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I guess Paizo will be able to finish Savage Tide by Issue 150 (which is the end of their contract with WotC)?

I'd really love to see some more Maure Castle too, but I guess that's just not gonna happen.

Doc

Sorry if I came across to accusatory or whiny in my previous post. The whole reason why I'm so frustrated with the level of difficulty is because the rest of it seems so compelling and interesting that it seems a shame to not use it.

As far as my assumptions about the difficulty of STAP, those came from the editor, Mr. Jacobs. I think he knows better than any of us what the content for STAP is going to look like. I'm just going by what he posted to come to the conclusion that STAP isn't right for my group.

I'm not trying to critize the magazine or any of its fans. If your group is able to use the Adventure Path and succeed, then more power to you. When I previously attempted to run the SCAP (from the hardcover), I found it impossibly difficult for my group and more than a little frustrating. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it was the biggest challenge I've faced as a DM, and it also soured me on the gaming experience altogether.

We had six players at every session - wizard, fighter, ranger, rogue, favored soul, and cleric. I ran side quests to give them enough experience to be 1-2 levels above those suggested in the module text. I tried to scale down the challenges, but it seemed that I was putting in just about as much work as if I were designing my own module - I had to adjust almost every encounter.

My entire point in the past couple of posts is that if there is a standard assumption of character powers, why design modules that assume the characters have more than that power? I personally don't enjoy ending sessions at a climactic encounter when half of the party dies. That slows down gameplay and encourages the party to act with such extreme caution as to avoid many of the challenges whenever possible. They did this time and again in SCAP.

I am a Dungeon subscriber, and I do have the first three installments of STAP, so I am not making these points blindly. I was concerned when I initially read through them, and now I know that my concern was well placed. I think that even a 3rd level party of 4 characters would have serious trouble with "There Is No Honor." I am just disappointed that Dungeon seems to favor impossible odds modules.

How about some modules in which the party has a reasonable chance of succeeding in? Really, to me it's much more fun for characters to be able to shine rather than get killed by overpowered encounters. As the DM it's no fun for me to know that I have to play my combatants very unintelligently and hold back on their powers to give the party a chance to win.

My players are - in my estimation - a good mix of roleplaying and tactical players. During SCAP I revised the party's configuration so they would be better optimized for the encounters.

We had a wizard, rogue, cleric, favored soul, fighter, and ranger, and the party still got their arses handed to them - having to flee from most every encounter.

We created the party with 32 point buy. I gave them a bonus feat at character creation. A different method of rolling for hit points ensured they got at least 50% maximum every level. They always had at least the average party wealth. I gave them action points and Fate Points - which let them reverse any bad situation once every three levels. We had the recommended 6 characters, with rogue/fighter/ranger tooled out for combat, two divine healers, and a wizard with great utility magic (and some powerful punches later in the campaign).

So why is it that they failed in the SCAP? Why was the SCAP the most frustrating module I've ever tried to run?

Likely because it was written without any concern to balance the encounters to standard D&D play.

So if Savage Tide is even more difficult than SCAP (which is intended, as the hardcover says, for 6 characters whilst the STAP is supposed to be for 4), I'm sorry that I'll have to be passing on it.

Unfortunately it seems my Dungeon Mag subscription will now be 1/3 useless to me for the next year, filled with overpowered, unreasonably challenging modules that my group will refuse to play and that I will refuse to DM.

Doc

I've been concerned lately with the difficulty level of official game content. The last several WotC modules I've tried to run for my group - and even Paizo's own Shackled City Adventure Path - have proven impossibly difficult for my group.

Reading Wolfgang Baur's articles on module design on the WotC website has left me a little perplexed. In the articles he writes that modules are designed for a group of characters to be able to face regularly encounters 1-2 EL's above the average party level. "Boss" encounters can be 3-4 EL's above the average party level, he writes.

Such challenging encounters would almost always spell a TPK for my group, no matter what kind of characters they're playing (and we normally have 5-6 players in attendance).

So my question, as it relates to the STAP, is: How challenging is the new adventure path so far?

A more broad string of questions ... are core character classes (those found in the Players Handbook) now underpowered to the point to be ineffective in the newest official modules? Do the Paizo playtesters, writers, and staff assume that groups use gensai, warforged, shapeshifters, warlocks, samurai, dusk blades, etc.? (My group has no reliable access to these books during character creation and only occasionally during play.)

We had to abandon the SCAP at the beginning of the 4th adventure of the series. The 2nd adventure of the hardcover was also ridiculously difficult for my group, and they had to abandon it midway through to avoid a TPK. I would hate to begin the STAP to find it just as challenging and lethal as the SCAP and be forced to end it due to an impossible challenge level for my group.

How do you pronounce Maure?

I've been saying mah-RAY ... is that incorrect?

Thanks,
Ryan

Nothing helps tactics explanations like miniatures. Even dice or a stone to represent characters and grids made out of laminated paper work. You can show the combat, point out errors or things they may need to "think about" before execution.

We have been using miniatures since 3rd edition's release. We now have a pretty good selection of D&D plastic minis, and we utilize a dry erase mat with a 1" grid for tactical movement.

While I like that the miniatures erase some of the confusion about character placement, I think their use has its drawbacks. My group tends to second-guess almost every movement, moving the figures around in very unnatural ways as if we were playing checkers. Then they take the figure back to the starting position and rethink everything.

The use of miniatures has really slowed down our combats. We're pretty good with the rules (even the "complex" manuevers such as tripping, grappling, and bull rush), but the party seems on a whole very indecisive, not only about tactics.

Doc

Doesn't look that bad to me. You seem to have the four basic archetpes covered (fighter,rogue,wizard, cleric). Though maybe a but light on in the melee wombat area. What sort trouble are you running in to?

Well, they have been having major trouble. They were completely unable to damage Drakthar in any significant way and had to flee the dungeon, leaving it up to the Stormblades to complete the mission. When they entered the Lucky Monkey and - unwisely - called for Tongue Eater in the presence of his underlings, the group begged for a hard reset of the game, fearing a TPK.

Right now the party has one front line combatant (the paladin). Everyone else wants to be second rank or farther away from combat, and the paladin alone cannot hold the line. The Shadow Caster gets only two 1st level powers in a day (he took a level loss because he wanted to play a Drow), and he is so weak that a bard would be preferable.

The shugenja carries no weapons and wears no armor (AC 9). He has never inflicted a single point of damage. He says that he specializes in healing, but he only does it after the combat is over. He's essentially as helpful as a wand of cure light wounds, except that he can't be used in combat.

The necromancer has no area effect spells and is very limited on the damage he can do. He also cannot use invisiblity or silence, which hurts the party's rogue and scouting abilities.

The favored soul has no buffing spells at all. All he can do is cure and cast bless. He has none of the breadth of magic that a cleric has, and he is one caster level lower, meaning that it's harder for him to repair ability damage, etc. As the Shackled City progresses, he'll be truly limited in what he can do - it's doubtful he'll take divination magic instead of healing spells.

The party is really limited. After Drakthar's Way, I ran two back to back 1st level modules, and the party is still sweating its way through those combats.

Doc

I've been running Shackled City for a few months now, and the group has run into considerable (actually, insurmountable) difficulty ever since Drakthar's Way. We're now ready to start Flood Season, and they are terribly unprepared to deal with the dungeon. After testing their abilities, I've found this party of six 4th level characters is functioning about the same as four 2nd level characters.

Tomorrow night before the session, I'm going to try to talk them into swapping out some of the less effective characters so they have a chance at survival.

I'm curious to see what other posters think is the ideal party configuration for tackling the SCAP.

All recommendations must use the Core Rules, please. Due to some irresponsible player decisions, I'm banning all supplements from my game table. (Actually, they are making terribly underpowered characters that have no place in this campaign setting.)

Here's our current formation:
1. Paladin
2. Rogue
3. Shadow Caster (from Tome of Magic) [a very weak character that should be replaced]
4. Necromancer (uses summon undead and has no area effect magic, high damage spells, or access to any illusions)
5. Shugenja (from Complete Divine) [the weakest party member; has never inflicted a single point of damage over the course of play]
6. Favored Soul (from Complete Divine) [even though he's effective, he will be cut from the party because he's drawn from a supplemental source]

Thanks,
Doc

Well, the party got free vials of silver sheen, greater magic weapon oil, potions of protection from undead, and a fully charged wand of cure light wounds at a 3rd level caster. They purchased holy symbols to keep the vampire at bay.

But they still could not defeat Drakthar.

As the party was trapped between Drakthar and 5 rat swarms, he just kept pounding on the group. They could not escape the residual damage of the swarms every round. This, coupled with the vampire's energy drain slams, spelled certain doom.

Then the party got the attention of the darkmantles (for Drakthar ambushed them outside the creatures' lair, pushing them into their trap).

It would have easily been a TPK had I not stood down and allow the party to flee. Drakthar was hit once, and it was quickly regenerated.

The party has given up on Drakthar's Way. Fine by me: the adventure is impossible.

The only problem now is that they're woefully underpowered for Flood Season, since they're only 3rd level. I think they will be killed when they enter the Lucky Monkey.

How do groups actually succeed in the SCAP?

Thanks everyone for the advice. I guess I should be a little more precise.

The party is not evil. They are mostly neutral in alignment, some leaning toward good.

The only evil act they've seen from the Last Laugh was the thugs beating the cleric of Cuthbert at the beginning of the 1st adventure. The guild later explained this in very "gray" terms, and the party accepted they may not be rotten to the core. When the Last Laugh offered to assassinate Tyro Amberhelm, this was before anyone knew of his true identity. The party thought he was Orbius the Beholder or possibly the Blue Duke - without any real proof. (The party, to their credit, encouraged the Last Laugh to wait until they heard further details about Amberhelm before assassinating him.)

It is because of this that there's bad blood between the party and "Amberhelm." The party told him that they were meeting with the Last Laugh, who were considering assassinating him ... not really a good way to start out. Amberhelm was grooming one party member - an elven ranger - to become a possible candidate for the Striders, but that ranger became one of the chief finger-pointers thinking that he was Orbius. Amberhelm was also trying to be discreet with the ranger to test his personality, and the ranger blurted out that he would be willing to do evil if it meant that Amberhelm could grant him greater powers. So between the party's alliance with the Last Laugh and the crazed antics of the elven ranger, Amberhelm isn't in a likely position to aid them, not when he thinks he may be working against the Striders' cause.

The party has only asked the temples of St. Cuthbert and Wee Jas for help. They ignore the other churches, though I've told them several times about their existence.

They also will not go to any of the other nobles or prominent citizens for help, thinking this would offend Vhalantru.

They distrust the town guard, after finding out that some of them are also members of the Last Laugh (don't ask me why they think this is a bad thing and overtly working with the Last Laugh is not). They won't trust information to Captain Skellerang, keeping him out of the loop as much as possible. They think that he will report to his superiors, who are likely the forces trying to bring doom to Cauldron (though I've never suggested this). This is the same reason they don't trust Skylar Krewis. And they think the town guard is incompetent aganist vampires.

The party is running out of positive allies, and I think that introducing a new character now will just make everyone more suspicious.

Spoilers - Beware!!!!

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Ok. My party is playing Drakthar's Way, the second module of the SCAP. The 6 member group averages 3rd level and consists of fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard, ranger, and favored soul (a spontaneous casting cleric type - from Complete Divine).

The party was directionless. Even though they'd found the dungeon and discovered that it was infested with goblins, they still didn't think it was where they needed to go. They went in and killed around 20 goblins on their first foray and mutilated them (cut off their ears) to get a bounty.

Drakthar, the master of the goblins, is a vampiric bugbear. He's interested in looking powerful in front of the other evil denizens of the criminal underworld. He doesn't take this lightly. After the group makes about 3 trips into his dungeon, killing off his minions, he decides he's going to bring hell to them.

He starts begins killing off a few of the party's associates: a barkeeper, an acolyte at a temple, a few others who've given them information. He leaves notes taunting the party and placing the responsibility of these citzens' deaths on their shoulders.

Now the party is terrified. They think they haven't a chance of stopping this vampire. They turn to some influential members of town for aid. Unfortunately, they're trusting some of the worst individuals.

Lord Vhalantru: This noble had agreed to sponsor the party during their search for the missing children in the first adventure (this amounted to him giving the party around 100 gp to outfit themselves so long as they played up his concern of finding the missing children). Of course, Vhalantru has other motivations, and he's involved with an organization that doesn't want this dungeon explored.

The noble had foot the bill for a Raise Dead on the party's ranger less than a week ago. A few days later, that same ranger and the party's fighter (1/3rd of the party) insult a noble guest in Vhalantru's home and try to threaten the guest by claiming that she was involved in an attack on the party (which is partially true, though she didn't know it).

The party is now (1 day later) asking Vhalantru to give them around 1000 gp for the purchase of silvered weapons. Considering that he's been insulted, his past gratitude (of 5000 gp) has been unappreciated, and seeing that the party may now be working against the cause of other noble families, what should Vhalantru do?

The Church of Wee Jas: The party is looking to this temple to send aid in destroying the vampire. Unfortunately, the temple authorities are evil and have reasons to keep the dungeon secure from adventurers. The party is essentially asking their enemies for help to kill other enemies. The party's wizard is a follower of Wee Jas (a neutral aligned necromancer) and in fair standing at the temple. Should the temple try to placate the party, disrupt their activities, etc?

The Last Laugh: An evil theives guild that hires assassins. The party has personally witnessed them attack a LG cleric. The group has offered to assassinate a benefitial townsperson who's part of a good organization. Still, the party thinks they can trust these cutpurses. They are asking them to send thugs, rogues, and meatshields in an all-out raid against the goblins. It's true that they stand to gain much if they can get control of this tunnel from the vampire, which provides secret access to and from the city (great for smuggling).

But since they are evil, the clear course of action would be to side with the party long enough to kill the vampire and his minions, and then wipe out the party to make sure no one alive knows of their secret tunnel. Right?

I'd really like to not have a TPK in any of these situations, as I'd like the campaign to continue.

Your thoughts?

My party has been adventuring in Jzadirune for a couple sessions and have now decided to try to find every single key.

Skimming through the module, I think I noticed 2 "Z" keys. Am I right about this? If so, was one of the letters left out? Which one?

Thanks,
Doc

I have some questions about the availability of Raise Dead and similar spells.

When can Jenya cast Raise Dead (by which scenario - Zenith Trajectory perhaps)? Assuming that the party is in the good graces of St. Cuthbert, will Jenya cast the spell free of charge? What's a reasonable limit to the value of diamonds in the St. Cuthbert vault?

How did you handle this? My party's not there yet, but I think they will be in time.

Thanks.

We started our first session last night. We had to close up our previous campaign and draw up characters, so there was little time spent actually adventuring in the SCAP. But here are the characters we have, all 1st level.

Dwarven rogue
Human fighter
Human necromancer
Elven favored soul
Human cleric
Elven ranger

The party configuration looks pretty "vanilla" compared to some of the groups on here, but there's a certain "old school" charm to it, I think.

I know I'm going to have a lot more questions about SCAP, so I'm just creating a generic thread to post them all in. I did order the hardcover yesterday, so hopefully I'll be getting that within a couple of weeks, by the time my group's scheduled to begin their first session.

First question from me ....

Is there anything to prevent the party (presuming a character can speak gnome) from gaining control of the pulverizer and hammerer automatons they find in Jzadirune? Could a character just say "kill all the little guys in black" and have a walking CR 3 henchman at first level?

First, I'd like to apologize if this topic has been brought up before, but I'm new here. If this has already been discussed, please link me to the appropriate thread.

I'm preparing to start a new campaign with my (mostly) veteran players, and Shackled City looks like a good choice. I have the first two adventures "Life's Bazaar" and "Flood Season" in Dungeon Magazines. I'm planning on ordering the hardcover, but it will have to wait a couple months.

So here's what I want to ask...

Why was Cauldron built in a volcano's crater? I know that this is a dormant volcano, but what rationale did the town's founders find for building on such a hazardous site?

I know this is a cool part of the module, and I'm sure that this feature plays into later adventures of the series, but I know that my players are going to ask "what kind of idiot builds a town in the middle of a volcano?" and "how much longer until it explodes as a part of the plot device?"

I'm even afraid that the party will refuse to help a town that's so blatantly careless.

Has this come up with any other groups? How was it handled? How can I address this with my players?

Thanks,
Doc