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Hi everyone, im currently playing with my witch (level 6 at the moment) and started to see prety good touch debuffs, im wondering if its a good idea to start using them or not.
My stats are
str 10
Dex 12
Con 18
Int 17
Wis 10
Cha 8
Feats: Toughness, Iron will, Imp iron will, craft wondrous item.
(We are not using advanced class guide so no extra hex feat)
I know my stats are a little weird, i builded the witch to use vermin shape II and take advantage from poisons and the dc of webs, but the high con also allow me to touch something, getting hit and live to tell the tale.
What im not sure is whats the best way of doing that... the options are
a) Using an improved familiar with some resistance to deliver the spells, he has prety decent hit points for a standard familiar but loosing him for a witch is a big fat problem.
b) Using spectral hand for the <4, it takes two actions, two spells and the hand may be destroyed before delivering the spell in the aoo.
c) Going myself, risking to get hit (most likely) and bestow him two debuffs at once thanks to "spite" spell. This would be used for bosses most likely doe to the 250gp cost of the spell.
So... regardless of the stat build. what do you think? its worth to do it? its better to just keep the ranged touchs like split venom and enervate?
One last thing, how about using a ring of invisibility to use them? cast the spell, becoming invisible and then deliver the touch, would that result in a aoo if they cant see me? What would be a good improved familiar to use for this (just advanced players guide/ ultimate magic book)?
I know you're already lvl 6, but if you plan on doing Touch Spells, you should pump your Dex higher and get Reach Spell as a Metamagic Feat (around lvl 5-7ish). Then you can start doing all your Touch spells from range (and using your Dex mod for touch attacks rather than your Str mod-- so you can dump Str a bit now if you want). You won't need the high Con to survive as much either, so you can drop that down to buy a higher Dex, if you want.
Anywho, even with your current build, you're still good for using Touch Spells. Touch of Idiocy is great because you can Maximize it and/or Empower it with metamagic rods or the feats themselves. For a lvl 8 slot, you could debuff -9 to Int/Wis/Cha with a Maximized Empowered Touch of Idiocy. If you get this spell as your Perfected Spell at 15, you can do that same debuff as a lvl 4 spell slot. It's an extremely powerful debuff and scales well even in the late game because you can almost always land Touch Spells (it's the easiest AC to hit on most monsters/NPC's). I would personally recommend doing this with MM rods though, Empower and Maximize aren't usable by very many Witch spells.
If you're Invisible, it just means that you can move up to them without being attacked (unless they have See Invisibility or a gnarly Perception). Even if you weren't invisible, Touch Spells are considered Armed attacks, so it would not provoke an AoO.
But seriously, if you want to start using Touch Spells regularly, get Reach Spell and start boosting your Dex with items. For +1 spell slot, you can turn a Touch range spell into a Close range spell, or for a +2 spell slot, you can turn a Touch range spell into a Medium range spell. You can even use Reach spell on any of your other spells as well. It's extremely versatile and only costs you 1 feat slot.
And remember that Touch Spells have infinite durations, so if you miss with your Touch Attack, the spell is not wasted. It's still going to go off the next time you touch the target and it's still considered an armed attack. The only time that a Touch spell goes away is if you touch the target and it discharges, or, if you have the Touch spell still active on you and you cast another spell (then the touch spell is lost). So don't worry about not hitting with a Touch spell, just try again next round.
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Wow, thats such a good idea! Ill do that then and maximize my dex.
Feats would be something like 7 Reach spell, 9 quicken, 11 split hex, 13 empower and 15 spell perfection.
Dont know if take quicken or spell penetration at 9, and if take split hex, spell penetration or something else at 11.
One more thing, if i miss with a ranged touch attack with reach spell it still doesnt waste?
Thank you very much!
Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn (see FAQ below for more information.)
FAQ
When you cast a spell that allows you to make a ranged touch attack (such as scorching ray), and an enemy is within reach, do you provoke two attacks of opportunity?
Yes, you provoke two attacks of opportunity: one for casting the spell and one for making a ranged attack, since these are two separate events. (Note that at spell that fires multiple simultaneous rays, such as scorching ray, only provokes one AoO for making the ranged attack instead of one AoO for each ranged attack. It still provokes for casting the spell.
In the Touch rules, it says that a Ranged Touch spell does have it's charge expended even if it misses. So it's a good idea to prepare the Touch spell as a Reach Spell and a normal spell. If you miss with your Reach spell (this is why you need high dex), you have a backup plan and it stays on you indefinitely until you hit him.
But anywho, in order to get Spell Perfection, you have to have 3 metamagic feats as a prerequisite. I'd recommend Quicken, Heighten, Persistent, Dazing, or Reach (or whatever you want). Any one of those 5 MM's will compliment what you're trying to do really well.
Persistent and Heighten synergize really nicely with Misfortune hex too. If you hex them with Misfortune, they have to roll twice and take the lesser result whenever they make their Saves. So Misfortune someone, then next round, hit them with a Persistent <any spell>. They'll have to roll twice and take the lesser result, and if they do save, then they have to make a 2nd save because of the Persistent spell, thereby having to roll twice again and take the lesser amount again. This essentially forces them to save 4 times on a Persistent Spell if they're already suffering from a Misfortune hex. And of course, if you Heighten the spell on top of Persistent Spell, the DC becomes very tough to beat.
Also, if you're making a Touch or Ranged Touch attack against a target you don't think you can hit very easily, you can use the terrain and combat conditions to your advantage with some cheeky strategy; like using Invisibility to gain a +2 to the attack, or get on high ground, or flank the target, or cause them to be blinded/prone, or something.
A number of factors and conditions can influence an attack roll. Many of these situations grant a bonus or penalty on attack rolls or to a defender’s Armor Class.
Table: Attack Roll Modifiers Attacker is… Melee Ranged
Dazzled –1 –1
Entangled –2 –2
Flanking defender +2 —
Invisible +2 +2
On higher ground +1 +0
Prone –4 —3
Shaken or frightened –2 –2
Squeezing through a space –4 –41 An entangled character also takes a –4 penalty to Dexterity, which may affect his attack roll.
2 The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC.
3 Most ranged weapons can’t be used while the attacker is prone, but you can use a crossbow or shuriken while prone at no penalty.Table: Armor Class Modifiers Defender is… Melee Ranged
Behind cover +4 +4
Blinded –2 –2
Concealed or invisible See Concealment
Cowering –2 –2
Entangled +0 +0
Flat-footed +0 +0
Grappling (but attacker is not) +0 +0
Helpless –4 +0
Kneeling or sitting –2 +2
Pinned –4 +0
Prone –4 +4
Squeezing through a space –4 –4
Stunned –2 –21 The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC.
2 An entangled character takes a –4 penalty to Dexterity.
3 The defender is denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class.
Right now, your Melee Touch is 3BAB + 0Str, so +3 to hit, and your Ranged Touch is 3BAB + 1Dex, so +4 to hit. Most monsters and NPC's will have a Touch AC from 10-15ish. You're going to want to get some items that boost Dex immediately, and start working towards a Belt of Physical Perfection for late game (if you get lvl 17 or 18+)
{. . .}
Persistent and Heighten synergize really nicely with Misfortune hex too. If you hex them with Misfortune, they have to roll twice and take the lesser result whenever they make their Saves. So Misfortune someone, then next round, hit them with a Persistent <any spell>. They'll have to roll twice and take the lesser result, and if they do save, then they have to make a 2nd save because of the Persistent spell, thereby having to roll twice again and take the lesser amount again. This essentially forces them to save 4 times on a Persistent Spell if they're already suffering from a Misfortune hex. And of course, if you Heighten the spell on top of Persistent Spell, the DC becomes very tough to beat.
Is it supposed to work like that? Or should it be like adding Critical depths, where x2 and x2 becomes x3, not x4? (And now I wish I could remember where I saw this . . . .)
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Persistent and Heighten synergize really nicely with Misfortune hex too. If you hex them with Misfortune, they have to roll twice and take the lesser result whenever they make their Saves. So Misfortune someone, then next round, hit them with a Persistent <any spell>. They'll have to roll twice and take the lesser result, and if they do save, then they have to make a 2nd save because of the Persistent spell, thereby having to roll twice again and take the lesser amount again. This essentially forces them to save 4 times on a Persistent Spell if they're already suffering from a Misfortune hex. And of course, if you Heighten the spell on top of Persistent Spell, the DC becomes very tough to beat.Is it supposed to work like that? Or should it be like adding Critical depths, where x2 and x2 becomes x3, not x4? (And now I wish I could remember where I saw this . . . .)
I remember we hashed this out in the Rules forum once and that's where I found that it is actually x4 times.
Misfortune causes you to roll twice and take the lower result whenever you make a saving throw.
Persistent spell makes you save a 2nd time if you make the first save.
So the first save = two rolls from Misfortune, and IF YOU SAVE, then you're supposed to make a 2nd save per Persistent Spell, which = another two rolls from Misfortune.
What touch spells are you planning to use? Unlike Cleric, Witch isn't really lacking in ranged save-or-suck effects, especially since half the hexes do exactly that.
What books are allowed?
would that result in a aoo if they cant see me?
RAW yes, but the chance to hit you is pretty much negligible unless they have abnormal senses (6.25% chance to even check your AC), and I'd presume few GMs to actually play it that way (since the character wouldn't have a reason to make an AoC, so it's very game-y).
Persistent and Heighten synergize really nicely with Misfortune hex too.
Do they, though? Sure, the effects are calculated multiplicatively, but if the target failed the save against Misfortune, they very likely would have failed the save against your spell anyway, so all you're doing by using Misfortune first is wasting a turn. Unless you're using a fort-save spell on a high fort low will save target, in which case you should've just used a will-save spell.
Remember that you can load up spite spells and spell storing armor with touch spells. Frigid touch can interrupt a full attack, vampiric touch can give you extra HP to survive a full attack.
My PFS witch is level 6 now, too, and those melee touch spell debuffs are becoming a major focus for her.
(In my case, she's a white-haired witch and gets a natural attack instead of hexes. As a result, I've had to try to build her to be less squishy than other arcane casters, because she needs to be close to her foes to use her archetype's schtick. But now that she has reach, she has more breathing room.)
Spectral hand is her preferred tactic for any time that she can't--or doesn't want to--get close enough for regular melee attacks. She's unwilling to risk her familiar, for obvious reasons.
Are you allowed to use things from ultimate magic?
If so, then I would suggest taking the hex "prehensile hair". It gives you reach which can be used to deliver touch spells. Unless all you're fighting are large creatures you can stand 10 feet away from an enemy, cast a touch spell and deliver it all without provoking and without having to move.
Unfortunately, while its probably too late to grab an archetype, gravewalker witches can deliver touch spells at range starting at 20ft, which then increases as they level, up to 70 ft at 20th level. This is also from ultimate magic.
Otherwise spectral hand is your best bet. It lasts 1min per level so you shouldn't need to cast it more than once per fight. Also, it's incorporeal so if a creature wants to waste it's Aoo on it they can but it won't actually harm it since their weapons will literally pass through it. The biggest issue with it is that you can't use it to deliver touch attacks with spells higher then 4th level. But that won't be an issue until 9th level when you get 5th level spells. So for the next few levels you'll be able to use it with anything you can cast.
Your stats mean you cannot carry much armor, and don't have a great AC. This means you will likely get hit. As you have a high con and toughness, you can likely take a hit or too.
If you are invisible, then you cannot provoke an AoO unless you face something that can see invisible.
I would start out with the ranged debuffs first. Here are some good debuff spells:
Ray of Enfeeblement is a fort save for half. While it lands better on casters, it does less to affect their attack. On melee brutes, at 6th level, it does 1d6+3 for an average of 6 str penalty, or -3 BAB and -3 damage. It possible will do more, if they cross an encumbrance boundary.
Adhesive Spittle is good against everybody since it bestows the entangled condition, making the target easier to hit and maybe affecting their ability to attack. It does take two standards to use.
Frostbite imparts the fatigued condition, which is a good debuff.
Ill Omen gets better as you level, as it covers more d20 rolls. It is a significant debuff especially if you go just before another caster.
Marid's Mastery is a wondeful spell if you can land it. While a save-or-suck spell, the -4 attack/damage is great against a bruiser.
Mudball is another nice one to land before a party's bruiser attacks, as blinded means a significant bonus to their chances of hitting.
Ray of Sickening is another good status landing spell.
Touch of Blindness is also a good debuff, but can be harder to land due to the need to stay in deadly range.
Note: these are all 1st level spells from many books, so you may not get them with your book limitation.
For familiars, I give the standard advice:
If you use the familiar to attack, the GM will target it as appropriate. If it never attacks, the GM likely won't target it.
For improved familiars, anything that can use wands are quite useful. Imagine you are hurt, and you familiar uses a wand of cure on you. It is not attacking so is less likely to get attacked. Be sure to pump UMD since the familiar likely has low charisma and no class skill. [Exception: fairy dragons count as sorcerers, so can use wands of their spells.]
/cevah
Adhesive Spittle and especially Ill Omen get a LOT better when you can Quicken them (Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quicken is good if you don't need to hold anything but that and your spell components pouch, or if you have a prehensile tail, or extra limbs such as from Monstrous Physique).