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Dragon and Dungeon Transition Discussion

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Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Only have a second for a quick post, but you both make good points. As for the timing, I have two scenarios.

Scenario 1: These licensing agreements tend to be for multi-year periods. The minimum period that would be acceptable to Paizo (say, 18 months) would overlap with the launch of 4e. WotC planned to take the license back at that time anyway, and because they couldn't agree to a term that wouldn't include the 4e launch, they didn't relicense.

Scenario 2: This is wild speculation, but Paizo might have received an offer to continue the license for a shorter period of time, up until the launch of 4e. It's entirely possible that Paizo realized they would be f#~*ed if they agreed to such a license. At the end of the period, they'd still lose the right to publish Dragon/Dungeon and they'd be competing with 4e for any new products they might want to offer.

Actually, given the way that WotC has handled this and the way Paizo has handled this, I strongly suspect the later, that it was a Paizo decision to use the runway prior to the launch of 4e to build their own product line independent of Dragon/Dungeon. I'm not saying WotC wasn't planning on pulling the license eventually anyway, but it's very likely they would have rather waited until just before 4e to do it.

I guess one other scenario is that there were certain things WotC could not do as a result of the license that they needed to do in order to be ready for the 4e launch. I find that unlikely.

Edit: One more thing. I agree with a lot of what Monte says re: 4e, but I'm not sure about his conclusion (i.e., 4e must be so much better than 3e such that no intermediate game arises). 3.5 is the counterexample. 3.5 was a very minor upgrade, and yet it completely destroyed 3.0. WotC is amazing at its ability to leak little bits to create demand. They do it all the time with new Magic sets, and I have no doubt they can and will do it with 4e. I think by the time 4e is officially released, the vast majority of gamers will be begging for it due to WotC's publicity blitz leading up to that time.


Vic Wertz wrote:
Tensor wrote:
I just went and spoke to my local game-store-guy ...
Everything you report is completely incorrect. ...

Good !! That guy made me paranoid, now I know he is an ___ face.

.


Lich-Loved wrote:

I do not plan on buying much or any WotC/Hasboro products in the foreseeable future, but it isn't because I want to punish them for their decision to yank the licenses from Paizo, it is because they are no longer producing products or content that appeals to me. For WotC to win me over, Paizo has to fail to deliver and WotC/Hasboro has to radically improve their consumable content and hardbook quality.

I agree with you 100% here. According to the Paizo guys and gals here on these boards, Wizards was really good about ending the license-- they extended it 4 issuses so the current AP could conclude, etc.

They're not evil, and not even necessarily making a bad decision-- they're just badly undercommunicating with their customer base at the moment.

If their online venture turns out well, more power to them. If it bombs . . . we'll all point and laugh, just like at D&D Online.

Liberty's Edge

Freehold DM wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
WOTC stuff bought today: ZERO.
^5

I've been gaming since basic, I love both Dragon and Dungeon magazines; however, I'm afraid that I must boycott. Something that I really hate to do, because I really try to support Dungeons and Dragons (almost fanatically, I LOVE THIS GAME, I sacrifice certain necesities just to make time to play, and have introduced alot of people to the game). $20 plus is just too pricey for what are my favorite magazines. Sorry. Change is good, but it just doesn't feel the same. I feel ripped-off. There have definitely been VERY GOOD changes, especially from the player's side of the game, and there have been a lot of EXCELLENT stories and campaigns; but the games just don't have that 1st and 2nd edition feel over all. Of course there are exceptions like City of the Spider Queen, and both the Savage land and Shackled City campain arcs that really kick. But, again, things just don't feel the same. I'm really sorry. I've been buying both Dragon and Dungeon magazines since about 2000 (I think I have all but two). I just want to say that, I hope Paizo's decision doesn't hurt my game. I will continue to buy the figures, rule books, Dungeon Tile, and other accessories. I just can't buy the magazine at that price.

On a brighter side, perhaps a good thing can come out of this, because now maybe other games may open sites that include games, stories, art, campains, and everything else that comes along with gaming. Perhaps a free site where gamers can exchange stories and other aspects of Dungeons & Dragons. And perhaps, if this is the case; competition will arise, creativity and ideas will be born, and new writers will become noticed. So maybe this isn't a bad idea after all.

I just hate the idea that my favorite magazines are gone. I don't my game to suffer.

Finally, a question. Why can't Dragon magazine, Dungeon magazine, and Pathfinder coexist? Is there not enough writers and artist out there? I myself plan to write as soon as I finish my degree. Combine both Dragon and Dungeon magazines?

Long Live Dragon and Dungeon magazines! And the very best of wishes and success to Pathfinder magazine! (I hope you don't ever get into the same position as your predecessors.)


Sebastian wrote:


Actually, given the way that WotC has handled this and the way Paizo has handled this, I strongly suspect the later, that it was a Paizo decision to use the runway prior to the launch of 4e to build their own product line independent of Dragon/Dungeon.

Paizo won initiative!

Sovereign Court

I am disappointed with WoTC and their tardy dealings with their fan base and customers. I have protested the WoTC action by support Paizo and placing a subscription for the Pathfinder product. I budget my RPG spend and this money has been spent mostly on WotC product. I am generally not recalcitrant or vocal when these types of issues occur in the hobby industry. Now is the time to rise and be counted in a positive manner.

In my part of the world I have seen the demise of the FLGS. The industry needs to create the desire for the products and ensure quality, to keep the loyalty of the current fans or things will go awry. If Dungeon and Dragon become web based I think the FLGS that are left will struggle even more and possibly drop P&P RPG’s altogether in place of stronger lines, like cards, plastic crack etc. The magazines were, as many have said, a great vehicle to build expectation on current and new product releases.
Sadly my local FLGS is no more, I am relying more and more on the net to purchase product. I will miss the days when I could look at previews in a coffee shop and then order it at my FLGS.

It will be interesting times for P&P RPG’s and interesting to see the direction WoTC take on product and delivery in the future. It is hard for me to judge if the electronic push is right and if the market demands this type of direction. The perfect medium for me is paper copy with PDF support. Why, because it works.

Cheers

DDM

Liberty's Edge

I'm not going to shouting boycott, because that would suggest that I actually purchased WoTC products before. I have the core books, Etools (and doesn't this whole thing sound a lot like the Etools liscence getting taken from the Codemonkeys?) and my Dragon and Dungeon magazines. I really have no plans to buy anything more, and that isn't changing anytime soon. And I'm sure as hell not going to be laying out cash for an online version of a magazine. I have no use for a magazine I can't put on my shelf along with almost every other one of them that were ever published. Sorry, if I can't bring it along to a game session, it's useless to me.

Online resources are great, really. And I'm a big fan of the e-book concept as a whole. I buy a lot of sci-fi in ebook form from another publisher to read on my PDA. But nothing will ever replace flipping through the hardcopy. So, sure, I'll go along with a boycott, in the sense that I won't be following the magazines back to WoTC in the current form.

Liberty's Edge

Vic Wertz wrote:


Finally, on another note, I'd like you all to consider the entire industry when you talk about boycotting someone. I don't know if an organized boycott could substantially hurt Wizards or not—I doubt it. But I do know that it can hurt retailers, and distributors; they work on slim margins as they are. A boycott isn't just bad for one company—it's bad for the whole industry.

If you want to *help* our industry, continue to reward the system by purchasing the products that interest you. When those products succeed, they'll be followed by more products like them, and that's all good for everybody.

Hear, hear!!


My hate was feeling lonely tonight.

Total amount spent on WotC products since the boycott, $0.00.

:-)


Tensor wrote:


My hate was feeling lonely tonight.

Total amount spent on WotC products since the boycott, $0.00.

:-)

^5

The Exchange

The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:

I don't care. BOYCOTT! BOYCOTT! BOYCOTT!

Oh god its 1773 all over again...Just make sure you throw your own WOTC product in the water and not someone elses. Tea Party my butt! you is all scroty little brigands.


Oath wrote:


No one Boycotted Pontiac for stopping production on the Trans Am...

What!?!! You didn't?


The Jade wrote:
The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:
The Jade wrote:

Actually, I bought every WotC D&D product (save minis) that's come out in the last year few years save two Eberron books that I just forgot to get.

f~#* that! I download stuff off of LimeWire!
I have a strong anti-piracy stance, Mr. Shiny. Can't steal from artists.
The Jade wrote:
The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:
The Jade wrote:

Actually, I bought every WotC D&D product (save minis) that's come out in the last year few years save two Eberron books that I just forgot to get.

f~#* that! I download stuff off of LimeWire!
I have a strong anti-piracy stance, Mr. Shiny. Can't steal from artists.

Ok. You listen to free-to-air radio? I'm in a band - if my stuff was getting smashed on LW i'd be stoked as it's publicity.

Anyhoo, I'm in with the boycott. Someone said 1% of the market. Like to see the market survey which supports that stat....No political movements would endure with that thinking - i.e. you wouldn't have either socialism OR democracy (or a nice blend of both).

I like HARDCOPY and I liked Dragon and Dungeon Mags(even got a letter published in that one :) )


Total amount spent on WotC products since the boycott, $0.00.

Two years and rolling!

:-)


Tensor wrote:

Total amount spent on WotC products since the boycott, $0.00.

Two years and rolling!

:-)

^5.

Two years and rolling.

Dark Archive

Tensor wrote:

Total amount spent on WotC products since the boycott, $0.00.

Two years and rolling!

:-)

Good for you!!

Of course I havent bought anything since the Fiendish Codex II, but thats cuz I have no desire to play 4e and the other 3.5e books they had around that time kinda sucked..

The Exchange

DmRrostarr wrote:
Tensor wrote:

Total amount spent on WotC products since the boycott, $0.00.

Two years and rolling!

:-)

Good for you!!

Of course I havent bought anything since the Fiendish Codex II, but thats cuz I have no desire to play 4e and the other 3.5e books they had around that time kinda sucked..

I bought the 4e 3 book base set, only so I could read it and PROVE to myself beyond any doubt that I really didn't like it. We haven't played it and don't plan to.

Other than that, I've bought WOTC stuff since 4e came out, but only used on eBay. I don't have a local game store and it's a lot cheaper that way, and doesn't support HasBLOW, at least not directly. Now I pretty much own all the 3.5 stuff I need, so it's pretty much strictly Paizo from here on out. :)

Not a "boycott" in the proper sense, but then I've never been a believer in them anyway.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Tensor wrote:

Total amount spent on WotC products since the boycott, $0.00.

Two years and rolling!

:-)

As good as his word.

Silver Crusade

Me too.


it is too bad that wotc sinks this low with the current crappy edition they have in the stores.

Scarab Sages

What if you already quit buying their stuff back when they announced 4E? :p

Scarab Sages

2 years and rolling along happily.....smurf!

The Exchange

WoTC $0.00
Paizo will continue to get every penny I can spare for game stuff.
Been that way since the (you know whats) killed my two favorite mags!


I've actually quite enjoyed the D&Di take on the mags, myself.


which is absolutely fine when you play 4E. If you don't..........

Liberty's Edge

I actually bought the base 4th books and tried playing it. I didn't like how it originally looked but our group wanted to try it out so I bought the DMG and PHB and someone else bought the MM.

After trying our hardest to like it, the three books are now the proud property of ... well someone else. On the plus side the money I made off them I used to buy more Pathfinder stuff.

That was the last 4e I bought or anything from Wizards for that matter. Even selling my core DMG, PHB, and soon the MM too cause I won't need em when Pathfinder hits the shelfs.


Total amount spent on WotC products since the Boycott began all those years ago, because they canceled the mags: $0.00

I will never buy a wotc product again, because NOW I DON"T HAVE TO !

[End Of Line]

This will hopefully be my last post in this thread (unless they do something dumb again.)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Never really went in for the boycott, just never bought any 4e stuff. I did buy an Orcus mini recently ... Well, c'mon, it's ORCUS!

So: WotC gets ~$65 in 3 years vs. the ~$100 a month they used to get, and I feel OK since I ordered it thru Paizo so they got a cut =D

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