Please don't think ill of me. I love your abberant ooze's and seven deadly tentacled sins as much as the rest of you (except maybe R.Pett . . . I think the jury's still out on him . . . ), but from all the info i've seen punted around the pathfinder message boards the last few days there's something I want to find out.
Is this a world that I'll feel safe enough to bring my kids? Not that I have any yet, but once I do and when they're old enough to learn to game, will I be able to pull out Pathfinder from the get go, or will I have to stick with Forgotten Realms of Eberron . . .
Obviously I'm not asking for overly cute and cuddly campaign world. But I would like to know if there is a chance for adventures (or whole AP's) that aren't going to be so . . . "hair on the back of your neck stand straight up"-ish.
Hmm, not sure if I'm explaining this well . . .
Hey!...erm ok good point...
Please don't think ill of me. I love your abberant ooze's and seven deadly tentacled sins as much as the rest of you (except maybe R.Pett . . . I think the jury's still out on him . . . ), but from all the info i've seen punted around the pathfinder message boards the last few days there's something I want to find out.
Is this a world that I'll feel safe enough to bring my kids? Not that I have any yet, but once I do and when they're old enough to learn to game, will I be able to pull out Pathfinder from the get go, or will I have to stick with Forgotten Realms of Eberron . . .
Obviously I'm not asking for overly cute and cuddly campaign world. But I would like to know if there is a chance for adventures (or whole AP's) that aren't going to be so . . . "hair on the back of your neck stand straight up"-ish.
Hmm, not sure if I'm explaining this well . . .
Certainly! While dark adventures are a fun (and often under-served, in my opinion) niche, that's only a portion of what our world is going to be about. There'll still be all the traditional swashbucking, high adventure, and humor that you've come to expect from the game. While it may sound trite, there really WILL be something for everyone in our world - after all, we've all got different tastes here in the office, and our world is a very large place. (Varisia, for instance, is only one of a number of nations we have charted out... and that doesn't even address all the lands we've specifically left "off the map.")
So yes, never fear - if you decide that a given adventure is too dark for your group, or simply doesn't appeal to you, just stick it back on the shelf and grab the next one over. I'm confident that between Pathfinder and the GameMastery modules, you'll always be able to find something that strikes your fancy.
Putting in my vote for "Howardian sword-and-sorcery" here! "Rana Mor" was a staggeringly-awesome example of this.
-The Gneech
Creative Director
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We have done a lot of polls and market research and messageboard watching over the past half-decade, and as it turns out, gritty/horror type adventures regularly score in the top end; this genre is, I suspect, the most popular genre of D&D play. So it'll certianly be a strong theme in Pathfinder.
That said... all gloom, all the time is no fun. It's depressing if there's never light-hearted or happy stuff in adventures.
I'm hoping to strike a good balance between the two in Pathfinder, but it'll be a constantly evolving process, I suspect. One guided primarilly by the reactions I read here on our messageboards and elsewhere (particularly ENworld, since I hang out there a lot).
I did see a comment from Mr. Jacobs indicating that the maturity level (ie Book of Vile Dark-ish, since they can't specifically use that book) will be no worse at the worst than the Styes or other recent adventures found in dungeon. So... if you feel the current dungeons are appropriate than you shall be happy. If you feel they are too dark, then you will be unhappy.
Sean Mahoney
Putting in my vote for "Howardian sword-and-sorcery" here! "Rana Mor" was a staggeringly-awesome example of this.
Count on it. By the way, if you're into the old-skool sword-and-sorcery, I highly recommend checking out what's coming down the pipe over at Planet Stories.
Putting in my vote for "Howardian sword-and-sorcery" here! "Rana Mor" was a staggeringly-awesome example of this.Count on it. By the way, if you're into the old-skool sword-and-sorcery, I highly recommend checking out what's coming down the pipe over at Planet Stories.
There's certainly some very interesting stuff there! I'll keep my eye on it. :)
-TG
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...and as it turns out, gritty/horror type adventures regularly score in the top end; this genre is, I suspect, the most popular genre of D&D play...That said... all gloom, all the time is no fun. It's depressing if there's never light-hearted or happy stuff in adventures.
From a recent investigation of goings-on in Goatswood...
Keeper (me): Yes...uh...well, yes.
Investigator 1: No way, man!
Keeper: Ahhh...[sigh and quick exhalation through pursed lips, some indistinct mumbling]
Investigator 2: You are a heartless…sadistic…son-of-a-b@##+!
Investigator 3: I hate this [multiple expletives deleted] game!
Investigator 4: Am I really dead?
Keeper: Weeeelll…actually, you’re all dead.
Investigator 2: I want to go to Sasserine, now.
Investigator 1: Let’s send another team to Severn [area of Goatswood] next week.
Investigator 2: I want to go to Sasserine, now.
And, yes, we then had a light-hearted time in the Jungle...until Bryan (Player 2) was unexpectedly eaten by a giant pitcher plant...
We have done a lot of polls and market research and messageboard watching over the past half-decade, and as it turns out, gritty/horror type adventures regularly score in the top end; this genre is, I suspect, the most popular genre of D&D play. So it'll certianly be a strong theme in Pathfinder.
That said... all gloom, all the time is no fun. It's depressing if there's never light-hearted or happy stuff in adventures.
I'm hoping to strike a good balance between the two in Pathfinder, but it'll be a constantly evolving process, I suspect. One guided primarilly by the reactions I read here on our messageboards and elsewhere (particularly ENworld, since I hang out there a lot).
I see what you're saying and and just hope that those wanting gritty/horror aren't just in a highly vocal minority.
But, I know regardless of what you put out, I know that if it goes just a little bit too far for my tastes, I can always tone it down as a DM and still enjoy it. (one of the great things about this game in general is the ability to customize everything)
As to things taking into account a younger audience, just read the blog and see what is being done with goblins. They are very faery tale-ish, yet still mean and nasty. They are more in the style of things from "The Hobbit"(as opposed to "The Lord of the Rings" which is written in a decidely different style) than with any sort of dark horror fanstasy. Goblins, or anything else for that matter, can be tailored to suit the atmosphere you want to have for your game.
I prefer mean and nasty things with no clownish apsects to them at all(or very rarely), but I do see the point of it. The game world isn't being designed *just for me* after all...
There's nothing I love more that something evil with clownish aspects.... And how I do so love horror.
And occasionally there will be GameMastery Modules written by people who are not obsessed with or influenced by Lovecraft. So yeah, it'll happen. :)
You mean to say that all current game developers aren't influenced by Lovecraft?
And occasionally there will be GameMastery Modules written by people who are not obsessed with or influenced by Lovecraft. So yeah, it'll happen. :)
Ack, certainly not?! Such people exist? We must have words with those that have not yet been... "touched."
Bring on the dark themes....you can always censor them yourself if you want PG-13, but I'm up for NC-17. No X though...that's just weird. Thanks.
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You mean to say that all current game developers aren't influenced by Lovecraft?We most certainly are not!
Some game designers like fantasy firmly entrenched in the swords and the sorceries side of things. :P
And that's why THOSE game designers prefer Lovecraft's "Earth's Dreamlands" stories over his later mythos stories. Right, Mike?
And occasionally there will be GameMastery Modules written by people who are not obsessed with or influenced by Lovecraft. So yeah, it'll happen. :)You mean to say that all current game developers aren't influenced by Lovecraft?
I dream of the golden city of kudoth
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Creative Director
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And occasionally there will be GameMastery Modules written by people who are not obsessed with or influenced by Lovecraft. So yeah, it'll happen. :)You mean to say that all current game developers aren't influenced by Lovecraft?I dream of the golden city of kudothHave you seen the Yellow Sign?
Yup. Dungeon #134.
Who's this 'Lovecraft' guy? Wait, do you smell fish? Wha-hruuuhh...ahhhh!! The horror, the horror!! Arrghhhhh...mommy?
LOL!
You beat me! I was going to post the EXACT same thing almost! Awesome!
That said... all gloom, all the time is no fun.
I totally agree with Mr. Jacobs on this. As much as I love the gritty horror type of adventure, what makes it memorable is when it happens only on occasion (maybe once per campaign or adventure path). Use too much of it, and it becomes just like any other day.
Ultradan
And occasionally there will be GameMastery Modules written by people who are not obsessed with or influenced by Lovecraft. So yeah, it'll happen. :)You mean to say that all current game developers aren't influenced by Lovecraft?I dream of the golden city of kudothHave you seen the Yellow Sign?
I just reread that story the other day, and I am thinking of the line about the God like Gas beyond the stars. What I loved about Lovecraft was the elder Gods in reality where more or less just things that always existed more as a mortal creatures who sort of made man there little playthings and we the poor mortal children survive just cause we are left in the darkness at how the world really works. Soon as we start to stare out are windows we must start wondering what is staring back at us. I am tired and raving.
night
Ia! Gygax fthagn!
-TG
Please don't think ill of me. I love your abberant ooze's and seven deadly tentacled sins as much as the rest of you (except maybe R.Pett . . . I think the jury's still out on him . . . ), but from all the info i've seen punted around the pathfinder message boards the last few days there's something I want to find out.
Is this a world that I'll feel safe enough to bring my kids?....
Obviously I'm not asking for overly cute and cuddly campaign world.
Alas you shall now probably never see a flying war rhino....
Could not, would not join the dance....
::weep::
GGG
Some game designers like fantasy firmly entrenched in the swords and the sorceries side of things. :P
That would be my vote. Dungeon has done a LOT of Lovecraftian stuff recently, and more in Pathfinder would be overkill. Mythos is best served in small, still-twitching slices.
And with module names like "The Skinsaw Murders" I'm pretty sure it's not very family-friendly.
Kids and D&D: try Collectabeast the D20-ification of the "Gotta Catch 'em All" philosophy :)
Actually, that looks like fun. :)
-The Gneech, unapologetic Pokemon-liker
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I don't know for sure, but the average age of D&D player these days, I suspect, is in the upper 20s. Dungeon certainly aimed at a mature crowd. And the fact of the matter is, I think, that kids who are attracted to this really complex game are mature beyond their years; they don't WANT to be treated like kids or talked down to. They take pride in the fact that they're learning how to play a complex game. I know that's the way I was when I was learning the game back in 5th grade.
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Fantasy Flight puts out a d20 world called Grimm as part of its one-shot Horizons line (they also seem to have a non-d20 version). PCs are kids in an evil fairytale world. I've looked through it a couple of times and seems fun, but don't remember much about the rules. But that might be an interesting direction for someone playing with kids who wants to avoid the really dark stuff.
I might be shunned for saying this, but my players and I like more James Bond in our D&D. CoC was great because you got your dark, eldritch horror and mystery together in a single dose. Combining swashbuckling adveture with international espionage is something I've done quite a lot of in personal adventure designs due to player demand. Combining all three in a single AP would demand high art... on the level that only, say, Paizo could tackle.
Keep silly multi-syllable (FR-like) names out of it.
And let's outlaw all monster names that contain apostrophes, or are otherwise unpronounceable. Jack Vance tantalized us with the Pelgrane, the Erb, and the Leucomorph. All cool names, all pronouncable, and all mercifully free of extraneous punctuation marks!
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I might be shunned for saying this, but my players and I like more James Bond in our D&D. CoC was great because you got your dark, eldritch horror and mystery together in a single dose. Combining swashbuckling adveture with international espionage is something I've done quite a lot of in personal adventure designs due to player demand. Combining all three in a single AP would demand high art... on the level that only, say, Paizo could tackle.
_Shadows of Yog-Sothoth_! Never made it to the end, but it answers all your wants. Could Paizo outdo S. Peterson? But, of course...
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Keep it as fluff-lite as possible. I know some people like fluff, but that’s what the FR is for.
I have to admit that I'd vote for quite the contrary. It is the fluff that sets two given settings apart. And at least for me it is the time consuming part of world creation.
I like Greyhawk very much but I never went to play there simply for this reason. I began playing D&D in the Forgotten Realms and I was astonished by the wealth of material I could include in my campaigns without to have to create it myself. And it lasted way to long until I got a feel for the World of Greyhawk (basically until Erik Mona took the reigns of Dungeon-editorship)
And while I would not expect the World of Pathfinder to be quite as detailed from the beginning, I would at least hope that there is more than just geography and the standard kind of world description (generic pantheon, some generic organizations and so on). That's the things I can create myself fast enough.
I'd think that the fluff will mostly be found in the Pathfinder related articles, so each DM can chose what to use in its own campaign. So if you don't like it, you an simply ignore it.
Given what I've seen so far in the old APs (the Diamond Lake Backdrop rocks) and what I've read on these boards so far, I hope that the Pathfinder world will be a good mixture between generic Greyhawk and fluffy Faerun. So I hope it will be a great thing for both of us to play in.
The most important thing for me is that the world feels coherent, as far as history, politics and economics is concerned. In some of the old settings I wondered forever how two countries could exist some hundred years without even slightly to influence each other. That is something you won't find in our world so I hope that if some day, when we cross the borders of Varisia we won't feel as if we had fallen from the planet. But I'm quite confident that won't happen.
While I’m writing in this thread. I also want to request the following, if possible:
Let's have plenty of high-level NPCs (maybe not as many as FR, but at least as many as Greyhawk).*
Keep it as fluff-lite as possible. I know some people like fluff, but that’s what the FR is for.
Keep silly multi-syllable (FR-like) names out of it.
Try not to have a timeline with “official” canon such that you can’t change things later on.IMO, huge amounts of fluff, official timelines, and official canon ruin a setting.
I agree to a point. A game that doesn't allow for dramatic inclusion of the PCs is not really a game. It's a novel. Mystara I think is a decent example of the reverse. Here it is almost expected that at some point in your later adventuring career you will have your own little kingdom sim, with your own army and that you probably build it all from scratch out of a mostly untouched bit of land granted to you by a local ruler who initially, more times than not, is lots tougher than you. Sure there's history, and culture, but for most of the campiagn's published life that "official" history ends at the time same time the characters enter the world allowing the players and GM to plot their own course. It would be nice if Pathfinder followed suit rather than making the characters seem like Elminister's B-team.
Let's go make some history!
GGG
Contributor
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Keep silly multi-syllable (FR-like) names out of it.And let's outlaw all monster names that contain apostrophes, or are otherwise unpronounceable. Jack Vance tantalized us with the Pelgrane, the Erb, and the Leucomorph. All cool names, all pronouncable, and all mercifully free of extraneous punctuation marks!
Behold Xr'qtl-gyp!lxcv'rtypn^ax the Devastating, killer of kings, ruiner of cities, and destroyer of pronunciation! Quiver before him and call out his name thrice for salvation!
(In other words: I agree.)
Keep silly multi-syllable (FR-like) names out of it.And let's outlaw all monster names that contain apostrophes, or are otherwise unpronounceable. Jack Vance tantalized us with the Pelgrane, the Erb, and the Leucomorph. All cool names, all pronouncable, and all mercifully free of extraneous punctuation marks!
Yeah... If I want to fight Klingons, then I'll play Star Trek!
Ultradan
I wanted to point out for one of the posters here that there has been a pretty intense look at reimaging the fey. That's something that nearly all of us on the writing team wanted to see some changes in. So far, what's come aobut from our brainstorming has been a much more classic* and darker kind of fey. Nothing is set in stone yet, of course. But it does seem that this will be the kind of thing you can expect. If your players are like mine, they tend to not take fey too seriously. They're a little dangerous sometimes, but mainly cutesy nature creatures. Be prepared to shock and frighten your players with what's coming. >:)
*Think of the Celtic mythos without the polish and kid-friendliness.
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Keep silly multi-syllable (FR-like) names out of it.And let's outlaw all monster names that contain apostrophes, or are otherwise unpronounceable. Jack Vance tantalized us with the Pelgrane, the Erb, and the Leucomorph. All cool names, all pronouncable, and all mercifully free of extraneous punctuation marks!
For the most part I agree. I hate the slapdash use of apostrophes that are so commonly used. Especially when they could be used in a logical and consistent manner to differentiate two vowels meant to be pronounced separately from a diphthong that uses the same letter combination, thus alleviating confusion on the reader's part as to the pronunciation. For instance, "saichim" would be pronounced "sigh-cheem," whereas "sa'ichim" would be pronounce saw-ee-cheem."
Again, it could also differentiate between two consonants (say, "s" and "h") from a third ("sh") that uses the same combination of letters. Thus, "Lors'ha" would be pronounced "lors-hah" rather than "lor-shah."
Actually, in combination with the consistent use of diacritical marks, this helps to maintain a bit of consistency in how words are spelled an pronounced, allowing a reader to understand how a word is pronounced without any confusion.
Just some food for thought.
IMO, huge amounts of fluff, official timelines, and official canon ruin a setting. What was great about the Birthright and Greyhawk settings was that there was just enough info for people to create or change whatever they liked. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that when TSR listened to the overly vocal minority who demanded much more fluff, and started putting out fluff-heavy books in the mid-‘90s that the game’s popularity declined. (Damn, I hope this paragraph doesn’t start a flame war!)
No flame-throwin' on my part, but I really disagree with not including official canon. To me, it is the official canon that makes D&D "D&D", not "Generic Fantasy Role Playing System". I want things like the Age Before Ages, the Blood War, the rise and fall and rise again of Orcus, etc. A timeline is great, too, for working out histories of magic items, etc.
I'm sure Erik, James, et al will design it right though!
That we can most certainly agree on. :)