geez, who pulled the drama tag out? i'm going to miss my dragon subscription, but hey.
No kidding. Do I get roleplay XP if I sound over-wrought? :P
Yeah, it's a dark day, but it's not the end of the world as we know it.
Telas
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Like so many folks, I'm taking this rather emotionally. Words like "It's an institution" suddenly have a real meaning. When I started playing boxed D&D and later 1E AD&D (for grown-ups) then Dragon was there. Blimey, that was 1985! Later I discovered Dungeon too and read them in the shop, buying the ones I absolutely couldn't do without.
Skip twenty odd years forward, six without gaming, and the sheer joy of getting my monthly fixes in the local store (friends of mine, so subscription hard to do), the Age of Worms and Savage Tide - it's shocking that it's being cancelled.
I had a quick look at the Pathfinder website and saw James Jacobs, Richard Pett, Nicholas Logue, Wolfgang Baur, Steve Greer in the new AP. Lord knows when we'll have time to play it, but I'll buy them just to read and look forward to!
Count me in, guys, best of luck and let's all watch this take you to richly deserved new heights!
I'm off to see the Euro subscription arrangements!
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Deeply disappointed in the deathknell of Dragon and Dungeon and have posted my disdain at the WTFWizards forums.
I have renewed my subscription with Paizo for Pathfinder and look forward to the superlative efforts of James, Eric, and the Crew!
Thank you for all you have done to "Make Mine Mona!"
Cheers!
HP Lovecraft graverubber/ Moonglum
I'm a collosal fan of Paizo, and my loyalty to their quality and performance, both as creators of game material and as a corporate entity of their own, is unshakeable. If my wallet can abide it, I'll be on deck for Pathfinder.
WotC? I'm sad about this, but I'm going to assume they had their reasons. Maybe not good ones, maybe great ones; I wasn't in the board room, so I can't know either way. What I do know is that, in the end, WotC is D&D, whether us consumers like it or not. Paizo took the foundation laid by WotC and made something great, but it could never have happened without what WotC made. As much as Pathfinder will hopefully rock the socks and roll the soul, without WotC it could never have existed. I think thats something we need to remember.
I'll continue to support both companies, as I always have. I'll adjust to the changes this brings, as I always have. And I'll continue to enjoy the products released by both companies, and use them to bring enjoyment, satisfaction, happiness, good freindships, great memories, and most of all, fun to my gaming table. Long live the game!
This just sucks.
On a lighter note: are there any rich dudes out there who want to buy the D&D franchise from WotC? It would be most appreciated.
I can only echo what most have said about Dungeon and Dragon. I subscribed way back at issue 1 of Dungeon (never been a huge Dragon fan), and have every issue either through subscription or one-offs. I actually just subscribed a few weeks ago, and came to the site to check the status of my subscription! Imagine my surprise....
Erik: Is there anyone at WotC we can write to complain and offer our opinions? I'm a net geek, but I loathe the idea of reading Dungeon-type content online.
While this whole situation truly bites the wax tadpole, it is nice to know that Paizo, the wonderful staff, the gifted writers, and the community as a whole will still be here.
Words cannot express how upsetting this is, and how grateful I am for the last 5 years. Thanks.
Uhm, where will WotC get their "new" talent from when the current ones disappear? Dragon and Dungeon is the place where a lot of new people got their break, if you don't provide an environment for talent to grow, you will eventually end up with no talent......
I hope someone raised the above point at the board meeting ;>
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I'm sorry, but I can't assume anything. I can rail at them my displeasure and tell them to go jump in a lake, and will.
I'm through with it.
Nothing against you or nothing. I'm just really pissed right now.
I think I'm going to walk away from all this.Walk away from WotC, Paizo, or both?
Haven't seen you this serious since we talked about atheism, what's on your mind pal?
I'm tired of Wizards, frankly.
I'm gonna buy the Pathfinder stuff, because I'll be boycotting Wizards now.Sebastian, where'd you go?!?
If I disintegrated you, I'm sorry; I didn't know I was that mad...
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm sorry, but I can't assume anything. I can rail at them my displeasure and tell them to go jump in a lake, and will.
I'm through with it.
Nothing against you or nothing. I'm just really pissed right now.
I think I'm going to walk away from all this.Walk away from WotC, Paizo, or both?
Haven't seen you this serious since we talked about atheism, what's on your mind pal?
I'm tired of Wizards, frankly.
I'm gonna buy the Pathfinder stuff, because I'll be boycotting Wizards now.
Got it. For a minute there I thought maybe you were throwing your hands up in the air over Paizo too. Then I realized I'd seen you posting about boycotting WotC in other threads and realized it was WotC you were (understandably) pissed at, not Paizo. Which is why I deleted my post.
We may not eat that pie together after all...
;-)
I'm not sure on my WotC feelings. I'm irritated as hell that they'd kill such a legacy, particularly when all the hard work was being done for them. But, end of the day, it is a business...
I started collecting Dragon (THE Dragon back then) when I was 12. That was 25 years ago. It's been a fixture in my life for well over half of it.
I was on board with the first issue of Dungeon. I even co-wrote a couple of adventures waaaaaaaay back in the day.
Now I guess I will have to be on board with the first issue of Pathfinder too...
When my partner comes home from work, he is going to find me very very upset.
Don't really even know what to say. Not really all that mad at WOTC. But... Geeze....
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I'm sick and tired of getting jerked around.
Me too. I feel like crying. And hey, Pathfinder from Paizo sounds great. At $18 a month? Am I reading that right? I couldn't give a flying f*ck about how it is bound or the "booklike" quality of it. 2 adventures a month....sucks. Of course I can buy up the Gamemastery line of adventures at $13 each to get my 3 a month......sucks. What about the articles, the maps of mystery, the critical threats,....whatever. Who cares anymore. I don't want to pay $30+ dollars a month just to get some adventures, whatever the quality. I can't afford $360 dollars a year (or $216 if I just get Pathfinder). I guess I will just have to say goodbye to Paizo. I loved you guys and tried to give as much as I could to keep you going but I can't afford to stay and justify that much cash for 2 adventure paths. Shackled City hard cover was way less than half that for 1 path. This sucks. I hate WOTC. I hope they burn.
FH
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm 38. Once every two weeks I go get my D&D magazines. And I read them. That's what I do. I don't like getting jerked around. Now I can't do what I do. I don't ask for much, just a freakin' magazine, you bastards!!!!!
So I'm mad.
I talked to my wife after I saw the news, and she said "you love those magazines, this is a big deal for you isn't it." It is. I do the same thing. I know when an issue is due and start watching the mailbox. This is my primary internet community, I come here first before going anywhere else. I check the boards more than I should, post more than is reasonable, and b!&!% more than is polite. And, I think like many posters on these boards who dreamed of someday getting time to write an adventure/article and have it published, I'm sad that day will never come.
Farewell Dragon, farewell Dungeon.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Yeh. It's a business. And I can tell them to go jump in a lake.
THEN, if enough people do that, they might quit jerking me around. I doubt it though, but I still have my pride. Either way, I lose, but I don't care.
But you can't. Lake is a WotC trademark. Improper use is likely to get you sued. Try "Go jump in a pond" or, better yet, "Go jump in a sewage filled pit."
Damn! As others have said this really feels like someone just shot my pet.
I'm sure if I read this in a few I will sound overly dramatic, but it's true, I shed a tear when I read the announcement here at Paizo. I've been reading Dragon magazine since I started playing D&D, got a subscription years later for both magazines, and without a doubt the years at Paizo have been the best years ever.
This is sad.
I'm onboard with Pathfinder though.
And WotC... well, I'm angry, but we'll see...
I don't think they can do a better job than the people at Paizo, but I'll try to keep an open mind.
I adore the Adventure Paths that Paizo have been building up, I thought that since there was so much positive feedback about these that something like this wasn't going to happen anytime soon.
I guess Dungeon 150 will be special for all the wrong reasons...But at least the Savage Tide concludes...
Thanks for everything Paizo
U guys should check out the WotC boards. All hell is breaking loose and their decision actually has some supporters!
I could explain how sad I am by this announcement - I think everyone else has said it better than I could.
I am definitely still interested in supporting Paizo, and I'm intrigued by the new Pathfinder AP. More content always sounds good to me. I have a question for Paizo: I only have two more months left on my subscription to both DUNGEON and DRAGON, which won't get me to the final issues. Is there any way for me to subscribe to Pathfinder in such a way that I can still get the final issues of both magazines in my mailbox, or do I have to purchase them at a game store? Thanks for the help.
- David
It initially seems the decision was taken out of Paizo's hands by WOTC, but with the comment, "the sales of the magazines were not a factor in this decision.", makes it also seem that Paizo had some decision-making authority in this choice. What were the un-named factors that led Paizo to this decision? Was it truly out of their hands?
It is interesting to note that a friend of mine had his Dragon subscription expire with the latest issue. Three days ago, he received an offer from Paizo to renew in one, two, and three-year increments. Why would Paizo offer a 36-issue subscription in April knowing they would only be able to honor four or five? As I type this comment, I notice I can still go to Paizo and order subscriptions to both magazines. This seems like Paizo is more concerned with taking in money now and then figuring out how to satisfy the customer later - not a wise business move.
Oops, let me add that by checking out the current ability to order on-line, I see that one can only get one issue at a time, not an entire year's subscription. Sorry. That still does not address the mailed subscription offer, however.
Were the magazines losing money?
Absolutely not. As far as I know, the sales of the magazines were not a factor in this decision. We're actually very pleased with the sales of the magazines, and in particular with our growing subscriber lists.
Here's hoping that enough readers decide to give Pathfinder and our GameMastery Modules a try. We're extremely excited about the new opportunities we'll have with the new arrangement.
--Erik
(From my post on the Dragon messageboard side, I don't know how else to rephrase my shock at the decision. I haven't decided yet how angry I am with WotC.)
My first issues were Dragon #81 and Dungeon #1. My first (and only) published adventure was in Dungeon #32. For me, the passing of these two magazines is the end of an era, like the elves leaving Middle-Earth for good. With the excellent stewardship of these magazines under Paizo, I look forward to Pathfinder, but when I walk into my FLGS and see nothing but miniature battles and card games, I can't help but worry for the future of tabletop RPGs. This is a sad day for the hobby that's been with me three-quarters of my life.
-Colin
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I wish I could say this is a win-win situation or a lose-lose situation but I get the feeling its much more a win-lose situation with most dungeon subscribers on the losing side.
As a casual player and a member of the older generation (30+ years) of D&D I will take my copy of dungeon #150 and place it on my shelf with the others never to be seen with another publication from Paizo.
Dungeon for me was a cheap source for inspiration and many hours of entertainment with my friends around the D&D table. Pathfinder however seems to be just a more convenient way to push me into buying an expensive book with, at best, 50% of the content being used.
I didnt buy dragon because I have enough rules and fiction through novels and the core D&D rulebooks.
I have to ask, what happens to the fan submitted adventures that filled some of the pages of dungeon? the pathfinder seems to only have room for the adventure path staple that has brought alot of people to purchase dungeon in recent years.
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I started buying Dragon & Dungeon after our DM started running Shackled City. I've never had a subscription or seriously thought about getting one. But they were the first and most important thing I looked for when I went to the bookstore. I've never before been so interested in a magazine or a website as I have been with all of you for the last 3 years. I'm going to sign up for Pathfinder here in a few minutes then give my my old gaming group a call to give them a heads-up. I look forward to the future with Pathfinder and all of the messageboard veterans : )
It initially seems the decision was taken out of Paizo's hands by WOTC, but with the comment, "the sales of the magazines were not a factor in this decision.", makes it also seem that Paizo had some decision-making authority in this choice. What were the un-named factors that led Paizo to this decision? Was it truly out of their hands?
It is interesting to note that a friend of mine had his Dragon subscription expire with the latest issue. Three days ago, he received an offer from Paizo to renew in one, two, and three-year increments. Why would Paizo offer a 36-issue subscription in April knowing they would only be able to honor four or five? As I type this comment, I notice I can still go to Paizo and order subscriptions to both magazines. This seems like Paizo is more concerned with taking in money now and then figuring out how to satisfy the customer later - not a wise business move.
Paizo has no decision-making authority in this matter. I've seen this same notion crop up on the WotC boards today, too, and I can't imagine where it's coming from. If we were allowed to, we'd publish Dragon and Dungeon until the end of time. As licensees, though, we're beholden to the license holder and since WotC has decided to take the brand in house and go another direction with the magazines all we can do is look to our future and plan accordingly. We wish WotC the best in their ventures and hope folks will enjoy what we have to offer.
You can only get month-to-month subscriptions to Dungeon or Dragon on paizo.com as of 11:00 A.M. this morning. We suspended subscriptions greater than one year nearly six months ago. Unfortunately, our in-bag renewal letters didn't get changed and we've had to deal with the customer service side of that mistake.
There is no grand conspiracy here.
CEO
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Probably overly emotional, but let me be the first to say f#~! Wizards.Pathfinder it is then. I'll follow the talent.
And knowing Lisa's track record, it'll probably be the biggest thing since Magic and Vampire.
Game on, Paizo. Game on.
Thanks Sebastian! We always do our best to provide the highest quality, top-notch gaming product that we can. I think you guys will love what we have in store for you. With the great talent sitting in this office with me, how can we not?
-Lisa
Lisa, I must say I am shocked by todays announcement but I know you will go forward with the new endeavor.I must admit I will miss the magazines also, on that note will the forums remain for people to discuss the adventures?..it would be a shame to loose all the great information.
Hey folks...
Can someone tell me...
Should we stop trying to submit to both magazines now or what?
And will Pathfinder have writers locked in to a specific campaign setting?
Help!
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Wow.
Wow.
Ok ... well, I'm very very sad to see Dragon and Dungeon going. Seems like a bizarre decision. Changing to pure online content doesn't do it for me.
But - Good luck to Paizo with Pathfinder and all. I really want to support this new endevour, hopefully I can get over the increased price (the MUCH increased price here in Australia no doubt...)
:(
I hope that the people on the WotC boards got the news that it was all Wizards fault.
How dare those select few who blame Paizo.
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Booo! Hissss! I actually have every issue of Dungeon, and probably have enough adventures that I have not used yet to still keep me going for another 5 years or so, but this still is massively disappointing. I look forward to getting my magazines in the mail every month, and I will miss them terribly. While Pathfinder looks great, the price may keep me from getting it....
...sigh...
Yes this is a sad day but there is nothing what-so-ever to be done about it. After a twenty year hiatus, Dungeon brought me back to the game. As someone else already said, I will follow the talent. I will invest in Pathfinder and the GameMastery modules and encourage others to do the same. I own issues of Dragon and Dungeon from over the course of their long and distinguished lives. The current content is undoubtedly the best ever. This is due, IMO, largely to the outstanding capabilities of Erik and James. They will continue to have my business. I can predict that Pathfinder will be a legend as well if these two men have anything to do with it. And, that compliment is extended to everyone associated with the current magazines. Nope, this is hardly the end of the world. I'm looking forward to Pathfinder and whatever WOTC decides to put on the internet. In the end, it's just more game to love.
The only good thing I can say about this in now I won't have to go and try finding more storage space for all my issues of Dungeon.
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Hi guys,
You may not know me that well. I'm that guy. You know, the one that lurks. I'm proud to say that I have been buying Dragon and Dungeon since I was eight years old (I think I qualify for grognard status now at 31).
Like many of you, this one hits hard. I really don't know what to say.
Like Sebastian, I went to my wife with a look like someone shot my dog. She understands what D&D, Dragon, and Dungeon mean to me, and it has been a part of our lives, our friends lives, and our families lives as long as we can all remember.
Like Heathanson I feel some anger to the corporate entity that is Wizard's of the Coast. This however is tempered with the fact that roughly ten years ago, they saved my hobby to begin with...I was there when Dragon and Dungeon were on their last legs last time and all TSR put out was crap. I'm going to give them a chance to make good.
I have to say that Paizo has earned me as a loyal customer for life, though. Their dedication and growth has been something that I'm sure many of us have quietly admired over the past five years. Their company is a labor of love and The Adventure Path has been genius, and I'm happy to be forwarding my subscription into Pathfinder.
I have to offer a special thanks to Erik Mona though for all that he has done to support Greyhawk. We old folks have a special love for this world that can't be described, and he has kept the flame lit for many years. I hope that flame burns strong for many years to come, but I think that the time has come for something new.
Erik, take what you have built with these wonderful people; writers, artists, cartographers, and publishing staff and give us that new world, the one that we grognards have been waiting for. The one that we KNOW you are capable of. It's time. I have to say it was thrilling to see that the people at Paizo have one in the works. Don't be afraid to do it your way, because that is why we have all flocked to these boards to voice our support (even those of us who usually lurk). This new world, the lore it contains, and the canvas its maps will be drawn on will take time, but we are willing to be there every step of the way. It will be like a dungeon, built slowly by grimy kobold slaves, brick by brick, and one day, I hope to DM my grandkids through it, and watch in wonder as they find secrets doors, vanquish monsters that haven't even been created as of today (but will be old favorites by then), and find the glorious reward in the final chamber that only imagination can bring.
Good luck Paizo, and thanks for bringing my favorite magazines home on their final stretch. No one could have done it better.
- Jeremy
RIP Dragon
1976-2007
RIP Dungeon
1986-2007
*pours a 40 for Dragon and Dungeon*
I've never before been so interested in a magazine or a website as I have been with all of you for the last 3 years.
This is the only place on the world wide web to find sirkaikillah posting on a message board.
Dragon and Dungeon magazines are the only ones I ever really check out. Because of delivery problems with both magazines, prior to Paizo, I am reluctant to renew my subscriptions. I was just about to change that and subscribe. I will difinitly think about the Pathfinder stuff.
Man I am still bumped, but I have faith in the people at Paizo and look forward to what the will bring in the coming months.
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Creative Director
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Hey folks...
Can someone tell me...
Should we stop trying to submit to both magazines now or what?
And will Pathfinder have writers locked in to a specific campaign setting?
Help!
Both magazines are pretty much full up on content; we're not looking for additional submissions for Dragon or for Dungeon.
Pathfinder's contents will be based in a new campaign world that Paizo's in the process of crafting right now; this same world will be the setting for our GameMastery adventures. This setting will closely follow the implied setting of the SRD, though, with humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halfings, half-elves, and half-orcs being the primary PC races and alll that follows.
But I liked coming here and talking with everyone about Dungeon adventures and D&D.
This is terrible.
Your Dragon and Dungeon reign was conducted with class, congratulations.
In five years of publishing DRAGON and DUNGEON, Paizo received twelve Gen Con EN World RPG Awards (ENnies) and the 2004 Origins Award for Best Gaming Related Periodical.
But it'll be better for you when you are free of them. I am sure everyone in here will do their best to send as many new gamers here as we possibly can.
Good luck getting the Greyhawk license, Mona--I'm one of the people who would like to see that.
Pathfinder's contents will be based in a new campaign world that Paizo's in the process of crafting right now; this same world will be the setting for our GameMastery adventures. This setting will closely follow the implied setting of the SRD, though, with humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halfings, half-elves, and half-orcs being the primary PC races and alll that follows.
oooOOOOOOOoooooooh!
Shiny!
wow; am stunned speechless
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Chief Technical Officer
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Because of delivery problems with both magazines, prior to Paizo, I am reluctant to renew my subscriptions. I was just about to change that and subscribe. I will difinitly think about the Pathfinder stuff.
Pathfinder is a book, not a magazine, so it won't be shipped as Periodicals class mail. That's a REALLY good thing for you and me both.
-Vic.
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