For there is strength in numbers. Unite against WotC! It may not have occured to them that by doing this they would anger many of those that read and treasure these magazines but they have. I have read many people's posts on several other thread discussing this and have found a great deal of anger directed at WotC. I say that we boycott WotC! I won't buy anything of theirs from a site or store that would give them profit (places like Ebay are okay). I have never actually held a subscription to either magazine for money reasons but I have always read issues and picked them up when I could find them cheap and I love them. I am going to send furious emails to WotC telling them where they can stick their 'online content' and will spread the word. If anyone else agrees with me email WotC, post on other sites frequented by D&D players and let them know, encourage them to rebel!
I don't want 'online content'! I want a real magazine! I want a magazine published by the talented people at Paizo! Not some online crap. I want to have a magazine that I can take with me when I go somewhere! GIVE PAIZO THEIR LISCENSE BACK!!!!! Whos with me!?!!?!
I am. Bring us our magazines back!
Honestly, it would surprise me if the community at large doesn't just tell them to stick it and instead publishes an open source version of Dragon (say, called: Draggin'), much as they've done with the Dark Sun setting.
GIVE PAIZO THEIR LISCENSE BACK!!!!! Whos with me!?!!?!
I AM WITH YOU !!
I will boycott all WotC products.
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This blows. I've been getting Dragon at the newsstand and was just about to renew my subscription, too.
WOTC has a cool website but it's run all severe ADD style (believe me, I know). I mean, features appear and disappear and then pop up months later for a bit then go again, people get bored of features they once put a lot of time in (cough cough Previews)...
It just won't be the same at all. Boo to WOTC. I've put up with an increasingly shoddier product since Tome of Magic(ish), lack of errata, truncated books... but this is REALLY making me mad.
Does anyone know how I can email WotC? Their 'Contact Us' page is distictly unhelpful unless you want to see the Frequently Asked Questions or call them. Does anyone know their customer service (an ironic phrase) department's email address?
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GIVE PAIZO THEIR LISCENSE BACK!!!!! Whos with me!?!!?!I AM WITH YOU !!
I will boycott all WotC products.
F*#! yeah! I actually created an WotC messageboard profile just to say that I would never ppurchase anything from them again. I'm with anyone who's against Wizards of the Cost. (Yes, I meant to spell it that way.)
I wield the English language like a broadsword, and I'm about to send an eloquently crafted, razor-edged objection through Wizards' collective skull.
“Cry 'Havoc,’ and let slip the dogs of war.”
I'm as angry as anyone else here, but to play the devil's advocate for a second...
with Paizo now in full "Pathfinder" gear (design, advertising, writing, etc.), is bringing back Dragon and Dungeon even viable anymore? I imagine they have known about the license denial for a short while and are already deep in implementing their post-WoTC plans already
I totally support a boycott but I'm not sure getting the license back is even viable or would be even the right choice anymore...
For there is strength in numbers. Unite against WotC! It may not have occured to them that by doing this they would anger many of those that read and treasure these magazines but they have. I have read many people's posts on several other thread discussing this and have found a great deal of anger directed at WotC. I say that we boycott WotC! I won't buy anything of theirs from a site or store that would give them profit (places like Ebay are okay). I have never actually held a subscription to either magazine for money reasons but I have always read issues and picked them up when I could find them cheap and I love them. I am going to send furious emails to WotC telling them where they can stick their 'online content' and will spread the word. If anyone else agrees with me email WotC, post on other sites frequented by D&D players and let them know, encourage them to rebel!
I don't want 'online content'! I want a real magazine! I want a magazine published by the talented people at Paizo! Not some online crap. I want to have a magazine that I can take with me when I go somewhere! GIVE PAIZO THEIR LISCENSE BACK!!!!! Whos with me!?!!?!
I stand with all of you in this BUT how do we organize our boycott so that its effective? Its one thing for all of us here to say we are going to boycott and protest but we are, in effect, a very small community when compared to the entire Internet. Lets talk about how to make this an official boycott or protest, not just a group of gamers being pissed off.
How about a virus attack on the WoTC website? That could be the shot heard around the world.
How about a virus attack on the WoTC website? That could be the shot heard around the world.
I like the spirit of the idea but I don't think criminal acts would help anything
That's been done before, and it's illegal.How about a virus attack on the WoTC website? That could be the shot heard around the world.
Oh. Well, there goes my fun.
So how about something legal AND effective? Not sure if that's an oxymoron or not when dealing with Corporations but...WWTDD? (What Would Tyler Durden Do)
How about a virus attack on the WoTC website? That could be the shot heard around the world.I like the spirit of the idea but I don't think criminal acts would help anything
Breaking the law probably isn't going to get your message out there like you want it to. Logical, adult strategies are probably a better path.
If we protest in the streets for some TV time WotC will plant a few people wearing latex troll costumes in our throng, just to marginalize us and make us look like freakish cultists, not regular folk who have dedicated decades to a safe and creative pasttime.
If we see a costume person we must make them dissappear.
I don't think Paizo will ever get the license back for Dungeon or Dragon. Even if the opportunity was offered, they've been gearing towards their new endeavors for a long time now. I highly doubt they could gear shift again if they wanted to.
Breaking the law probably isn't going to get your message out there like you want it to. Logical, adult strategies are probably a better path.How about a virus attack on the WoTC website? That could be the shot heard around the world.I like the spirit of the idea but I don't think criminal acts would help anything
I agree that this is a situation that requires calm reactions...but don't forget that breaking the law is EXACTLY how our country threw off British rule, ended segregation, won the right for women and minorities to vote, and helped develop our current - albeit faltering - institution of social justice.
I'm as angry as anyone else here, but to play the devil's advocate for a second...
with Paizo now in full "Pathfinder" gear (design, advertising, writing, etc.), is bringing back Dragon and Dungeon even viable anymore? I imagine they have known about the license denial for a short while and are already deep in implementing their post-WoTC plans already
I totally support a boycott but I'm not sure getting the license back is even viable or would be even the right choice anymore...
I don't know if Dragon or Dungeon stand a ghost of a chance of ever returning, but so help me, I'll not sit idly by without raising my voice against Wizards' callous disregard for the players! If they're going to do this to us, then they should have to wallow through letter after letter and email after email espousing disgust for their choice. May they choke on our discontent.
Yes, but a virus makes the fans who have been damaged look like the victimizers and not the victims. It's not a sound strategy for achieving the end result we want, whatever that is exactly--guess we should hammer that one out. A computer virus will not cause an executive decision to change. Has it ever?
I've been interviewed many times by the TV news and in my opinion, a hundred thousand people in the streets doesn't mean anything unless you can give a slick cogent soundbyte within ten seconds of being asked. It's the interviewed people they choose to air who define the gathering.
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I agree that this is a situation that requires calm reactions...but don't forget that breaking the law is EXACTLY how our country threw off British rule, ended segregation, won the right for women and minorities to vote, and helped develop our current - albeit faltering - institution of social justice.Breaking the law probably isn't going to get your message out there like you want it to. Logical, adult strategies are probably a better path.How about a virus attack on the WoTC website? That could be the shot heard around the world.I like the spirit of the idea but I don't think criminal acts would help anything
Don't go breaking the law. It won't help, and it's lame.
Don't go breaking the law. It won't help, and it's lame.I agree that this is a situation that requires calm reactions...but don't forget that breaking the law is EXACTLY how our country threw off British rule, ended segregation, won the right for women and minorities to vote, and helped develop our current - albeit faltering - institution of social justice.Breaking the law probably isn't going to get your message out there like you want it to. Logical, adult strategies are probably a better path.How about a virus attack on the WoTC website? That could be the shot heard around the world.I like the spirit of the idea but I don't think criminal acts would help anything
Okay. So what official move do you all suggest? What's our point? I mean, we have already said that Paizo probably knew about the change and that they probably wouldn't want the license back anyways so is there even a real point to complaining anymore?
It serves a purpose.
1. Dragon and Dungeon, though lessened by the loss, could be pressured to stay in print, not DL.
2. A corporation will have felt the mighty hand of the fans, and will realize that it should fear us should it ever pull such a bumbling move in the future. You don't malnourish a thriving game scene for a buck. It can all go away so quickly... we can demonstrate that to them rather easily. Why not a boycott? We could give them four terrible months of drought and then, if so inclined, still buy all that stuff a few months later when they come to their senses. Once printed, it isn't going anywhere.
While I'll not jump on the "Boycott WotC Stuff" bandwagon I'll definitely not be joining any sort of electronic-based subscription service they offer. I want to read a real magazine, sit in a comfy chair flipping the pages back and forth, catalog it amongst it's kin on the shelf, photocopy the interesting stuff for campaign use. I don't want to sit hunched in my desk chair gazing blearily at PDFs or whatever it is they have to offer. I said as much when WotC had that survey a while back: I'm not interested in purchasing on-line only content.
I'm truly saddened that Dragon & Dungeon are going away. From my first issue (#129, January 1988, though I'd read a few earlier ones) I knew that Dragon was exactly what I needed to pad out the scant amount of gaming material I could get my hands on at the time (I was living on Kauai, HI, which had very little by way of RPG stuff in the couple of bookstores we had on the island.) And since only one hobby/kite store carried modules (and dice, thankfully) Dungeon was the perfect occasional buy for ready-made adventuring. They carried me through from the 1st Edition to the shiny and new 2nd Edition (after which I took an unexpected gaming break that would last until 3rd Edition came out) and into the truly "advanced" 3rd Edition. Even when I wasn't gaming (and subsequently not picking up the magazines) I'd flip through Dragon at the newsstand to see what was going on in the big, wide world of D&D.
I'm glad, in a sense, that we've got a few more months with Dragon & Dungeon. Time to spend with old friends enjoying the life they breathe into our gaming world. I know I'll be wearing a black armband for them in August.
- Chris Shadowens
A boycott that requires a clear condition be met is different than a perpetual boycott. If we starved them, the way they're starving us, we really would be calling shots. Companies are for profit. When an obstacle arises that denies profit, the company must deal with the obstacle, not fail to answer their phones... which is what they're doing today.
It's like an invisibility spell... we just have to wait out the duration and tackle this rogue.
I don't think Paizo will ever get the license back for Dungeon or Dragon. Even if the opportunity was offered, they've been gearing towards their new endeavors for a long time now. I highly doubt they could gear shift again if they wanted to.
You are probably right but I will not sit idly while they destroy something that I love. I may not be able to change their decision but we can make them pay. As for organization we need to spread the word of the boycott. We need to go to other sites devoted to RPGers and write articles and start threads on other message boards. We need to email everyone in our address books who games and get them to boycott WotC. We also need to send angry emails to WotC to express the degree to which we are pissed off at them.
Protest 101...there's quite a few options of ascending effectiveness and cost/effort open to you (and are legal):
* Whine on a messageboard (or many messageboards)
* Send an e-mail to WotC's customer service org
* Send an e-mail to WotC execs
* Organize an e-mail campaign to either of the above.
* Write a physical letter to either of the above.
* Organize a letter writing campaign to either of the above.
* Go to WotC headquarters and protest.
* Organize a protest at WotC headquarters.
If you get a handful of people here to go to their FLGS and organize either an e-mail or letter campaign (letter campaigns are generally more effective), then back it up with action (boycott or whatever), then you have something. Otherwise, you're whining to the choir.
Case in point, (if you're worried about Corporate America™ not listening to you), I work at a major computer manufacturer that switched whole hog over to Vista when it came out. You couldn't purchase a consumer machine with Windows XP after Vista launched. Management opened up the question on a public forum and got 10K responses. As a result, we're now offering XP again on our consumer systems.
Corporations care about one thing (ultimately): Money. You are their money. If you get enough people to say they will no longer pass over their money for product due to some product decision (and you act on it for some amount of time that gets their attention), then you'll get a response...guaranteed. If you can't do that, then you'll get no response. Guaranteed.
Enraged geeks on the warpath. God, I love this hobby. :)
Protest 101...there's quite a few options of ascending effectiveness and cost/effort open to you (and are legal)
You could also contact your local news organization and tell them that if RPG/computer geeks don't get their regular magazines back they'll press the OFF button on the Internet.
"I swear, officer, I'll do it!!!"
A boycott that requires a clear condition be met is different than a perpetual boycott. If we starved them, the way they're starving us, we really would be calling shots. Companies are for profit. When an obstacle arises that denies profit, the company must deal with the obstacle, not fail to answer their phones... which is what they're doing today.
It's like an invisibility spell... we just have to wait out the duration and tackle this rogue.
I'm all for it. But how do we reach all of the other gamers out there?
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WotC is performing a blanket return of emails through there website. I received mine only minutes after sending a seathing email. But I found this address on the Hasbro site and have sent one to them. Go above WotC's heads with a couple of hundred emails and see what happens.
hasbrogamespr@hasbro.com
This is the 21st century. Crowds have power. Start a petition with email addresses. Tell your game store that you are not going to buy WotC product so they can adjust their ordering. email WotC (if you can find an email address for them.)
If you are resident in the U.S.A, there is one very nasty and completely legal thing to do.
Buy a share in Hasbro. Each person on the petition that can, buy a share of Hasbro. Then go en-masse to the next shareholder meeting and ask your questions there. You are usually entitled to a say at a shareholder meeting.
Look up some of the protest tactics used by the Anti fur lobby, the Greenpeace demonstrations, Earth First and other organs of civil change.
Use word of mouth and six degrees of seperation.
I'm all for it. But how do we reach all of the other gamers out there?A boycott that requires a clear condition be met is different than a perpetual boycott. If we starved them, the way they're starving us, we really would be calling shots. Companies are for profit. When an obstacle arises that denies profit, the company must deal with the obstacle, not fail to answer their phones... which is what they're doing today.
It's like an invisibility spell... we just have to wait out the duration and tackle this rogue.
Well, it's easy to grumble en masse, but much harder to organize. I suppose we'd need a new thread dedicated to a specific campaign or event of protest, stating clearly what it is we want and what our intentions are in securing that end.
After that we assemble a list of participants and work out all the details, and there will be many.
Many offended gamers might have been placated if Wizards was at least dealing with the fallout... but they're not... and that's going to fuel the flame. Yet another failing strategy.
CALL YOUR LOCAL BOOK STORES and GAME STORES !
We need to get knowledge of the boycott into the Supplier/Distributor channels.
Please take a moment to call your nearest:
- Barnes & Nobles ( http://storelocator.barnesandnoble.com/find_a_store.do )
- Borders Books ( http://www.bordersstores.com/locator/locator.jsp )
- Your local GAME STORES.
Vote with your checkbook !
Thank you, and spread the word on the chat boards.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think the biggest hurdle this campaign faces is overcoming the hardcore fan bias. Face it, about a week ago we had people talking about boycotting New Line Cinemas because Peter Jackson wouldn't be directing the Hobbit. We, as a community, face a significant credibility gap. We have thrown hissy fits over Jar Jar Binks, the lack of Tom Bombadil, and numerous other petty, irrelevant, and stupid issues. And now, here we are, with something worthy of getting worked up about, living down all the bullshit boycotts to come before.
So, to the extent anyone boycotts, make sure to keep it simple, keep it unemotional, and for god's sake, keep it non-geeky (to the extent the protest of the loss of a magazine focused on Dungeons and Dragons can be non-geeky). Don't give people the opportunity to shrug you off as just another overreacting geek getting upset about the color of Mace Windu's lightsaber.
This is reaaaaaaaaaaally serious for me, though. I'm in for a penny, in for a pound.
I think the biggest hurdle this campaign faces is overcoming the hardcore fan bias. Face it, about a week ago we had people talking about boycotting New Line Cinemas because Peter Jackson wouldn't be directing the Hobbit. We, as a community, face a significant credibility gap. We have thrown hissy fits over Jar Jar Binks, the lack of Tom Bombadil, and numerous other petty, irrelevant, and stupid issues. And now, here we are, with something worthy of getting worked up about, living down all the bulls@!! boycotts to come before.
So, to the extent anyone boycotts, make sure to keep it simple, keep it unemotional, and for god's sake, keep it non-geeky (to the extent the protest of the loss of a magazine focused on Dungeons and Dragons can be non-geeky). Don't give people the opportunity to shrug you off as just another overreacting geek getting upset about the color of Mace Windu's lightsaber.
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How would you proceed? I think your particular knowledge would help out significantly.
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If I said it, it's as good as done.
No more buying WOTC for me until WOTC gives Paizo back the license for Dungeon and Dragon magazine.
If Paizo says to hell with it, fine. No more hard feelings.
I am just sick and tired of being jacked around arbitrarily, and I can't give WOTC my money. There's somebody out there who WON'T jerk me around, who wants to write stuff; I'll save my money to give to them.
Again, I don't believe a boycott will do any good whatsoever. BUT, I have to voice my displeasure, and I can't give them my money any more without my blood pressure raising, and feeling like I have to vomit. So, I say, to hell with them.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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How would you proceed? I think your particular knowledge would help out significantly.
Well, first off, I'm not sure I'm willing to proceed. I'm pretty pissed off at WotC. This was really an anti-competitive action, and I really have difficulty justifying such conduct.
Assuming I was willing to get behind the boycott, there's a significant problem on the WotC side of the equation. WotC is waiting us out, they're going to let us rail and post nasty things, posture about how evil they are, sign internet petitions, and, when time has passed and the worst of the storm has subsided, they will come out with their new vision of Dragon/Dungeon. And, as much as I'm angry at them now, they have a track record of similar strength to that of Paizo, and I fully expect that what they put out will be of high quality. I can't imagine that a web based set of content will be as good as print, but I think that they are working towards creating a D&D portal that is the equivalent of their Magic portal. Their current D&D site blows, and they must realize that.
In addition, WotC has a strong incentive not to listen to us. If they responded every time the fans got up in arms, we wouldn't have a 3rd edition of the game. Given that they are coming out with a 4e, if they were to backslide on this issue due to fan pressure, imagine what will be brought to bear after 4e comes out. The consumers of Dungeon and Dragon are a small portion of their audience. The most we can do will pale in comparison to the shitstorm they will face when 4e comes out.
So, I guess at the end of the day, I don't have a good answer. A boycott is the best bet, writing physical letters might help. Posting outrage and sending emails is worthless. Buying shares of Hasbro is highly unlikely to work. Not unless there is a large contingent of Paizo readers willing to travel to Rhode Island to attend their stockholder meeting. A stockholder proposal requires a decent chunk of stock and is very easy for a corporate lawyer to take off the a proxy.
Do what you think is right, but understand that this is a battle that will not be won in the short term, if it can be won at all. I don't know how the publishing world works, but, if a year from now, Dragon and Dungeon were to reappear, I think all the extra costs mentioned by Erik et al would need to be paid. Thus, for the same reason that a new OGL Dragon/Dungeon is not a feasible option, a relaunced Dragon/Dungeon may very well not be a feasible option.
I don't think this battle can be won. I think all that can be done is damage to the hobby. I'm sorry, I don't want that to be true, but I believe it is.
If we boycott, it has to be an official boycott or it won't effective in delivering a clear message.
I'm not sure how effective a boycott would be too...only because WoTC is just one head of the beast of the monster known as Hasbro...and even if you could get 10% of the D&D consumers to boycott (that is the role players, not the novel readers or the miniature collectors, cause they have no reason to boycott) how does that actually hurt the mega-company that owns Magic, Pokemon, Barbie, Transformers, etc. (http://www.hasbro.com/default.cfm?page=brands) ...all you may be doing would be hurting D&D RPG sales and damaging your own beloved hobby
The only real “revenge” (per say) would be to make Paizo/Pathfinder (and there partnered OL d20 companies) a huge success, and maybe even a competitor to WoTC in the future...
But I totally agree with personal boycotts, save your $$$, don’t spend in on W0TC products and sample the rest of the d20 universe and find the “diamond in the rough” that are out there to enrich your game
So the big question is... Will they wrap up the Downer storyline by Issue #150?
I don't think this battle can be won. I think all that can be done is damage to the hobby. I'm sorry, I don't want that to be true, but I believe it is.
I disagree that this will damage the hobby (change Dungeon/Dragon, boycott, etc). I think more open source publishers in the arena make the hobby stronger, especially those like Necromancer, Goodman Games, and Paizo, that want to stay as close to core game as possible and bring their considerable creativity and high quality to bear.
To tell the truth, I haven't been very happy with the core game for a couple of years. I feel like it's grown into a monstrosity of character options and drifted quite far afield from five people sitting down for a night of gaming. I thought Eberron started off in that mold, but it's starting to follow the core at this point.
I was never a huge Dragon fan, though there were a few articles I followed, but Dungeon was the only source for high quality D&D™ adventures. I haven't seen a solid adventure out of Wizards for quite a while (though I am enjoying Ravenloft at the moment). And even if I never used an entire adventure unmodified, or picked and chose from various issues, Dungeon magazine was the best it's ever been in the last few years.
For me, it's a last straw kinda thing. I'll keep looking at Eberron stuff and buying what appeals, but I'm done with the rest of Wizards monstrosity. I'm on for Pathfinder...we'll see if Paizo can keep their momentum.
I truly believe that Erik, Robert, their crew, and freelancers resurrected a dying institution. Before Paizo, the d20 Modern/minigames kept me buying, but I left Dungeon for good for a while until...BANG! It was very very good again.
Sad to see it go.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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There is one other avenue to consider and I think that Goodman Games "dungeon crawl classics" series and the new "pathfinder" series are on to. WOTC is going to kill the OGL license with 4.0. I'm betting WOTC will be the only ones printing any type of 4.0 material and the reason is simple, the quality and content of their products is subpar and others can do it better and are making money. OGL will still be available and much in the same way Kenzer produces Hackmaster loosely based on 1st edition, Paizo, Goodman, et. al. will continue to produce 3.5 content related products.
WotC can't kill the OGL, it is irrevocable.
I disagree that this will damage the hobby (change Dungeon/Dragon, boycott, etc). I think more open source publishers in the arena make the hobby stronger, especially those like Necromancer, Goodman Games, and Paizo, that want to stay as close to core game as possible and bring their considerable creativity and high quality to bear.
To tell the truth, I haven't been very happy with the core game for a couple of years. I feel like it's grown into a monstrosity of character options and drifted quite far afield from five people sitting down for a night of gaming. I thought Eberron started off in that mold, but it's starting to follow the core at this point.
x2
I'm done with Wizards products, having gone over to Green Ronin. Others have found gaming goodness in other fine publishers of OGL materials, including published OGL adventures.
I, too, soured on Wizards' game... I was willing to give them another shot with Eberron, and then got turned off after the Five Nations book.
It's worth the time to look at other people's take on the OGL standard... be it Green Ronin's "True20", Monte Cook's "Iron Heroes", or whatever. Hopefully, others on this board will actually put their money where their mouths are, and look at other variants of OGL/d20 because there are some great things out there.
For Paizo, making something exactly like Wizards' game to the exclusion of all else... that would be a mistake. "Dungeon" is dead... hopefully "Pathfinder" will be better & not so tied to its Wizards root.
If you wake up & decide that you're done with Wizards, then you won't really miss reading "Dragon" as it has become. The gaming world is bigger than Wizards & its products.
If you're really angry, try something new. There's some awesome stuff out there that is closer to the game that you want, not just what Wizards has made of the game that you used to love.
WotC can't kill the OGL, it is irrevocable.
Legally (and I have no education about law and copyrights and such) I imagine you are right...but the OGL can be "phased" out by an excellent 4.0 product (or maybe not so excellent, with the right marketing)...like VHS vs Beta...if WoTC "closes" the license to 4.0 then the OGL could become obsolete...right?
I'm new to these boards so be nice :)
Why am I here, well now that WOTC offically sucks @#$ I couldn't stand it over there, it smells.
Today my FLGS got in a shipment of the Unhallowed minis in and I told him sorry I'm not buying WOTC products, he's not happy with that.
Despite the danger to the hobby posed by boycott that Sebastian has explained, they'll notice when gaming shops cancel orders. I hope it ruins their jacuzzi party.
As I said on another site, "What a dreary sunny day."
::Sigh::