?
You mean the ones that are cutting their teeth on WoW and Halo?
Tabletop is nothing to them.
3E came at the perfect time - without a serious challenge from online fantasy role play.
Different times now. Very different times.
The problem with being in the rat race is, of course, that even if you win, you're still a rat. ;)Further behind what?The rat race.
True that. This rat has finally found the exit (except for miniatures and Paizo, of course.) ;)
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Actually I think Paizo would be smarter to delay transition for a time, perhaps with a few module releases with 4th edition, but not a full blown transition. The reason is simple. WotC and Hasbro is a big company, if they make a goof, read the public interest wrong, they can survive bringing out a product that the demand is not present for. On the other hand Paizo is smaller and so needs to be much more careful. Paizo could burn their bridges with current customers that don't want to change, only to find out 4th edition was a totaly screw-up and not get new customers.
Right now they HAVE to delay. Tehy dont have the SRD or the OGL yet.
THATS the problem. Not whether 4e will be great or bomb. They need it to make a release for GenCon.
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Actually, at the time, I remember our group thinking it would be cool if the fluff text and art of MtG was used to create a new campaign setting. I thought that was going to be a given for an obvious marketing tie-in, but it never happened. Of course, WotC got away from the "new campaign setting every year" model that TSR seemed to have going at the end.
Ohhhhh! and now WizBro's new model is outlined as a new campaign setting per year. Let's see, in 3 years Eberron had 13 books, condense that down to 1 year, and there will be a whole campaign setting of 1 book per month. I wonder if that's so they can up their new books/month up an additional book...
Not for me thanks, I'll stick with what I've got, I'll go to my Barnes & Noble, sit down with a pad of paper and convert 4E ideas back to 3.5!
I've said it elsewhere, but I should say it here:
If Paizo stays 3.5e, I will be able to play the material.
If Paizo goes 4e, I will probably be able to play the material.
If Paizo goes 3.75e, I will probably not WANT to play the material.
From what we've heard so far, odds are my gaming group will go 4e. That won't break 3.5e material because we still own all the books we've got, and we still know how to play this edition. But if Paizo modifies the rules, requiring us to learn a third variant, that's effort I probably won't bother with any more than I bother with any of the other D20 systems out there.
Simply stated, 4e will either be "better" than 3.5e or it won't. It'll take a good year to figure this out. We can always fall back to 3.5e, we being both the players and Paizo. I'd say that Paizo should convert to 4e as soon as they reasonably can. If sales drop, THEN ask us why. If nobody's playing 4e, you can always revert to 3.5e, where the customers are. But if you don't convert to 4e, you contribute to the fragmentation of the market, which none of us needs. A third, 3.75e is even worse.
We'll never know if 4e is better unless we try it.
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Our hobby is shrinking. There are far fewer people buying RPG books than there were ten years ago. Someone needs to attract people like the WoW players or else our beloved game is going to keep spiraling into oblivion. I can't think of anyone better positioned to do this than a large corporation like Hasbro.
I keep hearing people say that, but proof of some sort?
Are they buying less RPG books, or are they buying less WOTC books, because there are alot more choices now, between other games and third party folks?
I personally as a fan and a retailer would love for there to be continued support for 3.5. I think that there are a lot of people who are frustrated with the thought of tossing out all their current books because WOTC decided that it was time to turn out a new product. And while the argument of "No on says you have to buy the new books" will always be around, having someone producing product for 3.5 after the release of 4.0 will encourage more players to continue playing the game they already love. I am certain that there are people who would still be playing the new releases for the NES or for the Dreamcast if there were companies still putting product out for it ... however it is not the case. I really like 3.5, flaws and all ... and love, LOVE, what the guys at Paizo are doing with Pathfinder and the dedication that I saw from their staff over years of production of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. So, if there was anyone who I think should be championing all those fans unwilling to convert at the behest of the larger corporate mammoth I think that Paizo should be the one. Be the little engine that could guys, there are millions of Linux users out there who will agree that you don't have to follow the crowds.
-Ronin.46 aka Scott from the O'Fallon Illinois Fantasy Shop
(my opinion is not the official opinion of the Fantasy Shop, but is a darn smart opinion nonetheless)
On that thought,.....
hypothetical here: what if the SRD component of 4.0 never exists? What happens then?I think that would be crazy, but I also thought once upon a time that they'd never cancel Dungeon or Dragon, because that would be crazy.
If they force companies to stay with 3.5 OGL then they'll likely be tossing away a sizeable share of the "previous player" market to other companies. I'd say about 20%. I think that would be a weak gamble on their part.
At that point, it's 3.5 for many of us. Though we don't want to buy a bunch of new textbooks, a single fat book book full of 3.75 revisions to fix that which continues to ail the current system might have a good chance at juicy sales, especially if it was shared and used industrywide amongst the many major gaming companies. Fostering the growth of your own competition is sometimes a good thing for a company (especially if the number one company in the industry is freakishly dominant), and if Paizo spearheaded some fantastic revisions and then gave them away to OGL, they, in concert with these other companies, might really put a dent in the market.
Our hobby is shrinking.I keep hearing people say that, but proof of some sort?
Check out the chat with Lisa Stevens.
I still love that my question turned into the glomp-fest! Paizo ftw!
Will they be dogs at your feet, or wolves at your door?
Either way...it will be ruff.
(Sorry couldn't resist. :P )
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Check out the chat with Lisa Stevens.Our hobby is shrinking.I keep hearing people say that, but proof of some sort?
Interesting....but no hard numbers.
Ten years ago predates 3.0 if I recall right, and there was only one kid on the block for D&D.....
I'm looking for a bit more that just that.
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linky
I'll already knowLG's are dropping from GW's data...and there numbers have a reason behind them(bad treatment of them from GW). And the report also ties in GW as well.
I was looking for RPG's in general. Plus, those are 2005 numbers printed in 2006.
Where are 2006 and first half of 2007?
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I'm curious about the market too. I recall a few years ago hearing that the number of people playing D&D was bigger at the time (2003?) than during the supposed golden age in the 80's. But now numbers have been going down since before 3E...
All I know is that there was a mind-bogglingly large number of people at GenCon. It seemed like a lot more to me than there were the last time I went in 1996. I don't know the numbers of course.
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I'm curious about the market too. I recall a few years ago hearing that the number of people playing D&D was bigger at the time (2003?) than during the supposed golden age in the 80's. But now numbers have been going down since before 3E...
*Nods* With say, Games workshop you can look at their finacial records(as they are a publicly traded company) and look at things like units sold, net profits and the like, sales by continent.....and you can see in hard numbers.
With RPG's it looks like you really cant, its more guesstimates.
Stay with 3.5, Erik. Or come up with your own Pathfinder RPG. Paizo is the best company in gaming, period, right now AFAIAC. I am a fan of every one of your products I have seen. It would be a shame if Pathfinder were to convert to 4e.
On that thought,.....
hypothetical here: what if the SRD component of 4.0 never exists? What happens then?I think that would be crazy, but I also thought once upon a time that they'd never cancel Dungeon or Dragon, because that would be crazy.
One reason why there would be no SRD for 4e:
No compatibility with D&DI. It just doesn't seem possible to write a program that will allow for all the various things a third party publisher would create. That means whoever makes 4e stuff is either not going to be in D&DI or WotC. You can tell WotC is banking on this D&DI thing to take off.|
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One reason why there would be no SRD for 4e:
No compatibility with D&DI. It just doesn't seem possible to write a program that will allow for all the various things a third party publisher would create. That means whoever makes 4e stuff is either not going to be in D&DI or WotC. You can tell WotC is banking on this D&DI thing to take off.
Interesting thought. I wonder if its possible to add 3rd party stuff to the DDI.
And yes absolutely Wotc is bankingon the DDI to take off.....
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Too many posts to go through them all, but I wanted to throw an idea out there:
Maybe the next product should be system agnostic. Produce an adventure path that does not rely on a specific system. That is what people are really buying from you. Your ideas. Have downloadable suppliments that that stat out the things and NPCs for 3.5 and then for 4.0 when you do get it. Invite other designers/gamers to submit stats and change notes for their favorite system.
Anyway just an idea that leaves room without closing any paths.
Keith
They've kind of come down on that, and I agree with their decision. If it is 'system neutral', than it won't be a good fit for anyone. If they have to do the work to make it fit multiple systems, they won't have the manpower.
I like them staying 3.5.
Though I have said that they would have to pry 3.5 from my cold, undead fingers, i have yet some loyalty for Paizo. you gave us so many helpful tips. But then Dragon ended. I felt mad at WotC, mad at Paizo. But even though I no longer get Dragon from you, I yet have loyalty. I will go with 4th edition if I must, though I will not like it.
Just, please, don't change. Stick with 3.5.
I'm interested in what 4e has to offer - I'll certainly buy the initial release, and if I like it I'll buy more.
That said, I also like Paizo products - particularly Pathfinder.
Common sense tells me Paizo will convert to 4e, and I hope you do, as I think a 3.75 will probably kill the company. That said, even if you don't go to 4e (and I do) I'll still buy Pathfinder as no matter what edition its written for its still a quality product.
I'm curious about the market too. I recall a few years ago hearing that the number of people playing D&D was bigger at the time (2003?) than during the supposed golden age in the 80's. But now numbers have been going down since before 3E...
*Nods* With say, Games workshop you can look at their finacial records(as they are a publicly traded company) and look at things like units sold, net profits and the like, sales by continent.....and you can see in hard numbers.
With RPG's it looks like you really cant, its more guesstimates.
Well, we should be able to look at some hard data... specifically, I'm thinking the publication information in Dungeon/Dragon. Don't magazines have to list some specific numbers about circulation in the small print that 99.9% of people ignore?
Anyways, there was a thread about it earlier, as someone was doing a study on the magazines for university. I'll go dig around and see if I can come up with a link.
Edit: Link to the thread I mentioned, but no hard numbers there... maybe I'll go dig through my Dragon collection later to look at some of the issues mentioned with the circulation data.
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Well, we should be able to look at some hard data... specifically, I'm thinking the publication information in Dungeon/Dragon. Don't magazines have to list some specific numbers about circulation in the small print that 99.9% of people ignore?Anyways, there was a thread about it earlier, as someone was doing a study on the magazines for university. I'll go dig around and see if I can come up with a link.
Edit: Link to the thread I mentioned, but no hard numbers there... maybe I'll go dig through my Dragon collection later to look at some of the issues mentioned with the circulation data.
How is that any different from surveys from retailers?
Only a fraction of folks have subscriptions.....so how does that effect the whole?
I've seen the dragon/dungeon numbers....they've done up, then have come down...I think the high was near 3rd if I recall right...its over at enworld, Eric I believe posted it up.
But how does that show numbers of the whole? Like I said with GW...I can SEE actual sales numbers.