The best thing in D&D is gone. Ouch. I don't know what else to say.
Yep, I'm stunned and saddened beyond belief. End of an era. Let's see what happens with Wizards' online content.
I'm stunned. WWWWWWHHHHHHHYYYYY?
Probably overly emotional, but let me be the first to say f*#@ Wizards.Pathfinder it is then. I'll follow the talent.
And knowing Lisa's track record, it'll probably be the biggest thing since Magic and Vampire.
Game on, Paizo. Game on.
Thanks for the perspective. I have hope. Pathfinder it is.
Yep, just subscribed. Not only does the initial content sound promisingly cool, it's the right thing to do. I'll convert my remaining subscriptions to store credit to buy back issues.
I won't condemn Wizards just yet. It is business after all, but I sure hope their online content doesn't suck and is not a big rip off.
Paizo, thanks for the excellence!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am stunned. I grew up reading these magazines (age 14 to now 37.)
I actually feel like a friend has just died.
I am putting my faith in Paizo, however. Everything ends and there are always new beginnings!!
WotC can kiss my &%%. Paizo, you suck too. I will NOT be following this new Pathfinder crap, I don't care who is writing it.
Dragon and Dungeon are institutions, for Pelor's sake!!! How could you all do this?
I will keep playing D&D, but I will not buy WotC products again, nor will I buy anything from Paizo.
Over-reaction on my part? Some will say yes, that's their opinion, but this is just horrible.
This is a sad day.
I have no idea why Wizard would not renew the contract. Even ignoring ny personal incredible disappointment and I'm sure the incredible disappointment of every poster here, from a financial standpoint it doesn't make much sense.
Many of the products I purchased from Wizard, and indeed my first intrest in D and D, came from the content of Dungeon and Dragon magazine.
I don't know what to say. My mouth is still hanging open.
As much as I love Paizo, I hope this doesn't turn into a "SCREW WOTC" thing.
From a Paizo fan's standpoint, this seems like a good thing. Seems like a lot of things Paizo wanted to do were nixed by WOTC, so we now get to see all the Dungeon and Dragon talent working unfettered by Wizards bigshots.
I'm really excited!
Paizo, you suck too.
Somehow, I don't think this was Paizo's doing.
Thanks to everyone at Paizo for Pathfinder - and be sure to offer a subscription model for the GameMastery modules. I need my monthly D&D fix.
Oh sorry, I meant OGL fix.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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WotC can kiss my &%%. Paizo, you suck too. I will NOT be following this new Pathfinder crap, I don't care who is writing it.
Dragon and Dungeon are institutions, for Pelor's sake!!! How could you all do this?
I will keep playing D&D, but I will not buy WotC products again, nor will I buy anything from Paizo.
Over-reaction on my part? Some will say yes, that's their opinion, but this is just horrible.
This is a sad day.
Dude, wtf? It's not Paizo's fault the license is being cancelled. I doubt they can give a lot of details, but it sounds like this was unilateral on WotC. I hope I'm not putting words in the mouths of the Pazoians, but I'm pretty sure they'd be happy to continue printing Dragon and Dungeon until their fingers bled. The can't do that anymore, but they're going to bring their considerable experience and talent to bear on Pathfinder. I'm seriously bummed that Dragon/Dungeon are dead, but Pathfinder is their successor.
I bought Dragon back in the days before Dungeon, but 138-150 are my first (and last) Dungeons. All I can say is, they've been great, but I bought them mainly for the Savage Tide Adventure Path, and now I wish it had been published in the heftier and longer-lasting Pathfinder format.
For the adventure paths, at least, this is really going to be a significant improvement. If my group were more than 1/6 of the way through the Savage Tide, I'd subscribe to Pathfinder in a moment; as it is, I'll wait until the next time I need to DM something.
Best of luck to the Paizo crew and contributors.
“Today the internet is where people go to get this kind of information,” said Scott Rouse, Senior Brand Manager of Dungeons & Dragons®, Wizards of the Coast. “By moving to an online model we are using a delivery system that broadens our reach to fans around the world. Paizo has been a great partner to us over the last several years. We wish them well on their future endeavors.”
B#@%##!~, B+&+%&*%, B%+$*~%#.
I, for one, cannot stand being forced to read gaming content on the internet. That's why I print out Dungeon's Web Enhancements and purchase BOOKS from WotC.
And most people who go to the internet for content, get it for free. If Wizards thinks they're going to get as many web subscribers as Paizo has DUNGEON and DRAGON subscribers, they're in for a rude awakening.
This is ridiculous.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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WotC can kiss my &%%. Paizo, you suck too. I will NOT be following this new Pathfinder crap, I don't care who is writing it.
Dragon and Dungeon are institutions, for Pelor's sake!!! How could you all do this?
I will keep playing D&D, but I will not buy WotC products again, nor will I buy anything from Paizo.
Over-reaction on my part? Some will say yes, that's their opinion, but this is just horrible.
This is a sad day.
Paizo has licensed the right to publish Dragon and Dungeon from Wizards of the Coast since 2002. The decision whether or not to renew that license did not rest with Paizo. We're doing our best to offer similar content to our existing customers in a variety of ways, including Pathfinder and the new GameMastery Modules series.
We hope you'll give them a look, but continuing to publish Dragon and Dungeon was not an option available to Paizo.
i hate the death of the two things that to me were the best of D&D and yeah i kinda lay this at wizards feet i tend to like the paizo stuff far better then anything wizards come up with just has a better feel wizards stuff now days to me seems to be all about the money and not the game ..i know u need to make money but paizo has showed a way to me that is the better way to do it,so yeah i'll go with pathfinder. and i have my mags i can look though i mean really that and the core books is all thats ever need to run one hell of a game. this is just one of the saddest days in gameing ever .
Erik, I chose to switch my credit over to Pathfinder, but my Subscriptions page says I'm getting issues 2 (in September) and 3. I don't want to miss issue #1 - what's up with that?
I personally hate reading online content and prefer print options. Also, Dragon and Dungeon are institutions!
I'm sorry to see these magazines go. Were the magazines losing money? Is it the bottom line talking here or what? I mean I'm really left scratching my head? Did WotC's market research indicate the damage this might do? Sure, the internet is a great medium, doesn't mean magazines are going out of fashion anytime soon though. I for one am playing D&D now because I got completely wrapped up in the Dungeon AP. It's the Paizo community that has been instrumental in making my games the rich experience they are, and it's Paizo's publications that have been the fuel for my gaming the last two years. I just want to say to James Jacobs and the rest of the Paizo staff, I've really appreciated your conscientious committment to these boards, and the community of gamers using your products.
Shutting down Dragon and Dungeon will be a grave mistake.
Probably true. Does WOTC really expect that the next generation of D&D writers will cut their teeth writing online content for Wizards?
I hope Paizo will find an outlet for publishing inspired new authors such as Mr. and Ms. Connors.
I posted on Wizards boards...my first post over there!
Mine is not a negative post, but others have already jumped in to let Wizards know.
The best thing in D&D is gone. Ouch. I don't know what else to say.
I think I might cry.
Every month I go to the mailbox in anticipation of either Dungeon or Dragon magazine being there waiting. It is one of the things I most look forward to every single month and has been for the past 15 years. I really feel like I just lost a member of my family.
Getting punched in the chest is a good way to describe how I feel right now. It's like somebody just kicked my dog or something... O.o
This is unbelievable. Dungeon and Dragon have been foundational institutions in D&D for decades. Even when I wasn't subscribed I always bought the occasional issue and people discussed Dragon articles all the time. Hundreds of people got their foot in the door of this industry via these two magazines. Their loss is tragic, and I'll be sending some angry, angry emails to WotC about this serious blunder on their part. I sure as heck won't be paying money to read WotC articles online.
Still not sure about Pathfinder; I prefer many small adventures to one giant one because it allows for more variety, and I'm a picky person.
Darn, what a monumental shame.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Were the magazines losing money?
Absolutely not. As far as I know, the sales of the magazines were not a factor in this decision. We're actually very pleased with the sales of the magazines, and in particular with our growing subscriber lists.
Here's hoping that enough readers decide to give Pathfinder and our GameMastery Modules a try. We're extremely excited about the new opportunities we'll have with the new arrangement.
--Erik
Crud. I kept meaning to get a Dungeon subscription, but I never got around to it and just bought my issues month-to-month at my local store. Now, I guess I won't be able to.
That said, I'll certainly be giving Pathfinder a try.
And here I was refreshing and refreshing my browser, wondering what the announcement would be, thinking it couldn't possibly be 4th edition...
To WOTC - I really doubt I would pay money to subscribe to your online "magazine". The tangibility of the physical thing in my hands is important. I have downloaded free samples, and bought a few PDF RPG products from online companies, but they have been few and far between, and I don't really consider them anywhere near as important as my Dungeon mags.
Even though Paizo's content has been fantastic for the last few years I have been buying Dungeon (haven't missed an issue since 106) I really doubt I would have paid my money for a digital version instead. I would have missed out, I guess.
In any case, I suppose the decisions have been made, and no amount of outcry will change things for the "suits" at Hasbro.
Here's a salute and a tear for Dungeon, and a hopeful look to the horizon for Pathfinder.
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I am throwing wild speculation here, but Dragon and Dungeon may be victims of their success:
1. WotC spins off publishing Dungeon and Dragon as non-core business
2. Dungeon and Dragon sales get stronger
3. WotC purchased by Hasboro
4. Dungeon and Dragon continue to do very well
5. Hasboro beancounter reviews income from Paizo's licenses vs potential income if they axed the license and sold directly to consumers
6. Paizo told license is yanked
Simple, nes pas?
Oh and I forgot to add -
7. I stop buying WotC products and subscribe to Pathfinder for APs and buy Game Mastery modules for one-shots.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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The only problem I see with Pathfinder is the price... I got a year of Dungeon and Dragon for $75 - that's $6.25 a month for 2 magazines!! Pathfinder is $20 a month, and even at their 30% off subscription price, that's still $14 a month - double what I paid for the other two. And what with being an poorly paid student, I need every help I can get with cash.
I definitely understand the bit about needing cash. You'd be surprised how little room there is between the cashflow of a student and an RPG company publisher. :)
Here are some points to condier about Pathfinder:
• Each volume is a perfect-bound book with a cardstock cover and a much thicker quality of paper. It will be _much_ more durable than a magazine.
• Unlike the magazines, Pathfinder's content will not be subsidized by ads, resulting in more content for you.
• Pathfinder will include content similar to that found in both Dragon and Dungeon. It's perhaps more accurate to say that it is a replacement for both magazines, rather than a replacement for just Dungeon.
But yeah, Pathfinder is more expensive than Dragon and Dungeon. There's no getting away from that. We believe it will be a higher-quality product and we think it will be more than worth the price. A better comparison in terms of value is probably a product like WotC's "Red Hand of Doom."
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WTF! This cannot be true, it must be a dream. The insanity i tell you... Damn it to the 9 hells is all i can say. Both Dungeon & Dragon Magazine are just way to good to just have the plug pulled on them! I mean come on WotC, all of us whom subscribe to these magazines will all be looking elsewhere for our monthly fix and for the most part i gather it will not be at WotC.
Agreed that it is a business and decisions must be made to further advance a company but COME ON... isn't customer satisfaction a key component in this industry. With the amount of gamers out there, ya think we could have at least had a say in this matter! But that would mean we live in a perfect world.
I nod my head to my friends at Paizo. Both Magazines will be missed and i do hope Pathfinder will become an excellent successor with many many adventures to come in the various realms we all play in!
To WotC... (shaking my head here) I officially state that this was a bad move!
Such i life in the 21st century i guess
Well as must as Dungeon and Dragon magazines are an institution this really gives the folks at Paizo to really do what they want without the WotC chains. No more wondering if there will be a hardcover of the AP. No it's not a great thing, but there really is an up side to this.
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It sounds like somebody in WotC marketing gave a great presentation to the higher-ups, touting online content as the way of the future. How he or she talked the folks concerned with profit out of the sure thing which is the steady revenue stream from licensing to Paizo, I'll never know.
This strikes me as extremely ill-advised.
On top of that, I'm just as sad as everyone else to see these two magazines go. I'm giving Pathfinder a try with my leftover subscription. It's a considerably larger annual investment than the other two magazines combined, so I don't know if I can stick with it. I'm looking forward to the monthly adventures as well.
For the Paizo folks:
Look for a drop in Pathfinder sales after the start of each AP. I predict the $19 price tag will make DMs really think hard about whether they will run that path or not. If a large amount of info on the nature or flavor of the upcoming path is available, you may get a lot of folks deciding whether they will pick up the whole path before they even read (buy) any of it. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you haven't thought of already, though. Best of luck and keep up the good work!
Bob Hopp
Here are some points to condier about Pathfinder:
• Each volume is a perfect-bound book with a cardstock cover and a much thicker quality of paper. It will be _much_ more durable than a magazine.
• Unlike the magazines, Pathfinder's content will not be subsidized by ads, resulting in more content for you.
• Pathfinder will include content similar to that found in both Dragon and Dungeon. It's perhaps more accurate to say that it is a replacement for both magazines, rather than a replacement for just Dungeon.
Wow. You know...that sounds really good. Especially point two.
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This apparently means that the Paizo/Greyhawk love affair is over. I've always been setting neutral, so this doesn't bother me too much, but I have to believe that there are folks at Paizo, and certainly folks on these boards who will be pretty upset over that alone.
Care to offer any juicy tidbits about the flavor of the new Paizo setting?
As I wrote in the Dragon forum, I am very sad to hear about this.
What will happen to Savage Tide? I thought that one was supposed to go on much longer?
I will give Pathfinder a look, but I will miss the things you can no longer publish such as the Campaign Classics type articles...
Thanks for the good times Erik & Co :)
Havard
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I have been buying both magazines off and on for the last twenty years and I have really enjoyed the heights that both magazines obtained over the last five years. I’m just really saddened to hear this. I am really going to miss the monthly arrival of both magazines in my mail box.
That being said, I hope that “Pathfinder” is a massive success!
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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This apparently means that the Paizo/Greyhawk love affair is over. I've always been setting neutral, so this doesn't bother me too much, but I have to believe that there are folks at Paizo, and certainly folks on these boards who will be pretty upset over that alone.
I can't speak for my cohorts, but my love affair with Greyhawk predates my professional gaming career by more than a decade, and will continue until they put me in a casket. James, Jason, and I just co-wrote "Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk" for WotC, which will be releasing in August.
I am on record at WotC as being extremely interested in a Greyhawk license or licensing opportunities related to that property. So we'll see what happens.
Care to offer any juicy tidbits about the flavor of the new Paizo setting?
We'll be posting a blog later today on the Pathfinder page that will offer exactly that!
Service with a smile! :)
--Erik
I am on record at WotC as being extremely interested in a Greyhawk license or licensing opportunities related to that property. So we'll see what happens.
That would be AWESOME!
:)Thanks for keeping a positive attitude Erik. :)
I too am stunned and saddened like so many posting here. I must shake my head in dismay at another funky move on WoTC's part. I can't say that I'm excited by the way that company does it's business. Mini booster packs were the start, no AP Hardcover permission after Shackled City was the middle, and pulling the carpet out from under Paizo is the end.
However.
Paizo has clearly been hobbled by it's connections to WoTC. Being free of that can only be a good thing. Paizo's business model has been nothing short of wonderful. Amazing magazines, creative ideas, awesome accessories, and let us not forget: the messageboards. Where else can we, the great unwashed, ask questions of and be answered by the editors, authors, and publishers of a much beloved product? The Customer Service at Paizo could. not. be. better. As much as we love what Paizo produces, they return that love with bend-over-backwards fan service.
So, my choice is pretty clear. I will happily subscribe to Pathfinder, (as long as my mortgage lets me). There are too many rapacious businesses out there. I will not let the opportunity pass to support a genuine good hearted business which, oh yeah, produces a top notch product that I want.
So I'm looking forward to what happens next. The sky's the limit folks.
Thank you for caring about us Paizo.
*shuffles off to subscribe to Pathfinder*