dungeon grrl...i think i love you.
don't anyone tell mrs ancientsensei.
fiendish dire weasel: i said i'm coming to visit. vote for me to win superstar and maybe i'll take up writing adventures right next door!
and i think agressive marketing and sticking with the vision that paizo has for dnd will keep the slow death of dnd at bay. we'll see for sure after 4.0, and if it isn't dnd anymore, then version 3.p will send all of that money paizo's way.
I'm telling sensei! Iron DM or no, you're going in the dog house mista!!!
:-)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
Just to deposit another fiftieth of a dollar:
I will continue my Pathfinder subscription, regardless of the edition it is published for. I mostly read the modules for inspiration about my own GMing (DM? So you only run dungeons, but a CM takes over for urban scenes, and a WM for overland travel?), for the new world, and in no small part for the story.
Why not buy a novel, then? Because i always found that my own imagination can make things way more compelling than most writers ever manage.
That being said, i am immensely critical about 4th edition (too many things that just rub me entirely the wrong way), and would currently expect to prefer a 3.5 pathfinder over a 4.0 one - but i don't know the rules yet, they might manage to surprise me in a positive way for once.
As I am in my 40s Greyhawk is synonymous to D&D for me too. I’m surprised that you received Pathfinder 3 and put it aside. Fort Rannick could easily be placed in a variety of areas. While Sterich, Geoff, Yoemanry especially lend themselves to it, it could be any overrun fort on the frontier in rough terrain. It is a great adventure that is far more than a Steading-of-the-Hill-Giant-King giant whacking. The Gamemastery line has been excellent too, Bloodsworn Vale (W1) could be placed in Geoff, Yoemanry, Perrenland, Theocarcy of the Pale, or Ratik. Gallery of Evil (U1) can be placed in any large city. Crown of the Kobold King (D1) can be placed in any lightly settled area. They’re all really very flexible. The probability that any new Greyhawk material will be created approaches zero. While you’ll likely always need to make some adjustments, I find it far easier to tweak than to create from whole cloth. If nothing else I find reading a good module inspirational, sending me down paths that I wouldn’t have gone down otherwise in the campaign.Hi all –
I am thus far disappointed in the usefulness of Pathfinder. Being a Greyhawk culturist, I find my reading of Pathfinders' Galarion disenfranchised (someone will of course correct my misspelling of their setting). The story line is great and the flavor of the setting is excellent. However, without places like CanonFire!.com authors willing to do the work for me (the converting and placing of Pathfinder into a more Greyhawk or as termed, Pathhawk, setting) I am unlikely to use it. In fact, I received issue 3 on Saturday 2007.11.10, flipped through it and then promptly placed it in my magazine rack.
My purchases of Pathfinder will likely end after this Adventure Path. I have yet to purchase any of the Game Mastery modules, but I did buy the Critical Deck, and just...
I grew into gaming with Greyhawk and it has and probably will always be my spiritual D&D home. i have read through a couple of the pathfinder modules and indeed the game mastery ones and with a little work they would indeed fit in with the camoaign world of choice of my group (which has been running for more than 20 years now).
second ed. turned D&D into a cash cow with all the extra stuff that was produced to 'add spice' to the game, a scenario which was sadly repeated with third and 3.5 editions.
sadly WoTC with their corporate mindset don't seem to have taken an interest in us long term gamers, those of us who are like the bird man of alcatraz... set in our ways.
i would like to thank you Erik, James and all those other guys who have done such a grand job of keeping gamers like me interested in D&D when the guys that own it just want us to empty our pockets to line their own. Paizo has been one of the greatest assets to D&D in the last 5 years, at least in my own humble opinion.
i will not be buying 4.0 (i cant afford to buy all that AND a laptop just to continue my hobby) and will definitely check out a 3.5(mkII) from Paizo and look forward to your own and indeed your contributor's good works.
in the immortal words of Jack Sparrow (that's captain Jack Sparrow!) 'yo ho, yo ho, it's a Paizo life for me...'
Kendrik
I have two of ever gaming book I use, one pagespace and one e-space. If we can't buy an electronic copy, my girlsfriend scans it in (as our legally allowed, non-distributed back-up, which we never share, and only make of books we bought new)
If we can buy an e-copy, we do that.
I absorb and pionder new books in pagespace. I search them and use them in the gming pit as e-copies, using seach functions to find what I need.
RPG Superstar 2013
|
I have two of ever gaming book I use, one pagespace and one e-space. If we can't buy an electronic copy, my girlsfriend scans it in (as our legally allowed, non-distributed back-up, which we never share, and only make of books we bought new)
If we can buy an e-copy, we do that.
I absorb and pionder new books in pagespace. I search them and use them in the gming pit as e-copies, using seach functions to find what I need.
i have decided. i DO love you, dungeon grrl.
Paizo has EARNED my respect (and money), WotC has not......
I've no interest in D&D 4.0. Tried to keep an open mind, but the more I hear, the more I realize (sadly) D&D is not going to be my game any more.
That being said, I would absolutely love to see Paizo go native and publish their own d20 ruleset. To my mind, this would enable them to become a truely independent publisher.
'nuff said.
I quite enjoy Pathfinder/Gamemastery, and I think there's a lot to offer there. I also quite enjoy what I've read so far of the 4e material that's coming down the pipe. I will be purchasing 4e, and I would love to see Pathfinder stuff in that same vein.
|
Anything eloquent or meaningful I could say has no doubt been said somewhere in the glut of posts above me.
So I'll say it this way.
Paizo's products have been showing nothing but solid production values. Paizo's customer support has been excellent. In terms of material received for money given, I have no qualms about feeling cheated by anything produced by this company.
I cannot say any of those things about WotC in the last year or so. The books have become ever more hollow fluff, full of redundant deities, alternate rules that I'll never use, spells that are essentially reflavored versions of older spells, feats for things you shouldn't need feats for in the first place, and fluff that has no merit to any game world I've ever run. I have had no luck with any official support from WotC, despite having a fair collection of their materials, and as such having proven myself a loyal customer - up until lately. In the recent books, my outlay of cash has been increasing, and the quality and amount of material declining. More, they have been utterly failing to treat me, and the many others who have given their time and money to this game, anything remotely close to the respect deserved.
If Paizo goes 4e, I'll go 4e. But if Paizo sticks with the older OGL, or makes a 3.75 version, I'll stick with that instead. Quality material and customer dedication make it a no-brainer choice. I'm even going to be giving Paizo products as gifts to my gamer friends this year.
Erik,
As a long-time gamer(pushing my third decade) I must say that the Pathfinder series is a fantastic piece of gaming material. I for one am glad that I took a chance and continued with Paizo's published work. If the "Rise of the Runelords" is indicative of what to expect from the current and future Paizo products, I am staying with you. A member of my game group point-blank said "I'm not giving those schysters at WotC one more dime of my money...even if it grants me magical powers." So keep on with the high quality 3.5 and the true gamers will respond.
Sincerely,
Babyface Muldoon
...I would absolutely love to see Paizo go native and publish their own d20 ruleset. To my mind, this would enable them to become a truely independent publisher.
'nuff said.
Totally agree; take the present OGL and refine it in a direction that remains faithful to the "pen & paper" play of fantasy d20. I say fantasy, cause quite frankly, D&D has become branded to the point where I believe 4e and D&D will "virtually" {no pun intended} refer to the same game -- a pigeonhole of sort; so that other vendors would only be able to create D&D content and not a game system that takes a varied path. Whereas, when we say 3.5; it could pertain to D&D, AE, Iron Heroes, Cthulu etc., etc..
Paizo could take the 3.5 reigns and totally create something like "Dragons & Warlords Evolved". Then you can do some of the following that the 4e folks have been screaming for, but keep the fundamental feeling of table top play and compatibility to a system that folks have heavily invested in while embracing the newer concepts. Such an idea would continue to make profit...sales of a new game system without requiring a totally new investment of print for upgrades by the community, just to play our favorite game.
Example:
A) Get rid of the "Cross Skill" issues.
B) Dismiss the present magic system; perhaps develop a feat based magic system.
C) Improve on the current feats and provide an "mastery of feats" for personal character development.
D) Some have said; remove the "Classes" and everyone starts with the same adventure template and players decide on traits and adventure paths/careers for their character.
yadayadayada....
You get the gist. So Paizo...you listening? Take the ball and run with it!! Yes, I know that this would put you in direct competition with WotC, but your hand is being forced by the great beast of Hasboro. You your self said, you only need a certain percentage of the market to be successful. I believe you can, you already have a niche in the gaming community; now it's time to spread your wings and soar above the clouds with a new enlightenment.
Eric:
I posted my reasons for saying the heck with WOTC (to be nice about it) on the appropriate thread as you asked. Hopefully you guys check it out. So here I will say....
I won't go 4th edition, even if Paizo does. Nothing against you folks, you gained my respect with your awesome work with Dragon and Dungeon. So here is my vote, continue 3.5 if your allowed to, or go with a 3.75 if you want to polish the rules up. In doing so, make sure you don't aleniate the splat books thousands of us have purchased in the last few years. The expense we chose to put into the 3.5 for many is the reason why we aren't switching games.
Paizo does not need WOTC. It is time to compeletly head out on your own. I honestly believe you'd have far more support (sales) than you may expect. There are a lot of people who will still go 4th edition regardless. At the moment few expect any publisher to continue with 3.5, but as soon as one does, a lot of those 4th edition people will suddenly change their minds.
Paizo already is highly respected (a lot more than WOTC) in the gaming community. People stick with them only because there isn't anyone who's willing to actually give them competition. You guys can, and should.
Go for the Gold.
I hate to burst a bubble and all but I really think whoever said as wizards goes so goes the industry really have it right on, and I think that paizo pretending to anything else is more than a little misleading.
I don't take offense at this, but I do think that you, and some others that I've seen defend 4th edition, seem to be trying to oversimplify the concerns of those that would prefer to stay with 3.5 so that its easier to dismiss these disagreements as "what we've heard between each edition."
Also, you seem to indicate that a large number of the posters that are for a "3.75" Paizo game have asked for major differences in the game. I've not seen this borne out. Some people have made suggestions along those lines, but most that I've seen seem to indicate that they would like a 3.75 with a few minor tweaks.
Its not intellectually honest to assume that because some people have complained between editions before, that the same people are complaining now, or that they are somehow misrepresenting what they will really do. I will not likely pick up anything 4th edition, but I've happily converted to 2nd edition, to 3rd edition, and only really had reservations about converting to 3.5, but eventually did so because it was obvious to me (at the time) that surely if they release a "point five" edition of the rules this close to the inception of 3rd edition, 3rd edition as a whole must be sticking around for a while.
I also think you are doing a disservice to Paizo by somehow insinuating that they are pandering by asking about what their fans want them to do. Erik has made it clear that they would prefer to support 4th edition, but it may not be possible to do this early on, and there is a chance that 4th edition may not being going in a direction that charts the same as Pathfinder, even if Erik regards this as an outside chance. I don't think there is any dishonesty or politicking going on in this stance.
Also, by implying that you can "burst our bubbles," you seem to be implying that you either know better than the rest of us how 4th edition and the industry as a whole will end up, or that there are clear facts that we are ignoring. I do not believe either circumstance is in evidence. I've said many times, 4th edition may do well, but if it does, and it goes the direction that it seems to be going, it will have to do well without me.
Which boils down to the main crux of this whole discussion. No one really knows how 4th edition will do, or what the RPG industry will look like. The Paizo guys are very graciously asking us what we want. Not what we think others should want, or what others should be willing to accept that they do not like for the sake of the industry, but what we, as consumers want. I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't like 4th edition or what its trying to do, but at the same time, I do wish some of the people that support 4th edition would quit telling me why I have my opinion or what my opinion should be.
And on that note, let me reiterate, if you are fond of what you have heard of 4th edition so far, that's great, and I hope the game serves you well. Also, I would also like to say that there are a great many 4th edition supporters or near supporters that have no problem with those that prefer to stay with 3.5 and understand, if they don't agree with, their positions, and to them I would like to say thank you yet again. I'd prefer to hear well reasoned opposing viewpoints to vacuous and overly simplistic affirmations (and yes, a lot of 3.5 supporters are indeed guilty of that, but not all of them by a long shot).
Wow . . . can you tell I just stood in line 12 hours to get a Wii for my kids for Christmas?
Well I have only praise for Pazio and the whole Pathfinder Series. 3.5 is great for me as I plan to actually run the game in Hero with my Sunday group but having played 3.5 for many years find converting it very easy. I know what the mechanics mean in both and convert easily. Plus I may run it with my Tuesday group in 3.5 instead of making them learn a new game system as they are more hack and slash group. I think that even if you do convert to 4.0 I'll still keep my subscription as the content, story and such is just too good not to. So to put it simple I'm not going anywhere, Pazio is the one for me! Plus all the other great stuff you produce is great! The cards, Maps, Initative tracker is one of the best, plus the on line pdf support is simple FATASTIC for myself.
Again Thanks!
I could be wrong but the best I think they could do is support both, and if 4th edition is at all backwards compatible (ie i don't have to change DCs' a lot and they still have classes ) why would support for 3.x be more than perhaps a appendix of alternative stats?
Q: Will there be conversions for 3.5 to 4E?
Short Answer: The basic rules of the game are similar enough in the new edition that most skilled players and DMs should be able to translate material from one edition to the other with a reasonable amount of work. Like any element of game design it’s as much art as science, so complete and literal conversion rules would be so long and cumbersome as to be un-publishable.
Long Answer: People have a lot of different opinions about what it means to “convert” characters from one edition to another.
When we say that there won’t be official conversion rules from 3rd Edition to 4th Edition, what we mean is that won’t be providing a literal translation of every single character option between the two editions. To do so would effectively require us to simultaneously re-publish every book we’ve released in the last eight years.
However, most players and DMs will be able to convert the characters and adventures they’re playing right now into the new, 4th-Edition versions of those characters and adventures. The basic rules of the game are extraordinarily similar—anyone who knows how to play D&D right now is 90% of the way to knowing how to play 4th Edition D&D—and the game still features the popular races, classes, and monsters that players have known and loved for over 30 years.
Your dwarf fighter will still feel like a dwarf fighter, your halfling rogue will still feel like a halfling rogue, and your beholder will still feel like a beholder. (Of course, all three will be easier and more fun to play than before!)
We’re encouraging players and DMs to start new characters and campaigns in order to learn the new game from the ground up. However, we certainly expect plenty of folks to instead spend a few minutes translating their Eighth-level human cleric into a new Eighth-level human cleric, and that’s definitely possible.
Well, that doesn't seem like things will be very compatible to me (despite the last sentence), and I believe that sentiment (lack of compatibility) has already been declared several times over.
Judging from this response in the FAQ and from the podcast discussing the new Monster Manual (with the new encounter system demonstrated), there isn't going to be an easy way to convert the editions because the design philosophies are vastly different. This isn't changing up DCs, this is rewriting entire encounters...every encounter. Treasure will have to be adjusted as well
Supporting both 3.X and 4.0 does not make much sense to me, but I'm not in a position to make decisions for anybody at Paizo.
I love how some folk are decrying how wizards is loosing the Dnd feel, then go on to recommend classless systems, a complete revamping of magic into a series of feats , a non niche system and all of these things that seem to define dnd a lot more than any amount of feat cards and 30 level systems and getting rid of wish ever will.
You're a funny guy Logos; the decrying you expose in your rambles has been placed out of context.
So let me re-iterate the sentence you chose to ignore: my iteration of examples are a list of those ideas "...that the 4e folks have been screaming for, but keep the fundamental feeling of table top play and compatibility to a system that folks have heavily invested in while embracing the newer concepts."
Emphasis is on the pro 4e folks. Which, btw, I think are some good ideas; just not to the point of needing to rewirte an entire game system that would preclude the large investment I made into 3.5.
|
|
If or when Paizo switches to 4E. My Subscription to the Gamemastery Modules will end.
Not to Punish Paizo for switching, but I will not be switching to 4E and I have no plans on buying anything designed for 4E. I realize I am just .0000000000001% of the Overall D&D Community and my purchases won't make or break any Company. Paizo will have to stay in touch with the Majority of the Community and I respect that.
I realize I am just .0000000000001% of the Overall D&D Community and my purchases won't make or break any Company. Paizo will have to stay in touch with the Majority of the Community and I respect that.
I wouldn't be too sure of that. It seems like the majority of posters on these boards are anti-4th edition at this point.
I would think that Paizo could carve out a niche for itself by catering to those who wish to stick with 3.X, especially if Paizo were able to team up with Goodman Games, Necromancer Games, Green Ronin and/or Mongoose.
No one that I game with is enthusiastically awaiting 4th edition and my group plans on sticking with 3.5 for years (we have Ptolus, Wilderlands of High Fantasy, Greyhawk and other materials to last us YEARS).
We have no intention of crating those up just because WoTC decided it was time to create Uber-D&D.
I would think that Paizo could carve out a niche for itself by catering to those who wish to stick with 3.X, especially if Paizo were able to team up with Goodman Games, Necromancer Games, Green Ronin and/or Mongoose.
This is my dream. No more WotC books to buy but still and oncomming stream of 3.5 edition Pathfinder, GameMastery, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Freeport and Necromancer Games Moduals.
It would be the perfect scenario in every way.
Alas..I dont see this happening (at least not with all the companies mentioned).
Green Ronin liquidatign all their 3rd editon material tells me they are done with 3.5
And to an even more upsetting degree, Goodman Games pretty much stopped productuion of new DDCs the instant the 4th edition announcement was made.
I salute Paizo for seeming to be the only company seriously considering remainign 3.5 and I pray you do.
It's only been in the last couple days that I finally decided I do not want to switch to 4e. The only thing that would ever compel me to do so would be Paizo switching over without any possibility of conversion.
My reason is simple and seems to be ubiquitous on these boards: I've already spent too much money on 3.5 to be okay with having to update again.
The initial reason I even joined D&D during the 3.0 2001 rollout was because it was so simple to join. Only 3 core rulebooks...that was it! Just three? Just three.
Then 3.5...I was pissed. But I bought in because Paizo bought in and I wanted to follow Dungeon Magazine (that was where I got my modules).
But now, it's just too much and we must, must ask ourselves, when is this going to stop? When will the editions stop? For the love of God I don't want to have to keep up with 7e or 8e (f%cking rebuying the Psionics Handbook WHICH I ALREADY HAD TO DO FOR THE "EXPANDED EDITION!"
I know you must stay afloat, you must make money and stay competitive, but I would love it, LOVE IT if Paizo stayed 3.5 (or 3.P).
I trust you guys. And the only thing I want to spend money on is what I want to spend it on, not what I HAVE to spend it on in order to keep playing D&D.
ASIDE: To all those that say, "Fine, just keep playing 3.5 then if you don't want to play 4e," I would, believe me I would if I could still find consistent support from module products, I just don't think that will be a reality unless Paizo stays.
I don't know that I can make any descision until I see 4E in its full glory.
Many of the ideas that I have seen do interest me, it will depend upon how successfully they implement them. In order for DnD to survive it must adapt.
I have been playing since 1978 and have pretty much played every edition, spent plenty of money on books and additional material including miniatures. I know that the WOTC is a corporation and their goal is to make money and about being able to attract as many gamers as possible. The future of DnD lies in a more electronic version.
If 4E can deliver a tabletop feel with all the bells and whistles of a PC game then all the better. Anyone who shuts it down before even seeing the finished product is doing themselves a disservice.
Erik, I think that Pathfinder is a fine product so far, but as this game evolves so should Pathfinder. I dont want to see Pathfinder/Paizo fail, I give you guys lots of kudos for listening to your readers, but I also know that the end result is for you guys to make money as well.
I think that many of the people who post here saying that they won't switch will change their mind if 4E is well done and successful.
I would like to see an unearthed arcana type book with a rules update for 3.5. No need to redo the PH or other core books, just a separate book with lots of good rules fixes like polymorph, LA, grappling etc.
3.75 seems to draw too much flak. Let's call it 3.6 (or 3.P!)
The editions will never stop. You can only make so many products for an edition before you run out of solid viable ideas. Then you need to make a new addition if you want to keep producing books and making money. The core rule books are always going to be the biggest sellers. So you need to put out new core books from time to time. However, if the new books are a genunine improvement over the previous material then I'm all for it. So far, I've seen that every edition of dnd is better than the one before it (IMO), so hopefully that trend will continue.
It's only been in the last couple days that I finally decided I do not want to switch to 4e. The only thing that would ever compel me to do so would be Paizo switching over without any possibility of conversion.
My reason is simple and seems to be ubiquitous on these boards: I've already spent too much money on 3.5 to be okay with having to update again.
The initial reason I even joined D&D during the 3.0 2001 rollout was because it was so simple to join. Only 3 core rulebooks...that was it! Just three? Just three.
Then 3.5...I was pissed. But I bought in because Paizo bought in and I wanted to follow Dungeon Magazine (that was where I got my modules).
But now, it's just too much and we must, must ask ourselves, when is this going to stop? When will the editions stop? For the love of God I don't want to have to keep up with 7e or 8e (f%cking rebuying the Psionics Handbook WHICH I ALREADY HAD TO DO FOR THE "EXPANDED EDITION!"
I know you must stay afloat, you must make money and stay competitive, but I would love it, LOVE IT if Paizo stayed 3.5 (or 3.P).
I trust you guys. And the only thing I want to spend money on is what I want to spend it on, not what I HAVE to spend it on in order to keep playing D&D.
ASIDE: To all those that say, "Fine, just keep playing 3.5 then if you don't want to play 4e," I would, believe me I would if I could still find consistent support from module products, I just don't think that will be a reality unless Paizo stays.
I don't understand what the fuss is. Paizo is putting out plenty of good material, and there is no holding a gun to your head to make you buy new rules supplements. If you don't want it then don't buy it- problem solved.
I would think that Paizo could carve out a niche for itself by catering to those who wish to stick with 3.X, especially if Paizo were able to team up with Goodman Games, Necromancer Games, Green Ronin and/or Mongoose.This is my dream. No more WotC books to buy but still and oncomming stream of 3.5 edition Pathfinder, GameMastery, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Freeport and Necromancer Games Moduals.
It would be the perfect scenario in every way.
Alas..I dont see this happening (at least not with all the companies mentioned).
Green Ronin liquidatign all their 3rd editon material tells me they are done with 3.5
And to an even more upsetting degree, Goodman Games pretty much stopped productuion of new DDCs the instant the 4th edition announcement was made.
I salute Paizo for seeming to be the only company seriously considering remainign 3.5 and I pray you do.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
|
I cannot in any way imagine WotC producing a rules set that it incompatible with the world we're creating. Their setting material and adventures might emphasize certain elements differently than ours, but I have a hard time believing this is really going to be a problem.
I don't think the Points of Light concept is going to be as hard-wired into the rules as you seem to.
I cannot in any way imagine WotC producing a rules set that it incompatible with the world we're creating.
Shall we take this to mean that Paizo has made a decision to convert to 4E, the only question being how soon you can do so logistically?
|
|
I cannot in any way imagine WotC producing a rules set that it incompatible with the world we're creating.Shall we take this to mean that Paizo has made a decision to convert to 4E, the only question being how soon you can do so logistically?
Good question... Erik's last few posts that I've read have sort of made me think the same thing. If the decision hasn't been made 100% it does sound like there's a thinning chance that they won't switch - which is disheartening. To use a good old line... "I have a bad feeling about this."
I don't think the Points of Light concept is going to be as hard-wired into the rules as you seem to.
I'm glad to see you are remaining optimistic.
But from the glimpses and hints that have been revealed to us (which I fully admit aren't concrete enough, and have already been changed on a couple of occasions) it seems that 4th Edition rules are being designed with a "more, faster, greater" approach.
More encounters. More creatures during an encounter. More slaughtering of the "baddies."
I get the feeling that if Rise of the Runelords was done as 4th Edition, Thistletop, as written, is grossly underpopulated.
Now, that isn't such a bad thing. But it would put a damper on the ecology of Thistletops inhabitants that has been created. It would make it a little harder to swallow.
This is based off of, what is essentially, barely substantiated rumor. But I am curious (perhaps morbidly so) how your staff will work with the changes.
I think that might just be enough for me to give the firsth 4th Edition Pathfinder a look... We will have to wait and see.
EDIT:
I cannot in any way imagine WotC producing a rules set that it incompatible with the world we're creating.Shall we take this to mean that Paizo has made a decision to convert to 4E, the only question being how soon you can do so logistically?
To be fair, none of the Paizo staff (especially Eric Mona) have ever given us any reason to believe otherwise. The closest they have come has been to be brutally honest that not switching was still possible.
I cannot in any way imagine WotC producing a rules set that it incompatible with the world we're creating.Shall we take this to mean that Paizo has made a decision to convert to 4E, the only question being how soon you can do so logistically?
Heck, I'm impressed Erik's still reading this thread. :)
But, yeah, I think that's the idea.
Unless the rules are completly incompatible with Paizo's vision for its products, it's almost certainly a matter of when.
I hold out a slimmer of hope that the 3.5 vs. 4.0 battle is still on for Pathfinder #3, however. ;)
I cannot in any way imagine WotC producing a rules set that it incompatible with the world we're creating.Shall we take this to mean that Paizo has made a decision to convert to 4E, the only question being how soon you can do so logistically?
In all fairness, i think if Erik decides they are going to 4e no matter what, he'd tell us.
They still haven't seen the rules., they still haven't seen the new OGL. (Okay, they may have but last I knew no purlbisher had). Until they have those things, no final definition is possible.
On the other hand, Wizards can read these baords. If erik starts sounding like he thinks 4e is a pile of poo, I suspect he'll get to see the rules when he has Mikey go buy him a copy from Pegasaurus Games.
If 4e is vaible, paizo will go to it. It's going to have the biggest market sahre. If it isn't, either because the rules are worse than the season finale of Star Trek Voyager or because the new OGL makes the Flash Gordon series look brilliant, Paizo will do something else.
But until he sees what he'd be dealing with, all erik can do is sound cheerful and not settle on either side of the fence. i suspect it's not doing his blood pressure any good, either.
But until he sees what he'd be dealing with, all erik can do is sound cheerful and not settle on either side of the fence. i suspect it's not doing his blood pressure any good, either.
I think there's a world of difference between "not settl[ing] on either side of the fence" and saying "I cannot in any way imagine WotC producing rules that are incompatible with the world we're creating." The former is non-committal, whereas the latter is more or less excluding the possibility of not converting to 4E. Erik has shown himself time and again to be a straight shooter and I admire him for that, even if I don't always agree with the stance he takes. Seems to me that we've just been told, barring some extraordinary circumstance, that Paizo will go 4E.
I'm fine with that. It's probably a wise business decision and it's what I expected they'd do anyway. However, I think it's pretty naive to read Erik's comment as fence sitting. He's been consistently clear that 4E is Paizo's preferred option and they'd only consider other alternatives as a last resort. This has led some to see a glimmer of hope Paizo wouldn't get on the 4E train -- a misplaced hope, I might add.
Mind you, I'm not currently a Paizo customer and I've already decided to look elsewhere for my fantasy gaming these days, so my opinion on the matter counts for nothing.
I scanned thru most of this thread...I'd probably be reading for a long time.
My opinion on all of this is such:
I won't buy 4e, mainly because it changes things in a way that makes almost every resource I have available to GM kinda useless.
If Pathfinder changes to 4e, I will cancel my subscribtion. The reasons for this are the same.
4e changes far too much for my liking and I don't have the desire to invest more money into a game that will most likely become obsolete in another couple of years with no chance of using what books I own anymore.
3e, while being different, was/is still (A)D&D at its core. 4e, from what I've gathered so far, breaks with that tradition.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
I think there's a world of difference between "not settl[ing] on either side of the fence" and saying "I cannot in any way imagine WotC producing rules that are incompatible with the world we're creating." The former is non-committal, whereas the latter is more or less excluding the possibility of not converting to 4E. Erik has shown himself time and again to be a straight shooter and I admire him for that, even if I don't always agree with the stance he takes. Seems to me that we've just been told, barring some extraordinary circumstance, that Paizo will go 4E.
I think you are reading "a little" too much into that quote. What Eric has said that he has faith in WotC to produce a game that can support settings other than the default "points of light."
I think that trust is quite well-placed and warrented. After all, they do plan to continue to support Eberron, and not "point of light it."
I think you are reading "a little" too much into that quote. What Eric has said that he has faith in WotC to produce a game that can support settings other than the default "points of light."
You're right: the context of Erik's quote is important. However, I don't think it changes much. In the end, what Erik said does amount to his saying it's pretty much inconceivable that 4E won't be completely usable with Golarion, with minimal to no change.
|
|
I don't understand what the fuss is. Paizo is putting out plenty of good material, and there is no holding a gun to your head to make you buy new rules supplements. If you don't want it then don't buy it- problem solved.
Who's problem?
I won't buy products from WotC in the forseeable future. Ergo, if I can't use Paizo's products without the core books, I may not buy Paizo products. If I stop buying from Paizo, Erik and friends have a problem.
Even if a majority of gamers go to 4th edition, it doesn't necessarily follow that Paizo should also switch. Having 90% of a 3.5 market that is 1/3 of the 4.0 market is better than having 10% of the 4.0... Of course future growth needs to be considered as well.
As for me, I get the first 12 Pathfinders automatially from be previous Paizo subscriptions. If the 3rd AP is 4th edition, there is about a 90% chance I discontinue until I have a chance to make an informed decision. So for me personally, if Paizo does switch, I hope it is after we have a real sense of what we're getting into.
You're right: the context of Erik's quote is important. However, I don't think it changes much. In the end, what Erik said does amount to his saying it's pretty much inconceivable that 4E won't be completely usable with Golarion, with minimal to no change.
The quesiton is, will the Paizo writers embrace the 4e rules, or will they have to write with something they dislike?
I'd hate to be a writer who came into something with one game system they enjoyed and then were forced to write with one they weren't.
"Sorry, guys - no more D&D, now we're supporting the Tank Girl RPG!"
Ugh.
The quesiton is, will the Paizo writers embrace the 4e rules, or will they have to write with something they dislike?
Having written my fair share over the years, let me tell you that freelance writers have -- how shall I say it? -- very flexible morality when it comes to writing material they don't personally like.
That said, I don't get the impression there are many people among Paizo's staff or stable of writers for whom rules matters are much of an issue. It's the fluff that's important and they seem resolved to being able to pare away the fluff they don't like and substitute their own. I seriously doubt anyone will turn their nose up at 4E because of the proliferation of per encounter abilities or the downplaying of Vancian magic. Indeed, I expect quite the opposite.
Not to add new drama to the thread, but there is an unspecified deadline when they have to get the new rules in order to plan out the development of August (Gencon season) releases.
That unspecified date, as I recall from Erik during a Tuesday night chat, was somewhere around mid January. Subject to his correction of course, this is second hand information from a casual chat.
Though, this thread started October 23rd.
I've said I'd switch of Paizo does, and I haven't changed my mind. Though ya know? I'd happily stay if they didn't.
I agree that Erik's posts as of late tell me that 4th edition will be comming to Pathfinder.
The best I can hope for now is that the 3rd Adventure Path and the Campaign Setting Hardcover are 3.5 before the big change comes and I stop buying.
I agree that Erik's posts as of late tell me that 4th edition will be comming to Pathfinder.
The best I can hope for now is that the 3rd Adventure Path and the Campaign Setting Hardcover are 3.5 before the big change comes and I stop buying.
Well, I will hate cancelling Pathfinder, GameMastery Modules and (upcoming) Pathfinder Chronicles subscriptions if Paizo goes v4.0 -- but that is the way it will have to be.
What scraps I've seen of D&D v4.0 have already convinced me that I do not want to own the books or play the game as the current WoTC team is envisioning it.
But maybe the Powers That Be at Paizo will make their save and go with v3.5 or v.Paizo. Like my buddy from Virginia says, "Where there's life, there's hope."
|
|
I've said I'd switch of Paizo does, and I haven't changed my mind. Though ya know? I'd happily stay if they didn't.
This has been my position over the last month or so. And I think its still my position.
But it struck me today that on the budget I have, if I end up switching to 4.0, I'm going to have to put the Pathfinder subscription on hold for about 6 months, basically 1 AP in order to afford the rulebooks. (3x$40 =$120)
I wonder how many others will find themselves doing the same?
Well, I will hate cancelling Pathfinder, GameMastery Modules and (upcoming) Pathfinder Chronicles subscriptions if Paizo goes v4.0 -- but that is the way it will have to be.What scraps I've seen of D&D v4.0 have already convinced me that I do not want to own the books or play the game as the current WoTC team is envisioning it.
Exactly how I feel. In fact I suscribed to Pathfinder as a reaction to what WotC pulling back Dungeon and Dragon magazines. I thought it sucked of them and wanted to show Paizo my support in what was probably a crappy time for them.
I wish Paizo could break free from WotC and hope that they do so (and profit from it).